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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, there's just this consistent theme that plays out as

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Speaker 2: we raise our kids, and it all revolves around this

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Speaker 2: idea of us telling our.

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Speaker 3: Kids what to do well and their deep need for autonomy.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: Hello. This is doctor Justin Coulson, the founder of Happy

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Speaker 2: Families dot com, dot you and the host, a co

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Speaker 2: host andterning expert of Channel Lin's hit TV show Parental Guidance.

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Speaker 2: I'm here today with my wife and mum to our

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Speaker 2: six children, Kylie, missus Happy Families. Who's just had a

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Speaker 2: haircut and it's feeling a little bit suave today, aren't you.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't it feel good when the hairdresser makes your hair

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Speaker 2: look flash, does his thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I just need a hairdresser in my pocket because

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Speaker 3: I can never get it to look like it does.

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Speaker 2: Say no, that's the worst. It's so frustrating.

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Speaker 3: We wait ten weeks in between my haircut.

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Speaker 2: I know it's a long wait, but you're feeling good

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Speaker 2: and that's the main thing today. We're not going to

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Speaker 2: talk about here, though, we are going to talk about

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Speaker 2: how to help families who are struggling. We've got a

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Speaker 2: question from a listener who's got a five year old

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Speaker 2: who is driving them insane. But before we get there,

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Speaker 2: just a really quick thank you. I want to share

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Speaker 2: a huge thank you to our Happy Families members. Everything

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Speaker 2: that we do here at Happy Families, especially on this podcast,

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Speaker 2: and on our social channels and at the website at

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Speaker 2: Happy Families dot com dot au, all those things are

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Speaker 2: funded by our members. Like we literally, it takes resources,

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Speaker 2: it takes time, it takes effort, it takes all it

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Speaker 2: takes money, and it's our members who fund that. So

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Speaker 2: I just wanted to do a quick shout out to

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Speaker 2: our Happy Families members. If you are a Happy Families member,

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Speaker 2: thank you for being part of our community. We really

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Speaker 2: appreciate it so much. And if you're not, we hope

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Speaker 2: that you'll consider becoming a Happy Famili's member today. It's

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Speaker 2: just not possible for us to do this work and

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Speaker 2: run this podcast and offer all these resources at no

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Speaker 2: cost without that support. So it's because of our Happy

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Speaker 2: Family's members that you're hearing the podcast. If you would

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Speaker 2: like to become a Happy Family's member, head to Happy

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Speaker 2: Families dot com dot you click on the members link

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Speaker 2: to sign up for a monthly membership. It's eighteen bucks

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Speaker 2: a month to make your family happier. Value eighteen dollars

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Speaker 2: a month, and it makes your family happier and you

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Speaker 2: get loads of support from us to do that. Or

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Speaker 2: you can save by signing up for an annual subscription.

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Speaker 2: You get two months free, it's one hundred and eighty

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Speaker 2: bucks for the entire year. You support the work that

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Speaker 2: we do, you get full access to the membership with

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Speaker 2: no paywalk, and you support your family. So please consider

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Speaker 2: becoming a member today. So Kylie, with my big thanks

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Speaker 2: to our members out of the way, let's talk about

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Speaker 2: this challenge that a mum, Alisha is having when it

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Speaker 2: comes to raising her five year old daughter.

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Speaker 3: I've been listening to your podcast for about twelve months

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Speaker 3: or so and find them really helpful and practical. Thank

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Speaker 3: you the catalyst from my five year old daughter. Mummy,

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Speaker 3: You always what to do that appeared with getting the

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Speaker 3: smallest task done, getting dressed, having a bath, getting out

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Speaker 3: of the bath, etc. Are becoming harder and harder, to

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Speaker 3: the point where over the past couple of weeks there

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Speaker 3: has been more yelling, tears, anger from her and me

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Speaker 3: in our household than I would like. It seems like

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Speaker 3: any request results in her reacting really emotionally and stomping

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Speaker 3: off to her room. This is regardless of how we

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Speaker 3: ask it, kindly, more direct, giving her more time, etc.

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Speaker 3: Now I don't feel like I'm always just telling her

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Speaker 3: what to do, but I guess there are just elements

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Speaker 3: of the day that need to happen and she is

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Speaker 3: feeling like I am. Could this be why she's reacting

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Speaker 3: so much to simple questions and task The last part

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Speaker 3: of this is I'm kind of at my wits end

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Speaker 3: and I feel like I'm just threatening her now with

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Speaker 3: things so she'll comply because I'm so tired and over it.

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Speaker 3: But that's not how I want to parent, and I

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Speaker 3: know it won't get me the outcome or the relationship

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Speaker 3: I want with my daughter. Please help.

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Speaker 2: Being a parent is taxing, isn't it. It's so tiring,

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Speaker 2: and it's one of those things where we we constantly

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Speaker 2: fret and worry, and I really appreciate that people trust

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Speaker 2: us with their questions. Let's have a conversation about this.

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Speaker 2: I love, first of all, this line, Mummy, you always

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Speaker 2: tell me what to do. There will be a version

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Speaker 2: of that at every age of raising a child, Like

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Speaker 2: when they're two or three, it's you can't tell me

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Speaker 2: what to do. You're not the boss of me. When

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Speaker 2: they're five, you always tell me what to do. By

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Speaker 2: the time they become teenagers, it's stop telling me what

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Speaker 2: to do. But there's just this consistent theme that plays

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Speaker 2: out as we raise our kids, and it all revolves

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Speaker 2: around this idea of us telling our kids what to do.

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Speaker 3: Well and their deep need for autonomy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, huge. So a couple of developmental things that

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Speaker 2: we need to talk about. First off, from a developmental

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Speaker 2: point of view, if you are a Happy Famili's member,

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Speaker 2: you hopefully have already had access to and watched the

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Speaker 2: webinar Little People, Big Feelings. If you're dealing with kids

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Speaker 2: whore under about the age of five or six, my

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Speaker 2: strong recommendation is that you get access to that. If

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Speaker 2: you're not already a Happy Family's member, you can buy

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Speaker 2: it in the store, but become a member and you

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Speaker 2: get it for half price, plus access to everything as well,

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Speaker 2: and you get to support the work that we're doing.

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Speaker 2: But Little People Big Feelings, there's one element of that

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Speaker 2: that I talk about. It's this thing called theory of mind,

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Speaker 2: and it explains so much of what's going on with

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Speaker 2: Alisha's five year old daughter. And theory of mine is

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Speaker 2: basically you know that thing, Kylie, where let's say you

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Speaker 2: and I are having a conversation, We're sitting on the

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Speaker 2: front porch, We're enjoying the quiet afternoon. My phone rings,

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Speaker 2: so I jump up and say, I'll be right back, Honey,

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Speaker 2: I've just got to take this court. It's a really

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Speaker 2: important Why do I promise I'll be back in a

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Speaker 2: sec and I walk out into the yard and start chatting.

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Speaker 2: Because you're such a practical joker, you decide that while

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Speaker 2: I'm on the phone, you're going to grab my drink

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Speaker 2: and move it from where I left it on the

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Speaker 2: table and go and put it inside on the dining

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Speaker 2: table because I don't know, you just want to play

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Speaker 2: a joke on me. Now, when I come back from

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Speaker 2: my conversation with this person on the phone, where will

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Speaker 2: I look for my drink.

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Speaker 3: On the table where you left it?

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Speaker 2: Obviously, any adult that I asked that question of looks

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Speaker 2: at me like I'm a weirdo, Like as if you'd

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Speaker 2: asked that question. But if you ask a child who's

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Speaker 2: under about the age of five, where I would look.

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Speaker 3: For the drink, they'll tell you it's where they put it.

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Speaker 2: That's right. They'll say, well, it's on the table, and

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Speaker 2: that's where I'm going to look for it at the

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Speaker 2: table inside because the child knows that that's where it is,

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Speaker 2: and therefore the child thinks that everybody knows what's going

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Speaker 2: on in their mind. They don't have a theory of mind.

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Speaker 2: I guess it's a fancy psychological way of saying the

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Speaker 2: ability to take the perspective of another person recognize that

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Speaker 2: their world and what's happening in the world of their

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Speaker 2: mind is different to what's happening in the world of

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Speaker 2: my mind. And it helps to explain a whole lot

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Speaker 2: of why our kids at that age are struggling with

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Speaker 2: these big emotions, these big tantrums. Everything makes sense and

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Speaker 2: suddenly it doesn't. I'm watching my TV show, I'm playing

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Speaker 2: with my dolls on my lego, or I'm riding my bike.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing this thing that's important to me. I'm painting,

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Speaker 2: or I'm drawing, or I'm reading, And now the adult

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Speaker 2: in my life has come in and told me that

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Speaker 2: I have to put my shoes on and get in

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Speaker 2: the car, souse, I have to go to school. I

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Speaker 2: don't want to do that. And it's kind of an

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Speaker 2: egocentrism thing where they just don't get that you've got

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Speaker 2: a life to live. I remember, this is a terribly

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Speaker 2: embarrassing thing to share. But I remember as a teenager

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Speaker 2: I blew up at my mum one time because she

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Speaker 2: wouldn't let me do do something that was really important

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Speaker 2: to me. And as a fourteen year old, full of

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Speaker 2: righteous indignation, I screamed from the clothes line to the laundry,

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Speaker 2: which is where mum was. I was the clothes line,

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Speaker 2: she was the laundry, and I screamed, I've got a

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Speaker 2: life too. You know, I've got things that are important

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Speaker 2: to me. You don't understand, you don't get how important

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Speaker 2: these things are. And I really sort of got stuck

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Speaker 2: into her. And I still remember Mum standing at that

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Speaker 2: laundry and saying, Oh, you've got a life. You have

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Speaker 2: a life. Here's my mum. She's running three businesses, she's

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Speaker 2: raising six children, two sets of twins. Her life is

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Speaker 2: so full, and I'm having this little selfish me me

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Speaker 2: me moment because I didn't. I was too egocentric. My

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Speaker 2: theory of mind as an adolescent boy was not well developed.

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Speaker 2: But it's even less well developed when our kids four

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Speaker 2: and five and three. So that's the first big developmental

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Speaker 2: reality that we're dealing with that helps to explain why

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Speaker 2: we've got this kiddo who's just losing it. The second one,

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Speaker 2: and it's so huge you actually started us off with it,

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Speaker 2: is this basic need for autonomy.

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Speaker 3: Our kids want to believe that they have controlled They.

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Speaker 2: I just want to believe. They need to actually believe

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Speaker 2: they need to actually have some control. They really really do. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean part of its perspective and perception, but you're right,

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Speaker 2: they've got to have that sense of autonomy. You know.

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Speaker 3: When our youngest came along, it wasn't too far into

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Speaker 3: her development that I realized very quickly that she, of

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Speaker 3: all of our children, needed that sense of autonomy. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and I had to learn a different way of parenting

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Speaker 3: with her. And as she's grown, the older kids have

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Speaker 3: actually from time to time accused me of letting her

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Speaker 3: get away with everything because they recognize that I do

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Speaker 3: things very differently with her. The challenge I have is

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Speaker 3: if I don't do things differently with her, all hell

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Speaker 3: breaks loose, probably a little bit like this, mum.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So the technical term for all hell breaks loose

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Speaker 2: is reactants. It's called psychological reactors. All hell breaks loose

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Speaker 2: makes a little more sense though, right. It's just massive

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Speaker 2: blow ups and massive reactivity over everything. Yeah, everything.

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Speaker 3: And so for me, it was coming up with ways

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Speaker 3: that I could actually achieve the outcome that needed to

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Speaker 3: happen in the moment, but in a way that allowed

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Speaker 3: Emily to feel like she actually was making the choice

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Speaker 3: for herself. So I guess a concrete example of that

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Speaker 3: is we need to leave a house.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I think this is what Alisha's saying, like,

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Speaker 2: sometimes we do have to be in places. There are

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Speaker 2: things that have to be done getting ready for the

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Speaker 2: day or going to bed or eating dinner, like stuff

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Speaker 2: has to happen.

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Speaker 3: And so with Emily, I needed to give her more

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Speaker 3: lead time so that she understood that something was happening.

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Speaker 3: So it takes a little bit more I guess mental effort, yeah,

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Speaker 3: as a parent to prepare a child in that situation,

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Speaker 3: Because for me, I know what needs to happen, and

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Speaker 3: so I busy myself, and then when the time comes,

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Speaker 3: I can get up and I can leave.

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Speaker 2: This is so important I need to interrupt you on

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Speaker 2: what you've said. There are three things that I have

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Speaker 2: to extract from what you've said before we actually get

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Speaker 2: to the solution. You're talking about the importance of transitions,

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Speaker 2: but as part of that, you're talking about how in

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Speaker 2: your mind it's so crystal clear, and the fact that

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Speaker 2: you've put a chart on the door that says these

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Speaker 2: four or five things have to happen. You think, as

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Speaker 2: an adult that is going to be crystal clear in

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Speaker 2: the minds of the child, But it's not. They don't

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Speaker 2: perceive time the same way. They don't perceive priorities and

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Speaker 2: agendas the same way. So while it's so clear for you,

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Speaker 2: it is not for them. No matter how many times

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Speaker 2: you explain it to them. It takes them a long

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Speaker 2: time to figure this out. Their brains work differently. You

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Speaker 2: think about how long it takes learn how to tie

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Speaker 2: their shoelacers or brush their teeth or write their name.

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Speaker 2: To go through the complicated process of getting ready and

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Speaker 2: getting out the door in the morning, it's actually a

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Speaker 2: kind of a big deal. So Number one, you've got

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Speaker 2: the transition. Number two, you've got that theory of mind.

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Speaker 2: And number three you didn't use this word, but I

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Speaker 2: think that it's the right word to use. There's got

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Speaker 2: to be margin, Like there has to be a sense

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Speaker 2: that this is not rushed, because the more rush there is,

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Speaker 2: the more pressure there is, the more hurry up there

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Speaker 2: is in the less l o vee there is, because

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Speaker 2: the less tim.

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Speaker 3: Well they're, the less autonomy they feel they have.

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Speaker 2: That's right, because we're just we're rushing them and hurrying the.

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Speaker 3: Most creates resistance. They feel forced into doing something that

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Speaker 3: they don't actually want to do. I don't want to

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Speaker 3: leave the house. Yeah, yeah, this is not on my

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Speaker 3: race nine, even as a nine year old, I don't

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Speaker 3: want She doesn't want to go on holidays. Yeah, like

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Speaker 3: I don't want to leave the house. I'm actually quite

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Speaker 3: happy here when we go on holidays. We have a

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Speaker 3: lot of fun together. But she misses her bit, she

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Speaker 3: misses her animals, she misses her toys. There's so much

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Speaker 3: to you know, kind of take in, and so from

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Speaker 3: her perspective, we're just messing everything up.

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Speaker 2: Well, from a kid's perspective, the world, Actually I'm sounding

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Speaker 2: really crassy. But what really sucks because they don't get

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Speaker 2: to be in the moment enough. They don't get to play,

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Speaker 2: they don't get to explore, they don't get to be kids.

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Speaker 2: And you can hear it again in Alisha's email. She's saying,

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Speaker 2: I want to be the parent who builds that relationship

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Speaker 2: and lets her have that childhood. That's what she's saying.

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Speaker 2: But life is getting in the way. Life is not

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Speaker 2: fair when it comes to kids. Creating that margin, stepping

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Speaker 2: through the agenda bit by working on transitions. Those three

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Speaker 2: things that you've already mentioned. I just think they're so

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Speaker 2: so important and it helps us to be gentle even

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Speaker 2: when an agenda is necessary. So let's get really concrete,

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Speaker 2: like this is the whole thing. Where we talk about kids,

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Speaker 2: we say, oh, you know, they're five years old going

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Speaker 2: on twenty five. Because they want their autonomy. They want

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Speaker 2: to make their own decisions. It's natural and healthy. In fact,

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Speaker 2: if your child didn't want to, I might actually be

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Speaker 2: a little bit worried about that. Well, they're also.

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Speaker 3: Really good at articulating what they want. Yes, as we

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Speaker 3: get older, we actually get less inclined to articulate the

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Speaker 3: things that we need and want in our lives. But

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Speaker 3: as young kids, we're really good at saying, actually, I

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Speaker 3: don't want to do that, right, you know, And as

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Speaker 3: parents we kind of go hang on a sec I'm

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Speaker 3: the adult in the room, and I should be able

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Speaker 3: to make the decisions around here. But as children, they're

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Speaker 3: just they're so good at telling you what they need

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Speaker 3: and what they want.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they just don't often do it in a way

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Speaker 2: that we want to hear it. They're going to be

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Speaker 2: a bit clumsy, to say the least, sometimes even worse.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about one or two really simple strategies

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Speaker 2: that we've employed with our own kids and see if

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Speaker 2: we can get really concrete, really practical for Alesia.

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Speaker 3: So the first thing is actually after the fact, when

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Speaker 3: we have these challenging days. One of the best things

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Speaker 3: that I found to work with Emily was to sit

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Speaker 3: down with her at the end of the day once

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Speaker 3: things were cars.

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Speaker 2: I love her saying was like past tens like you

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Speaker 2: mean just three days ago, right.

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Speaker 3: When things are calm, I can actually sit there and

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Speaker 3: we can have these amazing moments of snuggles and cuddles

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Speaker 3: and just really beautiful connection time. And in that moment

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Speaker 3: I can talk to her about how today was a

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Speaker 3: little bit rough and things didn't go the way that

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Speaker 3: I wanted them to and we got a little bit

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Speaker 3: cranky at you and you got to really upset. Can

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Speaker 3: you tell me a bit more about that? And so

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Speaker 3: we explore how it felt for her and what it

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Speaker 3: was that upset her or what I did that I

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Speaker 3: wish I could have changed, And in that process we

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Speaker 3: can then talk about the things that we'd like to

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Speaker 3: do next time. And I'm going to have to have

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Speaker 3: that conversation with her another hundred times or more a thousand.

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Speaker 2: Give people, hope, give people.

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Speaker 3: But the reality is, if my goal is to build

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Speaker 3: a relationship with her, then it's going to be in

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Speaker 3: those moments that the relationship is going to build. And

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Speaker 3: as I do that moments of connection. Yeah, as I

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Speaker 3: have those moments of connection, I continue to help her

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Speaker 3: to grow and allow her then the opportunity to utilize

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Speaker 3: her autonomy more.

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Speaker 2: Something else that I love that I've learned from you.

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Speaker 2: I know that I'm the pairing expert, and I've actually

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Speaker 2: talked about the stuff in workshops, but I had never

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Speaker 2: done it. You actually have, and that is that if

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Speaker 2: she doesn't want to get ready. There are days where

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Speaker 2: you've said, all right, well, let's just jump in the

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Speaker 2: car and we'll go for a drive, and I'll bring

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Speaker 2: this stuff and we'll see how you're feeling when we

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Speaker 2: get there. And so you've many times put her in

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Speaker 2: the car in her pajamas with crazy hair and thrown

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Speaker 2: some food in that is suitable for breakfast that she

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Speaker 2: can eat while you're driving, and when you get to school,

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Speaker 2: suddenly she's like, yeah, I can't get out of the

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Speaker 2: car until I've got my uniform on, And so you

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Speaker 2: will dress her in the school car park and get

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Speaker 2: her off to school that way. It's not ideal, like

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Speaker 2: it's not what we would say is the perfect picture

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Speaker 2: of what a morning should look like, but actually it

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Speaker 2: is ideal from the point of view that she's there,

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Speaker 2: she's happy to be there, and there's been a stress

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Speaker 2: free process. It made it happen.

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Speaker 3: In reality, some of those mornings feel awful. She's really upset.

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Speaker 3: But the way that we get through those challenges by

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Speaker 3: not catching her emotion. So she'll often be screaming at

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Speaker 3: me and tell me she doesn't want to leave the

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Speaker 3: house and she definitely doesn't want to go to school.

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Speaker 3: And my response to her is, I know I wish

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Speaker 3: you could stay home, but right now I have to

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Speaker 3: get your big sisters to school, So could you please

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Speaker 3: get in the car in your pajamas and we'll take

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Speaker 3: your sisters to school. So I take out the pressure

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Speaker 3: that she's feeling to actually go to school, and in

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Speaker 3: the process of doing that, it allows her time because

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Speaker 3: that's what she needs. She just needs time. So she

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Speaker 3: gets into the car with her favorite book and she'll

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Speaker 3: read for five or ten minutes. Me and the girls

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Speaker 3: will either be having a conversation, listening to the morning podcast,

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Speaker 3: or putting some high energy music on to get us

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Speaker 3: all vibed for the day, And in that process it

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Speaker 3: allows her the time to calm down, to regulate herself,

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Speaker 3: and inevitably, more times than not, we actually get to

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Speaker 3: school and she's fully dressed and ready to go, and

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Speaker 3: there isn't even an acknowledgment that it's been a hard morning.

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Speaker 3: She gives me a kiss and a cuddle and says,

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Speaker 3: I'll see you this afternoon.

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Speaker 2: Month we need to wrap this up, but I think

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Speaker 2: it's probably worth highlighting one more thing, and I want

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Speaker 2: to go back to that conversation. The explore, explain in

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Speaker 2: power conversation when we're talking with our child about out

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Speaker 2: of the moment, about what happened this morning, what happened yesterday,

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Speaker 2: or what happened on the other day. Let's it's the

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Speaker 2: weekend and we're having the conversation now. I think there's

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Speaker 2: also tremendous value in saying this doesn't happen all the time.

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Speaker 2: They would only happen sometimes. Can you think of the

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Speaker 2: times where we get it right? Like you want to

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Speaker 2: celebrate the successes. You want to share the stories where

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Speaker 2: everything worked really well yesterday or the day before, because

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Speaker 2: and unpack why. As the kids recognize that they are

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Speaker 2: confident and capable, as they recognize that they have some

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Speaker 2: say in how this is all going to work out,

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Speaker 2: they tend to go I think a lot better. I

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Speaker 2: just think that they tend to go a lot better.

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Speaker 3: I had this really wonderful conversation with my parents the

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Speaker 3: other week. They had the children for a few days,

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Speaker 3: and they obviously parent different to us and have really

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Speaker 3: really struggled to allow Emily the autonomy that we strive

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Speaker 3: to give her, and as a result, it can be

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Speaker 3: really really challenging. And so I'm sure my parents would

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Speaker 3: probably say there have been times where they've actually dreaded

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Speaker 3: having to look after Emily for any extended period of

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Speaker 3: time because her emotions are big. So this last week

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Speaker 3: they had her for a few days over the holidays,

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Speaker 3: and both Mum and dad came to me independently at

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Speaker 3: different times of the conversation to just tell me what

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Speaker 3: a delight it was to have her there. Part of

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Speaker 3: that reality is developmental. Emily's nine now, she's not five

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Speaker 3: or six, and she is getting this. But secondly, they

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Speaker 3: are learning the art of supporting her autonomy and it

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Speaker 3: is making such a difference to not only Emily, but

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Speaker 3: the relationship that she now has with her grandparents.

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Speaker 2: Well, we really hope Elisha, that this has been helpful.

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Speaker 2: Once again, a huge thank you to our Happy Family's

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Speaker 2: members who support the podcast and all the work that

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Speaker 2: we do. If you're not a member, please check it

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Speaker 2: out at Happy families dot com dot au. The Happy

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Speaker 2: Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 2: Craig Bruce is our executive producer and for more information

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Speaker 2: about making your family happier and becoming a Happy Families

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Speaker 2: Men today, head to Happy Families dot com dot au,