Speaker 1: You've got ten minutes between now and your next meeting.
Speaker 1: You probably can't achieve anything with that time, so you
Speaker 1: may as well scroll through your social media or do
Speaker 1: a bit of online shopping. But stop right there, because
Speaker 1: this short window of time is actually a great opportunity
Speaker 1: for a micro habit. Most people think that if it's small,
Speaker 1: it's not worth doing. But Holly Ransom has built an
Speaker 1: enormous career by intentionally squeezing every second out of her day.
Speaker 1: Give Holly ten minutes and she is going to do
Speaker 1: an energy audit and fill those ten minutes with something productive.
Speaker 1: And she needs to because for Holly, no two weeks
Speaker 1: look the same. As a writer, fulbright scholar, and CEO,
Speaker 1: Holly has delivered a peace charter to the Dalai Lama
Speaker 1: was Sir Richard Branson's nominee for Wired Magazine's Smart List
Speaker 1: of Future Game Changes to Watch, and she was also
Speaker 1: awarded the US Embassy's Eleanor Roosevelt Award for Leadership Excellence
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen, and Holly was also the co chair
Speaker 1: of the g twenty Youth Summit in twenty fourteen. Is
Speaker 1: the youngest director to have been appointed to an AFL
Speaker 1: Club and was also personally requested by Barack Obama to
Speaker 1: interview him on stage back in twenty eighteen. She's pretty impressive.
Speaker 1: So how does Holly use microhabits as a secret weapon,
Speaker 1: and how has she attracted some of the world's most
Speaker 1: successful people like Richard Branson to be her mentor? And
Speaker 1: how does Holly implement phone free Fridays. My name is
Speaker 1: doctor Amantha Imbat. I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder
Speaker 1: of behavioral science consultancy Inventim. And this is how I
Speaker 1: work a show about how to help you do your
Speaker 1: best work. So let's start by hearing about how Holly
Speaker 1: goes about setting goals for herself.
Speaker 2: Oh.
Speaker 3: I love it, love when anyone's at the point of
Speaker 3: thinking about goals. I firstly am so excited anytime anyone
Speaker 3: talks about it because I think it's such a powerful
Speaker 3: tool to be able to get whatever it is that
Speaker 3: we're seeking to try and achieve. And for me, normally
Speaker 3: I go about an end of year goal setting process,
Speaker 3: so I'll often spend some time at the end of
Speaker 3: the year, which is nice and reflective. Some people do
Speaker 3: it at the ends of financial years as well, but
Speaker 3: there's just to reflect on whatever period I've been working
Speaker 3: to so I'm typically doing a year, and I'll think
Speaker 3: about what were the highs, what were the lows, what
Speaker 3: were the things I learned, what are the things, if anything,
Speaker 3: I'd like to change moving forward, And so that's often
Speaker 3: I think that reflection is a really important part of
Speaker 3: the goal setting piece, because if we don't do that,
Speaker 3: it's really hard to get clear on or to have
Speaker 3: goals grounded in some sense of the context of what's
Speaker 3: just been. So after I've done that, I'll often draft
Speaker 3: up goals and I typically try to do them in
Speaker 3: a couple of different facets of my life, so I'm
Speaker 3: not just thinking about goals professionally. I think about goals
Speaker 3: in the context ofationships, my health, and fitness, trying to
Speaker 3: be really well rounded. And that's something that I certainly
Speaker 3: didn't do as well ten years ago as I've come
Speaker 3: to learn the importance of certainly nowadays. And then after
Speaker 3: I've kind of set those goals and I typically one
Speaker 3: of the things I definitely used to do is write
Speaker 3: a lot of goals. I'd be one of those people
Speaker 3: that would have like a spreadsheet. It's so embarrassing. I
Speaker 3: sort of cring reflecting back on it even as I
Speaker 3: tell you this story, and I've come to understand the
Speaker 3: power of having a few that you focus on, and
Speaker 3: typically you know a handful of those stretch goals, and
Speaker 3: then ones that are more kind of within sight. So
Speaker 3: I'll often have one or two things that are really
Speaker 3: pine the sky I'm aiming for if I managed to
Speaker 3: shoot the lights out that might come true, and then
Speaker 3: things that I guess conceivable but are still a really
Speaker 3: great stretch result within things that I'm already working on,
Speaker 3: no I'm committed to, So that's my process. I then
Speaker 3: sit and reflect on them, so I typically kind of
Speaker 3: put them somewhere I see them, And that's one of
Speaker 3: the biggest things I'd stressed goal setting. It's not just
Speaker 3: the power of thinking a goal. It's taking it a
Speaker 3: step further and writing it down. It's then taking it
Speaker 3: a step further than that and putting it somewhere you
Speaker 3: see them every day. And then I think the fourth
Speaker 3: step that even cements that with more power is sharing
Speaker 3: it with people that you love and that you care
Speaker 3: about you in order that they can help you stay
Speaker 3: accountable for them. So that framework that we wrap around
Speaker 3: our goals is actually I think one of the most
Speaker 3: important parts of making sure goals work for us.
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear an example of maybe one of
Speaker 1: your career goals for this year that we're in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty one, which we all thought would be such a
Speaker 1: smooth sailing year with COVID behind us, but no such luck. Like,
Speaker 1: what's an example of a goal that you set this year?
Speaker 1: And I'd love to know how that came to be
Speaker 1: a goal? Like, how did you I even identify that
Speaker 1: that was something that mattered to you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, great question.
Speaker 3: So one of the things I'm working at the moment,
Speaker 3: I've just launched my first book, The Leading Edge, and
Speaker 3: that book is really regarding a new approach, a new language,
Speaker 3: a new set of examples on leadership. So it's all
Speaker 3: about wanting to disrupt the way that we talk about
Speaker 3: and teach leadership and doing so.
Speaker 2: Through sharing these diverse stories.
Speaker 3: And case studies and the toolkit of leaders who are
Speaker 3: out there being the change that they want to see
Speaker 3: in the world. And I think one of the things
Speaker 3: that's emerged from not only the process of writing that book,
Speaker 3: but then being in conversation with people at yourself menthor
Speaker 3: and others who are passionate about, you know, that development
Speaker 3: getting the best out of ourselves individually and collectively. Is
Speaker 3: that there's support structures that we need to build around that,
Speaker 3: because it's not just about the ideas, it's how do
Speaker 3: we create the environments that support the implementation. And so
Speaker 3: for me, you know, a new kind of professional goal
Speaker 3: that's come out of that, and I'm still in the
Speaker 3: process of kind of calibrating and seeking mentors and kind
Speaker 3: of advice on is what can I do now that
Speaker 3: that book is launched, that those ideas are out in
Speaker 3: the world, what's kind of the business model and the
Speaker 3: support structures that I can help build for people that
Speaker 3: can assist with bringing these ideas to life and that
Speaker 3: can help us democratize access to leadership development. That's what
Speaker 3: I'm really passionate about. So that's a new goal at
Speaker 3: the moment that I'm working on that emerged effectively out
Speaker 3: of having more questions and observations at the end of
Speaker 3: the process of actually writing the book.
Speaker 1: And do you quantify your goals, like is there a
Speaker 1: target attached to what you've just described?
Speaker 2: There not at the moment.
Speaker 3: I mean, sometimes I find targets are really helpful. This
Speaker 3: is more embryonic at the moment in terms of the
Speaker 3: way that that's formulating up. I think maybe it's at
Speaker 3: the moment it's a purpose that's becoming a goal as
Speaker 3: opposed to being something that I've got a really concrete
Speaker 3: sense of how to quantify.
Speaker 2: And I think that's a really important point.
Speaker 3: Like when we get taught smart goals at school, we
Speaker 3: know that it needs to be specific and measurable and
Speaker 3: attainable and all that stuff, and often that comes with
Speaker 3: being able to quantify something. Sometimes it's better to have
Speaker 3: a landing target, so like a rough area that we're
Speaker 3: aiming for, as opposed to you know, a yes, no
Speaker 3: light switch where if we either make the goal or
Speaker 3: we don't make the goal. So sometimes binary goals can
Speaker 3: be a little bit all or nothing. Doesn't mean you
Speaker 3: don't shoot for them, but it might means you want
Speaker 3: to have some other ones that you know, there's a
Speaker 3: you know, that whole notion of if you shoot for
Speaker 3: the moon, even if you land amongst the stars, that's
Speaker 3: a great outcome. So for me, that will be something
Speaker 3: I might quantify up in time and at the moment,
Speaker 3: like for example, with the book you know, for me,
Speaker 3: the goal was writing the book. It was not then
Speaker 3: about selling X number of copies, because I'm a big
Speaker 3: believer in focusing your goals on what you can control,
Speaker 3: and in that instance, I can control writing the best
Speaker 3: possible book. I can doing as much work to finesse it,
Speaker 3: to ensure that it's got really rich stories, it's written
Speaker 3: in a compelling way, you know, putting it through the
Speaker 3: lens and perspective of friends and colleagues who read it
Speaker 3: to offer their feedback and taking that on board. And
Speaker 3: then once it's down in the world, I cannot control
Speaker 3: how the world receives it. So I've done my best
Speaker 3: on writing the product, and the goal was getting out
Speaker 3: the best possible book can on hard I could release,
Speaker 3: and now the world will do what the world wants
Speaker 3: with it.
Speaker 1: I think that's really interesting and that's quite helpful for me.
Speaker 1: I'm midway through, maybe a little bit over midway through
Speaker 1: or first draft of a book that's been released in
Speaker 1: July next year, and yeah, and I'm trying to think
Speaker 1: about the next twelve months and certainly finish the book
Speaker 1: and submit that on time.
Speaker 3: Well, they feel like huge goals, don't they Like, even
Speaker 3: in of itself.
Speaker 1: I know, absolutely, But then it's interesting because I was
Speaker 1: thinking ahead to mid next year and going, well, what's
Speaker 1: my goal like when it comes to selling the book
Speaker 1: and promoting the book through my publisher? And it's interesting,
Speaker 1: So how have you then thought about that in terms
Speaker 1: of going, Okay, well, this is in my control. This
Speaker 1: is not in my control. But you obviously want the
Speaker 1: book to have impact, otherwise you wouldn't have written it.
Speaker 1: So how do you then conceptualize goals around that.
Speaker 3: One of my goals has been about how do I
Speaker 3: get like I'm quite focused now on how do I
Speaker 3: get the community that is sort of already because these
Speaker 3: juggernauts that come with publishing books and you'll know this
Speaker 3: all too well, but it's sort of It does a
Speaker 3: lot of the I guess marketing for you, and I
Speaker 3: think to some degree people then see that and they
Speaker 3: self identify as that being a sort of content or
Speaker 3: topic that they want to engage with or they don't.
Speaker 3: And you hope that to be as broad a field
Speaker 3: as it possibly can be. But I think my goal
Speaker 3: is then around how do I try and meet those
Speaker 3: people who are finding the material and wanting to engage
Speaker 3: and help them take the ideas forward. So one of
Speaker 3: the things that we've shared what the day of the
Speaker 3: book released is we're turning the book into an interactive
Speaker 3: challenge that people who are reading it can sign up
Speaker 3: to start on September one. And so a lot of
Speaker 3: my work at the moment is actually going into taking
Speaker 3: the content and building it into a model where people
Speaker 3: can start to experiment and play with the ideas. And
Speaker 3: so my goal is, now, can I get a small
Speaker 3: percentage of that population who are reading the book to
Speaker 3: on the journey of trying to implement the book. And
Speaker 3: so that's where my thinking is moved to and my
Speaker 3: focus area is moved to. And I think the other
Speaker 3: one is just I mean, and it sounds trite to
Speaker 3: say it, but I'm sure you'll feel this about your
Speaker 3: material too.
Speaker 2: Every time you get an email or a.
Speaker 3: Bit of feedback, and I've been lucky in the handful
Speaker 3: of days that's been out for a couple of people
Speaker 3: who have already generously taken the time to do this.
Speaker 3: Every time you get an email or a note from
Speaker 3: someone saying, oh my gosh, this really impacted me, or
Speaker 3: I just wanted to tell you how much reading this
Speaker 3: particular chapter has really given me ideas that have challenged
Speaker 3: the way I'm thinking about the way I'm leading, or
Speaker 3: the business I'm running, or whatever it is. It truly
Speaker 3: emotionally impacts you. And that is why you want this
Speaker 3: book out in the world, and the hope that one
Speaker 3: person is able to further empower what they're doing by
Speaker 3: virtue of something that you've shared and written about. So
Speaker 3: the goal for me is is hoping it to find
Speaker 3: those people, but then also helping, i think, mobilize the
Speaker 3: learning that's in the book into this kind of active
Speaker 3: community and supporting them on their learning journey because they're
Speaker 3: the people that are hungry to go and do the work.
Speaker 3: They're buying the book, they're resonating with the ideas, and
Speaker 3: that's where my goals will focus at the moment.
Speaker 1: I like that way of framing it, and I'm curious,
Speaker 1: like the with the emails that you receive from people
Speaker 1: that your work is having an impact on, Like, I
Speaker 1: can definitely relate to that, and I get a lot
Speaker 1: of feedback, particularly from listeners of the podcast, but I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm very quick to just go, oh, that's
Speaker 1: so lovely, archive, Like what do you do with those notes,
Speaker 1: Do you do anything with them, or sit and reflect
Speaker 1: on them for a while? What's your approach.
Speaker 3: It's an interesting comment to think about more broadly, like
Speaker 3: in terms of just how we take stock of those moments,
Speaker 3: because I think, particularly in the busyness of the world
Speaker 3: as it is right now, it's really easy to your
Speaker 3: point there, to kind of not come up for air
Speaker 3: and just keep powering through. I think they always impact me,
Speaker 3: like in the moment of reading, particularly those that are
Speaker 3: really specific or where the nature of what someone's written
Speaker 3: is obviously really heartfelt and really considered, not just hey,
Speaker 3: great read or.
Speaker 2: Something like that.
Speaker 3: Don't get me wrong, that's so wonderful to hear too,
Speaker 3: But I think particularly those where someone has really engaged
Speaker 3: or it's very clear that an idea or a story
Speaker 3: has really profoundly had an impact or shaped them, and
Speaker 3: that's very clear in the way they write the note.
Speaker 3: I find them particularly powerful, and you know, putting them
Speaker 3: in that folder that is kind of not only something
Speaker 3: that you can go back to as a reminder, but
Speaker 3: also in those moments where you know it all gets
Speaker 3: a bit hard, or you're feeling like maybe there's more
Speaker 3: naysayers than there are supporters.
Speaker 2: You know, we all have those moments right.
Speaker 3: Where we're challenged or feeling overwhelmed or not quite sure
Speaker 3: how it's all going to come together next.
Speaker 2: I think I use them in those moments. I'm a
Speaker 2: words person.
Speaker 3: So one of the things we talk about in the
Speaker 3: book is this concept of love languages, and so I
Speaker 3: am one of those people where of the five definitely
Speaker 3: words mean the most to me of anything. So it
Speaker 3: is really significant to me just in general sense. I
Speaker 3: know that's not true for everyone who are maybe more
Speaker 3: about acts of service or gifts or other love languages,
Speaker 3: but so it does definitely have an impact, and I
Speaker 3: think they are something I find myself coming back to
Speaker 3: as a as a way of taking stock and sort
Speaker 3: of I guess already energizing in those moments where I'm
Speaker 3: feeling a little bit flatter, a little bit challenged.
Speaker 1: So do you file those notes somewhere so you can
Speaker 1: dip into Yeah you do? Hey, right, that's super cool.
Speaker 1: It reminds me. I had Professor Scott Sunshine on the
Speaker 1: show quite a while ago. He co wrote Joy at
Speaker 1: Work with Murray Kondo, the person that helped many people
Speaker 1: clean out their homes. Yes, and he talked about having
Speaker 1: a spark joy folder literally on his desktop, so he
Speaker 1: would you know, put like, you know, positive feedback from
Speaker 1: like journal papers that have been reviewed, you know, nice
Speaker 1: feedback from students, those sorts of things. So it would
Speaker 1: be this folder and it would be ever changing. He'd
Speaker 1: updated quite regularly that he would just go to when
Speaker 1: he wanted to feel a little bit of joy in
Speaker 1: his life, like, Yeah, what do you do with this fold?
Speaker 1: I see it's a digital folder.
Speaker 2: Or no.
Speaker 3: It's interesting because I mean I'm saying this and I
Speaker 3: should have you know, said it probably in answer to
Speaker 3: your first question, but it's probably that example that just
Speaker 3: made me think about it. You know, I'm sitting talking
Speaker 3: to you from my office and I've got a little
Speaker 3: window in my office and along the window so is
Speaker 3: a row of cards from really important people in my
Speaker 3: life that have, you know, messages of support and encouragement
Speaker 3: that mean a lot to me. And every time I
Speaker 3: look at the card, I know who it's from. And
Speaker 3: you know, there's probably a couple times a week where
Speaker 3: I end up inadvertently reading one or two of them
Speaker 3: more or intentionally going and picking it up and on
Speaker 3: my desk looking at me every day is a letter
Speaker 3: from my partner that just means the world to me.
Speaker 3: And so that's something that I read every day in
Speaker 3: terms of taking stock and reminding me why I do
Speaker 3: what I do. So they're physical in the way that
Speaker 3: they impact my environment as much as they are you
Speaker 3: know in that folder in my email or you know,
Speaker 3: on the desktop for that matter, in that I can
Speaker 3: go back to them as a broader archive as well.
Speaker 2: So it's a little bit of both.
Speaker 3: I actually hadn't thought about the physical piece, but I'm
Speaker 3: looking around my office going, oh, I've set it up
Speaker 3: that way too.
Speaker 1: That is that is super cool. That's so funny. It's
Speaker 1: actually it's the opposite of something I did many years
Speaker 1: ago when I was I was like twenty two or
Speaker 1: twenty three, and I was in the middle of my
Speaker 1: PhD and procrastinating.
Speaker 3: I love how casually you just roll that out twenty
Speaker 3: two twenty three doing my PhD.
Speaker 1: I that's a humble brag, isn't it. My god bet,
Speaker 1: it's just because like I was, you know, not socially
Speaker 1: cool enough to take a gap year and go traveling.
Speaker 1: I was just a study nerd. But I was also
Speaker 1: like I was working as a musician at the time
Speaker 1: and trying to get a record deal as a really
Speaker 1: good way to procrastinate from writing a you know, eighty
Speaker 1: thousand word thesis. And so I remember I had this
Speaker 1: goal where I wrote to a bunch of record labels
Speaker 1: and sent off my demo, and I had this goal
Speaker 1: that I would want to cover this particular wall in
Speaker 1: my bedroom in rejection letters before I could even hope
Speaker 1: to get an acceptance of a record deal. So kind
Speaker 1: of the opposite, like a rejection wall, like.
Speaker 3: Almost a red rad to the bull, though, like in
Speaker 3: the sense of sort of you know, keeping stock of
Speaker 3: like everyone like that's a little you know, you read
Speaker 3: stories and you know, obviously the famous one is JK Rowling,
Speaker 3: but I was reading one about the I think it
Speaker 3: was the producer or the writer who wrote the TV
Speaker 3: show Pose, which has just finished four seasons, where it
Speaker 3: took one hundred and twenty nine no's to get it. Yes,
Speaker 3: for anyone to read the screenplay and think about making it,
Speaker 3: so I can see the motivational factor of like if
Speaker 3: I just keep at it, and there's somebody to be
Speaker 3: said for that, right, Like that whole notion that ninety
Speaker 3: percent of life is just showing up, like if you
Speaker 3: just keep at it consistently, and if that's a motivational force,
Speaker 3: which I think for a lot of people it is,
Speaker 3: that idea of I'm going to prove you wrong. We'll
Speaker 3: see how you feel when I one day get the yes. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I see the power of that for sure.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I also see the power of actually putting
Speaker 1: positive things around as well. Anyway, Now I know that mentors.
Speaker 1: You've mentioned mentors, and I know that they have played
Speaker 1: such a pivotal role in your life and your career. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I want to know, like, how do you start
Speaker 1: those mentor relationships? How have they started for you?
Speaker 3: I always feel like this topic needs a disclaimer, right
Speaker 3: because when we use the word mentor, like I feel
Speaker 3: like so many people have this baggage associated with that
Speaker 3: word because it either like it immediately takes us to
Speaker 3: a really formal notion of what a mentor is, or
Speaker 3: we all remember that one time, at some point in
Speaker 3: our life, often in a company where we took our
Speaker 3: first job or something we got matched in that you know,
Speaker 3: internal mentoring program and someone just jammed you together with
Speaker 3: someone else and like that was meant to work and
Speaker 3: I think that's why we've often got to reclaim what
Speaker 3: mentoring is and kind of stuper back and go just
Speaker 3: don't even think about it like that, or you'll probably
Speaker 3: never start. But you're right when it comes to kind
Speaker 3: of the biggest contributions to my growth and development, like absolutely,
Speaker 3: you know, people who've been willing to give up their
Speaker 3: time and share from their life lessons have been like
Speaker 3: just absolutely fundamental to that. So for me, it always
Speaker 3: starts from a place of seeking learning, not seeking mentoring,
Speaker 3: which I think is helpful because it lowers the barrier
Speaker 3: to entry and it takes some of the pressure off
Speaker 3: both sides. All you're asking for originally is half an
Speaker 3: hour or maybe an hour of someone's time, and I
Speaker 3: think it's so important that you know why you're asking
Speaker 3: for it and that you can articulate that to someone.
Speaker 3: I've got people that I would love to meet, but
Speaker 3: I still don't have questions worthy of their time, and
Speaker 3: I won't ask for their time until I've got good
Speaker 3: enough questions. So I think that's really important for people listening,
Speaker 3: Like don't go scatter gun, don't just reach out to
Speaker 3: everyone and anyone saying hey, i'd love you to be
Speaker 3: my mentor think about what am I working on, you know,
Speaker 3: relative to what we were talking about earlier.
Speaker 2: What are my goals?
Speaker 3: What are the gaps maybe in the part of the
Speaker 3: how I'm going to achieve my goals that I still
Speaker 3: don't understand. Who can I go and talk to that
Speaker 3: might be able to help me knit this plan together?
Speaker 3: Or maybe that I deeply admire because they've gone and
Speaker 3: done what I kind of want to do, And maybe
Speaker 3: if I could sit down and learn from them about
Speaker 3: how they did it, I could help, you know, create
Speaker 3: the plan for how I go about making my idea
Speaker 3: or my impact happen as well.
Speaker 2: So go and seek that learning.
Speaker 3: And it's in that conversation if you've got the right
Speaker 3: dynamic that I think there's the opportunity to extend it.
Speaker 3: And what I mean by that is you kind of
Speaker 3: leave those conversations. You go, oh my gosh, I barely
Speaker 3: scratch the surface with this person, Like I have ninety
Speaker 3: more questions I want to ask them. I can't believe
Speaker 3: the time has passed already. And you feel this level
Speaker 3: of connection where they're not patronizing you, there's an openness
Speaker 3: to sharing, so they're prepared to be quite candid and
Speaker 3: honest where you turn around and go geez, I'd really
Speaker 3: get benefit out of a longer or an ongoing conversation
Speaker 3: with this person. And I think in that moment, there's
Speaker 3: the opportunity to go, hey, I would it be possible
Speaker 3: if after I've taken all the advice that you've given
Speaker 3: me today and applied it, if I circle back to
Speaker 3: you with some more question or if I came back
Speaker 3: and asked for a bit more.
Speaker 2: Advice or help. So that would be the way I'd
Speaker 2: approach it.
Speaker 3: To think about learning first and then make sure you've
Speaker 3: got the right dynamic. And it's also very okay if
Speaker 3: someone says no. You don't want someone saying yes that
Speaker 3: then doesn't have the time to be available for you
Speaker 3: when you need it. So don't be worried about that.
Speaker 3: You will find those people, but start by focusing on
Speaker 3: frequently having learning conversations.
Speaker 1: Hello there. We will be back very soon with Holly
Speaker 1: hearing about how she makes that initial request for a
Speaker 1: conversation really stand out given that she's reaching out to
Speaker 1: incredibly busy and high profile people, and we'll also hear
Speaker 1: about why and how Holly does energy audits of herself. Now,
Speaker 1: if you're enjoying how I work, you might enjoy something
Speaker 1: else that I do. So every two weeks, I send, write,
Speaker 1: and send a newsletter about three things that I'm loving.
Speaker 1: So they might be gadgets and software or pieces of
Speaker 1: research that I've come across, or other things that I'm
Speaker 1: really loving. So if you would like to receive that
Speaker 1: in your inbox every couple of weeks, go to howiwork
Speaker 1: dot co. That's how I work dot co and pop
Speaker 1: your email in and you'll get something in your inbox shortly.
Speaker 1: I want to know, though, like, how do you make
Speaker 1: that initial kind of request standout? Because I imagine that,
Speaker 1: like you're someone that's probably inundated with people approaching you
Speaker 1: to be a mentor, So how do you think about
Speaker 1: it in the reverse when you're reaching out to someone
Speaker 1: to make them kind of take notice?
Speaker 2: I guess there's two things.
Speaker 3: I mean, I definitely do a lot of reach outs
Speaker 3: where I don't know people, and so it's a cold
Speaker 3: reach out, but it always helps if someone can make
Speaker 3: the reach out for you. So if you know someone,
Speaker 3: and this is where tools like LinkedIn are really handy,
Speaker 3: and you can work out how your a couple of
Speaker 3: degrees removed from someone. If someone can make that introduction
Speaker 3: for you, then it does become a lot easier to
Speaker 3: at least open a conversation up with that person. I
Speaker 3: think the second thing I'm always conscious of is I'm
Speaker 3: very prepared to wait. I know a lot of the
Speaker 3: people that I'm reaching out to have extraordinarily busy schedules,
Speaker 3: and so I'm more than happy to make a time
Speaker 3: that is six months from now, or to come back
Speaker 3: in a few months after they've finished a busy work
Speaker 3: period or writing period or a project's finished and say, hey,
Speaker 3: just me again, wondering if you might have time available now.
Speaker 3: So I also think it's really important to be respectful
Speaker 3: of the diary of the person that you're reaching out to,
Speaker 3: and the hustle is absolutely on you to do it
Speaker 3: politely and appropriately, but there's no expectation of them doing
Speaker 3: the follow up. You need to be the one that,
Speaker 3: if you're serious about it, you know you won't drop
Speaker 3: off the radar. In three months, you'll be back saying hey,
Speaker 3: you know, I hope you don't mind me. Just wanted
Speaker 3: to see how you're going and whether there's an opportunity
Speaker 3: to get something in the diary in the next month.
Speaker 1: Now, micro breaks and micro habits, I know this is
Speaker 1: something that you think about. Can you talk to me
Speaker 1: first to about micro breaks, what you're doing there to
Speaker 1: manage your energy during the day.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've been obsessed for a long time with this idea.
Speaker 2: Of managing energy, not managing time.
Speaker 3: And at a basic level, I think that starts for
Speaker 3: people with the idea of doing an energy audit and
Speaker 3: actually seeing, you know, in a day to day, in
Speaker 3: a week to week, what is it that energizes you,
Speaker 3: what is it that trains you, And also just being
Speaker 3: conscious of your body's natural rhythm. Some of us are
Speaker 3: naturally mourning people, other of us are absolutely night ours.
Speaker 3: And then thinking about how you match activity to energy.
Speaker 3: So you want to be doing your creative activities or
Speaker 3: things that really require the best of you at times
Speaker 3: where you're high energy, you want to be thinking about
Speaker 3: things that don't require that much energy, maybe getting through
Speaker 3: all those rapid replies to emails and putting that at
Speaker 3: points of the day where you don't necessarily have as
Speaker 3: much energy because you probably don't need as much. And
Speaker 3: then on top of that, there's sort of this really
Speaker 3: encouraging area of science that's sort of saying we have
Speaker 3: actually the found ability through very small interventions to make
Speaker 3: massive changes to our energy. And so one of the
Speaker 3: people I interview my book, doctor Jamie King, is one
Speaker 3: of the pioneers of this space in Australia really looking
Speaker 3: at because I think sometimes the reason we don't manage energy,
Speaker 3: or the reason it's sometimes hard for us to think
Speaker 3: about this, is we always think it has to be
Speaker 3: big to be significant. If I can't go to the
Speaker 3: gym for an hour, it's not worth doing. If I
Speaker 3: can't meditate for twenty minutes and get zen, it's not
Speaker 3: worth doing. Whereas a lot of the science now is saying, actually,
Speaker 3: you can stop and you can take ten proper deep
Speaker 3: breaths and you will see a physiological change. You can
Speaker 3: get up and you can go for a walk, even
Speaker 3: just around the floor of the building, go around the
Speaker 3: block of the house, and you will see a physiological change.
Speaker 3: You can jump up and out on the spot, you know,
Speaker 3: and do jumping jacks and you'll see a change. So
Speaker 3: for me, some of the things I've been starting to
Speaker 3: factor into my days is just how do I take
Speaker 3: some smaller breaks like that. So I absolutely get up
Speaker 3: multiple times a day and go for a walk around
Speaker 3: the block and I'll do when I feel myself hitting
Speaker 3: an energy low, and it's an intervention that takes all
Speaker 3: of five minutes and I come back more energized and
Speaker 3: ready to go.
Speaker 1: Can you talk about, like how do you do an
Speaker 1: energy audit, and like what are some other changes that
Speaker 1: you've made to like how you structure your day and
Speaker 1: when you do certain tasks.
Speaker 3: An energy audit for me is as simple as get
Speaker 3: a notebook and have a page where you just write
Speaker 3: some bullet points of things, being curious about your energy
Speaker 3: and what you observe.
Speaker 2: So I know.
Speaker 3: Naturally I'm a really very much high energy in the morning.
Speaker 3: I absolutely hit a wall in the kind of mid
Speaker 3: to late afternoon. I'm just a no go between about
Speaker 3: like three thirty and five or three and five, like
Speaker 3: it's a really dead zone for me, and then I
Speaker 3: have this incredible burst of energy and kind of the
Speaker 3: mid evening again as well. And so it's changed the
Speaker 3: way that I think about structuring my days because, for example,
Speaker 3: I try to make sure I never get up and
Speaker 3: get straight on an email. And that was something I
Speaker 3: learned from you know Stephen Covey seven Habits of highly
Speaker 3: effective people. You know that learning that difference between urgent
Speaker 3: and important and making sure that the urgent doesn't take
Speaker 3: the place of the important. So when I get up
Speaker 3: and I've got energy to go, I want to be
Speaker 3: putting into things that are important. They're going to be
Speaker 3: stuff that are to do with my goals, that are
Speaker 3: going to help me step towards things that really matter
Speaker 3: to me. They're things that I've got to put a
Speaker 3: lot of thought into. Maybe it's a proposal for a
Speaker 3: new idea. Maybe it's thinking through how I could structure
Speaker 3: up a collaboration with someone I'm really excited about working with.
Speaker 3: But it's not going to be sitting through my emails,
Speaker 3: or it's not going to be choosing to audit my expenses.
Speaker 2: Or something like that.
Speaker 3: You know, they're going to be things I know I
Speaker 3: have to do them absolutely, but I'm going to try
Speaker 3: and do them at points in the day where I've
Speaker 3: got a natural kind of energy low, or I'm not
Speaker 3: needing as much of kind of the energy I bring
Speaker 3: to bear on other topics or need to bring to bear.
Speaker 2: On other topics.
Speaker 3: I think the other thing I've noticed is, you know,
Speaker 3: and this is true of what we've learned for some
Speaker 3: time about attention spans and stuff like that. Like I
Speaker 3: do see that I'm at the end of ninety minutes
Speaker 3: often needing just a little bit of a perk up
Speaker 3: and a reboot. So that's where I've started inserting these
Speaker 3: micro brakes, whether it is as simple as I'm going
Speaker 3: to do ten jump squads, like literally in the room
Speaker 3: I'm still in, just to re energize and shake my
Speaker 3: body awake. Sometimes if it's been a particularly you know,
Speaker 3: intense like cerebral meeting, or I'm just feeling a little
Speaker 3: bit drained mentally, I'll sit there and I'll do ten
Speaker 3: deep breaths, you know where one of those Apple watches
Speaker 3: where it can do them for you, or it can
Speaker 3: guide you through them in terms of the ease of
Speaker 3: doing that. So just finding those little ways of intervening
Speaker 3: in those moments, because all of us have got things
Speaker 3: in the day.
Speaker 2: That do drainers. We can't avoid any of that.
Speaker 3: It's about how we strategize and put these things around
Speaker 3: that so that we can re energize ourselves and come
Speaker 3: out of those loves and we don't need red bulls,
Speaker 3: and you know, the three point thirty eightis snacks and
Speaker 3: things like that to do it, because oftently, all we're
Speaker 3: doing there is is kind of numbing a sensation our
Speaker 3: body is trying to tell us and using kind of
Speaker 3: an artificial way of kind of pushing through it. So
Speaker 3: thinking about how to actually start to be the energy
Speaker 3: for ourselves. It's just been a really profound way that
Speaker 3: I've shifted managing my day and week in the last
Speaker 3: six years probably, and I couldn't be more happy with
Speaker 3: the results, and I couldn't be a bigger believer in
Speaker 3: this idea.
Speaker 1: Now when I think of you, Holly, I'm like, it's
Speaker 1: hard to imagine you having these low energy periods because
Speaker 1: I feel like you're such a high energy, high achieving person.
Speaker 1: But what do you do to switch off or relax?
Speaker 1: Do you have rituals or practices around that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, And it's something I have historically. Like I say,
Speaker 3: this is something that I've learned in my more recent history,
Speaker 3: so the last five or so years. It's definitely not
Speaker 3: something I was all that good add in my sort
Speaker 3: of early twenties, So it's been a learned habit and
Speaker 3: something I've come to understand that if you don't look
Speaker 3: after yourself and you don't really properly recharge that productive
Speaker 3: downtime where you're actually allowing yourself to restore, you're very
Speaker 3: hard to do anything at any timekind of intensity, for
Speaker 3: any serious length of time. And I guess as well
Speaker 3: as a stats on what we see about burnout probably
Speaker 3: suggest a lot of us are struggling with the same thing.
Speaker 3: You know, For me switching off, I've become a lot
Speaker 3: better at it, and I think it's the great intervention
Speaker 3: of my partner.
Speaker 2: We're really good about.
Speaker 3: Not letting work blur into the evenings and really safeguarding
Speaker 3: our weekends, and I think that's been really good, the
Speaker 3: discipline and the accountability we give each other in that
Speaker 3: it doesn't mean every now and again something urgently pops up, sure,
Speaker 3: but on the whole weekends, a weekends weekends of a
Speaker 3: quality time there for friends, there for being active, there
Speaker 3: for getting out and being part of whether it's sport
Speaker 3: or cultural events. We try and make sure that their
Speaker 3: time out so that when we start Monday again, we're
Speaker 3: really hitting the ground running with the energy that we
Speaker 3: need for that week ahead. I think one of the
Speaker 3: other things we've been playing with this year that I've
Speaker 3: found really beneficial is phone free Friday nights, which sounds
Speaker 3: so silly, but that idea of the discipline of switching
Speaker 3: off from a week, putting the phone down at five
Speaker 3: o'clock and not turning it on till Saturday morning, and
Speaker 3: just that absence of notification, that ability to properly switch
Speaker 3: off because the work week isn't continuing to linger into
Speaker 3: your Friday night and then you know, spill over into
Speaker 3: the weekend. I've just really enjoyed that complete disconnect from tech.
Speaker 3: You know, it's only for what it would it be,
Speaker 3: I guess eighteen hours or something like that we really turn.
Speaker 2: It off for. But that's been fantastic.
Speaker 3: So I encourage people to find little ways of putting
Speaker 3: tech breaks into because we've just found that to be
Speaker 3: really beneficial and you just realize how how connected.
Speaker 2: You out of the thing the rest of the time.
Speaker 3: So that ability to properly disconnect has been a great one.
Speaker 1: That's nice thing you've got someone to keep you accountable.
Speaker 1: I like that idea, and like, what are you doing
Speaker 1: with tech? Like are you literally shutting it down and
Speaker 1: locking it away or how do you resist the temptation
Speaker 1: to just go oh, I really wouldn't mind just taking
Speaker 1: a quick chick of email or something like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I mean we' we'd allow ourselves to watch
Speaker 3: TV because that can be part of you know, Friday
Speaker 3: night zone out. But we don't use laptop or phones
Speaker 3: or anything like that. So for me, I just put
Speaker 3: it on airplayed mode, turn it off, and you know it,
Speaker 3: put it or put it on its charger in a
Speaker 3: different rooms. I put it downstairs in the house, disconnected
Speaker 3: from it. Honestly, it's one of those funny things too,
Speaker 3: I actually have found and it's a really interesting thing.
Speaker 2: To be curious about yourself. For people who are up.
Speaker 3: For trying this, I actually find it quite a relief.
Speaker 3: I'm quite happy to turn it off on a Friday night,
Speaker 3: so I don't ever feel this compulsion to go oh,
Speaker 3: I might want to check that. I think I'm like, oh,
Speaker 3: thank gosh, I get to I get the excuse almost
Speaker 3: or I have the discipline of having to put that
Speaker 3: away because I've made a commitment to myself and my
Speaker 3: partner that's what we're doing. So it's an interesting one
Speaker 3: as well, because I think sometimes we don't actually realize
Speaker 3: how much of a great joy or just kind of
Speaker 3: freedom it is to be disconnected for a period of time.
Speaker 3: I mean, Matith, I know you've come for space, like
Speaker 3: you know, that whole community, and that intentional idea of
Speaker 3: you know, disconnecting in order to connect is really quite powerful,
Speaker 3: and we don't often have space for it. I mean,
Speaker 3: how many of us sit in meetings during you know,
Speaker 3: the week where and now it's all happening on Zoom.
Speaker 3: But even on Zoom, you're watching people clearly writing emails
Speaker 3: while they're in a Zoom meeting, or they're on their
Speaker 3: phone texting, and they're not actually present in anything. We're
Speaker 3: so connected, we're pulled in every different way, and I
Speaker 3: don't think many of us have actually experienced for some
Speaker 3: time the joy that it is to be fully present,
Speaker 3: because it's so hard. Our world is geared for us
Speaker 3: not to be now without our intentional discipline to do
Speaker 3: it another way.
Speaker 1: So true, Gosh, I was on a Zoom call this
Speaker 1: morning with three other people, and it's just so frustrating
Speaker 1: and obvious when people are not focused on the meeting
Speaker 1: and they're doing something else. What do you do in
Speaker 1: those situations? Out of interest? Do you call people on it?
Speaker 1: Or like, what do you do?
Speaker 3: It's interesting, Like one of the things I had not
Speaker 3: paid all that much attention to until I went back
Speaker 3: to school to do my masters two years ago, where
Speaker 3: there was a really big culture around setting group norms,
Speaker 3: was I hadn't actually thought about how important it is
Speaker 3: to set the norms.
Speaker 2: So I guess the rules of the group.
Speaker 3: Up front, because just because you know, when you start
Speaker 3: seeing that behavior, people aren't really sure necessarily where the
Speaker 3: line of acceptability is. And if you haven't actually clarified
Speaker 3: that it's not okay for people to sit on email
Speaker 3: or to be inattentive, or to turn the camera off
Speaker 3: when they want to go eat lunch or something like that,
Speaker 3: you know, it becomes really hard to create a sense
Speaker 3: of group culture. And you'd be so much better place
Speaker 3: with your work to talk about this than me. But
Speaker 3: I think one of the really powerful things I've come
Speaker 3: to realize is certainly, you know, every time you shift context,
Speaker 3: and you know, in the instance of all of us
Speaker 3: being thrust online and being stuck in this virtual space,
Speaker 3: it's so important to create rules and also to explore
Speaker 3: what that looks like for people because if we're going
Speaker 3: to say okay, you can't be turning your camera off
Speaker 3: to go and you know, get yourself lunch. It's so
Speaker 3: important that we understand that not everyone can sit through
Speaker 3: five hours on Zoom NonStop. So we've got to have
Speaker 3: rules about how long different bits of content go, or
Speaker 3: how regular we take little breaks so people can reenergize
Speaker 3: and go have a comfort break or whatever they need.
Speaker 1: Now, speaking of settings, something that has always impressed me
Speaker 1: about you, Holly is just how kind of like effortless
Speaker 1: you are. It seems effortless when I see you at
Speaker 1: events talking to people having meaningful conversations, Like it just
Speaker 1: seems so confident and you know what to say, and
Speaker 1: I want to know, like what's going through your head?
Speaker 1: Like what do you feel you do differently from other
Speaker 1: people in those kind of event and conference sort of situations.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you.
Speaker 3: Firstly, that's very generous.
Speaker 2: I don't know that I.
Speaker 3: Do anything all that differently. I think I'm always interested
Speaker 3: when people come together and we get the good fortune
Speaker 3: to be at some really interesting events with different confidences
Speaker 3: and things that we speak at. It's such an incredible
Speaker 3: learning opportunity. You know, you're so often I feel this
Speaker 3: all the time, like so lucky to be in the room,
Speaker 3: be it virtual or in person, with people that just
Speaker 3: have these really interesting areas of study and application. And
Speaker 3: I always, I think, just come from this disposition of curiosity,
Speaker 3: Like I'm always eager to understand what people are working on,
Speaker 3: why they pick the work that they do, And so
Speaker 3: I think I always just see it as like what
Speaker 3: a smaller is board, you know, I get this opportunity
Speaker 3: to go and connect and ask questions. So I think
Speaker 3: it comes from that framing. I think so much of
Speaker 3: life is about how we frame things to ourselves and
Speaker 3: the story that we tell ourselves. And I always tell
Speaker 3: myself the story of what incredible opportunity to be curious
Speaker 3: and to learn, and that's the way that I try.
Speaker 2: And approach those events.
Speaker 3: And I think when you come from that disposition, I
Speaker 3: guess you know, your question was sort of talking about confidence,
Speaker 3: and I guess the only connection I can draw to
Speaker 3: that idea of confidence is because you're coming from a
Speaker 3: place of curiosity, You're not coming from a place of comparison.
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting because I feel like so many
Speaker 1: people are inwardly focused in terms of their self talk
Speaker 1: at events and conferences and things like that, and worried
Speaker 1: about what people think. But I like what you've described
Speaker 1: in terms of it's very external or other focus, which
Speaker 1: I feel is a great way just to remove the nerves.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And I remember once when I did an improv class,
Speaker 3: the instructor said, nerves are selfish and I was like, Ooh,
Speaker 3: that's like a really hard to wrap your head around
Speaker 3: idea when you know, certainly at that point of my life,
Speaker 3: you know, got nervous quite a bit, or there are
Speaker 3: certainly a lot of environments I get nervous in. And
Speaker 3: his point was that when we are nervous, we're focused
Speaker 3: on ourselves, when we're actually focused on who we're delivering
Speaker 3: for or who we're showing up for. And having tried
Speaker 3: and applied this thought quite actively for many years now,
Speaker 3: I can see what he means. When we're focused on
Speaker 3: who we're serving and who we're trying to show up for.
Speaker 3: Be therefore, it really does change the nervous piece. Like
Speaker 3: I've found that it is far less a part of
Speaker 3: my day, and when I do see myself getting nervous,
Speaker 3: I've in some way started to think about myself again.
Speaker 1: I have a couple of other questions for you, Holly.
Speaker 1: Now I know that you are a voracious reader. I'd
Speaker 1: love to know, like, what have been in two or
Speaker 1: three books that have had the biggest influence on how
Speaker 1: you think about work and career working career?
Speaker 3: Okay, I think definitely one I already mentioned Stephen Covey.
Speaker 2: It's a classic, But Seven.
Speaker 3: Habits is just a foundational book that I think everyone
Speaker 3: should read. I really have enjoyed from a leadership standpoint,
Speaker 3: there's an amazing she does the US presidents, but the
Speaker 3: way that she writes about them, I think she's the
Speaker 3: best sort of leadership biographer out there. Actually, there's maybe
Speaker 3: two of them. Walt Isaacson, who wrote a brilliant one
Speaker 3: on da Vinci that's worth reading, and then Doris Kerns Goodwin.
Speaker 3: Her book on leadership where she chronicles the lives of
Speaker 3: four different presidents through four different periods, is brilliant and
Speaker 3: as a number of her individual ones.
Speaker 2: So I think for those who want.
Speaker 3: To kind of historical read on leadership and to think
Speaker 3: deeply about people like Lincoln and like, that's a really
Speaker 3: good one. The other one that I've really enjoyed and
Speaker 3: it's top of mind, probably because it's the one I
Speaker 3: read most recently. Is Untamed by Glennon Doyle. Really different
Speaker 3: to those books I've just described previously, but very interesting
Speaker 3: in its vulnerability, and she has such a powerful way
Speaker 3: with language. She is a kind of delicious turn of
Speaker 3: phrase with the way she writes. It's such an easy read,
Speaker 3: but it's also just so about that idea of letting
Speaker 3: go of the shackles of what other people might tell
Speaker 3: you to be, want you to be, and that notion
Speaker 3: of really stepping out after yourself. And I think for
Speaker 3: anyone in particular who's listening that might be at a
Speaker 3: decision point or an inflection point in their life and
Speaker 3: think about what's next.
Speaker 2: It's a really powerful book through her own personal.
Speaker 3: Journey that provides some really interesting flodder for kind of
Speaker 3: personal reflection.
Speaker 2: So that's probably a third.
Speaker 1: Now my final question for you, Holly, for people that
Speaker 1: want to consume more of what you're doing and get
Speaker 1: their hands on a copy of The Leading Age, your
Speaker 1: new book, what is the best way for people to
Speaker 1: do that?
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3: I mean you can get a copy of Leading Edge
Speaker 3: of probably booked Topi is your best bet. Or Amazon,
Speaker 3: or you can check out bookstores too, but certainly I
Speaker 3: imagine people listening this through a device, so that might
Speaker 3: be easiest. And then if you want to connect, I'd
Speaker 3: love to reach out on any social media platform. I'm
Speaker 3: on all of them, and also you can subscribe on
Speaker 3: my website Hollyransom dot com. We've got two newsletters we
Speaker 3: send out twice a week. One Love Mondays, which is
Speaker 3: like a positive way of punctuating your Monday mornings, just
Speaker 3: a three minute shortshot read to help you energize for
Speaker 3: the week, and then Easy Tiger on a Friday to
Speaker 3: kind of change up the way that we use our
Speaker 3: weekends and think about what productive downtime can mean. So
Speaker 3: we'd love for you to sign up to those as
Speaker 3: well and be a part of the and ongoing conversation.
Speaker 1: Amazing, Holly, I'm so glad we finally got to have
Speaker 1: this chat. You have not disappointed. You're just like so
Speaker 1: full of interesting ideas and energy. I personally got so
Speaker 1: much out of it, So thank you so much for
Speaker 1: your time.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3: I really appreciate everything that you're doing with this podcast
Speaker 3: and in your world to work too, and it was
Speaker 3: awesome to finally get to have this chat, and I
Speaker 3: look forward to connecting in person sometime soon.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening. I hope you got
Speaker 1: some useful stuff out of my chat with Holly. I
Speaker 1: know I definitely did. She's just such a powerhouse. Now,
Speaker 1: if you are not currently a subscriber to How I Work,
Speaker 1: you might want to hit subscribe or follow wherever you're
Speaker 1: listening to this from, because next week I have Jamila
Speaker 1: Risby on the show, whose work I've been found of
Speaker 1: for a long time, and we're going to be talking
Speaker 1: about how you can become more resilient when times are tough.
Speaker 1: How I Work is produced by Inventing with production support
Speaker 1: from Dead Set Studios. The producer for this episode was
Speaker 1: Jenna Coder, and thank you to Martin Nimba, who does
Speaker 1: the audio mix for everything to do with How I
Speaker 1: Work and makes everything sound awesome. See you next time.