WEBVTT - Conversations 4: The Good Cop 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:06.480 This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:12.000 urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline I'm 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:19.079 thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:22.320 lifeline dot org dot au. 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:32.159 Hello, welcome to Conversations four and we have a very 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:37.360 special guest today. Ron Idle's the good Cop Victoria Police 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:41.120 forty two years thirty six as a detective twenty five 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:44.239 at the Homicide Squad, famous for the quote, well at 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:47.200 least I've quoted him a number of times. The answer 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:48.600 is always in the file. 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:51.400 Welcome Ron, thank you, thank you for having me. 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:54.280 And we have Liam Bartlett here of course, and Tim 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:55.440 is away this week. 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:58.720 Yeah, good Ael and Ron. Just to reiterate what Ellison 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:01.320 says there, Thanks very much for coming on board. Your 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:04.840 experience is absolutely second to none, mate, so we're very 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:08.520 pleased to have you here. And also obviously we're reminder 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:13.120 our listeners ol that Ron has been very much a 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:16.160 part of this case. His report was included in the 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:17.120 coronial inquest. 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:19.680 That is correct, so you would have heard about We 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:24.640 heard a lot about Ron, particularly in episode ten. So 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:27.720 if you need to have a listen before you listen 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:31.200 to this conversations, check it out because it's a very 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:37.080 important aspect of this case. File Ron first question, how 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:38.080 did you get involved? 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:41.840 I think it's as a result of the show that 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:46.360 I did with Good Cop. Amy's family contacted me asked 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:50.920 would I look at the inquest brief. They felt that 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:56.560 the investigation was poor, and eventually I agreed to do it, 0:01:56.840 --> 0:01:59.480 and then their legal team had to get permission for 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:03.560 me to access some material from the current of course. 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:07.480 What were your thoughts ro when you looked at the file? 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:10.920 And I guess caught up with everything that had happened. 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:16.079 So I was sent the part of the Inquestbury and 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:19.480 some of the reviews that had taken place. So I 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:22.000 read all the file and then I could see that 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:25.040 there was a massive mistake made right from the start. 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:28.560 When you go to an incident where there's a shotgun involved, 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:32.280 you should treat it as a homicide in other words, 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:35.600 a murder or a manslaughter, and work back from that 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:39.120 premise to prove anything else. You don't deem it a 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:40.799 suicide from day one. 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:45.400 Yes, so the default position on the bottom line, that 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:49.680 default position should have been something sinister, not something that 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:50.280 was innocent. 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:53.320 That's correct, and then it might prove to be wrong. 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:56.359 But what you should do is you should call all 0:02:56.360 --> 0:03:00.480 the services out, which would include your crime scene. You 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:05.280 call the pathologist out, you call a blood splatter expert out, 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:09.480 you call a ballistics person out, and you do all 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:13.560 the necessary measurement and that to determine whether the person 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:18.760 could have shot themselves or whether it's actually a homicide. 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:23.040 This case was determined in forty two minutes by the 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.800 detectives just saying, well, she's taken her own life. 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:29.200 Yes, when you put it like that forty two minutes, 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:32.160 that really brings it home, doesn't it. Ron. I've got 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:34.440 to say, you know, one of the things I think 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:37.080 you're and I'm not blowing smoke here, but the Good 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:41.680 Cop show that you've been involved with and hosted one 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:44.360 of the best true crime shows on TV because you 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:47.440 make it simple, even for mugs like me. You know, 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:49.880 you break it down, break it down, break it down 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:53.280 all the way through an investigation. And I guess that's 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:56.440 what good detectives do, right. You know, it's not a 0:03:56.520 --> 0:03:58.320 question of being the smartest person in the room. It's 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:03.320 a question of being thorough and absolutely looking at stuff. 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:10.760 Where the common sense alternative doesn't stack up. You know, 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:15.520 and when I look at this case and I read 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:21.640 your report to the coroner again, by breaking it down 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:24.719 like that, none of this makes sense. Would you agree 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:25.039 with that? 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:27.960 None of it made sense? And it's a bit like 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:34.520 ABC Assume nothing, believe nothing, and check everything. Now, before 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:37.799 the two people that were at the house at the time, 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:42.920 that's David and Gareth, they had statements, taken him down 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:45.000 at the front gate, sitting in the back of a 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:50.599 police car. Now, before those statements were finished, the detective 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:53.680 that had already said it was a suicide. Now that's 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:57.760 impossible because you haven't even got a full detailed statement 0:04:57.800 --> 0:04:59.200 from the two people who are present. 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:03.520 It's disgraceful, really, I mean when you look at it, 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.760 I think though, when they obviously had the major crime 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:12.360 investigation and then the cold case review, what were your 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:16.479 thoughts as that transpired? Do you think that that was 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:20.960 enough or you know, where were you thinking the investigation 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:21.960 was going from there? 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:26.640 I think the Major Crime did a half reasonable job, 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:30.160 But the problem was you're already three or four days 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:35.120 behind because at that stage David and Gareth have been out. Joshua, 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:38.560 who was there earlier on it has been about you 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.520 don't know what they're doing in those three days leading 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:45.239 up to it. And the sad part is the crime 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:49.040 says planed up and no matter what you do, you 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:51.760 can never recreate that exactly. 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:56.120 That's true, but that seems to be something that that 0:05:56.279 --> 0:05:59.400 resolved themselves too. Sorry it was watched at the beginning. 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:01.680 There's nothing we can do. We just have to leave 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:05.400 it as an open finding. Is that good enough or 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:08.320 is there still a way to redeem the situation? Do 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:08.720 you think? 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:13.359 I think with further investigation, further publicity, it can still 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:18.640 be redeemed. There are people out there who know exactly 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:22.080 what happened, and it's a matter of locating those people. 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:26.200 I don't think I've ever been involved in a homicide 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:33.000 investigation where the person responsible has not told someone, So 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:36.720 it's about finding that person. Carl Williams, who was an 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:40.440 underworld figure in Melbourne who elderly died and was involved 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:43.080 in four or five murders, had this thing and he 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:48.160 said those who know don't talk, and those who talk 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:52.080 don't know. But in the end that was all proved wrong. 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:55.000 Those who knew always told someone. 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:57.080 Yeah, human nature isn't it. 0:06:57.320 --> 0:06:59.680 Yeah, it's a rufic thing to cover up, and they 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:02.920 all always go ahead and tell someone. 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:08.920 But Ron, let's put aside people's sense of loyalty, misguided loyalty. 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:12.080 Let's put that aside for a second. Just coming back 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:15.920 to that point about what evidence is available now, and 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:18.400 we know we've been through a whole stake of episodes 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:21.680 in this podcast trying to find the truth about Amy. 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:25.000 There is a lot of and not just circumstantial evidence. 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:28.040 To me as a layperson, there is a lot of 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:32.960 evidence in that room and around that room at the time, 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:38.160 regardless of the fact that it wasn't forensically protected, that 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:42.440 could still make a strong brief. Do you agree with 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:46.320 that point? Because I'm asking you because because you must 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:49.400 have had cases over the years where you've assembled what 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:53.240 you thought was a very strong brief and yet still 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:55.840 the DPP or the equivalent has knocked it back. 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:02.920 I've only lost three murder trials out of three hundred. 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:05.720 I've had a couple of briefs that have gone to 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:09.880 the Director of probably Prosecutions and it's come back in 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:17.840 sufficient evidence. In this case, I think the bio mechanic engineer, 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:21.360 and more so the reconstruction that you have done with 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:26.920 the expert from America is pretty telling stuff. I'm a 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:31.360 detective and I looked at the photos, and the right 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:35.040 hand is under the right leg, So the only way 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:37.440 that she could have pulled the trigger was with her 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:41.320 left hand. And if you try to hold a fourteen 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:44.800 shotgun in the position that she was and get a 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:49.319 ninety degree horizontal entry and exit, it's impossible. 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:54.199 Yes, exactly, Well, that's the thing, right. They decided she'd 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:58.280 used that to shield the barrel, so then they pretty 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:01.440 much dispensed with that theory and then went to the 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:04.000 right hand being used, and then they were trying to 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:05.960 find a way that the gun could have fallen in 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:09.720 that position and her hand could have gone under a buttock, 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:13.040 But of course in the end they couldn't prove that either. 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:16.439 So then it was the whole idea of the body 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:20.839 being moved. But there's still that attachment to the suicide 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:24.120 theory as opposed to just looking forward and saying, look, 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:27.400 what are the balance of probabilities. This is the brief. 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:30.000 Let's just put it to the DPP and let them decide. 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:32.720 Look, I think that I don't know what they've done 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:37.920 since the inquest. But what I'd be doing is who 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:41.760 is David's assay siate who are his friends who he's 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:44.319 been in contact with over the last three or four years. 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:47.319 You would go and speak to all Gareth's friends again, 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:52.600 because sometimes with the passage of time, people's relationship change, 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:55.199 and I think if you did that, you might actually 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:58.280 find someone who says, this is what he told me, 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:01.800 which is incant distant to what the account that he 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:06.079 gave back in June two thousand and fourteen. And then 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:09.240 you couple that with all your evidence that you've found 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:14.280 and you put it to the Officer Public Prosecutions. 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:17.400 Ron here is there anything from a police level that 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:23.520 allows or doesn't allow the police to go to back 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:27.320 to David Simmons, back to the Gareth Price Joshua Brydon 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:31.079 and pull them in again for a formal interview separately. 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:35.559 At this stage you would have to have new evidence. 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:38.000 You can't just go and arrest a person that you've 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:42.120 already interviewed for the sake of another interview unless you've 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:43.800 got new material to put to them. 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:46.880 Can you ask them to do that voluntarily? 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:50.280 Yes, you could go to any one of those three 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:53.680 who were there on the day with David especially, you 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:57.559 could go back and put the matters that you're uncovered 0:10:57.600 --> 0:10:59.560 as a result of your expert from America. 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:03.360 Listen, this is where I still go back again and again, 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:07.440 you know, to that terrible evening. I still can't get 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:10.160 my head around there. I mean, two detectives turn up 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:14.839 with three uniforms already there, and between the two experienced 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:19.960 detectives senior police, they create notes between the two of 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:23.640 them that don't even fill a page, a single page 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:28.440 of a four paper. I'm just I just it does 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:31.960 my head in that statistic ron. How do you feel 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:34.040 about that as a senior police officer. 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:37.040 Well, I've got to sadly agree with you. If I 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:40.120 was at that scene, I think you would find that 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:43.440 I would probably have twenty a four pages of notes. 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:46.720 I'm going to talk to the first uniform police there. 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:49.080 I'm going to take notes to that, You're going to 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:52.040 do a diagram of the scene. Then I'm going to 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:55.080 make phone calls because I know I want other services there. 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:59.120 I just think those two detectives just didn't want to 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:01.560 be there that night. They might add something else to 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:04.800 go to. It's as if well, let's just tick this 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:09.480 box and walk away and sadly, I think they got 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:10.080 it wrong. 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:20.840 The Brotherhood of the Police. And you were in the 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:25.880 police force for half a century, so you know about this. 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:30.680 And when mistakes are made, when people do muck up, 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:37.240 is there an issue sometimes with having them taken into account? 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:40.880 And I mean there was an internal investigation and you 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:45.040 saw that. Was it enough? And do you think that 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:46.760 there should have been a bit more of an open 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:49.920 mind at the inquest as to what happened to Amy? 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:53.960 I think there was definitely should have been an open mind. 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:57.640 After I made my statement for the currents court, they 0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:01.920 then got a superintendent to read report and to produce 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:05.920 a report. Now I listened to his evidence at the 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:10.040 Currenter's court and he said everything was done. It was 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:13.000 all done properly, although he can see the mistakes at 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:17.560 the crime scene, but he said, I can tell you 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:20.640 now she took her own life. Well, that is just 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:25.200 a closed mind. And I've got to tell you, in 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:28.400 forty two years I've had to go up against the 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:33.240 Brotherhood and not once has anyone ever apologized to me 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:36.480 order families that we got it wrong. 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.440 That's interesting. You would have seen with Larry Blandford, right, 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:42.600 he's created like a bit of a leper now because 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.840 he actually stood up and he's no longer an officer. 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:51.120 How often does it happen that uniform cops might do 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:53.240 that and is it seen as a bit of an 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:57.080 army mentality you don't question your superior when it comes 0:13:57.120 --> 0:13:59.040 to the police force as well. 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.560 Look, I think it was difficult for those junior officers 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:06.480 on the night. They were quite to the point that 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:09.079 it wasn't a suicide, or she hadn't taken her own life, 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:12.200 or they wanted a lot of other things done and tested, 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:16.200 and I think they spoke your mind. But it's like 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:19.920 a hierarchy. So, Okay, you've got these detectives who are 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:23.240 they're far more experienced than we are. They're saying she 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:26.560 took her own life, so they have to accept that, 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:30.560 even though deep down they don't yes. 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:34.000 On that level, Ron, If we just get your comments 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:35.600 on a couple of these things that relate to the 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:39.840 police directly from your experience from some of our listeners 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:44.120 that have made queries put comments on the Facebook page 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:47.640 for the Truth About Amy podcast. If you don't mind out, 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:49.240 I'll just go through a couple of these for Ron 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:53.440 on that exact subject. Debra is asking why the uniform 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.720 police who turned up couldn't go over the heads of 0:14:56.840 --> 0:14:59.960 the detectives at the time. Can you explain that, ron. 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:05.520 If they did, then there'd be consequences down the track. 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:09.080 They would be seen as not being loyal to a 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:10.000 senior officer. 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:12.520 Yeah, it would. It'd be very difficult, woudn't it. I mean, 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:15.480 you know, it's just like trying to go up against 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:18.560 your manager if you're in a big organization. It's a 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:20.080 difficult thing at that level, isn't it. 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:23.680 It is? And I was asked in twenty twelve to 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:27.960 review the murder of two policemen Silken Miller in Melbourne, 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:31.040 and I came to the conclusion that one of the 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:33.200 persons responsible wasn't there. 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:34.120 Now. 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:37.080 When I finished my report, I took it directly to 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:42.000 the Director of Public Prosecutions. Now that's caused me no 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:47.160 end of grief. I've been ostracized. I'm now the evil one, 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:51.760 even though later on it was proved I was right, 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:55.840 and the young person charged, Jason Roberts, did twenty one 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:58.920 years and has been exonerated. You don't buck the system. 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:03.640 If you buck the system, you'll be offstra basically left 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:04.960 to your stone devices. 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:07.280 Yeah, even though, as you say, you've been proved to 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:09.560 be one hundred percent right in fact, to the point 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:13.240 where that particular person has now launched a multimillion dollar 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:16.240 lawsuit against the government. So yeah, maybe more people should 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:17.280 have listened to you earlier. 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:21.160 Well, it's just one of those things that if you 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:26.120 go against the hierarchy, you're considered basically as a black shirt. 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:29.120 Yeah, that's sad, right for doing the right thing. Shouldn't 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:29.960 that be respected? 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:33.080 Or it should be it should be respected, But I 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:36.520 haven't seen it change much over the last twenty twenty 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:37.360 five years. 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:40.600 Agreed. Well, here's another one on that level. This is 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:44.000 from Judy on the Facebook page. Judy wants to know 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:47.960 how the Premier in Wa, Roger Cook, and the state's 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:52.160 Attorney General John Quigley sleep at night and how they 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:54.120 would feel if it happened to one of their children, 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:58.160 And she goes on to say the Police Commissioner Cole 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:03.080 Blanche needs to step up. That's a fairly straightforward and 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:05.080 fair comment, don't you think, Ron It is? 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:08.159 But I think the Premier wouldn't know the exact details. 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:11.760 The police minister would have an overall briefing. But I 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:15.639 think it's time the Chief Commissioner stood up and said, well, look, 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:18.800 let's put this to bed once and for all, let's 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:21.800 get all the available evidence, put it back before the 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:25.120 Director of Public Prosecutions, and let's get a decision made. 0:17:25.359 --> 0:17:27.280 Yeah, yeah, very good point. I mean, I'd love to 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:29.359 see some of this stuff, things that we've been shaking 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:31.879 our head over, ol, I'd love to see. I'd love 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:35.560 to see a jury hear the same stuff in the 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:39.480 same order. But here's another one from Facebook. Ron Trisha 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:43.280 wants to know more about the missing door handle. Now 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:45.640 I'm intrigued by that as well. What did you think 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:46.160 of that? Ron? 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.520 I can't explain that, Like, the door handle's missing, was 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:52.520 it missing prior to that day? And then I've got 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:55.560 a vague recollection that could have been on the dressing table. 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:59.200 Yes, well it was replaced. That's the funny thing, right, 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:02.040 the door handled turned back up afterwards, but at the 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:04.800 time it was missing on the inside. And that's just 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:07.440 so strange. I've always thought that was strange because if 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:10.000 Amy had taken it, she would have taken it from 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:13.040 the outside, because she wouldn't have wanted her daughters to 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:15.520 walk in on her if she had killed herself. 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:20.120 Oh, that's right. But where she's located behind the door, 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:23.200 to me, it's like she's gone down there and she's 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:28.359 cowering like gotta rum up, as if something's going to 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:28.960 take place. 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:33.960 Yeah, I agree, there was another guy. Actually, I don't know. 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:36.679 And Liam's going through this too, and it's great. I 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:38.919 love that we've had so many people get back to 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:42.360 us on this. This is Paul. We kind of addressed 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:43.719 this a little bit, but it'd be good to get 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:45.879 a little bit more detail. And he's basically said he's 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:48.680 enjoying the listening to the podcast since the terrible injustice 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:51.040 has occurred, but he can't help but wonder about one 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:53.280 piece of evidence that doesn't make sense to him. If 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:56.159 Amy was right handed and someone was holding a shotgun 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:58.840 on or near her right temple, why was she not 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:01.840 trying to push the hourl away with her dominant hand. 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:06.320 Surely she uses her strongest arm in trying to save herself. Now, 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:08.879 my understanding, as I remember seeing in the room, and 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:12.800 you saw the pictures right that the door is on 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:18.160 her left, so it's coming in from there and her 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:22.560 left hand is closest. But yeah, it's just another thing 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:23.400 that doesn't make sense. 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:26.040 No, I don't think any of that stuff makes sense. 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:28.680 It doesn't make sense after the fact either, with the 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.800 way the gun was handled by at least three people, 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:34.800 the way the ammunition was handled in it, taken out 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:37.919 of it all before police arrived. I mean, it just 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:40.159 all that stuff just doesn't make sense at all to me. 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:42.560 No, and then when they were told to clean up, 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:45.760 I think I think there's been shells were thrown out. 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:48.399 Yeah, well they weren't found again. 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:55.359 No, that's yeah. Look, here's another one on that subject. Guys. 0:19:55.119 --> 0:20:01.600 There's an email here from Mirian. Mirian says this probably 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:04.719 has been covered. But if Amy was going to use 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:06.919 a gun to kill herself, as she would use the 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:09.840 pink one she bought, as it was hers and she 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:12.200 knew how to use it. But apparently it was over 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:15.440 in the wardrobe or against another wall. That's correct, that's right, 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:17.919 she said. Marian said, I heard on the podcast she 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:19.960 was slumped against the wall by the door with another 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:23.680 gun with her right hand underneath her bum, which absolutely 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:26.560 doesn't add up, correct, Marion, Yep, we just discussed that. 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:30.040 Being a woman myself and a mum, i'd never leave 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:32.200 my children in a running car and go inside to 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:35.720 kill myself. Great point. You would hate to think your 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:37.440 child may find you if they got out of the 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:39.520 still running car and she had presents in the car 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:43.200 ready to leave, So it does not stack up seeing 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:47.159 how slight she was. Marian also suggests she wouldn't smash 0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:48.920 the tank in the shed. She may have run past 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:51.640 angry and brushed against it, which made it tip and smash, 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:54.840 depending on what kind of stand it was. Look another 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:58.199 good set of comments from some of our listeners, and 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:00.560 they do pick up for obvious reusons. They pick up 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:04.600 on the important points. And again, surely a jury of 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:06.880 peers would also have many many questions wrong. 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:11.440 Oh absolutely, But I think the thing that the DPP 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:14.000 if they get, if they get the brief, is that 0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:21.040 the new reconstruction and even the previous biomechanic, it's impossible 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:25.080 to shot herself. And to a lay person in the 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:29.199 jury twelve good people drawn from the community, trying to 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:35.000 picture themselves holding a four ten shotgun with one hand 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:38.880 and pulling the trigger doesn't make sense. Well, there's three 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:43.560 three classic things that you always look for, motive, opportunity, 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:44.879 and capability. 0:21:45.440 --> 0:21:50.160 Well, Here's an email from Mandy. She says, I can't 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:53.320 stop thinking about the motive I heard in a few 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:56.720 episodes ago, the comment that the coroner said there was 0:21:56.760 --> 0:22:00.760 a lack of motive for murder. Unfortunately, he says, Mandy, 0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:03.439 this was glossed over. I feel you could have focused 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:07.520 on this statement more. Amy had applied for compensation for 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:11.000 her neck injury following the accident, when Simmons was driving 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:15.680 the vehicle. How was that going to directly impact Simmons? Then, 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:18.240 Mandy points to the clear evidence Amy was clearly in 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:21.280 the process of leaving with the car engine running. Or 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:24.480 domestic abuse victims, This is the most dangerous time to leave. 0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:27.560 Mandy goes on, but she makes some great points there. 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:30.960 I mean, again, Ron, you know, if you want to 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:34.560 find the evidence disregarding the fact that, as we've been 0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:37.800 saying time and time again, the detectives made a terrible, 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:40.480 terrible mistake and the place was cleaned up, but there 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:46.880 is all this suggestion of associated evidence around the actual 0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:49.680 scene that could be well and truly explored. 0:22:49.800 --> 0:22:51.280 Absolutely, is there. 0:22:51.760 --> 0:22:54.520 Many homicides that you've had to deal with, Ron that 0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:57.960 involved or had a background of domestic violence? 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:00.440 Oh? Absolutely, I think if you went back to the 0:23:00.520 --> 0:23:04.960 nineteen eighties, the homicide squad was called the heavy Domestics. 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:07.400 In other words, the majority of murders that we went 0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:12.199 to were domestic related. The truth is always in an 0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:16.320 an investigation, you've actually got to go out and find it. 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:19.480 And at the moment, I don't think that's being done. 0:23:19.800 --> 0:23:22.959