1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:01,720 Speaker 1: Hello there. 2 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 2: I am taking a little break over Christmas, so I've 3 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 2: handpicked a bunch of my favorite interviews from twenty twenty. 4 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: Two to play while I'm away. 5 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 2: And if there are any people you'd like to hear 6 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 2: from in twenty twenty three on how I work, drop 7 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 2: me a note via the socials. You can find me 8 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 2: on LinkedIn under Amantha Imba and on Instagram at Amantha I. 9 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 2: One of my pet peeves with a lot of psychology 10 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 2: research is that when you read the results. 11 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: You think, wow, that's pretty obvious. 12 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 2: No surprises are there, which is why nearly fifteen years ago, 13 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 2: when I read a book called Quirkology, I devoured it. 14 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 2: It's written by psychology professor Richard Wiseman, and as the 15 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 2: name suggests, it's full of studies, many of which Richard 16 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 2: conducted himself, that are very quirky and very surprising. Scientific 17 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 2: American has described rich as one of the most interesting 18 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 2: and innovative experimental psychologists in the world. Richard has researched 19 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 2: everything from how we can train ourselves to be luckier, 20 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 2: through to how to spot a liar and the psychology 21 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 2: of magic and illusion. So how does one of the 22 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 2: most creative psychologists in the world make decisions, make himself luckier, 23 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 2: and use magic to improve his work as a psychologist. 24 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 2: My name is doctor Amanthe Impact. I'm an organizational psychologist 25 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 2: and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, And this 26 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 2: is how I work, a show about how to help 27 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 2: you do your best work. 28 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: So Richard has. 29 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: Learned a myriad of different strategies through his research and 30 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 2: quite famous experiments. I wanted to know which ones have 31 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 2: had the biggest impact on him. 32 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 3: I think with the luck work, it's probably more about 33 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 3: being open to opportunities and being flexible. And I think 34 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 3: that's easy to say and quite hard to do in practice. 35 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 3: So I worked with about five hundred very lucky people, 36 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 3: and they were very, very flexible thinkers. They had an 37 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 3: end goal, they knew where they were going, but they 38 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 3: also knew that the world changed and you needed to 39 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 3: sort of set your sail to make the most of 40 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 3: the wind, as it were. And I think in my 41 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 3: own life I've done something very similar. So you've got 42 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 3: an end point and then you think, well, how I'm 43 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 3: going to get there? It's not quite clear to me. 44 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 3: And sometimes you have a chance conversation with somebody, and 45 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 3: you go, actually, that's where I can gallop off on 46 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 3: that project or something like that. And so I think 47 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 3: there's no such thing as a bad idea. There's just 48 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 3: an idea whose time hasn't come. Who But if an 49 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 3: idea feels too hard, then I'll stop trying to pursue it, 50 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 3: and I'll just try something else that feels easier at 51 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 3: this moment, knowing that I might go back to that 52 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 3: other idea, that other project at some point. And I 53 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 3: think it's that inherent flexibility I find very helpful. The 54 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 3: other thing which my team will scream at me for 55 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 3: and have done for twenty five years, is that often 56 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 3: I'll say, Okay, this is the experiment we're going to do. 57 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 3: This is how we're going to do it, and we 58 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 3: all start to plan for that, and then it might 59 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 3: take a month or two months to get it ready, 60 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 3: and then week seven or indeed ten minutes before we start, 61 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 3: I might go, you know what, there's a better way 62 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 3: of doing this, And at that point there's no point 63 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 3: in arguing with me. We're all switching, and it doesn't 64 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 3: matter how much resources you put into to what you've 65 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 3: done to get to that point. If there's a better plan, 66 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 3: a better idea, it wins. So I always think parking 67 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 3: your ego, parking your plans, parking your preparation, and just 68 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 3: going best idea wins. It is quite a successful strategy. 69 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 3: But it's the thing that always feels, you know, I've 70 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 3: set so many of those emails where I kind of go, 71 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 3: I know we're all geared up. I know we're all 72 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 3: geared up to do this, but last night I realized 73 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 3: that it's better to do this now, so let's all change, 74 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 3: and thank goodness, I work with a group of people 75 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 3: that are very happy to change overnight, and sometimes we 76 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 3: do live shows, it can be ten minutes before we start, 77 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 3: is that we'll all go. You know what, for this audience, 78 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 3: there's a better way. I've just spoken to somebody, it's 79 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 3: better to do this, and off we'll go. And I 80 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 3: think that's what makes it interesting. So I think that 81 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 3: flexibility to get back to your question is key to 82 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 3: what I do. 83 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 2: How do you make those decisions because I imagine in 84 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 2: the moment they're quite hard decisions to make where you're 85 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,799 Speaker 2: directing a team to go in a completely different direction 86 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 2: and probably causing a bit of stress, Like is it 87 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 2: a gut or is it something else? 88 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 3: No, I think it's so. I don't tend to make 89 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 3: decisions on my own. I think I'm quite a poor 90 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 3: decision maker in that sense. What I'm quite good at 91 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 3: is coming up with options and talking to people and 92 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 3: they make the decisions for me, and so I think 93 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 3: making the decision is fairly straightforward. What's hard is implementing it. 94 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 3: And you mustn't cause people stress. That's not my job. 95 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 3: That's not my role. So my role is always to 96 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 3: keep the team buoyant. And if people are not having 97 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 3: a good time, quite frankly, they're not going to work 98 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:36,559 Speaker 3: with me, and they certainly won't work with me again. 99 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 3: And we all live in very small worlds, and so 100 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 3: reputation is the number one thing. If you can't go 101 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 3: back to somebody, if the last time they worked with 102 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 3: you as an absolute disaster and they had a terrible time, 103 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 3: they don't want to work with you again. So reputation 104 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 3: really matters. I always want to have people to have 105 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 3: fun with those changes and with those switches, and if 106 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 3: it stresses somebody out, then I simply wouldn't go with it. 107 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 3: Under those circumstances, sometimes you have to manage disappointment. But 108 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 3: that's a different thing. If somebody's put a great deal 109 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 3: of time into something, then you might go, look, I 110 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 3: really appreciate that, and we will use all of that 111 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 3: at some point, just not today. So but the decisions 112 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 3: are very easy because you just know it. You know 113 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 3: when it's a better idea, you can feel it in 114 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 3: your bones, and everyone sort of has to agree with you. 115 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 3: Otherwise you can't carry the team along. It would just 116 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 3: be me being a bit odd at the helm, throwing 117 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 3: the shit from one side to the other. And you 118 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 3: don't want that. You need to be able to say 119 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 3: to people, this is why it's a better idea. What 120 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 3: do you think if they agree, then how can we 121 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 3: make this happen next week, tomorrow or whatever. 122 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: We've talked about openness to opportunities. 123 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 2: What are some other strategies that you've learned through your 124 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 2: research that you've found really useful in applying in your 125 00:06:58,160 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 2: own life. 126 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 3: I don't know through the through my own experience, so 127 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 3: I have the worst decision making heuristic in the world, 128 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 3: which I don't recommend to anyone, but it saved my 129 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 3: bacon many many times, which is so often I have 130 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 3: to go into a room and come up with an 131 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 3: idea for an experiment or a campaign or a research 132 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 3: or whatever a show, and I will think quite a 133 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 3: lot about different angles. So there's nothing as dangerous as 134 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 3: a person with one idea. So you have this idea 135 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 3: and you think that's great, and then you go right 136 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 3: forget that. Let's come up with a different angle, and 137 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 3: then you Otherwise, what you get is buying on a 138 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 3: single idea, and you fall in love with this idea 139 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 3: and you decide that's the only way forward. So I 140 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 3: come up with an idea, jettison it, come up with 141 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 3: anothers I don't really work them through very much, and 142 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 3: I don't decide where I'm going to go with a 143 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 3: pitch until I walk in the room. I only decide 144 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 3: that as I walk into that room and sit down, 145 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 3: and you see the team you're pitching to, and at 146 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 3: that point, because you haven't got a kind of you 147 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 3: haven't got an approach in mind, it feels very live 148 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 3: and very real. And what you don't try and do 149 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 3: is sell them something that they don't really want. It's 150 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 3: they're there in front of you can see what sorts 151 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 3: of people there are. They are, and they tell you 152 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 3: so much, and that's at that point I hope to 153 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 3: have a good idea, and that has worked for me 154 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 3: for about thirty years. So an example of it was 155 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 3: a National Science a year over in this country quite 156 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 3: a few years ago, and they wanted an experiment to 157 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 3: run throughout the whole year, to engage with families with 158 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 3: children with adults that would have little bits the media 159 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 3: could report on throughout the year and be nice if 160 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 3: everyone's involved. Blah blah blah, blah blah blah. Quite a 161 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 3: hard pitch, actually quite a hard thing, so I thought 162 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 3: various topics, didn't settle on anything. I walked into the room, 163 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 3: sat down and spoke to them a few minutes and said, 164 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 3: we're going to search for the world's funniest joke. And 165 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 3: that was the full extent of that pitch. It was 166 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 3: literally one sentence and they just went perfect and that 167 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 3: was the end of it. And the idea that that framing. 168 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 3: I've thought of doing something on humor, but the framing 169 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 3: of searching for the world's funniest joke, which sharpens it 170 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 3: all up, came to me as I walked from the 171 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 3: door to the chair. And that's happened to me a 172 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 3: lot that where you feel that it's a hard thing 173 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 3: to do because we like to walk into pitches really prepared, 174 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 3: and I think there's something about the liveness, maybe because 175 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 3: I'm a sort of live performer that I like that 176 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 3: kind of let's live in the moment. So you're prepared, 177 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 3: but you haven't quite got it all sharpened up until 178 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 3: you're sitting there. 179 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,079 Speaker 2: How did that work earlier in your career where I am, 180 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 2: you know, maybe didn't have the confidence and you certainly 181 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 2: didn't have the experience that you have now. 182 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: Because that sounds terrifying. 183 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 3: I don't think it is, because you think, well, the 184 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 3: worst that can happen is I don't have a very 185 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 3: good idea, in which case I just leave and there'll 186 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 3: be other pitches, There'll be other opportunities. Let's just let 187 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,439 Speaker 3: this one go to somebody who's got a better idea 188 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 3: than me. I don't find it terrifying. What I find 189 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 3: terrifying is sitting in that room and selling something that 190 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 3: I don't believe in my heart. I find that terrifying 191 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 3: because I think I'm going to have to go and 192 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 3: deliver this now, and it's going to be a lot 193 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 3: of work. I'm going to try and get people involved, 194 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 3: and I don't feel it. I don't feel it. So 195 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 3: if I don't feel it, let it go. Let it go, 196 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 3: Let it go to somebody who can get it right. 197 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 3: So I don't find it terrifying. And I've sort of 198 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 3: always done it, but I'm not recommending it for others. 199 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 3: It just kind of works works quite well for me 200 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 3: of living in the moment and changing your mind when 201 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 3: the better idea comes along. 202 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: I love it. 203 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 2: I don't think I've had a guest talk about that 204 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 2: approach to well. 205 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 3: I'm sure they're more successful than I am, so yeah. 206 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I yes, Look, I would expect nothing less from 207 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 2: the person that wrote Quocology, which which remains one of 208 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 2: my favorite psychology books. 209 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 3: I must say, oh, thank you. 210 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 2: What else do you do, Richard that in your own 211 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 2: approach to work that makes people go, oh my gosh, 212 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 2: you do that? 213 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 3: I think I listen to. I think it's really easy 214 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 3: to have a sort of mental set perspective where you go, 215 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 3: this is what I'm trying to do, and because of that, 216 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 3: you don't see the simple solution outside of that. And 217 00:11:55,440 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 3: each of the books has been like that. So originally 218 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 3: I did about ten years work on the paranormal. We 219 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 3: try and sell a book on the paranormal, the skeptical 220 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 3: of scientific book. No one's interested because there's no real 221 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 3: audience for that, and it would have been easy to 222 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 3: have gone. When I got my thirtieth rejection letter from 223 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 3: a publisher, well that's the end of that then, and 224 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 3: I went to see my agent and he said, what 225 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 3: else are you working on? And at the time it 226 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 3: was the weirdest thing. I had a conversation with somebody 227 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 3: who said, I don't believe in all this paranormal stuff. 228 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 3: I'm not psychic. I'll tell you what, though, I'm really lucky. 229 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 3: Everything's it, and they're very similar when you think about it, 230 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 3: you know, they're actually conceptionally quite similar. But luck is 231 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 3: an interesting word. And so I said to my agent, 232 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:49,439 Speaker 3: while I'm doing some stuff on psychology of luck, and 233 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 3: he said, that's a very interesting topic, and it never 234 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 3: occurred to me to have done a book on that. 235 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 3: I wrote that book, and that became the first one, 236 00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 3: and it's sold all over the world. That was lovely. 237 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 3: Quacology happened because of the word freakonomics. That was a 238 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 3: huge book. Someone at an airport I was chatting to 239 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 3: somebody an airport and they said, all freakonomics is a 240 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 3: bit like your stuff, and I said, no, it's not really. 241 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 3: I'm not an economist at all. They said what do 242 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,439 Speaker 3: you do? And I said, I do sort of quirky psychology. 243 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 3: And they said, well, what would that be? And I said, 244 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,959 Speaker 3: that's quacology. Now. That would have been a really easy 245 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 3: thing to just go out as a silly word and 246 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 3: walked away. And then you go, hold on a second, 247 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 3: that's a good word. 248 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 2: What is that? 249 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 3: I owned that word now, and so that became the 250 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:44,839 Speaker 3: second book. Fifty nine Seconds was astonishing. I went to 251 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 3: see a friend of mine who's CEO quite a big company. 252 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 3: We've had coffee. She wasn't very happy. She said, what 253 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,599 Speaker 3: can I do to change my happiness? I started to 254 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 3: talk about theories of happiness. She said, can you get 255 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 3: on with it? I'm a bit busy. I said, how 256 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 3: long have you got? She said about a minute? And 257 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 3: I suddenly thought there's quite a lot of psychology that 258 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 3: you can deliver in a minute. And that was the 259 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 3: beginning of fifty nine seconds. And I was giving a talk, 260 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 3: and the talk of the book was originally going to 261 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 3: be called sixty seconds. I said, this is things you 262 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 3: can learn in less than a minute, or somebody in 263 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 3: the audience said it should be called fifty nine seconds. 264 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 3: Then I thought it was a better title. So I 265 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 3: think all these things are in front of us. But 266 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 3: it had been so easy to have gone, Yeah, I'm 267 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 3: interested in the paranormal and not interested in a luck book. 268 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 2: You know. 269 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 3: I'm not interested in doing a thing like free economics. 270 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 3: I'm not interested in doing a short book, I think. 271 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 3: But these opportunities are there, and it's the openness to listening, 272 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 3: I think, and changing course. Each one of them is 273 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 3: a better idea than the idea I was pursuing at 274 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 3: the time. 275 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 2: Now, Richard, you are the second psychologist that I've had 276 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 2: on this podcast that is also a magician. 277 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 3: Oh, who's the other one, Adam Grant. 278 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 2: So I've had Adam on a couple of that, and 279 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 2: I'd love to know how you got into magic in 280 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 2: the first place. 281 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 3: I got his magic very young, when I was about 282 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 3: eight or nine, I think, which is when a lot 283 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 3: of people get into magic. There's something quite special about 284 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 3: that age. Through my grandfather, who showed me a very 285 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 3: good magic trick, and he wouldn't tell me how it 286 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 3: was done. I used to go and visit him every 287 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 3: weekend and he pretty much did the same trick every weekend. 288 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 3: But he's very white, so I've had difficulties reading. In fact, 289 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 3: it's turned out dyslexic, which I didn't realize until the 290 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 3: pandemic when I had an assessment. Is a bit more 291 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 3: time on my hands, so but I did have reading difficulties. 292 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 3: So he said the answer, the solution to the trick 293 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 3: is in a book, and the book is in the 294 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 3: public library. And it was just his way getting me 295 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 3: to go and read some stuff and it absolutely works. 296 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 3: So I read all the magic books, thought that this 297 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 3: was a wonderful, wonderful world, and then yeah, joined my 298 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 3: local club and joined then the Magic Circle in London. 299 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 3: But that was the roots of it. It was my grandfather. 300 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 3: He wasn't a magician. He only knew one trick, which 301 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 3: I think he picked up during the war, but it's 302 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 3: a good trick and sent me to the library. So 303 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 3: that was my origin story. 304 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 2: So how does your knowledge of magic make you better 305 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 2: at what you do now? In terms of psychology and 306 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 2: all the research and experiments that you do. 307 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 3: I think magic's quite unique because the solutions to tricks 308 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 3: are normally brilliantly elegant and simple, and normally for any 309 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 3: what magician would call an effect like a levitation for example, 310 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 3: that's an effect. Then you have method, which is how 311 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 3: it's done. There's always another way. You learn there's always 312 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 3: another way, and that magic evolves. So the way magicians 313 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 3: float people now is not the same as it was 314 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 3: thirty years ago, certainly not the same as it was 315 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 3: one hundred years ago. So you'd learn there's always another way, 316 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 3: and that if you can find in that way, then 317 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 3: you can perform the trick in a new kind of 318 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,719 Speaker 3: new new way. So I think that's important obviously that 319 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 3: most of the solutions are lateral. You know, there is 320 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 3: a reason why audiences don't think of them is because 321 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 3: they're a bit like those lateral thinking puzzles where you've 322 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 3: made assumptions and trapped yourself in a in a little box. 323 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 3: I think that's helpful. So I think those are the 324 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:32,199 Speaker 3: the sort of obvious strategic ones. There is also with magic. 325 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 3: If you perform a lot, you have to keep an 326 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 3: audience with you, and I think that skill obviously for 327 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,880 Speaker 3: live is useful. But even writing wise, you just think 328 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 3: how can I make how can I keep an audience 329 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 3: with me? And certainly when I'm writing lay books of 330 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 3: non technical books, how do you keep an audience with you? 331 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 3: So I always remember the first time I wrote I 332 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 3: think it was one of the drafts of The Luck Factor. 333 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 3: I'd written something like I don't know. One of my 334 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 3: studies showed that lucky people miss opportunities. Sorry, lucky people 335 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 3: spot opportunities. We brought them into the lab, we got 336 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 3: them to do this, and my editor said, you've just 337 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 3: given away the good too soon. That first line. You've 338 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 3: told us what the experiment was all about, right, instead 339 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 3: of that Right. We did an experiment to discover if 340 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 3: lucky people tended to spot opportunities, and the results were astonishing, 341 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 3: And now you're hooked. Now you're like, oh, what did 342 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 3: you do? And it's a very simple thing, but you 343 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 3: suddenly realize that often as writers or speakers, we tell 344 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 3: people the answer and then we explain the answer, and 345 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 3: you think it's way better to hook people. And magicians 346 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 3: are good at that kind of thinking. 347 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 2: We'll be back soon with Richard talking about some other 348 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 2: ways he uses magic. 349 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: To improve his work as a psychologist. 350 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 2: If you're looking for more tips to improve the way 351 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 2: that you work. I write a short fortnightly newsletter that 352 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 2: contains three cool things that I've discovered that helped me 353 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 2: work better, ranging from software and gadgets that I'm loving 354 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 2: through the interesting research findings. You can sign up for 355 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 2: that at Howiwork dot code. That's how I Work dot co. 356 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 2: What are some other principles that you've learned as a 357 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 2: magician and mastered it as a magician that you've found 358 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 2: have been really useful in making your other work, your 359 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 2: main work more engaging. 360 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,679 Speaker 3: I mean, so it's tactical because I do work on 361 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 3: the psychology of magic, so obviously you have to know 362 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 3: magic to do that. So they've had one of the 363 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 3: most successful things, which is the Quacology YouTube channel, which 364 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 3: started really early within two years of YouTube being out there, 365 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 3: and we did it just because it was a fun 366 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 3: way of sharing content, but certainly weren't doing it for money. 367 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 3: And that's another big driver on this is I always 368 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 3: think you can tell passion projects from projects the person 369 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 3: getting paid for and doesn't really want to do it. 370 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 3: It has a flavor and you can tell, you know 371 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 3: with it. I don't know what it is, but within 372 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 3: seconds of somebody starting to give a talk, you can 373 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 3: tell where they want to be there or not, and 374 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 3: if they don't want to be there, you start to think, well, 375 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 3: I'd rather it wasn't as well, so because it's hard 376 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 3: when you're giving the same talk again and again and 377 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 3: again and again, and so one of the tips actually 378 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 3: actually comes from magician. I shouldn't re' is a very 379 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 3: famous magician, but I wouldn't say who that. The problem 380 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 3: you've got as a speaker is you're going to walk 381 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 3: out and give this talk. In fact, what I'm doing 382 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 3: at the weekend, doing the Lucky Talk, I've been doing 383 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 3: that talk for twenty something years. You have to walk 384 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 3: out and it has to feel to that audience like 385 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 3: this is the first time you've given it and you're 386 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,719 Speaker 3: giving it for them. And I said to my friend, 387 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 3: is magician, how do you cultivate that actor? You're doing 388 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 3: your act twice a day, And they said, it's really straightforward. 389 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 3: I stand in the wings and I tell myself the truth, 390 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 3: and the truth is that one day I won't be 391 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 3: doing this. I'll be too old, or the audience won't 392 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 3: turn up, or I'll have an accident or whatever it is. 393 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 3: I won't want it. One day, I will not be 394 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 3: doing this, And he said, I let the sadness of 395 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,640 Speaker 3: that go into my bones, and then I think it's 396 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 3: not today though, and I walk out and that I 397 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 3: do that now. I do it because you and that 398 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 3: keeps you in that moment, because you won't be anything 399 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 3: you do, but it's writing books or making videos where 400 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,439 Speaker 3: I will not be doing it forever. There'll come a 401 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,679 Speaker 3: day when I'm not doing it. And we all assume 402 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 3: these things are going to continue. They won't. They won't. 403 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 3: So live in the moment and enjoy at that moment 404 00:21:55,320 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 3: and for a live event that I think carries so 405 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 3: so I think those are all kind of magiciany thinking things. 406 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 3: Magicians tend to be quite a thoughtful lot. 407 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 2: I love that advice from that other magician. It's quite stoic. Yeah, 408 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 2: are there any other things that you do? Because I 409 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 2: feel like I can absolutely relate to that challenge. There's 410 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 2: a particular keynote that I don't know. I've probably delivered 411 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 2: over a hundred times in the last couple of years, 412 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 2: and there are definitely days where I wake up and 413 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 2: I'm like, oh gosh, I have to deliver this again. 414 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 2: And I'm not feeling it. What else do you do? 415 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, A few things I do. One is I never 416 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 3: ever ever use a single note ever. I never ever 417 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 3: ever have a single note in terms of any kind 418 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 3: of structure or script. It's on the power I use 419 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 3: PowerPoint slides a lot, but they're chunked, so I've got 420 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 3: sort of ten minute chunks of material, and often I 421 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 3: change it during the actual talk depending on what the 422 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 3: audience is like. Some audiences are faster, some are slower. 423 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 3: Some you sort of think, oh okay, and so I 424 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 3: changed the talk a little bit in these chunks. I 425 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 3: never have a note because I hate the idea of 426 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 3: looking down, so I always look looking down at elector 427 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 3: or at table. I am astonished how quickly ten one 428 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 3: hundred thousand and three thousand people become one person. It's astonishing. 429 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 3: So when I'm in the wings and maybe it's a 430 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 3: big gig and it's a thousand people say, you think, 431 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 3: oh my good, it's a thousand people, And I don't 432 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 3: think that. I think they're going to become one person. 433 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 3: And it's my job to bring them together and just 434 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 3: to talk to that one person, to find out who 435 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 3: I'm speaking to, and then to talk to them, because 436 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,400 Speaker 3: that's how conversation, because otherwise you've got a thousand people, 437 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 3: you couldn't possibly do it. But they gel they become 438 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 3: one person. But I don't know who that person is yet, 439 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 3: and they probably don't know either until we've started that conversation. 440 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 3: So hopefully they're going to gell into a lovely, fun person, 441 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 3: but sometimes they don't. But either way, it's one person 442 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 3: for me in my head. My other thing which I 443 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 3: do should I learned years ago, which you do with slides. 444 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 3: I use PowerPoint slides a lot. My first three PowerPoint 445 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 3: slides are all identical except for a tiny colored dot 446 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 3: in the corner, which I only really I'm looking at. 447 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 3: So as I'm doing my opening bit, I'm moving through 448 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 3: those slides and I can see that color dot changing. 449 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 3: That way, I know the slides are working, because my 450 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 3: nightmare is to set up for the talk, press the 451 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 3: button and nothing happens. So I know, and that's all 452 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 3: magic thinking. It's all the secret stuff, so it's smooth. 453 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 3: If those slides aren't changing, then I I could just 454 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 3: talk to the audience and say to the tech people, 455 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 3: I don't know it's slide to changeing I haven't set 456 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 3: up for the start of the thing. Now. 457 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 2: I've often had goals to learn magic tricks, and I 458 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 2: remember the last time I had Adam Grant on the show, 459 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 2: I actually tried to get some advice from him because 460 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 2: I'd set this goal where I was going to spend 461 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 2: eight weeks and learn a new trick every. 462 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 1: Week for eight weeks and I. 463 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 2: Didn't meet that, and Adam said to me. I remember, 464 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 2: he said, I think you've got it wrong. I think 465 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 2: you want to maybe learn a new skill every week, 466 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 2: and that way you can actually unlock hundreds of tricks. 467 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 2: And I thought that was great advice, but I didn't 468 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 2: apply it. So I'm wondering, Richard, can you give me 469 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 2: some advice, And also for any listeners that are listening 470 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 2: to I guess like the power of magic and how 471 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 2: it's really made you think differently around your work, like 472 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 2: for someone that doesn't even know what slide of hand is, Like, 473 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 2: where do you start if you want to learn some magic? 474 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, there's loads of beginners books out there. Now 475 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 3: there's loads of stuff on YouTube, so it's much easier 476 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 3: than it was in my day. The problem you will 477 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 3: run up against is that if thet's suppose you learn 478 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 3: a very simple card trick, which might be your easiest thing. 479 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 3: I cannot perform for friends. I do not understand what 480 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 3: that contract is. I like my friends. I'm honest with 481 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 3: my friends. If I show them something and they go, 482 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 3: that's great, how did you do it? And I go, 483 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:35,880 Speaker 3: I can't tell you. I do not know what space 484 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 3: I'm in, what world I'm in with my friends, so 485 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 3: I just go, well, thanks, then great, love it. So 486 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 3: I find it very difficult to perform for friends on stage. 487 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,440 Speaker 3: It's fine because the whole contract is different. I don't 488 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 3: know those people. That's all fine. So then it comes 489 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 3: down to what are you giving people? Are you just 490 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 3: giving them a puzzle they can't solve, or was one 491 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 3: magician famously referred to a stone in their shoe, which 492 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 3: is that the more they think about it, the more 493 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 3: it annoys them because they can't figure out how it's done. Well, 494 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 3: that's not a great gift. Or are you giving them 495 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 3: this moment of magic where something impossible appears to happen, 496 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 3: and why would you want them to have that experience? 497 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,119 Speaker 3: And then you get into what magic is actually about, 498 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 3: which is those experiences not I interviewed a very very 499 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 3: experienced magician many many years ago, and he came up 500 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 3: this picture of him doing his first show at age 501 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,880 Speaker 3: about seven or eight, and I said, is this your 502 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,360 Speaker 3: first performance? And he went, oh, no, no, no, that's 503 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 3: not performance. I was just showing off. I said, what's 504 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 3: the difference. He said, performers show off for their own ego, 505 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 3: so everyone goes, you're wonderful. A performance is about the audience. 506 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 3: And I'm a friend of mine, Richmond Dougal has got 507 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 3: this lovely thing about what do you want an audience 508 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 3: to say to you after the show? And they said, 509 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 3: most performers, magicians want people to go, you were great. 510 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 3: And he said that's the worst thing that someone can say. 511 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 3: What they should what you should aim for, is the 512 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 3: person coming up to you and saying thank you, you 513 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 3: gave me something. And again that's magic thinkings and the 514 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 3: same you know, when we give talks, an audience should 515 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 3: be not be coming up and going you were great. 516 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 3: They should be coming up and going thank you. And 517 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 3: in which case, how do you structure a talk so 518 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 3: you're giving people something not all about you? And these 519 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 3: are I think helpful things for speakers. 520 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 2: Now, this next question might be, you know, the equivalent 521 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 2: of who's your favorite child? But is there a favorite 522 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 2: experiment that you've done in your career? I feel like 523 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 2: you've done so many, and there are so many brilliant ones. 524 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 3: Looking through the lucky people, unlucky people looking through the 525 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 3: newspaper and not seeing the half page ads the opportunities 526 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 3: in there. So the lucky ones spotted and the unlucky 527 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 3: ones didn't. You know I did that in I think 528 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 3: two thousand, that's twenty three years, twenty two years ago. 529 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 3: I'm still talking about it. So it's hard not to 530 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 3: think that so Search the World's Funniest Joke was so 531 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 3: enjoyable because it was completely insane and got us into 532 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 3: so many ridiculous situations, the ghost hunting stuff. You know, 533 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 3: we got to to stay at royal palaces and look 534 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 3: for ghosts of why people had ghostly experiences, and that 535 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 3: still comes up all the time. So I think all 536 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 3: and I think it's got a memory associated with it. 537 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 3: But what's funny about all those experiments where I talk 538 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 3: about them so I just did, is that they become 539 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 3: whatever that was twenty seconds where the actual experiments were, 540 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 3: you know, three or four months on any other them. 541 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 3: So normally the actual doing is not that much fun, 542 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 3: but the looking back and summarizing them is you sort 543 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 3: of we know that. What you do when you go 544 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 3: on holiday is you know, you have terrible delays at 545 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 3: the airport, But actually when you look back on the holiday, 546 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 3: you edit all that out and you just concentrate on 547 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 3: the positive stuff. And I think I do that with 548 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 3: the experiments. So I think those ones I just like ideas. 549 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 3: I'm not that keen and actually running the experiments. I 550 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 3: love ideas and where ideas come from. So often it's 551 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 3: just the joy of thinking, oh, yeah, we could do that. 552 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 3: The actual doing of it is a bit like the 553 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 3: delay at the airport for me. 554 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 2: And finally, Richard, for people that want to consume more 555 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 2: of the great work that you are putting out into 556 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 2: the world, what is the best way for people to 557 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 2: do that? 558 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 3: A lot of it's online, so the Quacology YouTube channel 559 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 3: has got all the videos on I'm on Twitter at 560 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 3: Richard Wiseman. I've got a website with the links to 561 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 3: some of the work and so on. I still think, fundamentally, 562 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 3: just come and listen to one of the talks. It's 563 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 3: the liveness that I enjoy more than anything else, and 564 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 3: that's when it can kind of get quite silly and 565 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 3: fun and so on. But the stuff is online and 566 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 3: people are very kind a sort of supporting that work 567 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 3: over twenty almost thirty years now, and so thank you. 568 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 3: If you have sort of listened or watched or bought 569 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 3: a book or anything, thank you very much. It's very 570 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 3: very kind of you. It's very much appreciated. 571 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: Do you have any plans to come to Australia and 572 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: do a talk over here. 573 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 3: I've been there a couple of times and had fun. 574 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 3: Not at the moment, but it's a great place. And 575 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 3: when I go, I went. I went all over for 576 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 3: a book tour, and then last time I was in Sydney, 577 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 3: which was lots of fun. And I've just teamed up 578 00:31:58,480 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 3: with a friend of mine. We did some magic shit 579 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 3: in Melbourne. I wasn't there, they did the shows, but 580 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 3: we put them together. So yeah, no, I'm more than 581 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 3: up for it. I will. I'll probably go by boat, 582 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 3: but just because I then arrived with a lot of stories, 583 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 3: a lot of very fed up passengers as well, which 584 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 3: so please stop showing us magic tricks. It's been a 585 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 3: long voyage. 586 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: I would definitely want to be on that boat. 587 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 2: Well, Richard, it's been such a delight to talk to 588 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 2: you after reading your work for I don't know easily 589 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 2: over a decade. It's just been such a joy to 590 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 2: connect and hear about how you approach your work and 591 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 2: the quirky things that you think about. So thank you 592 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 2: so much for your time. 593 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 3: My pleasure. Thank you very much for inviting me on. 594 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 2: So you know, the thing that stuck with me most 595 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 2: from this interview with Richard is what he was saying 596 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 2: about his magician friend and what he thinks about when 597 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 2: he's designing a show, and what he wants people to 598 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 2: say to him at the end. So I've been deep 599 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 2: in the design of a new keynote speech and that 600 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 2: is exactly where I started. I took Richard's advice and 601 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 2: I thought, what do I want people to come up 602 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 2: and say to me at the end. And that has 603 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 2: proved so helpful in just keeping me laser focused with 604 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 2: what needs to go in the keynote to achieve that 605 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 2: outcome and what can be left on the cutting room floor. 606 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to today's show. I 607 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 2: hope that you found it helpful and got at least 608 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 2: one strategy that you might try applying in your life, maybe. 609 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: Today or maybe in the next few weeks. 610 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 2: And if you're enjoying How I Work, I would be 611 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 2: so grateful if you could take the five or ten 612 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 2: seconds it will probably take to leave a review wherever 613 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 2: you're listening to this podcast from. 614 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: That might be a star rating or writing a few words, but. 615 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 2: I read every single one of the reviews that comes through, 616 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,439 Speaker 2: and I am so deeply grateful for everybody that takes 617 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 2: the time to do so. 618 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 3: So thank you. 619 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 2: Thank you for sharing part of your day with me 620 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 2: by listening to How I Work. 621 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: If you're keen for. 622 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 2: More tips on how to work better, connect with me 623 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,800 Speaker 2: via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy to find. Just 624 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 2: search for Amantha Imba. How I Work was recorded on 625 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 2: the traditional land of the Warrenery people, part of the 626 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 2: cool And Nation. I am so grateful for being able 627 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 2: to work and live on this beautiful land and I 628 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 2: want to pay my respects to Elder's past, present and emerging. 629 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,840 Speaker 2: How I Work is produced by Inventium with production support 630 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 2: from Dead Set Studios. The producer for this episode was 631 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,839 Speaker 2: Liam Riordan, and thank you to Martin Nimba who did 632 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 2: the audio mix and makes everything sound better than it 633 00:34:58,280 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 2: would have otherwise.