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Speaker 1: Black Cast, Unite our voices.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Black Magic Woman Podcast with Mandanara Bailey.

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Speaker 2: Hey you Mob, Welcome back to this special episode at

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Speaker 2: the First Nation's Clean Energy Network Summit here on the

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Speaker 2: Sunshine Coast, which brings this guest here to the table,

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Speaker 2: brings me to a conversation that I had at a summit,

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Speaker 2: the Indigenous Leadership Summit in nam and Michael Frangos jumped

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Speaker 2: on and had a yarn as a non Indigenous brother.

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Speaker 2: But this is a yarn that kind of connects from

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Speaker 2: that one and brings you to this conversation with this

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Speaker 2: brother here. So too, the listeners and the viewers on YouTube,

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Speaker 2: do you want to share a little bit about yourself,

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Speaker 2: so your name, your mob, and a little bit about

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Speaker 2: where you grew up?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, awesome.

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Speaker 4: Tommy Hicks, Head of Cultural and Community and Indigenous Entergy Australia.

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Speaker 4: But on my mother's side, so kind of that place

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Speaker 4: northeast of Perth, and people always ask me what's out there,

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Speaker 4: and there's not a whole heap to describe, so it's

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Speaker 4: near and then I'm Norunger on my father's side, so

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Speaker 4: butterfish people from the Openinsula in South Australia.

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Speaker 3: Living in Perth.

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Speaker 4: Allegedly, Yeah, I spent a lot of time in the

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Speaker 4: Virgin Lounge. In the Virgin Lounge, yeah yeah, clocking up

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Speaker 4: the km so yeah, yeah, the team shipsing around the

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Speaker 4: country to do a few bits and pieces.

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Speaker 3: So privileged privilege was how much of the country I

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Speaker 3: get to see?

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Speaker 2: I was gonna say, in terms about talking about country,

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Speaker 2: that's what we're doing here at this summit.

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Speaker 1: What's been some of the highlights for you so far?

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Speaker 2: Uh?

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Speaker 4: Just the people Always I think, like, like you know,

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Speaker 4: I just did a chart and in my acknowledgment and

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Speaker 4: country always talking about country for me being being about

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Speaker 4: stories and stories of place, but also stories of people

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Speaker 4: and getting to getting to kind of like bump into

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Speaker 4: each other and let stories bounce off. I want another

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Speaker 4: that's people you've seen and new people you've met, and

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Speaker 4: just getting to learn different things from different people and

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Speaker 4: also have the things, you know, kind of reinforced or

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Speaker 4: seeds that have been planned with you watered a little bit.

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Speaker 3: That's always a highlight for me.

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Speaker 2: I love that seeds that have been planned and need

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Speaker 2: watering a little bit. I always think about these opportunities,

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Speaker 2: as you know, we get together. We have all these yarns,

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Speaker 2: non abitional people coming here, and then there's nothing. It's

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Speaker 2: like radio silence. How have you been able to kind

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Speaker 2: of stay engaged with these conversations or make sure that

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Speaker 2: some of these seeds that have been planted actually you know,

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Speaker 2: start growing and you know there's conversations keep happening.

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Speaker 4: Look, I'm privileged enough to work directly in this industry,

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Speaker 4: Like I'm in the thick of a lot of weather

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Speaker 4: work happens, and I think what makes it feel like

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Speaker 4: nothing is that it's the space, you know, so we

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Speaker 4: don't always get to see each other. And it's really

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Speaker 4: fast paced industry in general. So like you blink sometimes

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Speaker 4: and you haven't seen Fallows for six months and you're like, oh,

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Speaker 4: what's going on again?

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Speaker 3: So how do I stay engaged?

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Speaker 4: Look privileged enough to be a shareholder in our company

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Speaker 4: as well, and the decision making out that director level

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Speaker 4: is very aligned, and we make sure we put our

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Speaker 4: gennas on the ground everywhere we go and soak those

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Speaker 4: things up. So taking the time to talk to people

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Speaker 4: or take a phone call or have a chat on

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Speaker 4: a Sunday with fellows, I just have a question, is

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Speaker 4: how I really stay connected to this space, but I

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Speaker 4: guess hear the themes of the conversations when you're back

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Speaker 4: in a place like this some good where we've had breakthroughs,

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Speaker 4: but definitely not at the scale.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the work that you do.

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Speaker 4: What we call ourselves an advert consultant, So we're kind

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Speaker 4: of coining that term at the moment, so advocate consultant.

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Speaker 4: It's a really nice way to say, we'll argue with

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Speaker 4: you about the job first and then make sure the

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Speaker 4: job gets done right.

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Speaker 3: So now we consult in infrastructure.

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Speaker 4: So it's a lot of kind of like the main

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Speaker 4: two things are engagement and then infrastructure advisory, but the

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Speaker 4: high level thing and you know, Michael probably unpack this

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Speaker 4: quite a bit in his episode, but it's just about

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Speaker 4: again now it comes from a mob out of infrastructure,

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Speaker 4: infrastructure being those kind of physical foundations of life. So

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Speaker 4: we'll get involved with anything, you know. Two weeks ago

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Speaker 4: I was in Parliament having a chat with the Federal Minister.

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Speaker 4: And last week I was in four regional towns of

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Speaker 4: New South when I was talking about water and rits

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Speaker 4: and listening to people's stories about living themissions by the

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Speaker 4: Creek and how that water body has changed and those

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Speaker 4: types of things. So it takes me all the way

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Speaker 4: across the spectrum in different spaces.

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Speaker 2: And what have you seen in terms of progress in

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Speaker 2: the work that you do, the space that you're in

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Speaker 2: in the sector in general?

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Speaker 4: I think people's capability, Like it is a new space.

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Speaker 4: This industry is quite quite young, and my background has

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Speaker 4: been in like education, social work, systems, design that type

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Speaker 4: of stuff. So for me, I'm eighteen months in full

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Speaker 4: time and it's like there's been people kind of like

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Speaker 4: growing on that journey with me as well and being

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Speaker 4: able to kind of transfer a lot of that.

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Speaker 3: But I think, yeah, people's really.

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Speaker 4: Starting to kind of understand the space, and particularly you know,

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Speaker 4: I think in NATOK and that next generation comes through

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Speaker 4: just just bumping into some pretty pretty smooth young operators

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Speaker 4: around there doing really good things. Yeah, I think that

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Speaker 4: that's something that can continues to change and grow.

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Speaker 2: And in terms of within the business, have you got

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Speaker 2: staff that you're employing now, what does it look like?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Look, any professional services firm grows and shrinks, so

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Speaker 4: so you know, we've had a bit of a growing

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Speaker 4: a shrink lately, which is which is really good.

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Speaker 3: One some new projects.

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Speaker 4: But there's about probably roughly twenty of us at the moment,

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Speaker 4: and we've got plans to grow. And the growth for

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Speaker 4: us has really been about scaling impact rather than you know,

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Speaker 4: scaling scaling the bank balance.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, to bring people on.

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Speaker 2: I had eighteen staff two years ago, down to like seven.

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Speaker 2: But the impact in other works that I do as

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Speaker 2: a consultant, delivery, training and supporting, just uplifting the cultural

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Speaker 2: capability and confidence for my clients to then engage with

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Speaker 2: people like you, but more particular, like just any black

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Speaker 2: follower in general, how do people operate on Aboriginal terms

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Speaker 2: as a non avitual person.

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Speaker 1: How can they you know? Well, more importantly, they.

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Speaker 2: Need to see themselves as visitors on other people's countries,

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Speaker 2: not experts, and they need to realize that when they're

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Speaker 2: on our turf or in our communities, that they should

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Speaker 2: be students and they're there to learn from us, and

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Speaker 2: we will teach them much more than you know they're

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Speaker 2: going to teach us. So trying to get them to

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Speaker 2: understand these two very different worlds and how they can

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Speaker 2: navigate these two worlds. So it's kind of like we're

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Speaker 2: trying to assimilate them into being black fellows and we'll

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Speaker 2: get better outcomes, right if they understood there's really deep

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Speaker 2: it's kind of this like relationality, like this ethos of

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Speaker 2: how Aboriginal people are connected to land and that deep

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Speaker 2: sense of obligation to look after land and if we

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Speaker 2: can get that right, then the.

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Speaker 1: Land will look after us.

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Speaker 2: So how do we get non Aboriginal people to really

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Speaker 2: see this as an area of interest, Like it's kind

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Speaker 2: of urgent when you think about climate change.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's a great question. And what I'm going

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Speaker 4: to say is fundamentally at odds with speed.

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Speaker 3: But it's it's it's mostly.

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Speaker 4: About why, you know, Like it's I was just on

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Speaker 4: stage and I said, you know, we really should be

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Speaker 4: growing things out of why. And to bring non Aboriginal

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Speaker 4: people into that space and help them understand our why

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Speaker 4: starts to really paint a picture of how we operate

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Speaker 4: and how we prioritize and how we make decisions. And

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Speaker 4: to me and and you mentioned traveling from people's countries

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Speaker 4: and other people's countries being really good at having cultural capability,

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Speaker 4: it's less about knowing and it's more about knowing what

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Speaker 4: to ask. You know, you move through that process always

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Speaker 4: put that relationship first and business grows from that. And

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Speaker 4: we take the same approach with our company and saying,

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Speaker 4: let's establish a relationship that a project fits into. Let's

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Speaker 4: not try and cram a relationship into a project. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: really really helping them understand that way.

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Speaker 2: I think, what's some of the lessons that you've learned

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Speaker 2: being in business that you could share with some of

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Speaker 2: our listeners, especially young mob It might be in their startup,

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Speaker 2: they might be a little bit more mature, it might

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Speaker 2: be struggling.

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Speaker 4: I think, Look, my sense of identity helps me step

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Speaker 4: into a lot of these spaces and it really helps me.

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Speaker 4: I always say I'm pretty good, I kind of popping

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Speaker 4: my head above the tall grass and saying, you know,

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Speaker 4: are we going in the right direction here, and actively

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Speaker 4: play that role for the company. But if I to

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Speaker 4: give any advice, it's really get comfortable speaking from your perspective.

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Speaker 4: And it's funny that a lot of the things that

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Speaker 4: make my methodology all the things we do as a

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Speaker 4: company really work.

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Speaker 3: It's things I was taught as a.

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Speaker 4: Young person, like really young before I even started my career,

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Speaker 4: So just how to move and how to speak and

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Speaker 4: connect with people, and showface and those different types of things.

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Speaker 3: You start working that into how you do your work.

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Speaker 3: So I think really, if.

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Speaker 4: You, especially if you work with black flos, really really

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Speaker 4: trusting that and then a bit more from the scary

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Speaker 4: perspective as to see of agendas out there and really

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Speaker 4: taking the time to kind of hear what other people's

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Speaker 4: wives are will really really help you navigate some of

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Speaker 4: those spaces really well. So listening and responding accordingly, what

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Speaker 4: are you.

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Speaker 2: Most proud of in terms of some of your business achievements?

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Speaker 4: To be honest, I pinched myself sometimes just to think, like,

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Speaker 4: I work for a house that I've played a huge

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Speaker 4: role in building, you know, and I take massive pride

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Speaker 4: in knowing there's about, you know, fifteen kids of our company,

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Speaker 4: and I play a big role in putting food on

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Speaker 4: the table, center to school, or getting them a body

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Speaker 4: electric secuter and those types of things. That's a huge thing.

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Speaker 4: I think business will always be business and we'll grow

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Speaker 4: and adjust. But again, the people that I work with

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Speaker 4: and for, we always describe us we're more of a

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Speaker 4: community than a company, and we are community that can

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Speaker 4: operate in the corporate space.

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Speaker 3: We're not corporates that can reach back into our community.

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Speaker 4: So just that ethos in our company culture is something

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Speaker 4: I'm incredibly proud of.

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Speaker 1: Too deadly.

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Speaker 2: I just want to yel with you, but I know

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Speaker 2: you've got to get on a plane and jet back

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Speaker 2: over to Wadjack Nongam learning my words it. I was

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Speaker 2: schooled by Uncle Laura Maguire teaching me when I was

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Speaker 2: over there some of the language that I needed to use,

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Speaker 2: not needed to should use, and just being respectful. And

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Speaker 2: that's as a black woman going to another country, making

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Speaker 2: sure that I've got the right people guiding me. And

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Speaker 2: sometimes that's the problem. You've got people operating in these

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Speaker 2: spaces and going to the communities with the wrong people

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Speaker 2: guiding them.

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Speaker 1: Have you seen that a lot?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I definitely have. And it's a challenge.

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Speaker 4: We've got this prerogative to really kind of unite with opportunity,

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Speaker 4: so we try and use that character get people to

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Speaker 4: come together and sitting in sitting in those kind of

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Speaker 4: generational riffs often caused by things like coal mining or

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Speaker 4: mining and irresponsible business creating has and have not. It's

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Speaker 4: like we all as black files, we will understand what

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Speaker 4: those things feel like. And families that haven't spoken for

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Speaker 4: so long, and those types of things and check native

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Speaker 4: title into it. Yeah, yeah, all these layers of governance

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Speaker 4: and rights and you are and you are, and the

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Speaker 4: complexities about verifying even who you are. Like, you're right,

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Speaker 4: that guidance is so important and we really I don't

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Speaker 4: fly in and fly out of communities too much.

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Speaker 3: Like everything I.

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Speaker 4: Do, I'd love to employ local people to give me

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Speaker 4: that context and that type of thing. So the value

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Speaker 4: put on place based understanding are just boots on the ground, Like,

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Speaker 4: we value that massively highly. Yeah, and it's and it's yeah,

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Speaker 4: led to some unbelievable opportunities and wins to deadline.

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Speaker 2: So what's on the horizon for you and your company

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Speaker 2: the work that you're doing, and I think you.

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Speaker 1: Can share with this.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, look, we're pretty transparent about what we do as well,

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Speaker 4: and what's on the horizon more growth, I think like

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Speaker 4: we really we really have taken the time to figure

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Speaker 4: out if what we do works and now we're confident

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Speaker 4: in that and we've we've kind of pushed the accelerator

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Speaker 4: on growing, which comes with a number of challenges, especially

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Speaker 4: being a young leader like I turned twenty nine on Tuesday,

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Speaker 4: So still still pretty young for a person working at

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Speaker 4: this level.

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Speaker 3: But happy birthday, Thank you. No, I appreciate it.

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Speaker 4: I think, yeah, there's there's it's just this methodology that works,

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Speaker 4: I think. And it's just all about understanding what followers

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Speaker 4: want and understanding how our project or something happening makes

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Speaker 4: that happen, you know, in a way that's defined by them.

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Speaker 3: That's the most important part.

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Speaker 4: So really trying to develop our footprint now and get

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Speaker 4: around the place and pick up some of the circumstances,

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Speaker 4: you know, And that's the main thing. And we're talking

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Speaker 4: here about economic development, but coming from that social kind

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Speaker 4: of background, adopting that first things first stuff.

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Speaker 3: You know, if the water don't work, don't worry about

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Speaker 3: a job, you know, like.

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Speaker 4: People are dying twenty years earlier, fifteen years early in

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Speaker 4: remote places. You get talking about job skills and money

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Speaker 4: just doesn't cut it at the minute.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, and here I am like fe feeling really

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Speaker 2: proud to seeing other black fellows thriving and just reminding

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Speaker 2: myself of how deadly it is to be a black

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Speaker 2: feller and just to see other deadly black fellows and

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Speaker 2: there's not enough of us out there promoting the things

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Speaker 2: that we're doing. So it's good for podcasts like this

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Speaker 2: where we can share these stories without big noting, but

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Speaker 2: just share and you know the work that we do

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Speaker 2: and what drives us.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say one last thing before we

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Speaker 1: wrap up.

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Speaker 2: You know you're flying around, You're all over the country,

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Speaker 2: You're hardly ever home. What do you do in terms

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Speaker 2: of just kind of I don't know whether it's to

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Speaker 2: feel your carple to look after your mental health? How

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Speaker 2: do you how do you look after you?

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Speaker 4: It's a great question, to be honest, It's still something

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Speaker 4: I'm figuring out. Like I kind of grew up as

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Speaker 4: a young person really have routine, so developing that now

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Speaker 4: is a challenge, especially with the travel and those types

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Speaker 4: of things. But the other side of that is I've

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Speaker 4: always operated in a bit of chaos.

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Speaker 3: So still figuring it out. What I do like to

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Speaker 3: do is connect with people and connect with place. I

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Speaker 3: love food too, Like I love getting around and be like,

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Speaker 3: oh yeah, I got to eat at this place.

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Speaker 4: With that I have it, Yeah, quite a simple, simple

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Speaker 4: thing and just but always look forward to geting home

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Speaker 4: and some serial and PlayStation that type of thing.

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Speaker 2: So let's how you switch off because being a business

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Speaker 2: owner myself, I can't switch off.

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Speaker 1: There's just always something to do.

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Speaker 2: There's something I forgot, there's another project, another client, another email,

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Speaker 2: another staff member, another.

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Speaker 1: Idea, another business.

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Speaker 2: I'm constantly, you know, on, switched on, and i sometimes

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Speaker 2: find it hard to switch off. And I've got kids

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Speaker 2: that kind of want me to be present and to

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Speaker 2: be their mum and not just you know, take calls

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Speaker 2: at all hours of the night.

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Speaker 1: So I've learned now twelve.

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Speaker 2: Years in to put boundaries around my time and my energy.

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Speaker 1: But very inspiring.

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Speaker 2: I know a lot of the people that I work

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Speaker 2: with that are probably some of the people you work with.

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Speaker 2: We should do another yard where we're not on camera

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Speaker 2: but talking about business and how we can even refer

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Speaker 2: work and clients to each other, because there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of people that probably need the advice that you followers

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Speaker 2: could give them because it's not the sector that I

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Speaker 2: play in, but as a black woman that is very

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Speaker 2: much committed to creating a much more it's not a

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Speaker 2: better country.

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Speaker 1: I just want a healthy planet. I want my.

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Speaker 2: Children and my grandchildren to have access to clean air

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Speaker 2: and clean water. And that's at the moment, it seems

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Speaker 2: like a big ask, So thank you for the work

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Speaker 2: that you're doing and continue to do when you're only

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Speaker 2: twenty nine far out.

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Speaker 1: I'm fair really old at the moment.

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Speaker 2: For all of you younger mob, it's you know, the

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Speaker 2: world's your oyster. Take those opportunities with two hands and

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Speaker 2: run with it. There's nothing stopping us, and there's more

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Speaker 2: black businesses popping up left, right and center. So I

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Speaker 2: can't wait to hear more and to follow your journey.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for stopping in last minute and jumping on

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Speaker 2: the Black Magic on podcast.

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Speaker 3: I really appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I a bit of a quiet fan and follower

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Speaker 4: of yours too, so oh stop.

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Speaker 3: Nice to see all.

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Speaker 4: The things you do and give the follows the platform

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Speaker 4: to kind of say these things. I'm definitely a victim

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Speaker 4: of not saying enough, like not not really social media operator,

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Speaker 4: but thank you for the opportunity.

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Speaker 2: Here we all have a social media now my brother

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Speaker 2: for all our listeners. If you want to know more,

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Speaker 2: especially around the clean energy, this space Renewable Energy, the

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Speaker 2: First Nations Clean Energy Network. There's a lot of resources

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Speaker 2: on their website, but will also connect you to this

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Speaker 2: brother's business. So look, Thank you again, safe travels back

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Speaker 2: to your country, and for our listeners, I hope you've

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Speaker 2: enjoyed this Deadly yarn. Until next time, bye for now.

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Speaker 2: If you'd like any more on today's guest, please visit

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Speaker 2: our show notes in the episode description.

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Speaker 1: A big shout out to all you.

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Speaker 2: Deadly Mob and allies who continue to listen, watch, and

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Speaker 2: support our podcast.

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Speaker 1: Your feedback means the world. You can rate and review.

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Speaker 2: The podcast on Apple and Spotify, or even head to

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Speaker 2: our socials and YouTube channel and drop us a line.

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Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you.

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Speaker 2: The Black Magic Woman podcast is produced by Clint Curtis