WEBVTT - YOU CANT ASK THAT - AND THEN THEY DID! 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.360 Welcome back to TV Reload. My name's Benjamin Norris, and 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:06.080 on this podcast I'll be going behind the scenes with 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:09.520 the biggest players in television. I want to thank everyone 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:12.840 for your support of this podcast. Please press subscribe to 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:15.640 TV Reload if you are a first timer, and for 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:18.360 those of you who are back, please share this episode 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:21.799 so we can extend to this little community of TV enthusiasts. 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:24.400 Last week I had a week off as I was 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:27.360 going to cover Dancing with the Stars, but that interview 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:29.760 did fall over at the last minute, as these things 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:32.640 tend to happen. But don't worry. There's plenty more big 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:34.720 names and shows to cover in the next few weeks. 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:37.800 I even have Sonya Kruge swinging by to talk Big 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:40.400 Brother twenty twenty one, and as it can tell, I'm 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:44.519 stupidly excited for that. Anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:47.639 as I usually do. This week's podcast, I have an 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:51.080 experienced producer, Kirk Docker, who has worked on You Can't 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:54.520 Ask That right from its conception? Can you believe? It's 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:57.960 up to series six? Still going strong. It's one of 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:01.320 my favorite shows on the ABC and it's basic premise 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:04.800 of asking simple but sometimes confronting questions to a collected 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:09.080 audience who share the same liaved experience is genius. This 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:11.480 show is back on Monday, the twenty eighth of April, 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:14.679 so stick that in your TV guide because you want 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:18.039 to miss some of the most fantastic and fascinating topics 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:22.480 which will leave you thinking you can't ask that. Yes, 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:24.280 I was on an episode if you can't ask that 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:27.800 a few years ago, But unlike other episodes of this podcast, 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:29.880 I won't be getting bogged down in that as there's 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:33.120 way too many other elements to unpack. A small detail 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:36.120 to add is Kirk is taken so upfront. I want 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:39.040 to tell you that, as he is intelligent and intoxicating, 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:41.040 but I want to cut your wall off at that point, 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:43.480 as I do often get people asking me if my 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:47.120 guests are in a relationship, which is cute but sometimes creepy. 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:49.760 If you listen carefully in the background, I'm sure you 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:52.520 can hear his girlfriend making cups of tea at one point, 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:56.160 so back off and don't be weird. Anyway, Let's get 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:59.480 started with this episode as we find out some juicy 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:02.040 details behind the scenes. If you can't ask that with 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:03.960 today's guest, Kirk docker. 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:08.480 Generally it's watch all the rushes, pull the best bits out, 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:11.000 and then start weaving each question together. 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:15.000 How could you be such a pig? Every single season? 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:17.079 When I bump into people who watch the show, they 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:19.280 always have a different episode that was their favorite. 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:21.160 When did you realize you were transgender? 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:25.240 Hopefully you come away having as Andrew Denton used to say, 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:25.919 fuck me moment? 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:27.960 Have you ever been abused? Because you're amorsdim. 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:30.560 We wouldn't keep making it if we thought that we 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:31.760 were going to make a lesser product. 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:34.520 So yes, we can still have six. They didn't cut 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:35.080 off my dick. 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:37.840 I think the challenge at the moment is so much 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:39.760 content and it's really really. 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:40.400 Hard to get cut through. 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:41.679 How are you, Maja? 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:46.239 You're well, I'm absolutely fantastic. We've just delivered the newest 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:48.400 season of you can ask that season six, and now 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:50.240 I get to talk to you, which is very nice. 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:52.280 What point of the year, because you've now up to 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:54.760 series six, I mean, this show started I think it 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:57.240 was the third of August in twenty sixteen, you know, 0:02:57.360 --> 0:02:59.880 and so annually you put the show together. What point 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:01.680 do you start looking forward to going back to that 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:03.280 editing process. 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:07.360 The editing process is grueling, and that's half our job 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:10.079 is editing it. If you imagine that there's eight episodes 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:14.120 per season, eight people per episode, so sixty four people. 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:16.760 Each of those people I interview for. 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:17.639 About two hours. 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:20.600 Some are in pairs, so those pairs we interview longer, 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:23.880 maybe up to three hours. So each episode has about 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:27.040 fifteen to sixteen hours of content that we crunch down 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:30.359 into thirty minutes. So it is grueling process, and each 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:33.480 of those episodes we spend about three weeks on in 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:35.880 the offline, so that's the process of watching all the 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:39.200 rushes cutting it down. The way that we edit is 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:43.000 a process of elimination more so than building. So we 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:46.040 might build an hour or an hour fifteen of the 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:49.240 show where all the different questions are answered, and then 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:51.960 from there we trim, trim, trim, trim, and crunch it 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.240 right down. So that part is the hard bit because 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:59.000 you're cutting out amazing things that people have said time 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:00.480 and time and time and time again. So there's a 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:02.560 lot of arguments about what gets to stay in and 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:06.240 what goes. So when you hand the whole project in, 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:08.800 for me, it feels like handing a giant Uni assignment. 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:10.800 That's how I sort of feel about it. You're handed in, 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:13.720 it's like dropping it off, and there's this huge sih 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:15.760 relief that this thing is being handed in and you're 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:19.160 happy with it. And not only do we deliver eight episodes, 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:24.479 but each episode has another three or so social media clips, 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:27.200 and some of those are uncut or completely new pieces 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:29.719 of content, So you're creating all this extra content as well, 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:32.440 which is totally normal in this day and age. You're 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:35.000 cutting a trailer, you're making a press kit, you're doing 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:37.719 all these extra things. So when all that gets handed in, 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:40.800 it's a huge syh relief. But then you're also when 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:42.920 it goes to where you're sort of back on again 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:46.680 because you're paying attention to what people are saying, to 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:49.719 how it's being received, you're doing some press, so you 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:51.880 get a little break till the show then goes to 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:54.080 where then once it's sort of finished, going to where 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:55.640 we have a bit of time off, but you're always 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:59.320 ticking over new ideas, new ideas of what new topics 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:02.520 could be and just letting them ges state is that 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:05.640 the word when you're letting it, letting something just sort 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:08.400 of percolate in your mind, what could be an interesting 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:10.560 idea for next season, and what does that mix of 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:12.799 episodes look like, because it's all about the mix. 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:15.320 Well, I think, you know, the concept is quite simple 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:17.159 of the show. You know, each episode you're asking a 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:20.480 controversial question that's been sourced from the public. And I 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:23.359 really just remember that first series coming out. It was 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:26.440 so groundbreaking. I mean, you were talking about transgender people, 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:29.800 sex workers, Muslim and I think it was just so 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:33.440 powerful as that became this show that we could go 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:36.800 back to every year, but it never escaped me the 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:39.599 amount of work that goes into that would have to 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.599 go into this show, and I think that it's still 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:45.920 so enjoyable to watch, Like the reward at the end 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:49.200 of delivering that show must feel amazing, because you know, 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:51.120 we're six series in and I'm lucky enough to see 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:53.440 the first two episodes of the new one, and it's 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:56.719 just as potent, it's just as relevant. It's actually better, 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:59.520 Like I think there's first two episodes of the new 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:03.000 series to me felt like the evolution of your storytelling 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:05.640 of this series is so powerful now, Like it's even 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:09.640 more muscular, it's even more taking on a journey while 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:13.080 still feeling like you're listening to someone naturally unravel something. 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:15.520 Look definitely, I think, oh, thank you, that's a really 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:18.080 nice commalent to say that it's better. We wouldn't keep 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:19.320 making it if we thought that we were going. 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:21.640 To make a lesser product. So we're trying to raise 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:22.080 the bar. 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:24.080 Each year in terms of the topics or conversations that 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:27.000 we're having, because it is about conversations that you're trying 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:27.240 to have. 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:28.279 And the other thing you. 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:30.480 Said, which is actually really important, is it looks simple, 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:32.599 and that's what we want. We want the show to 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:35.320 feel and look simple. We don't want to be something 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:38.960 that is too hard to digest. We want how the 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:41.320 answers all flow together. We want it to be really 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:44.960 intuitive and easy and natural. And that's where in the 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:47.400 editing process it takes a lot of work because every 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:50.120 answer that someone says links to the next answer, which 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:52.400 links to the next answer, which links to the next answer. 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:54.080 And the way that we think about in the edit 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:56.520 is that here's eight voices who are very different from 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.560 each other, even though they have the same label, say lesbians, 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:02.800 but they have all these different answers. Yet in the 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:06.120 edit it's almost like they have this one voice, this 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:08.920 one voice which adds to each other, builds off each other, 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:11.840 contradicts each other at times, agrees with each other, are 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:14.560 surprised by each other, and so we try and build 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:17.840 this sort of one long voice that weave through the 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:20.680 whole episode, which sort of darts off in all different directions. 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:24.240 This season, what allows us to do, being six seasons 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:27.600 in is actually start touching on topics that we probably 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:29.960 never would have thought about doing in the first couple 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:33.000 of seasons and try and have conversations which are a 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:35.120 little bit different. And for me this season and for 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:37.520 the team, we were very, very interested in the relationship. 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:41.480 We're interested in, I suppose how dos coronavirus effect us 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:44.640 in some respects. So we didn't do an episode on coronavirus, 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:46.640 but we did do an episode, for example, on adult 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:50.320 virgins because we were reflecting, especially because we're making the 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:53.040 show during coronavirus, this sort of lack of contact, this 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:56.360 lack of intimacy, and you often heard, especially for example, 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:58.760 over in Perth, if you didn't live with your partner, 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:01.200 you weren't allowed to visit your and so there was 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:05.160 all these conversations around intimacy and maybe lack thereof, And 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:08.200 so we thought, imagine if you've never experienced intimacy in 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:10.120 that sense. And then so that took us down this 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:12.000 that was the original question that took us down the 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:16.160 path of exploring adult virgins. The first episode is cheaters 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:20.360 or Infidelity. And look, I'm not ashamed to say that 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:22.320 I was listening to a lot of Esther Peerrell and 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:25.840 was very inspired by her. And she's a if people 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:29.960 don't know Esther Perell, she's an accounts I suppose, a 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:32.480 marriage psychologist. She's written a whole lot of stuff on 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:36.080 the relationship, and she has a fantastic podcast where she 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:41.640 basically broadcasts her counseling sessions with couples of all different persuasions. 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:45.440 And so I was very inspired by her thought that 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:49.080 ninety percent of us have experienced cheating in some way, 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:51.520 shape or form, whether that's our parents, whether that's something 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:53.800 that we've experienced where it's someone close to us, but 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:56.360 we've all been affected by it. Yet it's a conversation 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:59.480 that we can't have. It's so black and white that 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:03.720 this was wrong, that person was right, let's ostracize that person. 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:07.400 And yet the reasons that people cheat are so complex 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:10.160 and varied and nuanced that we thought that was a 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:12.640 really really important space to have a conversation. 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:17.400 A happy person doesn't cheat unless you've got issues. 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:21.920 And even our producers felt awkward about doing this. Hey, 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:24.320 we can't give these people a voice. So when you 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:26.560 get that reaction right at the start, you go, Okay, 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:29.160 that feels like a group that needs to be explored. 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:31.040 You know, that feels like a group that people hate. 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:31.880 And how can we. 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:34.480 Humanize a group of people that, like I said, if 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.000 ninety percent of us have experienced it, they're all people 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:38.800 in our lives, they're people all around us that were 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:42.200 being part of that group. So season six allows us 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:44.480 to tackle topics like that that we probably never would 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:47.920 have done early on. I know that I'm going to 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:49.560 go to the questions that will make me like my 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:50.520 eyes back in my head. 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:52.120 How do the people want to know? 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.520 I don't think I should answer that question. I love 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:58.360 talking about that stuff. Oh my gosh, Yeah this is 0:09:58.360 --> 0:09:58.960 a good story. 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:01.240 Oh yeah. 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:06.200 On this surface, everybody thought that was all well in 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:09.400 my world, but it wasn't. Every night I would basically cry. 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:11.240 I knew something was wrong with me. 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:12.200 I didn't know what it was. 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:13.960 Yeah, I felt pretty defeated. 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:16.320 Well, you haven't got anywhere yet you don't know the 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:16.880 worst of it. 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:19.720 One thing that I want to go back to well 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:22.880 before we get more into this new series is how 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:25.040 did this whole concept come about? You know, how did 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:26.040 it come to life? 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:29.960 It originally began with myself and Aaron Smith, and Aaron's 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:34.280 a director and cinematographer, and Aaron and I worked on 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:39.120 Hungry Beast together, which was a show that happened in 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:41.800 two thousand and nine to twenty eleven. We did three 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:44.560 seasons of it, and the idea was Andrew Denton had 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:47.320 a production company called Sopruda's Other Films, and they put 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:49.800 out after he finished enough rope, he had this idea 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:53.160 with some collaborators to go, what would happen if we 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:55.439 gave a whole lot of young people a voice? And 0:10:55.760 --> 0:11:00.040 we found sort of ten to fifteen young voices in 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:01.960 the country, put them in the room together and said, 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.280 make a current affair show doing whatever you want to do, 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:06.240 and all of us will sort of us both digital 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:08.200 natives at that point in time, we were making stuff 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:11.080 on the internet, on YouTube, etc. And we pulled this 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:13.560 team together and Aaron and I were both part of 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:16.760 that team, and we collaborated on that show many times, 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:18.760 making all sorts of content, and one of the things 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:21.319 we created was this series of ox pops where I'd 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:23.720 go out in the street and we'd set up this 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:26.760 black piece of material, and for every episode of the 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:28.920 series of Hungry Beasts, we had one of these box pops. 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:30.880 So I'd go in the street with a set of 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:34.360 universal questions, so what do you fear, when's last time 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:37.440 you cried? What's your favorite thing to play? Things that 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:39.959 everyone has an answer to, And I'd stop people in 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:43.199 the street and ask them a series of questions. We'd 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:45.400 go back and we'd edit it together. And so the 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:47.680 editor was Nick McDougall, who's the editor, And you can't 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:49.480 ask that. So we'd put these little three and a 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:51.600 half minutes to five minutes of. 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:52.640 Just basically humanity. 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:55.840 Here's thirty faces or fifty faces that we filmed all 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:59.560 around the country in rich areas, poor areas, the top 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:01.640 of the country to the bottom of the country, all 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:04.800 different colors and faces of people, and they're all answering 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:07.000 this one question. And what you really got from these 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:09.800 box pop is that here's some person that you may 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:13.320 think is nothing like you, yet they're answering a question 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:16.040 in a way that you can identify with or that 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:17.959 you can connect with, and so it was a way 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.079 of sort of connecting people to people that they never 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.720 thought that they were similar to. And so we always 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:27.360 loved this idea of asking these big universal questions of 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.400 ordinary people. And when I say ordinary, I mean just 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:33.520 everyday people that we met on the street and. 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:36.600 So you kin't ask. That was sort of born from. 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:40.439 That in some respects. We then collaborate with John Casimir 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:42.760 who work with us on Hungry Beasts and John was 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:46.840 the creator of breun Transfer before that, and so he 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:48.440 was working at the ABC, and so the three of 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:51.120 us John, Aaron and myself sort of put our heads 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:55.760 together and in some respects evolved the vox Pops brought 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:57.840 in this sort of idea of this asked me anything 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:00.360 type thing that we saw on Reddit, and other than 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.160 asking anyone that we met, we then specialized it down 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:05.559 to a group of people and ask them a series 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:09.000 of universal questions. But those universal questions, I suppose were 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:12.200 the questions you can't ask. And at the time, in 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:15.400 twenty fifteen, twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, there was a lot 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:18.240 of what can you say, what can't you say political correctness? 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:19.880 I don't want to put my foot in it. I 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:22.080 think a lot of people were starting to be far 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:25.240 more aware of being aware of what you say and 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:27.600 what you can't say. But it meant that it was 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:32.160 stifling conversations in some respects because everyone felt like, well, oh, 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:35.120 that's the one. You know, Aboriginal people like being called indigenous, 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:36.839 and that's it. You can't if you say anything other 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:38.240 than that, then you're wrong. It's like, well, hang on, 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:40.120 how about we actually asked them what they want to 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:42.280 be called? And actually what everyone wants to be called, 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:45.120 if I can answer that question, is or they want 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:47.520 to be known as what nation they're from? Was the 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.640 overall overall answer that everyone had. You know, they said, look, 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:53.160 some people like Indigenous, some people liked Aboriginal, but everyone 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:56.720 seemed to like the idea that you asked what nation 0:13:56.800 --> 0:13:58.920 they were from. So it's sort of that's where it 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:02.320 sort of started. Originally, we were commissioned for I view. 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:05.000 It wasn't commissioned for television. We were given us We're 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:08.320 given the chance to make ten ten minute clips and 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:10.679 as we're interviewing, and this is the one that we 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:12.480 realized that couldn't be ten minutes when we were doing 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:15.600 an episode on transgender and we had eight people in 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:17.280 the room or seven people in the room are asking 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.000 them all these questions, so there's no possible way we 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:22.400 can tell their stories in ten minutes. So then we 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:24.520 went back to John who was head of a head 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:26.440 of entertainment the ABC at the time, and said, hey, 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:28.280 can we make this long? And he said, mate, it's 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:30.080 five you you can make it however long you want. 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:32.760 So that's when we started making these pieces longer than 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:35.960 ten minutes. And then from there, when the ABC saw it, 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:37.560 they went, hey, this should go on TV, and from 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:38.280 there it went to TV. 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:40.240 Well, I guess it's the best fly on the wall 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:43.640 content I have seen on television, especially even looking back 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:47.200 at twenty sixteen unpacking some of those topics, because I 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:50.240 just kept thinking, you can't ask that, you know, that's 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:52.760 the name of the show. I thought it was amazing 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:54.960 that you found this place in space that people feel 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.520 comfortable to open up and unpack something that was quite 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:01.080 personal to them, but allow them to answer the questions 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.440 that where's an audience we're desperate to know the answer? 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:07.560 I mean, were you ever in production thinking you can't 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:08.080 ask that. 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:12.960 Yes, lots of times the questions, especially in the first season, 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:16.240 felt very daunting to ask to print them on cards 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:20.080 and ask them questions, and some felt like a real SmackDown, 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:23.680 you know, they felt very They felt like, oh, this 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:26.760 is you know, it's unfair to ask these questions of 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:29.920 these people. And also we don't tell anyone who comes 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:33.000 to show what the questions are. We allude to the questions, 0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:36.000 I suppose, because when you're pre interviewing someone to come 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:37.560 on the show, you do talk about what are the 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:39.440 questions you hate getting asked, and what are the things 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:41.040 that people judge you on, and you. 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:42.640 Know, what are the things that people always get wrong 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:43.080 about you? 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:45.240 And so you start getting a bit painting a picture 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:48.000 of the areas that are the areas you need to ask. 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:50.000 And plus we have our own curiosities of things that 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.600 we don't know the answer to, because you know, for example, 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.400 someone in a wheelchair, it's like, you just want to know. 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:57.720 How do you have sex? Like, how how does that work? 0:15:57.760 --> 0:15:58.400 Can you feel? 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:00.840 Can you feel anything? It's one of those things that 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:04.240 you sort of just are curious about that. So, yeah, 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:08.160 we definitely felt nervous about it. But what we realized 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:11.320 very very quickly was a couple of things. One, if 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:14.280 you put the questions out on a card like we did, 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:16.440 because the questions did come from the public, even though 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:19.600 I curated the questions, because we've got so many, we've 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:22.240 given the power over to the people. So they get 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:24.280 to pick the question up, they get to read the question, 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:26.120 and then they get to answer the question how they 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:30.080 wont and so already there's a certain amount of power 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:33.600 given over to the person themselves, and they can say, hey, 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:35.520 I don't want to answer this question, or they can 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:37.480 take it down whichever path that they want to. Now 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:40.880 I asked follow up questions, of course, but already they 0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:42.720 get to choose how they want to respond, and they 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:45.200 get to take the question in before they answer it. 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:47.560 The second thing is what we found is that none 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:50.760 of these questions were ever a surprise. Even though we thought, 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:52.840 oh my god, this is so full on, they all went, oh, 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:55.400 we thought they were going to be worse, or we 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:58.280 thought they were going to be more full on, or 0:16:58.480 --> 0:16:59.040 we've heard. 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:00.480 All these before, but it's nice. 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:03.360 Normally people yell at us across the road these questions, 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:06.399 or they say it in an abusive way, whereas the 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:08.120 way I like to think of it is that even 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:12.040 though these questions on paper look quite horrible, sometimes we're 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:14.880 asking from a place of love, and when I'm sitting there, 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:16.240 I really really. 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:17.359 Care what this person has to say. 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:19.679 I want them to shine, I want them to do 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:23.400 a really really good job, and I want their point 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:25.879 of view to be heard. I want them to be understood. 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:27.920 I really want people to watch our. 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:29.840 Show and walk away going right. 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:32.399 So there's that full question, but actually the truth is 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:37.040 so much more interesting or nuanced or boring. Sometimes the 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:39.280 answers are actually really boring to a question that sounds 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:42.360 really spicy, and that's sort of good too, because people think, oh, 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:45.000 there's all this weird stuff around this thing, and I 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:46.680 can't ask it because who knows what might happen, And 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:48.880 the answer actually ends up being quite plain and quite boring, 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:51.920 which is sort of nice too. So we stop getting 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:54.600 nervous about the questions because we thought, you know, people 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:56.199 were adults. They're coming on the show, they know what 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:59.000 it's about. And then once one season went to air 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:01.439 and people saw the way we treated people's stories, it 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:03.480 became far easy to get people to come on the show. 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:05.320 People started putting the hand out, going can I come on? 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:07.240 Because I want to be understood. 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:12.560 The thing that really struck me as being quite fantastic 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:15.480 is that most of these questions feel like a hit 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:17.760 and run in real life. You know, most of the time, 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:20.920 when you're asked your question about your minority, and it's 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:23.520 usually in a way where people do feel uncomfortable to 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:25.600 ask you, it feels like a hit and run. They 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:28.040 just hit you with it and you don't get the 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:32.080 right of reply. And I think that that's where their 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.320 respect is there, because you're finally giving people the opportunity 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:39.320 to give a respected right of reply. That's exactly right, 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:42.160 that's what they've never been allowed to have. I mean, 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:44.439 I did that episode of You Can't Ask That for 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:47.320 reality television, and there were so many good questions in 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:51.320 that episode because most of the time those questions had 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:54.280 been said to me in a really negative context or 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:57.200 in a way to hurt me. Where when I sat 0:18:57.240 --> 0:18:59.600 down in front of the camera, it was very obvious 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:02.359 to me that this was an opportunity for me to 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:05.560 be able to answer it in my own time. And 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:09.760 that felt respect it like that felt like good conversation 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:10.600 for some reason. 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:11.320 That's right. 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:13.800 The questions really are there to open a door to 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:17.320 actually learn about someone, as opposed to from a place 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:22.240 of voyeurism or trying to harm them or take the 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:24.160 piss out of them or make a joke about them. 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:28.560 They're just there to open the door to an interesting 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:30.720 conversation so we can learn who these people are. 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.080 Were there any hurdles on getting ABC on board? 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:34.680 We were really. 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:38.040 Lucky because we'd created We sort of had this track 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:40.600 record of creating these vox pops which which everyone sort 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:43.600 of liked, and they showed the humanity in them, so 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:46.479 in a lot of respects. When people saw the first 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:49.800 edit of our first episode, it was like, Okay, this 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:53.760 is working. And because at the time lou Porter was 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:57.560 our EP and John was the head of entertainment, we 0:19:57.560 --> 0:19:59.560 were given a lot of trust in terms of how 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:02.280 he made the show. We were working with not only collaborators, 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:05.280 that people who trusted the type of work that we made, 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:07.280 and that's what you need when you're making content is 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:08.600 really at the end of the day, the people who 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:11.560 commission the content need to trust that the program is 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:13.520 going to turn out. If they don't trust you, that's 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:15.919 when people get involved. So we had to trust that 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:18.640 the show was going to turn out, and I think 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:21.640 that the show ultimately did exceed the expectations of maybe 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:23.639 what they were expecting, and it ended up being, like 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:25.560 I said, a little bit longer in those early days. 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:28.480 And really, the concept's so good, and I don't think 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:32.479 anyone really realized at the time that the simplicity of 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:35.400 it and asking these questions and then having people sit 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:39.800 down and answer them so honestly, how ultimately interesting and 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:44.720 fascinating and heartbreaking and hilarious and all these series emotions 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:47.080 that happened in such a short amount of time. 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:49.119 I don't think we foresaw. 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:51.440 How it was going to turn out, so it was 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:52.560 also a pleasant surprise. 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:54.639 How long does it take to come up with the 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:55.920 topics for the series? 0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:59.679 Look, as we've gone further into the series, it's harder 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:03.199 because there's less topics. We've done a lot of the 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:06.560 really good, obvious ones. But how we think of it 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:09.320 is like we'll go into the start of pre production, 0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:12.240 so day one, where all the team comes together, I'll 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:14.639 have a pretty good idea of a long list of 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:17.879 topics that we've sort of thrown around already, so we 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:19.720 came in with a long list, so you know, we 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:21.800 might have a long list of twelve or thirteen or 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:25.760 fourteen topics and across the season of eight episodes, we're 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:31.120 looking to have a variety, so we want we'll generally go, okay, 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:34.400 is there something in gender or sexuality we can look 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:36.760 at is there something in sex. We always like to 0:21:36.760 --> 0:21:39.919 have something we very sex positive show, so we like 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:42.520 to look at sex. We looked at BDSM in the past, 0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:45.639 or swingers. We looked at polyamory, which is not I 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:49.040 wouldn't say necessarily sex, it's more relationships, but we you know, 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:51.719 we look at that sort of we have a bucket 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:55.040 for that, and then sometimes we like to have an 0:21:55.040 --> 0:21:57.800 episode where we put people with profile on screen and 0:21:57.800 --> 0:21:59.280 you get to see them talk in a way that 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:02.760 you don't normally. In this season, we're looking at ex footballers. 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:06.160 We've looked at former politicians to go love to see 0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:08.439 these people speak in a forum that's very different from 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:10.480 how you normally get to see them. And so we 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:12.480 have all these different buckets of episodes and then we 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:14.920 tend to have an episode that's probably a bit more challenging, 0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:17.960 So something on domestic violence, or something on sexual assault, 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:21.600 something on suicide attempt survivors, where we get to really 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:24.600 go deep with a topic as well. So we have 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:27.159 all these different buckets of topics and then we look 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:29.680 across a season of eight episodes and go what feels 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:32.320 like a right fit this season. For example, you know, 0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:35.200 we have a disability in terms of amputees, we have 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:38.119 something on sexuality in lesbians. We have something a bit 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:40.919 heavier on families and missing persons. We're looking at the 0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:44.040 relationship stuff with cheaters, and then we also have we 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:46.679 want to make sure that the faces that appear on 0:22:46.760 --> 0:22:51.280 camera are really varied and of all different backgrounds, of ethnicities, 0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:53.880 of socioeconomics. I think that often gets forgotten when we're 0:22:53.880 --> 0:22:57.080 talking about diversity is hearing the voices of people of 0:22:57.080 --> 0:23:00.919 different socioeconomic backgrounds, people with different acts, sense, people with 0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:04.280 different beliefs, all these things we're thinking about not just 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:07.360 in the series of topics themselves, but then the faces 0:23:07.400 --> 0:23:09.720 that appear within those topics. We want to hear a 0:23:09.800 --> 0:23:13.600 variety of voices and ideas and ideals within those So 0:23:13.600 --> 0:23:15.040 that's sort of how we do it. We start with 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:17.679 a larger list and then our team starts putting these 0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:21.040 preliminary phone calls out seeing if we can find people, 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:23.800 seeing if people are interested in talking about it, seeing 0:23:23.840 --> 0:23:26.679 if there's enough questions that we really want answered, And 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:29.760 from there we put out to the public, Hey, here's 0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:32.280 our long list of twelve topics. What questions do you have? 0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:35.320 People send in questions, and then some people nominate, Hey, 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:36.879 I'm in that group. I wouldn't mind being on the 0:23:36.920 --> 0:23:39.240 show and talking about that stuff. And from there we 0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:41.720 then whittle it down and make a final decision on 0:23:41.760 --> 0:23:44.320 those eight topics, probably about two or three weeks into production. 0:23:44.760 --> 0:23:46.800 What I think is interesting is the diversity of the 0:23:46.880 --> 0:23:49.320 voices that you find. You know, and obviously there's these 0:23:49.359 --> 0:23:51.560 phone calls that go out there where you're talking to people, 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:54.840 so you're looking for different elements of story. Is there 0:23:55.320 --> 0:23:57.399 a type of personality that you kind of have to 0:23:57.440 --> 0:24:02.399 wean out, Like you're always looking to hear authenticity in 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:04.840 the voice, Like you're like that person's got great stories, 0:24:04.880 --> 0:24:07.840 but you know, doesn't seem to land as well. You know, 0:24:07.880 --> 0:24:11.040 like is there something in particular that you're looking for? Yees, 0:24:11.119 --> 0:24:13.879 because when I think of this show, I think of 0:24:14.520 --> 0:24:18.080 this real earnest sound in every single person. 0:24:19.680 --> 0:24:21.720 I can tell you right now. What we're looking for, 0:24:22.240 --> 0:24:25.719 first of all is people who own their story. So 0:24:26.000 --> 0:24:29.879 if you are under any illusions that you're not this person, 0:24:30.000 --> 0:24:32.240 or you're making excuses for who you are, that you 0:24:32.280 --> 0:24:34.880 haven't quite owned who you are and haven't owned your story, 0:24:35.520 --> 0:24:37.000 then it's going to be very hard for you to 0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:40.000 come on, because see, on our show, we can't really 0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:43.480 have people, we don't really have things, people with opinions, 0:24:43.520 --> 0:24:46.000 or people who are who don't tell the truth. I 0:24:46.040 --> 0:24:48.359 don't want to say lies, but people can't tell the truth. 0:24:48.400 --> 0:24:51.000 So it's very hard to have people on that are 0:24:51.119 --> 0:24:55.480 hiding something, that are feeling that don't want to tell 0:24:55.520 --> 0:24:59.000 the truth about something. So you need to be comfortable 0:24:59.000 --> 0:25:01.440 in your own skin, I suppose. So we're not necessarily 0:25:01.440 --> 0:25:03.560 looking for extroverts or introvers around that sort of stuff, 0:25:03.560 --> 0:25:05.879 but we're looking for people who are like, this is 0:25:05.960 --> 0:25:08.440 me and I own my story. There'll be different people 0:25:08.480 --> 0:25:12.560 on different levels of that, but that's first and foremost. Secondly, 0:25:13.200 --> 0:25:15.840 I generally prefer people who haven't done that much media. 0:25:15.920 --> 0:25:19.880 I don't really love spokespeople as a general rule, because 0:25:19.960 --> 0:25:23.159 I don't want people rolling out stories they've told a 0:25:23.240 --> 0:25:25.640 hundred times, and it's sort of like it's I want 0:25:25.680 --> 0:25:28.520 people to when people haven't done a whole lot of media. 0:25:28.720 --> 0:25:30.960 It means I can have a much realer conversation with 0:25:31.000 --> 0:25:33.720 them without them feeling like they have to they're leaning 0:25:33.720 --> 0:25:36.359 on stories that they've practiced twenty times. And then the 0:25:36.400 --> 0:25:39.320 third thing is, although I love having fans of the 0:25:39.320 --> 0:25:41.560 show on the show, sometimes having fans of the show 0:25:41.880 --> 0:25:45.320 is difficult because people come in sort of having prepared 0:25:45.359 --> 0:25:48.159 what they think a funny answers or something like that, 0:25:48.200 --> 0:25:49.639 and I don't want that. I just want someone to 0:25:49.680 --> 0:25:52.159 come in and just have a conversation with me and 0:25:52.800 --> 0:25:54.400 tell the truth of who it is to be them. 0:25:54.400 --> 0:25:56.399 And I just want to understand what it's like to 0:25:56.400 --> 0:25:57.880 stand in your shoes at the end of the day. 0:25:58.160 --> 0:25:59.960 This is not like, you know, if you're going to 0:26:00.160 --> 0:26:02.040 here on a panel show where you need to be 0:26:02.040 --> 0:26:04.399 fast and snappy and have your answer done him in 0:26:04.520 --> 0:26:07.640 thirty second. Grab For me, I want to go deep. 0:26:07.720 --> 0:26:10.320 I want to go down paths, weird paths that they 0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:12.800 weren't expecting and we may never even use that stuff, 0:26:12.840 --> 0:26:15.879 but I'm there to understand them wholly and fully, so 0:26:16.320 --> 0:26:18.640 I need someone who's willing to I suppose go there 0:26:18.840 --> 0:26:20.280 and tell me about their life. 0:26:20.480 --> 0:26:22.320 I want to unpack a few things that are there. 0:26:22.560 --> 0:26:26.600 Have you ever played an episode on television and then 0:26:26.760 --> 0:26:30.879 found out down the line that that person's story wasn't true? 0:26:31.520 --> 0:26:36.760 Umm? No, But I suppose I'm not really then going 0:26:36.760 --> 0:26:41.320 and investigating it later, unless that was to be fed 0:26:41.359 --> 0:26:44.600 back to me by someone. It's hard to know. And 0:26:44.640 --> 0:26:47.320 also people's personal stories, it's hard to know. I suppose 0:26:47.760 --> 0:26:50.800 what I mean by truth is that our questions aren't 0:26:50.840 --> 0:26:55.239 about opinion that much. So for example, it's about a 0:26:55.240 --> 0:26:59.600 belief system. Necessarily, our questions are more about the personal. 0:26:59.800 --> 0:27:03.160 So if what people are generally telling me your personal 0:27:03.359 --> 0:27:07.200 stories about themselves rather than their personal beliefs, like, for example, 0:27:07.200 --> 0:27:09.920 we can't do things abound the environment where we might 0:27:09.960 --> 0:27:13.600 ask someone a logger, for example, who cuts down trees, 0:27:13.640 --> 0:27:16.480 and we might ask their opinion about the environment because 0:27:16.800 --> 0:27:19.240 or on the flip side of that, someone who's an environmentalist, 0:27:19.520 --> 0:27:23.639 because if they say something that's factually incorrect, the only 0:27:23.680 --> 0:27:25.160 course we have is to edit it out. 0:27:25.160 --> 0:27:27.080 There's no host there. 0:27:26.920 --> 0:27:30.320 To go, Hey, what you're saying is not factually correct 0:27:31.160 --> 0:27:32.880 or there's no voice over anything, so the only course 0:27:32.920 --> 0:27:34.159 of action we have is to edit it out, and 0:27:34.200 --> 0:27:36.359 then you don't actually get to hear the truth. So 0:27:36.800 --> 0:27:41.120 really our show relies on people's personal history, their own 0:27:41.119 --> 0:27:43.159 personal story, so it's hard to find out sometimes if 0:27:43.200 --> 0:27:45.520 someone's not telling their truth. But yeah, look, we've definitely 0:27:45.520 --> 0:27:47.920 had some groups where I'm sure we haven't heard the 0:27:47.960 --> 0:27:50.800 whole truth. And I know that was true in an 0:27:50.800 --> 0:27:53.760 episode on gambling where I know someone was holding it 0:27:53.800 --> 0:27:55.879 back a little bit of truth during their interview, and 0:27:55.880 --> 0:27:58.560 actually that did come out ultimately that they said, hey, 0:27:58.600 --> 0:28:01.880 I've quite told the truth. So where there's shame involved, 0:28:01.880 --> 0:28:04.399 I suppose at times where maybe they don't want to 0:28:04.520 --> 0:28:07.680 reveal everything, they might curb the truth a little bit, 0:28:08.080 --> 0:28:10.840 but generally we tend to get past that. In the 0:28:10.880 --> 0:28:12.280 pre interview stage. 0:28:11.960 --> 0:28:16.080 You're looking for their truth, you know, so their interpretation 0:28:16.480 --> 0:28:20.320 of it's their account of what had happened. Even if 0:28:20.400 --> 0:28:23.520 they do tell you a story and then it turns 0:28:23.560 --> 0:28:26.639 out that's not how it happened for everyone else in 0:28:26.680 --> 0:28:29.360 the room, that's still their truth exactly. 0:28:29.440 --> 0:28:31.480 And look at this idea of what's true and what 0:28:31.600 --> 0:28:33.840 isn't true, it's really in the eye by the holder 0:28:33.920 --> 0:28:34.720 sometimes and. 0:28:34.640 --> 0:28:35.840 You don't want to get bogged down in that. 0:28:36.080 --> 0:28:39.520 No, and especially if you're you know, if we've done 0:28:39.520 --> 0:28:43.600 some episodes on people who experienced things like natural disasters 0:28:43.720 --> 0:28:46.200 or you know, someone's that put Arthur and these sorts 0:28:46.200 --> 0:28:49.320 of experiences, well, you're under intense trauma, you're under intense stress, 0:28:49.840 --> 0:28:51.960 and some of these things happened ten, fifteen, twenty years ago. 0:28:52.000 --> 0:28:56.280 So the idea that everything they remember is exactly factually accurate, 0:28:56.480 --> 0:28:58.280 it's not what we're trying to get at there. What 0:28:58.320 --> 0:28:59.720 we're trying to get at if you want to watch 0:28:59.720 --> 0:29:02.640 shows documentaries about a certain thing, that there's other programs 0:29:02.640 --> 0:29:04.320 to watch. What we're trying to get here is an 0:29:04.360 --> 0:29:06.480 understanding of the human condition, and how does someone deal 0:29:06.520 --> 0:29:08.400 with something like that, How do they deal with in 0:29:08.400 --> 0:29:10.479 the moment, how do they deal with it afterwards, how 0:29:10.520 --> 0:29:13.040 they reflect on it, How has it ultimately changed them 0:29:13.120 --> 0:29:15.560 or affected them over time, and how have they grown 0:29:15.760 --> 0:29:18.880 and learnt and how has it impacted them over their life. 0:29:18.920 --> 0:29:21.680 That's the most interesting stuff for me, more so than 0:29:21.720 --> 0:29:24.840 say the facts like one hundred percent right. And often 0:29:24.920 --> 0:29:27.160 when we tell those stories, we don't include every single 0:29:27.160 --> 0:29:30.040 beat of those stories. It's not what it's about. 0:29:30.200 --> 0:29:32.640 I think it's human nature to compared to different people. 0:29:33.040 --> 0:29:35.560 But I always find every episode I walk away from 0:29:35.680 --> 0:29:38.080 my partner and I always watching it together, I'm always like, 0:29:38.160 --> 0:29:40.520 I really liked that person. You know, I didn't like 0:29:40.600 --> 0:29:43.680 that person. You know, it's human nature to relate to 0:29:43.880 --> 0:29:46.440 people all talking about the same thing, like they've got 0:29:46.480 --> 0:29:48.840 a bit more humanity to them, or they were a 0:29:48.880 --> 0:29:51.600 little bit too silly. You know, it's quite a brilliant 0:29:51.600 --> 0:29:52.479 show in that regard. 0:29:52.920 --> 0:29:54.080 I never thought of it like that. 0:29:54.840 --> 0:29:57.360 I suppose what I'm most focusing on is making sure 0:29:57.400 --> 0:30:00.240 that what goes to air is who this person truly is, 0:30:00.240 --> 0:30:03.600 that their true essence goes to wear. But yeah, sometimes 0:30:03.600 --> 0:30:05.240 you hear that song goes I don't really like that person, 0:30:05.280 --> 0:30:08.320 I'm like, really, wow, I love that person. 0:30:08.480 --> 0:30:10.120 I really love them in real life. 0:30:10.120 --> 0:30:12.360 And then you start worrying, have we not got their 0:30:12.840 --> 0:30:16.240 genius to air? Have we not got their true beauty 0:30:16.240 --> 0:30:18.840 to air? But I think that's just human nature. Like 0:30:18.840 --> 0:30:21.320 you said, there's some people that you resonate with more 0:30:21.320 --> 0:30:24.480 than others. And every single season, when I bump into 0:30:24.480 --> 0:30:26.880 people who watch the show, they always have a different 0:30:27.000 --> 0:30:30.320 episode that was their favorite, and you really can't pick it. 0:30:30.640 --> 0:30:33.520 Some people, you go, really that that episode that was 0:30:33.560 --> 0:30:35.560 your favorite episode, They're like yeah, yeah, yeah, blah blah 0:30:35.600 --> 0:30:39.360 blah blah blah. So it's hard to tell. And it's 0:30:39.400 --> 0:30:43.000 not just about I suppose the topics or what people 0:30:43.040 --> 0:30:45.440 say sometimes, but you're right, it's the types of people 0:30:45.480 --> 0:30:47.640 and if you're at home, you just connect with different people. 0:30:47.720 --> 0:30:50.840 Sometimes when I watch you kin't ask that. I'm always 0:30:50.880 --> 0:30:53.400 thinking about how clever and how simple the show is. 0:30:54.080 --> 0:30:56.480 And yet some commentators of television is saying that we're 0:30:56.480 --> 0:30:59.840 struggling to find original content on television, which you know 0:31:00.160 --> 0:31:03.960 is crazy. Are people over complicating what makes good television? 0:31:04.480 --> 0:31:04.720 Yeah? 0:31:05.440 --> 0:31:07.840 Look, this type of show is not easy to make. 0:31:07.920 --> 0:31:10.520 It's you don't just turn it around in a second. 0:31:11.000 --> 0:31:12.960 It's about having a variety of shows, isn't it. I 0:31:12.960 --> 0:31:15.960 always have ideas for shows which I think would fit 0:31:16.320 --> 0:31:19.680 on different networks or at different times and hit different purposes. 0:31:19.960 --> 0:31:22.880 But I think what I particularly like about our show 0:31:22.920 --> 0:31:25.840 and sorts of programs we like to create, is that 0:31:26.480 --> 0:31:29.520 you're not just entertained, but hopefully you come away having 0:31:29.960 --> 0:31:33.280 learned something, having had these as Andrew Denton used to say, 0:31:33.280 --> 0:31:36.760 fuck me moments, moments which which you know, not that 0:31:36.800 --> 0:31:39.280 everyone has water coolers anymore, but that gives you something 0:31:39.320 --> 0:31:42.640 to talk about the next data gives you something to dissect, discuss, 0:31:42.840 --> 0:31:47.000 to challenge someone else's thoughts or beliefs, or challenge your 0:31:47.000 --> 0:31:48.040 own thoughts and beliefs. 0:31:48.720 --> 0:31:50.120 So I think. 0:31:49.920 --> 0:31:52.440 It's important that the content we make, and we're in 0:31:52.440 --> 0:31:55.240 this very very privileged position to put something to air 0:31:55.560 --> 0:31:57.400 and have a broadcast, to put something to air that 0:31:57.960 --> 0:31:59.680 a lot of people watch, I feel like it's an 0:31:59.680 --> 0:32:02.840 important that what do I do with that space and 0:32:02.840 --> 0:32:05.400 that privilege, And you know, let's not just put something 0:32:05.440 --> 0:32:07.120 to where that entertains, but let's put something to whar 0:32:07.160 --> 0:32:09.760 that does these other things. That being said, I like 0:32:09.800 --> 0:32:12.920 watching things that entertain me. And if every show was 0:32:12.960 --> 0:32:15.840 you can't ask that, it probably get really really boring 0:32:15.880 --> 0:32:19.440 as well. So you know, if everything that was worthy 0:32:19.520 --> 0:32:21.960 or earnest, then we might get sick of that. We 0:32:22.040 --> 0:32:26.240 just want something frivolous. And it's about that mix, like 0:32:26.240 --> 0:32:29.080 like like in our season of eight episodes, it's that 0:32:29.200 --> 0:32:31.240 mix of variety, Like if I didn't get to watch 0:32:31.280 --> 0:32:34.560 sport and sit down and watch some rugby rugby league 0:32:34.560 --> 0:32:37.640 and watch guys running into each other at full gas 0:32:39.000 --> 0:32:40.960 while I'm having a cold beer. Then I would probably 0:32:40.960 --> 0:32:43.960 be a very, very sad human. So I think the 0:32:44.040 --> 0:32:46.320 challenge at the moment is there's so much content and 0:32:46.640 --> 0:32:49.520 it's really really hard to get cut through. And this 0:32:49.560 --> 0:32:52.560 week's darling, everyone's forgote about next week, this fresh new 0:32:52.560 --> 0:32:55.640 idea in a month's time, none even can remember. 0:32:55.400 --> 0:32:56.080 The name of the show. 0:32:56.560 --> 0:32:58.440 So it's really really hard to get cut through at 0:32:58.440 --> 0:33:00.240 the moment. I think that's the biggest challenge at the 0:33:00.240 --> 0:33:02.920 moment to create, And that's why I think people throwing 0:33:02.960 --> 0:33:05.280 so many ideas at the wall really to see what sticks, 0:33:05.280 --> 0:33:07.400 Because how do you get cut through when you've got 0:33:07.480 --> 0:33:11.000 all these freeway networks, You've got all the streamers, you've 0:33:11.040 --> 0:33:14.160 got YouTube, you know, Hollo of audience, don't watch TV 0:33:14.280 --> 0:33:16.800 in its traditional form at all. You got the cinema, 0:33:16.800 --> 0:33:18.320 which is, you know, that's my favorite place to go 0:33:18.360 --> 0:33:20.560 on consume content. You know the sin people throw at 0:33:20.560 --> 0:33:23.880 the cinema completely dying, etcetera, etcetera. So how do you 0:33:23.880 --> 0:33:26.360 get cut through with these ideas? That's the trick. 0:33:26.600 --> 0:33:29.200 I think it's not stupefying the audience. Like, I think 0:33:29.960 --> 0:33:32.760 we are smarter these days. We're wanting to absorb things 0:33:32.800 --> 0:33:34.800 in a different way. It's interesting. I don't know if 0:33:34.800 --> 0:33:37.200 you've been to see Nobody at the cinemas, which came 0:33:37.240 --> 0:33:38.920 out two weeks ago, if you haven't gone see it, 0:33:39.240 --> 0:33:41.440 And I remember, like about twenty minutes into the movie, 0:33:41.480 --> 0:33:44.800 the movie took a significant change in storytelling that it 0:33:45.160 --> 0:33:48.360 don't feel like we had ever seen before. And then 0:33:48.400 --> 0:33:51.400 you as the audience were like, well, the violence can't 0:33:51.400 --> 0:33:53.640 be any more gratuitous than we've already seen. And then 0:33:53.680 --> 0:33:56.400 they would up the ante again and you were like, 0:33:56.480 --> 0:33:59.120 oh my god, they're breaking all the rules on what 0:33:59.240 --> 0:34:02.240 it is to not stupefy their audience and to give 0:34:02.280 --> 0:34:05.320 the audience truly what they want. And I think that's 0:34:05.320 --> 0:34:08.360 something that, you know, six seasons in, is pretty amazing 0:34:09.000 --> 0:34:13.200 that you guys are still surprising audiences and still delivering 0:34:13.360 --> 0:34:14.680 and not stupefying them. 0:34:14.840 --> 0:34:15.040 Yeah. 0:34:15.080 --> 0:34:17.279 Look, look, you make a very very good point. They're 0:34:18.480 --> 0:34:20.800 not treating the audience like the stupid. I think that's 0:34:21.040 --> 0:34:23.680 really really important. I don't think everyone thinks that way. 0:34:23.719 --> 0:34:27.279 I think people like do dumb down content. They try 0:34:27.280 --> 0:34:30.680 and hit the lowest common denominator sort of stuff in films. Look, 0:34:30.680 --> 0:34:33.200 you can take more risks in films. TVs far more 0:34:33.280 --> 0:34:37.000 risk averse than everyone's heard the stories of how some 0:34:37.040 --> 0:34:39.440 of the streamers and whatever are deciding how they make content. 0:34:39.520 --> 0:34:42.719 It's literally on algorithms and what people are clicking on, 0:34:42.920 --> 0:34:44.840 and it's like, Oh, everyone's clicked on that type of 0:34:44.880 --> 0:34:45.439 show this week. 0:34:45.480 --> 0:34:46.839 Okay, let's make a show like that. 0:34:47.440 --> 0:34:50.000 So it seems harder to take risks in television or 0:34:50.040 --> 0:34:53.360 people are more risk averse. But you've got to understand 0:34:53.360 --> 0:34:55.920 too that these commissioning editors, the people who are commissioning 0:34:55.920 --> 0:34:59.120 the shows, their whole job relies on people watching their shows. 0:35:00.280 --> 0:35:04.239 It's this big machine that relies on audience and eyeballs, 0:35:04.320 --> 0:35:06.680 and so they have an opinion about the sorts of 0:35:07.200 --> 0:35:09.239 content that's going to get those eyeballs, and sometimes that 0:35:09.320 --> 0:35:12.759 opinion means making it stupid or not taking a risk 0:35:13.040 --> 0:35:15.399 on a new idea. And then you see something that's 0:35:15.480 --> 0:35:18.080 risky and not treating someone stupid, and you're like, oh, 0:35:18.320 --> 0:35:20.840 this is such a fresh breath of fresh air, and 0:35:20.840 --> 0:35:23.400 you're like, why don't people take these risks more often? 0:35:23.480 --> 0:35:26.200 I don't know, it's a difficult equation. 0:35:26.320 --> 0:35:29.160 I suppose well not to play Sophie's choice with you 0:35:29.200 --> 0:35:30.960 on this one, because this could be very hard. But 0:35:31.280 --> 0:35:34.480 in this new series, which episode is your favorite? 0:35:34.920 --> 0:35:35.920 I was most. 0:35:35.680 --> 0:35:38.799 Excited about the Cheetahs episode because that has taken us 0:35:38.800 --> 0:35:40.920 a long time to make. It was really really difficult 0:35:40.960 --> 0:35:43.920 to make, and I really felt like these are people 0:35:43.960 --> 0:35:48.319 that people hate and have no time for, and to 0:35:48.360 --> 0:35:50.520 get people to come on and answer these questions. The 0:35:50.520 --> 0:35:52.680 first question is how could be such a pick? And 0:35:52.760 --> 0:35:55.279 then it goes on from there. So that was a very, 0:35:55.360 --> 0:35:57.920 very difficult episode to make. But there were some episodes 0:35:57.960 --> 0:36:01.319 this season which were really really surprised and amazing, like 0:36:01.760 --> 0:36:04.920 Lesbian's episode. One of those episodes where you sort of 0:36:04.920 --> 0:36:07.480 felt like, is they much to learn about this, and 0:36:07.480 --> 0:36:10.240 then you realize, oh, yeah, actually I know absolutely nothing. 0:36:11.040 --> 0:36:14.799 So I found that really surprising. I found the amputees 0:36:14.840 --> 0:36:19.640 episode really hilarious but also heartfelt, especially when talking about 0:36:19.680 --> 0:36:22.800 intimacy and body image and that sort of stuff. Obsessive 0:36:22.840 --> 0:36:27.319 compulsive disorder I think probably was the most misunderstood group 0:36:27.320 --> 0:36:31.560 of people because the idea of being OCD is like, oh, 0:36:31.600 --> 0:36:36.320 you've got this list of curios this list of symptoms, 0:36:36.320 --> 0:36:38.879 which is something that's funny, you know, wash your hands 0:36:38.880 --> 0:36:41.920 all these times, or turnlights which on and off. But 0:36:42.000 --> 0:36:44.279 what we learned very very quickly is that you know, 0:36:44.360 --> 0:36:47.880 this is actually torturous and if you wake up at 0:36:47.880 --> 0:36:49.960 the start of the day and you have these fears 0:36:49.960 --> 0:36:51.839 that these things are going to go wrong, unless you 0:36:52.200 --> 0:36:56.439 do these compulsions, then you can't operate. And so one 0:36:56.440 --> 0:36:58.120 of the guys, one of the lines that one of 0:36:57.800 --> 0:37:00.840 the gentleman said was you know, if you're washing your 0:37:00.840 --> 0:37:03.279 hands till they bleed, you know, this is not a 0:37:03.280 --> 0:37:05.440 funny thing. This is very very different from wanting your 0:37:05.440 --> 0:37:07.600 desk to be need or wanting to have a neat house. 0:37:08.280 --> 0:37:11.759 So OCD I think was something that felt like, oh, 0:37:11.800 --> 0:37:13.799 this is just a list of funny things that these 0:37:13.800 --> 0:37:15.760 people do to being like no, no, this is actually 0:37:15.880 --> 0:37:20.120 really really serious, life debilitating condition. 0:37:20.719 --> 0:37:23.279 But don't you think with some things that make us 0:37:23.320 --> 0:37:27.279 really uncomfortable, it's such a fine line between making us laugh, 0:37:27.360 --> 0:37:30.600 Like when we're very uncomfortable about something, we as humans 0:37:31.040 --> 0:37:33.799 have this reflex reaction to laugh at things that make 0:37:33.880 --> 0:37:34.879 us feel uncomfortable. 0:37:35.040 --> 0:37:36.960 Yeah, I think, so, are you talking about the audience, 0:37:36.960 --> 0:37:38.560 so you're talking about the participants. 0:37:38.080 --> 0:37:41.799 Themselves as an audience. I think that's again sort of why, 0:37:42.040 --> 0:37:45.000 Like just then you were talking about how something that 0:37:45.360 --> 0:37:47.640 could be kind of funny about being OCD and having 0:37:47.680 --> 0:37:49.920 to do something again and again, but it actually is 0:37:50.560 --> 0:37:55.000 a debilitating illness that is like really ruining these people's lives. 0:37:55.040 --> 0:37:58.480 But you know, quite often obsessive compulsive disorder has played 0:37:58.480 --> 0:37:59.760 off as being quite comical. 0:38:00.080 --> 0:38:03.080 That's right, And I think sometimes people don't realize, you know, 0:38:03.160 --> 0:38:06.440 the way that these things sometimes are covered in the 0:38:06.440 --> 0:38:11.480 mainstream media in films or whatever, has been dumbed down 0:38:11.640 --> 0:38:14.520 so that people can get it, or it's been dumb 0:38:14.600 --> 0:38:17.200 down to something that is played for laughs more so 0:38:17.280 --> 0:38:20.799 than played for the seriousness of it. Sometimes it's not 0:38:20.840 --> 0:38:22.799 our fault that we don't actually know what something is. 0:38:22.800 --> 0:38:24.839 We just never had that conversation with someone who've never 0:38:24.880 --> 0:38:27.279 actually heard the truth. But on the flip side, you're right, 0:38:27.400 --> 0:38:30.839 like the humor, the humor is something that we are 0:38:31.040 --> 0:38:36.200 constantly looking for because life is challenging and some of 0:38:36.239 --> 0:38:39.520 these people have some really really challenging things they have 0:38:39.640 --> 0:38:43.839 to deal with daily, hourly, every few minutes. Sometimes they 0:38:43.880 --> 0:38:46.440 can't laugh at some of this stuff, then they struggle 0:38:46.520 --> 0:38:49.200 to exist. So they some have a very very robust 0:38:49.200 --> 0:38:49.840 sense of humor. 0:38:50.080 --> 0:38:52.359 But I guess with spaces and places where we've been 0:38:52.400 --> 0:38:55.000 told we're not allowed to feel a certain way make 0:38:55.080 --> 0:38:57.920 this show really important. Do you think that we need 0:38:57.960 --> 0:39:01.000 to get better at being able to talk about taboo topics? 0:39:01.200 --> 0:39:04.719 I think we need to get better at asking caring questions. 0:39:05.200 --> 0:39:08.040 So if you are interested in someone, rather than just 0:39:08.080 --> 0:39:11.440 go for the jugular and go for the taboo question, 0:39:11.840 --> 0:39:15.359 actually get to know someone, care about them, and then 0:39:15.360 --> 0:39:18.560 when you've built that rapport with someone, then have the 0:39:18.600 --> 0:39:21.640 courage to ask about the questions that you don't understand, 0:39:21.840 --> 0:39:23.920 and then being aware that that person may or may 0:39:23.960 --> 0:39:25.759 not want to talk about it, and then being cool 0:39:25.760 --> 0:39:28.719 with that. Because when someone comes into talk to me, 0:39:28.800 --> 0:39:30.960 they're prepared for it, they've thought about it, they know 0:39:31.000 --> 0:39:33.080 they're coming in to answer questions. But if someone's just 0:39:33.120 --> 0:39:35.160 doing this shopping at the supermarket and someone comes up 0:39:35.200 --> 0:39:36.959 and goes, oh, how come we haven't got a leg, Well, 0:39:37.000 --> 0:39:39.000 you don't know what their day has been like. 0:39:39.080 --> 0:39:39.680 You don't know. 0:39:39.640 --> 0:39:41.560 Whether they've had a challenging day where they can be 0:39:41.600 --> 0:39:43.879 bothered answering that whether they answer that question already five 0:39:43.920 --> 0:39:47.000 times that day. So it's about being aware, it's about caring, 0:39:47.239 --> 0:39:49.440 it's about giving a shit about someone before you just 0:39:49.560 --> 0:39:51.160 delve in and ask these hard questions. 0:39:51.600 --> 0:39:53.520 I think that you are the best person for this 0:39:53.680 --> 0:39:55.920 job because what I know of you, I know you 0:39:55.960 --> 0:39:59.200 to be quite empathetic, you know, and I saw that 0:39:59.239 --> 0:40:01.400 when you were making the episode that I was a 0:40:01.440 --> 0:40:04.680 part of, and I feel it in the episodes without 0:40:04.760 --> 0:40:05.319 seeing you. 0:40:06.400 --> 0:40:09.840 My job is, like you said, is to show empathy, 0:40:10.120 --> 0:40:12.919 is to try and understand someone. So I'm not there 0:40:12.960 --> 0:40:16.960 to feel sorry for someone. I'm not there to feel sympathy. 0:40:17.440 --> 0:40:19.879 I'm not there to feel angry for them. I'm there 0:40:19.880 --> 0:40:22.279 to understand them. I'm there to understand what it's like 0:40:22.320 --> 0:40:27.239 to stand in their shoes. So I'm concentrating hard on 0:40:27.480 --> 0:40:31.399 trying to understand their experience as sometime as I feel 0:40:31.400 --> 0:40:33.520 emotional afterward, but in that moment, I'm trying to be 0:40:33.560 --> 0:40:36.040 there for them and trying to understand them. So if 0:40:36.040 --> 0:40:38.719 I get emotional, I'm not helping them shine. I'm not 0:40:38.800 --> 0:40:41.560 helping them express what they want to express. If I 0:40:41.600 --> 0:40:44.879 get caught up on my own personal emotions. So in 0:40:44.920 --> 0:40:50.239 those moments when I feel that coming on, I concentrate 0:40:50.480 --> 0:40:54.400 harder and think about what does this person need next? 0:40:54.800 --> 0:40:56.680 How do I help them express what they're trying to say? 0:40:56.680 --> 0:40:58.920 When someone gets emotionally, ask and you know, why does 0:40:58.960 --> 0:41:02.080 that make you emotional? I try and understand it more 0:41:02.160 --> 0:41:03.840 so than react. 0:41:04.080 --> 0:41:06.759 What makes an authentic moment? You did sort of mention 0:41:06.920 --> 0:41:09.359 this earlier? Is there a better time of the day 0:41:09.480 --> 0:41:12.600 to try and capture people's truth? Is there a beoutter? 0:41:12.760 --> 0:41:14.800 Do you give them a coffee before it starts? 0:41:14.880 --> 0:41:14.960 Like? 0:41:15.040 --> 0:41:17.719 What's the best way to get the authentic moment out 0:41:17.760 --> 0:41:18.160 of people? 0:41:18.760 --> 0:41:20.800 Time of day? I wish I could do that. 0:41:20.840 --> 0:41:24.640 When you're doing something like footy, players who are used 0:41:24.680 --> 0:41:26.759 to being in high demand, you know when they used 0:41:26.760 --> 0:41:29.319 to play, it's just a trick just to get them there. 0:41:29.360 --> 0:41:32.399 And particularly when we were doing shooting this stuff during coronavirus, 0:41:32.600 --> 0:41:34.680 whenever we could get someone was how we did it. 0:41:34.719 --> 0:41:36.239 So we don't have the luxury of any of that 0:41:36.280 --> 0:41:40.800 sort of stuff. Getting authenticity is a couple of things. 0:41:41.320 --> 0:41:44.880 It's about them realizing that I'm going to have a 0:41:44.880 --> 0:41:47.880 conversation with them, which is very, very different than typically 0:41:48.080 --> 0:41:50.400 they might have had say on the when they're a 0:41:50.400 --> 0:41:52.560 footy player, I'm on, I'm. 0:41:52.400 --> 0:41:53.040 There for them. 0:41:53.400 --> 0:41:55.200 I outline how it's all going to work, so there's 0:41:55.200 --> 0:41:58.600 no tricks, and then from there we're very clear about 0:41:58.600 --> 0:42:00.640 how it all works. So we're not trying to like 0:42:00.680 --> 0:42:01.960 I said to you, we're not trying to treat them 0:42:02.000 --> 0:42:02.560 or sting them. 0:42:02.800 --> 0:42:05.320 After that, it's about. 0:42:05.000 --> 0:42:09.760 Asking questions where my curiosity is true and I'm trying 0:42:09.760 --> 0:42:13.680 to actually understand them rather than judge them or pay 0:42:13.680 --> 0:42:15.520 them out or any these sorts of things. And so 0:42:15.560 --> 0:42:17.200 as soon as you start coming from a place of 0:42:17.239 --> 0:42:20.560 care and curiosity wanting to understand someone, people then relax. 0:42:21.040 --> 0:42:24.200 Then they start being themselves, and then they start expressing authentically. 0:42:24.719 --> 0:42:27.080 If they start tensing up because they're worried about what 0:42:27.080 --> 0:42:28.440 they're going to say and how it's going to get 0:42:28.480 --> 0:42:29.840 used and are they going to look stupid and now 0:42:29.840 --> 0:42:31.520 are you going to make a fool of them, then 0:42:31.520 --> 0:42:34.200 people will start curbing what they say. So it's all 0:42:34.239 --> 0:42:37.440 about making sure people feel relaxed and that they trust you. 0:42:37.520 --> 0:42:40.320 So it's about trying to build that trust. That trust 0:42:40.320 --> 0:42:42.200 gets built by my producers in the lead up to 0:42:42.200 --> 0:42:44.759 the interview, and then I try and continue on from 0:42:44.760 --> 0:42:46.879 the moment I meet them, and then it's treating people 0:42:46.880 --> 0:42:49.080 with a lot of respect. If you treat people with 0:42:49.120 --> 0:42:51.879 respect and you don't judge them, well, people will open 0:42:51.960 --> 0:42:53.120 up and tell you about themselves. 0:42:53.719 --> 0:42:56.600 What do you think has been the biggest learn from 0:42:56.920 --> 0:42:58.880 series one to series six? 0:42:59.320 --> 0:43:01.600 Well, a very big learning which was to make sure 0:43:01.640 --> 0:43:03.879 we ask a question which sets up who these people are, 0:43:04.320 --> 0:43:06.399 because if you don't know who they are, it's hard 0:43:06.440 --> 0:43:11.080 to care about someone. But in terms of the biggest learnings, 0:43:11.360 --> 0:43:15.799 I think that to not fear asking these questions, not 0:43:15.840 --> 0:43:19.839 to censor the questions, because I think there's a you 0:43:19.880 --> 0:43:22.560 feel like, you know, especially working at the ABC, and 0:43:22.800 --> 0:43:24.640 you want to do the right thing, and you don't 0:43:24.840 --> 0:43:26.920 you don't want to treat people unfairly any this sort 0:43:26.960 --> 0:43:30.480 of stuff. There's a temptation to censor the question down 0:43:30.960 --> 0:43:34.319 so it's easier. But what I feel like is that 0:43:34.360 --> 0:43:36.200 you need to give the respect to the person that 0:43:36.920 --> 0:43:40.200 they are an adult person who's lived a life and 0:43:40.239 --> 0:43:43.040 they can read that question themselves. And if you've created 0:43:43.040 --> 0:43:45.239 a space where they are allowed to answer however they 0:43:45.239 --> 0:43:48.480 want and honestly, then they can say, hey, I want 0:43:48.480 --> 0:43:50.480 to answer it this way or this way, I don't 0:43:50.480 --> 0:43:52.880 want to answer it, as opposed to me making that 0:43:52.960 --> 0:43:56.040 decision for them beforehand and saying, oh, that person won't 0:43:56.040 --> 0:43:57.120 be able to answer that question. 0:43:57.440 --> 0:43:57.960 Give them the. 0:43:57.920 --> 0:44:00.919 Respect to be able to answer the question despite how 0:44:00.960 --> 0:44:03.280 hard it might be. And if you prepare them well, 0:44:03.480 --> 0:44:05.840 if they know what they're walking into, that you're not 0:44:05.880 --> 0:44:10.000 ambushing them, then they will answer that question. So I 0:44:10.000 --> 0:44:12.279 think that's been a really really big learning And then 0:44:12.480 --> 0:44:16.239 also time and time again, we know nothing. You think 0:44:16.239 --> 0:44:18.560 you know about something, you think you know about a 0:44:18.560 --> 0:44:21.279 group of people, you think you know about a stereotype, 0:44:21.760 --> 0:44:23.680 and then you talk to people and you realize that 0:44:23.719 --> 0:44:25.759 you were wrong, or you talk to the second person 0:44:25.800 --> 0:44:27.360 in that group and they have a different opinion, and 0:44:27.400 --> 0:44:29.160 you talk a third person they have a different opinion. 0:44:29.680 --> 0:44:32.680 So despite having done all this sort of stuff and 0:44:32.719 --> 0:44:35.520 done all these different stories, it's a really good good 0:44:35.560 --> 0:44:37.960 reminder that the only thing you can really do is 0:44:37.960 --> 0:44:39.920 treat people on their own merits and have a conversation 0:44:40.000 --> 0:44:42.120 with them, rather than assume you know what their life 0:44:42.160 --> 0:44:44.360 is like, or assume you know what their experience is 0:44:44.440 --> 0:44:46.920 like because you've once watched it on TV or you've 0:44:46.960 --> 0:44:48.359 once met someone who's like that. 0:44:48.560 --> 0:44:51.880 You know, it's interesting about minorities these days. I've worked 0:44:51.920 --> 0:44:55.200 out that we all are minority in some way, you know, 0:44:55.320 --> 0:44:57.440 like in some way you are the minority. 0:44:57.960 --> 0:45:00.920 Yeah, it's a really, really good point. I often think 0:45:00.960 --> 0:45:04.040 about that, especially when used to do street interviews. Every 0:45:04.040 --> 0:45:06.719 person who walks past you go they have heartbreak, they 0:45:06.719 --> 0:45:09.239 have love, they have loss, they have something that good 0:45:09.360 --> 0:45:11.319 going on for them, they have something that's bad going 0:45:11.320 --> 0:45:13.440 on for them. They might have had a success, they 0:45:13.480 --> 0:45:15.640 might have had their mum die. You just don't know. 0:45:16.160 --> 0:45:19.800 Everyone's got all these complexities going on in their life, 0:45:19.880 --> 0:45:22.520 every single person who walks past you. And the thing 0:45:22.560 --> 0:45:24.960 that we actually really liked about the Adult Virgin's episode 0:45:24.960 --> 0:45:26.959 that we're doing to finish off the season this year, 0:45:27.280 --> 0:45:29.360 it's the first group that we've done that every single 0:45:29.360 --> 0:45:31.240 person in the world has been them at some point. 0:45:31.640 --> 0:45:33.240 So everyone's going to be able to watch the episode 0:45:33.280 --> 0:45:36.239 and empathize with these people because we've all been there, 0:45:36.800 --> 0:45:39.680 and like you said, we all in some respects have 0:45:39.800 --> 0:45:44.440 felt othered, have felt misunderstood, have felt judged, and so 0:45:44.480 --> 0:45:46.759 it's not that hard to actually empathize with someone who 0:45:47.000 --> 0:45:51.080 is feeling that because we've all felt it before. It 0:45:51.120 --> 0:45:53.359 may not be exactly the same as theirs, maybe not 0:45:53.400 --> 0:45:56.600 as full on as theirs, but we can empathize with 0:45:56.680 --> 0:45:58.760 those feelings that these people are talking about. 0:45:59.080 --> 0:46:01.360 Something I ask everyone who's a guest on the show, 0:46:01.440 --> 0:46:04.160 and that is what's something when you tell people what 0:46:04.200 --> 0:46:07.440 you do for work that you get out over dinner conversation, 0:46:07.600 --> 0:46:10.160 something of a funny anecdote, something that's happened to you. 0:46:10.440 --> 0:46:13.520 As being a producer working on this show. Is there 0:46:13.520 --> 0:46:18.200 any kind of behind the scenes moment that you often 0:46:18.239 --> 0:46:18.800 tell people? 0:46:19.120 --> 0:46:23.359 I suppose I'll just quickly share one story from this year, 0:46:23.480 --> 0:46:28.239 which was in NPT's episode We have a question, has 0:46:28.280 --> 0:46:34.640 anyone fucked your stump? Which we thought was verging on 0:46:34.680 --> 0:46:38.080 the question that can you not ask that question? As 0:46:38.120 --> 0:46:41.759 we went through every single interview, no one has. No 0:46:41.760 --> 0:46:43.640 one's fucked anyone's stump, Like they all thought it was 0:46:43.680 --> 0:46:47.200 the stupidest question, why would anyone want to fuck your stump? 0:46:47.440 --> 0:46:51.640 Until our very final interview with Kath Duncan, who's a 0:46:51.680 --> 0:46:55.680 congeneral mput so she's born without limbs and she has 0:46:56.080 --> 0:47:00.600 no arm below the elbow, and she wouldn't have been 0:47:00.600 --> 0:47:03.280 more excited to tell me about all the different people 0:47:03.320 --> 0:47:04.719 she's fucked with her stuff. 0:47:04.800 --> 0:47:07.400 And she's put it up women. 0:47:08.120 --> 0:47:10.960 She's had people suck on it like like it was 0:47:11.000 --> 0:47:13.880 a dick. She has people who have found her and 0:47:14.239 --> 0:47:16.960 found it a fetish. And the only thing that she 0:47:17.000 --> 0:47:19.480 hasn't done, as she put it, she hasn't put Stumpy 0:47:19.560 --> 0:47:20.560 up some guys ass. 0:47:20.960 --> 0:47:21.640 She got offered. 0:47:21.640 --> 0:47:25.640 At one time at the Tropical Fruits Festival, someone offered 0:47:25.680 --> 0:47:28.520 her the chance to do it. She declined on that day, 0:47:28.600 --> 0:47:29.960 and she said, I thought it was one of those 0:47:30.000 --> 0:47:32.480 things I'd get offered many many times. It's never happened since, 0:47:33.200 --> 0:47:38.080 and I have since never got the chance to put 0:47:38.160 --> 0:47:41.080 old Stumpy up some guy's ass. It was shocking to 0:47:41.120 --> 0:47:43.400 hear that in interview. 0:47:43.960 --> 0:47:44.799 You gotta imagine this. 0:47:45.239 --> 0:47:47.280 Is a lady in her fifties with bright red hair 0:47:47.400 --> 0:47:51.080 in a motorized you know, scooter. So not what I 0:47:51.120 --> 0:47:54.920 was expecting coming over her mouth, but very entertaining nonetheless, 0:47:55.040 --> 0:47:56.400 and she gives herself a big plug. 0:47:56.480 --> 0:47:59.360 So I imagine that if anyone watches the show and wants. 0:47:59.120 --> 0:48:03.880 To have that experience with Kat, she'll most likely oblige. 0:48:03.560 --> 0:48:05.960 People are hitting her up on social media the day after, 0:48:06.320 --> 0:48:09.560 the minute after that episode finishes. By the way, I 0:48:09.640 --> 0:48:13.400 can fulfill your dreams, she wants to do it. I 0:48:13.440 --> 0:48:16.000 just want to say thank you for contributing to you know, 0:48:16.080 --> 0:48:19.319 conversations needing to be had. There's so much more to 0:48:19.400 --> 0:48:22.200 explore and I, like the rest of Australia, I'm here 0:48:22.239 --> 0:48:25.760 for it. So I'm so excited to see season seven, 0:48:25.800 --> 0:48:28.480 season eight and season nine and to see you continue 0:48:28.480 --> 0:48:30.880 to contribute to these stories, which you do so well. 0:48:30.960 --> 0:48:32.600 Thanks mate, Thank you for having me on the show 0:48:32.640 --> 0:48:35.560 and really really lovely talking to you. And it's nice 0:48:35.560 --> 0:48:37.879 to have done it the other way around, whereas last 0:48:37.880 --> 0:48:39.680 time I was asking the questions and this time you're 0:48:39.719 --> 0:48:40.560 asking the questions. 0:48:40.600 --> 0:48:42.359 So thanks mate, appreciate it.