Speaker 1: Black Cast, Unite our voices.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Black Magic Woman Podcast with Mandanara Bailey.
Speaker 2: Hey you Mob, Welcome back to this special episode at
Speaker 2: the First Nation's Clean Energy Network Summit here on the
Speaker 2: Sunshine Coast, which brings this guest here to the table,
Speaker 2: brings me to a conversation that I had at a summit,
Speaker 2: the Indigenous Leadership Summit in nam and Michael Frangos jumped
Speaker 2: on and had a yarn as a non Indigenous brother.
Speaker 2: But this is a yarn that kind of connects from
Speaker 2: that one and brings you to this conversation with this
Speaker 2: brother here. So too, the listeners and the viewers on YouTube,
Speaker 2: do you want to share a little bit about yourself,
Speaker 2: so your name, your mob, and a little bit about
Speaker 2: where you grew up?
Speaker 3: Yeah, awesome.
Speaker 4: Tommy Hicks, Head of Cultural and Community and Indigenous Entergy Australia.
Speaker 4: But on my mother's side, so kind of that place
Speaker 4: northeast of Perth, and people always ask me what's out there,
Speaker 4: and there's not a whole heap to describe, so it's
Speaker 4: near and then I'm Norunger on my father's side, so
Speaker 4: butterfish people from the Openinsula in South Australia.
Speaker 3: Living in Perth.
Speaker 4: Allegedly, Yeah, I spent a lot of time in the
Speaker 4: Virgin Lounge. In the Virgin Lounge, yeah yeah, clocking up
Speaker 4: the km so yeah, yeah, the team shipsing around the
Speaker 4: country to do a few bits and pieces.
Speaker 3: So privileged privilege was how much of the country I
Speaker 3: get to see?
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, in terms about talking about country,
Speaker 2: that's what we're doing here at this summit.
Speaker 1: What's been some of the highlights for you so far?
Speaker 2: Uh?
Speaker 4: Just the people Always I think, like, like you know,
Speaker 4: I just did a chart and in my acknowledgment and
Speaker 4: country always talking about country for me being being about
Speaker 4: stories and stories of place, but also stories of people
Speaker 4: and getting to getting to kind of like bump into
Speaker 4: each other and let stories bounce off. I want another
Speaker 4: that's people you've seen and new people you've met, and
Speaker 4: just getting to learn different things from different people and
Speaker 4: also have the things, you know, kind of reinforced or
Speaker 4: seeds that have been planned with you watered a little bit.
Speaker 3: That's always a highlight for me.
Speaker 2: I love that seeds that have been planned and need
Speaker 2: watering a little bit. I always think about these opportunities,
Speaker 2: as you know, we get together. We have all these yarns,
Speaker 2: non abitional people coming here, and then there's nothing. It's
Speaker 2: like radio silence. How have you been able to kind
Speaker 2: of stay engaged with these conversations or make sure that
Speaker 2: some of these seeds that have been planted actually you know,
Speaker 2: start growing and you know there's conversations keep happening.
Speaker 4: Look, I'm privileged enough to work directly in this industry,
Speaker 4: Like I'm in the thick of a lot of weather
Speaker 4: work happens, and I think what makes it feel like
Speaker 4: nothing is that it's the space, you know, so we
Speaker 4: don't always get to see each other. And it's really
Speaker 4: fast paced industry in general. So like you blink sometimes
Speaker 4: and you haven't seen Fallows for six months and you're like, oh,
Speaker 4: what's going on again?
Speaker 3: So how do I stay engaged?
Speaker 4: Look privileged enough to be a shareholder in our company
Speaker 4: as well, and the decision making out that director level
Speaker 4: is very aligned, and we make sure we put our
Speaker 4: gennas on the ground everywhere we go and soak those
Speaker 4: things up. So taking the time to talk to people
Speaker 4: or take a phone call or have a chat on
Speaker 4: a Sunday with fellows, I just have a question, is
Speaker 4: how I really stay connected to this space, but I
Speaker 4: guess hear the themes of the conversations when you're back
Speaker 4: in a place like this some good where we've had breakthroughs,
Speaker 4: but definitely not at the scale.
Speaker 1: Tell me about the work that you do.
Speaker 4: What we call ourselves an advert consultant, So we're kind
Speaker 4: of coining that term at the moment, so advocate consultant.
Speaker 4: It's a really nice way to say, we'll argue with
Speaker 4: you about the job first and then make sure the
Speaker 4: job gets done right.
Speaker 3: So now we consult in infrastructure.
Speaker 4: So it's a lot of kind of like the main
Speaker 4: two things are engagement and then infrastructure advisory, but the
Speaker 4: high level thing and you know, Michael probably unpack this
Speaker 4: quite a bit in his episode, but it's just about
Speaker 4: again now it comes from a mob out of infrastructure,
Speaker 4: infrastructure being those kind of physical foundations of life. So
Speaker 4: we'll get involved with anything, you know. Two weeks ago
Speaker 4: I was in Parliament having a chat with the Federal Minister.
Speaker 4: And last week I was in four regional towns of
Speaker 4: New South when I was talking about water and rits
Speaker 4: and listening to people's stories about living themissions by the
Speaker 4: Creek and how that water body has changed and those
Speaker 4: types of things. So it takes me all the way
Speaker 4: across the spectrum in different spaces.
Speaker 2: And what have you seen in terms of progress in
Speaker 2: the work that you do, the space that you're in
Speaker 2: in the sector in general?
Speaker 4: I think people's capability, Like it is a new space.
Speaker 4: This industry is quite quite young, and my background has
Speaker 4: been in like education, social work, systems, design that type
Speaker 4: of stuff. So for me, I'm eighteen months in full
Speaker 4: time and it's like there's been people kind of like
Speaker 4: growing on that journey with me as well and being
Speaker 4: able to kind of transfer a lot of that.
Speaker 3: But I think, yeah, people's really.
Speaker 4: Starting to kind of understand the space, and particularly you know,
Speaker 4: I think in NATOK and that next generation comes through
Speaker 4: just just bumping into some pretty pretty smooth young operators
Speaker 4: around there doing really good things. Yeah, I think that
Speaker 4: that's something that can continues to change and grow.
Speaker 2: And in terms of within the business, have you got
Speaker 2: staff that you're employing now, what does it look like?
Speaker 4: Yeah, Look, any professional services firm grows and shrinks, so
Speaker 4: so you know, we've had a bit of a growing
Speaker 4: a shrink lately, which is which is really good.
Speaker 3: One some new projects.
Speaker 4: But there's about probably roughly twenty of us at the moment,
Speaker 4: and we've got plans to grow. And the growth for
Speaker 4: us has really been about scaling impact rather than you know,
Speaker 4: scaling scaling the bank balance.
Speaker 3: So yeah, to bring people on.
Speaker 2: I had eighteen staff two years ago, down to like seven.
Speaker 2: But the impact in other works that I do as
Speaker 2: a consultant, delivery, training and supporting, just uplifting the cultural
Speaker 2: capability and confidence for my clients to then engage with
Speaker 2: people like you, but more particular, like just any black
Speaker 2: follower in general, how do people operate on Aboriginal terms
Speaker 2: as a non avitual person.
Speaker 1: How can they you know? Well, more importantly, they.
Speaker 2: Need to see themselves as visitors on other people's countries,
Speaker 2: not experts, and they need to realize that when they're
Speaker 2: on our turf or in our communities, that they should
Speaker 2: be students and they're there to learn from us, and
Speaker 2: we will teach them much more than you know they're
Speaker 2: going to teach us. So trying to get them to
Speaker 2: understand these two very different worlds and how they can
Speaker 2: navigate these two worlds. So it's kind of like we're
Speaker 2: trying to assimilate them into being black fellows and we'll
Speaker 2: get better outcomes, right if they understood there's really deep
Speaker 2: it's kind of this like relationality, like this ethos of
Speaker 2: how Aboriginal people are connected to land and that deep
Speaker 2: sense of obligation to look after land and if we
Speaker 2: can get that right, then the.
Speaker 1: Land will look after us.
Speaker 2: So how do we get non Aboriginal people to really
Speaker 2: see this as an area of interest, Like it's kind
Speaker 2: of urgent when you think about climate change.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's a great question. And what I'm going
Speaker 4: to say is fundamentally at odds with speed.
Speaker 3: But it's it's it's mostly.
Speaker 4: About why, you know, Like it's I was just on
Speaker 4: stage and I said, you know, we really should be
Speaker 4: growing things out of why. And to bring non Aboriginal
Speaker 4: people into that space and help them understand our why
Speaker 4: starts to really paint a picture of how we operate
Speaker 4: and how we prioritize and how we make decisions. And
Speaker 4: to me and and you mentioned traveling from people's countries
Speaker 4: and other people's countries being really good at having cultural capability,
Speaker 4: it's less about knowing and it's more about knowing what
Speaker 4: to ask. You know, you move through that process always
Speaker 4: put that relationship first and business grows from that. And
Speaker 4: we take the same approach with our company and saying,
Speaker 4: let's establish a relationship that a project fits into. Let's
Speaker 4: not try and cram a relationship into a project. So yeah,
Speaker 4: really really helping them understand that way.
Speaker 2: I think, what's some of the lessons that you've learned
Speaker 2: being in business that you could share with some of
Speaker 2: our listeners, especially young mob It might be in their startup,
Speaker 2: they might be a little bit more mature, it might
Speaker 2: be struggling.
Speaker 4: I think, Look, my sense of identity helps me step
Speaker 4: into a lot of these spaces and it really helps me.
Speaker 4: I always say I'm pretty good, I kind of popping
Speaker 4: my head above the tall grass and saying, you know,
Speaker 4: are we going in the right direction here, and actively
Speaker 4: play that role for the company. But if I to
Speaker 4: give any advice, it's really get comfortable speaking from your perspective.
Speaker 4: And it's funny that a lot of the things that
Speaker 4: make my methodology all the things we do as a
Speaker 4: company really work.
Speaker 3: It's things I was taught as a.
Speaker 4: Young person, like really young before I even started my career,
Speaker 4: So just how to move and how to speak and
Speaker 4: connect with people, and showface and those different types of things.
Speaker 3: You start working that into how you do your work.
Speaker 3: So I think really, if.
Speaker 4: You, especially if you work with black flos, really really
Speaker 4: trusting that and then a bit more from the scary
Speaker 4: perspective as to see of agendas out there and really
Speaker 4: taking the time to kind of hear what other people's
Speaker 4: wives are will really really help you navigate some of
Speaker 4: those spaces really well. So listening and responding accordingly, what
Speaker 4: are you.
Speaker 2: Most proud of in terms of some of your business achievements?
Speaker 4: To be honest, I pinched myself sometimes just to think, like,
Speaker 4: I work for a house that I've played a huge
Speaker 4: role in building, you know, and I take massive pride
Speaker 4: in knowing there's about, you know, fifteen kids of our company,
Speaker 4: and I play a big role in putting food on
Speaker 4: the table, center to school, or getting them a body
Speaker 4: electric secuter and those types of things. That's a huge thing.
Speaker 4: I think business will always be business and we'll grow
Speaker 4: and adjust. But again, the people that I work with
Speaker 4: and for, we always describe us we're more of a
Speaker 4: community than a company, and we are community that can
Speaker 4: operate in the corporate space.
Speaker 3: We're not corporates that can reach back into our community.
Speaker 4: So just that ethos in our company culture is something
Speaker 4: I'm incredibly proud of.
Speaker 1: Too deadly.
Speaker 2: I just want to yel with you, but I know
Speaker 2: you've got to get on a plane and jet back
Speaker 2: over to Wadjack Nongam learning my words it. I was
Speaker 2: schooled by Uncle Laura Maguire teaching me when I was
Speaker 2: over there some of the language that I needed to use,
Speaker 2: not needed to should use, and just being respectful. And
Speaker 2: that's as a black woman going to another country, making
Speaker 2: sure that I've got the right people guiding me. And
Speaker 2: sometimes that's the problem. You've got people operating in these
Speaker 2: spaces and going to the communities with the wrong people
Speaker 2: guiding them.
Speaker 1: Have you seen that a lot?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I definitely have. And it's a challenge.
Speaker 4: We've got this prerogative to really kind of unite with opportunity,
Speaker 4: so we try and use that character get people to
Speaker 4: come together and sitting in sitting in those kind of
Speaker 4: generational riffs often caused by things like coal mining or
Speaker 4: mining and irresponsible business creating has and have not. It's
Speaker 4: like we all as black files, we will understand what
Speaker 4: those things feel like. And families that haven't spoken for
Speaker 4: so long, and those types of things and check native
Speaker 4: title into it. Yeah, yeah, all these layers of governance
Speaker 4: and rights and you are and you are, and the
Speaker 4: complexities about verifying even who you are. Like, you're right,
Speaker 4: that guidance is so important and we really I don't
Speaker 4: fly in and fly out of communities too much.
Speaker 3: Like everything I.
Speaker 4: Do, I'd love to employ local people to give me
Speaker 4: that context and that type of thing. So the value
Speaker 4: put on place based understanding are just boots on the ground, Like,
Speaker 4: we value that massively highly. Yeah, and it's and it's yeah,
Speaker 4: led to some unbelievable opportunities and wins to deadline.
Speaker 2: So what's on the horizon for you and your company
Speaker 2: the work that you're doing, and I think you.
Speaker 1: Can share with this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, look, we're pretty transparent about what we do as well,
Speaker 4: and what's on the horizon more growth, I think like
Speaker 4: we really we really have taken the time to figure
Speaker 4: out if what we do works and now we're confident
Speaker 4: in that and we've we've kind of pushed the accelerator
Speaker 4: on growing, which comes with a number of challenges, especially
Speaker 4: being a young leader like I turned twenty nine on Tuesday,
Speaker 4: So still still pretty young for a person working at
Speaker 4: this level.
Speaker 3: But happy birthday, Thank you. No, I appreciate it.
Speaker 4: I think, yeah, there's there's it's just this methodology that works,
Speaker 4: I think. And it's just all about understanding what followers
Speaker 4: want and understanding how our project or something happening makes
Speaker 4: that happen, you know, in a way that's defined by them.
Speaker 3: That's the most important part.
Speaker 4: So really trying to develop our footprint now and get
Speaker 4: around the place and pick up some of the circumstances,
Speaker 4: you know, And that's the main thing. And we're talking
Speaker 4: here about economic development, but coming from that social kind
Speaker 4: of background, adopting that first things first stuff.
Speaker 3: You know, if the water don't work, don't worry about
Speaker 3: a job, you know, like.
Speaker 4: People are dying twenty years earlier, fifteen years early in
Speaker 4: remote places. You get talking about job skills and money
Speaker 4: just doesn't cut it at the minute.
Speaker 2: So yeah, and here I am like fe feeling really
Speaker 2: proud to seeing other black fellows thriving and just reminding
Speaker 2: myself of how deadly it is to be a black
Speaker 2: feller and just to see other deadly black fellows and
Speaker 2: there's not enough of us out there promoting the things
Speaker 2: that we're doing. So it's good for podcasts like this
Speaker 2: where we can share these stories without big noting, but
Speaker 2: just share and you know the work that we do
Speaker 2: and what drives us.
Speaker 1: I was going to say one last thing before we
Speaker 1: wrap up.
Speaker 2: You know you're flying around, You're all over the country,
Speaker 2: You're hardly ever home. What do you do in terms
Speaker 2: of just kind of I don't know whether it's to
Speaker 2: feel your carple to look after your mental health? How
Speaker 2: do you how do you look after you?
Speaker 4: It's a great question, to be honest, It's still something
Speaker 4: I'm figuring out. Like I kind of grew up as
Speaker 4: a young person really have routine, so developing that now
Speaker 4: is a challenge, especially with the travel and those types
Speaker 4: of things. But the other side of that is I've
Speaker 4: always operated in a bit of chaos.
Speaker 3: So still figuring it out. What I do like to
Speaker 3: do is connect with people and connect with place. I
Speaker 3: love food too, Like I love getting around and be like,
Speaker 3: oh yeah, I got to eat at this place.
Speaker 4: With that I have it, Yeah, quite a simple, simple
Speaker 4: thing and just but always look forward to geting home
Speaker 4: and some serial and PlayStation that type of thing.
Speaker 2: So let's how you switch off because being a business
Speaker 2: owner myself, I can't switch off.
Speaker 1: There's just always something to do.
Speaker 2: There's something I forgot, there's another project, another client, another email,
Speaker 2: another staff member, another.
Speaker 1: Idea, another business.
Speaker 2: I'm constantly, you know, on, switched on, and i sometimes
Speaker 2: find it hard to switch off. And I've got kids
Speaker 2: that kind of want me to be present and to
Speaker 2: be their mum and not just you know, take calls
Speaker 2: at all hours of the night.
Speaker 1: So I've learned now twelve.
Speaker 2: Years in to put boundaries around my time and my energy.
Speaker 1: But very inspiring.
Speaker 2: I know a lot of the people that I work
Speaker 2: with that are probably some of the people you work with.
Speaker 2: We should do another yard where we're not on camera
Speaker 2: but talking about business and how we can even refer
Speaker 2: work and clients to each other, because there's a lot
Speaker 2: of people that probably need the advice that you followers
Speaker 2: could give them because it's not the sector that I
Speaker 2: play in, but as a black woman that is very
Speaker 2: much committed to creating a much more it's not a
Speaker 2: better country.
Speaker 1: I just want a healthy planet. I want my.
Speaker 2: Children and my grandchildren to have access to clean air
Speaker 2: and clean water. And that's at the moment, it seems
Speaker 2: like a big ask, So thank you for the work
Speaker 2: that you're doing and continue to do when you're only
Speaker 2: twenty nine far out.
Speaker 1: I'm fair really old at the moment.
Speaker 2: For all of you younger mob, it's you know, the
Speaker 2: world's your oyster. Take those opportunities with two hands and
Speaker 2: run with it. There's nothing stopping us, and there's more
Speaker 2: black businesses popping up left, right and center. So I
Speaker 2: can't wait to hear more and to follow your journey.
Speaker 2: Thank you for stopping in last minute and jumping on
Speaker 2: the Black Magic on podcast.
Speaker 3: I really appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I a bit of a quiet fan and follower
Speaker 4: of yours too, so oh stop.
Speaker 3: Nice to see all.
Speaker 4: The things you do and give the follows the platform
Speaker 4: to kind of say these things. I'm definitely a victim
Speaker 4: of not saying enough, like not not really social media operator,
Speaker 4: but thank you for the opportunity.
Speaker 2: Here we all have a social media now my brother
Speaker 2: for all our listeners. If you want to know more,
Speaker 2: especially around the clean energy, this space Renewable Energy, the
Speaker 2: First Nations Clean Energy Network. There's a lot of resources
Speaker 2: on their website, but will also connect you to this
Speaker 2: brother's business. So look, Thank you again, safe travels back
Speaker 2: to your country, and for our listeners, I hope you've
Speaker 2: enjoyed this Deadly yarn. Until next time, bye for now.
Speaker 2: If you'd like any more on today's guest, please visit
Speaker 2: our show notes in the episode description.
Speaker 1: A big shout out to all you.
Speaker 2: Deadly Mob and allies who continue to listen, watch, and
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Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you.
Speaker 2: The Black Magic Woman podcast is produced by Clint Curtis