1 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I've Worked, a show about the tactics 2 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: used by the world's most successful people to get so 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. 4 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 5 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work day. 6 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: This episode is another my favorite Tip episode. The titles 7 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: probably pretty self explanatory. It's about my favorite tip from 8 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: each of the interviews I conduct. So the extract of 9 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: my chat today comes from my interview with Dan Heath. 10 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: Dan is the co author, along with his brother Chip, 11 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: of four New York Times bestsellers, Decisive, Switch, Made to 12 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: Stick and The Power of Moments. The Heath Brothers books 13 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: have sold over three million copies worldwide and have been 14 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: translated into thirty three languages. Dan is also a senior 15 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: fellow at Duke University's Case Center, which supports social entrepreneurs 16 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: and I am a huge, huge fan of Dan's work. 17 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: So in this chat, my extract of my chat with Dan, 18 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: he talks all about removing recurring irritance from your life, 19 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 1: and I personally found this fascinating and very very useful. 20 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: So on that note, let's head over to Dan. What 21 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: are some of the most significant changes or impactful changes 22 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 1: let's say that you've made to your own life to 23 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: focus more on the upstream. 24 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,919 Speaker 2: There's kind of two levels. Well, at the trivial level, 25 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 2: it's made me much more cognizant of recurring irritance. So 26 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 2: I'll tell you one that literally just occurred to me 27 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 2: this morning. So I woke up at six fifteen in 28 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 2: the morning. I have a sixteen month old who usually 29 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 2: is the alarm clock in the family, and today it 30 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 2: was kind of my turn to get up and get her. 31 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 2: And so I'm waking up. It's in the dark, and 32 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 2: I'm trying to get my clothes on. And one thing 33 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 2: that happens to me all the time I'm getting up, 34 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 2: I'm trying to put on my clothes in the dark 35 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 2: so I don't wake up my wife. And how do 36 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 2: I put my shirt on? You know? Is it inside out? 37 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 2: Is it right side out? And you've got to get 38 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 2: the front from the back. But I can't see the 39 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 2: tag in the dark. I can't see, you know, the 40 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 2: letters on the front of the shirt in the dark. 41 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 2: And so I'm just kind of taking a stab and 42 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 2: for some reason. My experience is that virtually nine times 43 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 2: out of ten I guess wrong, and then I'm kind 44 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 2: of irritated because maybe you wake up happier in the 45 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: morning than I do, but I'm already irritable, and then 46 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 2: I get my shirt on backwards and I feel like 47 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 2: a chump. And so I was thinking, this is exactly 48 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 2: the kind of thing that you just sort of live with, 49 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 2: that you don't have to live with. And so I've 50 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 2: hatched this idea now where every night I'm going to 51 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 2: lay my shirt down in the same way so that 52 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,679 Speaker 2: in the morning, when i have to do this automatically 53 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 2: in the dark, I'll know exactly what orientation it's at. 54 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 2: And you know, it's not like I'm going to win 55 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 2: a Nobel Prize for that for that dramatic insight, but 56 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:01,559 Speaker 2: it's an example of how downstream reacts can become habitual, 57 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 2: even even when it's at a recurring disadvantage to us. Now, 58 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 2: at the at the broader level, I think what it's 59 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 2: made me think about is my priorities in life and 60 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 2: how to ensure that the structure of my days and 61 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 2: the way I spend my time is aligned with those, which, 62 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 2: of course is just a classic difficulty, especially for your 63 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 2: you know, small business listeners or entrepreneurial listeners, trying to 64 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 2: you know, to go back to that classic two by 65 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 2: two how to make sure you don't collect the important 66 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 2: but not urgent things in your life, which I'm sure 67 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 2: you've talked about many times on the show. And so 68 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 2: I've begun to become relentless about time tracking, which is 69 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 2: not natural to me. I'm not kind of a you know, 70 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 2: genetically organized person. So it took some growing pains to 71 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 2: get into the habit of tracking my time. And then 72 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 2: about once every quarter, I just look and I just 73 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 2: have broad categories. You know, how much time did I 74 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: spend writing, how much time did I spend speaking or teaching? 75 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 2: How much time did I spend doing email? And kind 76 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 2: of the big buckets, at least for me, of ways 77 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 2: I spend my time. And then I start to try 78 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 2: to move those numbers. And for me, I know, what 79 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 2: makes me happy and what makes me satisfied is to 80 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,359 Speaker 2: spend as much time as I can speaking and writing, 81 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 2: actually in reverse order, writing first and speaking second, and 82 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: everything else in a way is to be minimized. I mean, 83 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 2: there's a certain amount of email that I have to 84 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 2: do just to continue relationships, but I don't want to 85 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 2: spend a lot of time doing email. And there's a 86 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 2: lot of other commitments, you know, things I said yes 87 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 2: to that I often end up regretting saying yes to. 88 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 2: And and there's something about looking at the numbers, uh 89 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 2: and seeing that you can move the numbers in your 90 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 2: own time expenditures. It's very motivating to me in a 91 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 2: way I wouldn't have guessed as a non organized, non 92 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 2: numbers focused per And so that's an example of where 93 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 2: I'm trying to use kind of the technology of personal 94 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 2: productivity to carve out space for the things that are 95 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 2: really important. 96 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: I love that. Yeah, I had Laura Vandicam on the show. 97 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: I feel like it's kind of the queen of time 98 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 1: tracking quite a while ago, and I'm wondering what's like 99 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: to get granular about it. What's your process for time 100 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: tracking and using software or using an Excel spreadsheet that 101 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: what does that look like? 102 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 2: I do? I use an app called Toggle. I'm just 103 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 2: going to be the endorser for Toggle, although I'm not 104 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 2: a very good endorser because I use the Freebee version 105 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 2: of the system. But I suspect there's you know, half 106 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 2: a dozen others that do the same thing, and it's 107 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 2: just the kind of thing where you go and you 108 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 2: set up your categories and then when you start something 109 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 2: like if I start a writing shift in the morning, 110 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 2: I just have to go and kind of click a button. 111 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 2: It's super easy. But the payoff comes if you're relentless 112 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: about doing it. The power comes when you get to 113 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 2: roll up those numbers and see in black and why, 114 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 2: like how much time did I really spend in the 115 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 2: last quarter doing email? And you, you know, you got 116 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 2: to look yourself in the mirror at that point and say, 117 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 2: ten years from now, do I want to be the 118 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 2: person who spent one thousand hours doing email? And then 119 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 2: that opens the door to change. 120 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: That's awesome and I like that distinction between the two 121 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: types of upstream thinking that you've applied in your life. 122 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: I remember reading in the book the story about how 123 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,559 Speaker 1: you bought a second computer charger, and I was wondering 124 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: if you could talk about that, And also I was 125 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: curious because that then led to you talking about how 126 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: you do a lot of your best work in coffee shops. 127 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: So perhaps could you explain what happened with just that 128 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: very simple upstream solution there. 129 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course this is this is another from the 130 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 2: category of recurring irritants that we just for some reason 131 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 2: in your So I have a proper office with a 132 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 2: proper desk, but for whatever reason, I do my best 133 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 2: writing in coffee shops. And that's always been the case, 134 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 2: and I have my regular routines. I try to sit 135 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 2: in the same table, and I put my headphones on, 136 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 2: and that's just kind of where what works for me. 137 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 2: But as part of that, you know, I'm lugging my 138 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 2: laptop around, and so every time I go to the 139 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 2: coffee shop, you know, I got to fish my power 140 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 2: cord out of the bag, plug it into the wall, 141 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 2: finish my shift, and then I come back to my 142 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 2: office to do email or calls or whatever, and then 143 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 2: I got to fish the power cord out of the 144 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 2: bag again and plug it into the wall. And I've 145 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 2: got one hundred cords going from my desk, so it's 146 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 2: always just a little bit of a nuisance. And this 147 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 2: just seemed like that's the way reality has to be. 148 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 2: You've got to constantly be doing this with your power cord. 149 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 2: And then I'm embarrassed to say it took being in 150 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 2: the process of writing a book called Upstream to make 151 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 2: me think, h what if? What if I lived in 152 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 2: a world where I had two power cords? And so 153 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 2: I know you're all astonished by my genius. But I 154 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 2: bought a second power cord and I fixed one of 155 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 2: them permanently to my desk. So now it's just a 156 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: trivial matter of setting my laptop in and I move 157 00:07:58,080 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 2: it a quarter of an inch to plug it in, 158 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 2: and another one lives always in my laptop bag. And 159 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 2: so again, you know, no great insight, there no great 160 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 2: need for creativity. It was just kind of a flash 161 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 2: of recognition. And in the book I talk about the 162 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 2: force that explains why this is so uncommon. You know, 163 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 2: why did it take me writing a book about prevention 164 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 2: to even think about this? And it has to do 165 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 2: with a force called tunneling. And tunneling is a word 166 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 2: that comes from a book called Scarcity written by El 167 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 2: Dar Shafir and Sinndel Mull and Nathan And what they 168 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 2: mean by tunneling is they say, when we're juggling a 169 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 2: lot of problems in life, at a certain point we 170 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 2: give up trying to solve them all and we shift 171 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 2: our mental model into what's effectively tunnel vision. I mean, 172 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 2: just call up that visual image in your mind. You're 173 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 2: in a tunnel. You're just trying to knock things down 174 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 2: one at a time. You know, in a tunnel, the 175 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:00,599 Speaker 2: only way you can go is backward and forward, and 176 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 2: for most of us, forward is the only direction. And 177 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 2: so what that means is I've got to constantly be 178 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 2: parrying the problems that I'm dealing with. I'm going to 179 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 2: work around to get to the next one. And tunneling 180 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 2: becomes one of these self reinforcing habits. Because when you're 181 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 2: in a tunnel and you're used to tunneling and only 182 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 2: question is how far forward can you get in a day? 183 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 2: You stop asking, hey, am I going the right direction 184 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 2: at all? Or is there a better tunnel that I 185 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 2: could put myself in, or is there a way I 186 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 2: can step out of this tunnel for an hour a 187 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 2: day and consider some of my behaviors. And so tunneling 188 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 2: is one of the villains, if you will, in the 189 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 2: book that helps to explain why it's so uncommon or 190 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 2: unnatural to shift into upstream thinking. 191 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: It's really interesting since reading the book, I've actually developed 192 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: a list on my to do list software of things 193 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: that I am doing doing repetitively in terms of every week, 194 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: but that I find either mine nominally boring or irritating, 195 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: or something that I could either outsource or find a solution. 196 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: And then what I'm planning to do is weekly review 197 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: that list and try to think more upstream. 198 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 2: You had any easy wins, like any second power chord 199 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 2: kind of stories. 200 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: Well, well, it's funny because I do have a second 201 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: power chord story, but that happened before the book. So 202 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: in my home office setup, and it's funny, like you, 203 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: I do my best work in coffee shops, but in 204 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 1: my home office setup, I've got the rooms kind of 205 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: split in half, and half of it is the podcast 206 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: studio with the soundproofing barriers and so forth, and the 207 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: other half is where I would do normal work, like 208 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: writing or something like that. And I used to only 209 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 1: have one power cord and I would move it between 210 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: both sides of the office, and it struck me that 211 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: that was quite annoying, having to go under the tear 212 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: desk and find the right chord and so forth, And 213 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: so I too, bought a second power chord. 214 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 2: I'm not expational association of people. 215 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: I know exactly. I feel like Apple are missing a 216 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: trick by, you know, not bundling in two power chords 217 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: into the one package. But I think that's great, just 218 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: the idea of thinking about recurring irritance in your life. Hello, there, 219 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: that is it for today's show. If you liked this episode, 220 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: why not share it with someone that you also think 221 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: could benefit, maybe someone that has some recurring irritants in 222 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: their life. And a big thank you for those that 223 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: have been spreading the word about how I work. It's 224 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: one of the ways that this podcast has continued to grow, 225 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: So a huge thank you if you have been doing that. 226 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: So that is it for today and I'll see you 227 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: next time.