1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Good morning everybody. And I don't say this lightly, but 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: to all Victorian listeners, congratulations you made it through one 3 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:12,479 Speaker 1: of the most remarkable days of news history I can remember. Sarah, 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: it was phenomenal. We're going to take you through the 5 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: day's news and then have a discussion about whether manitary 6 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: vaccines can be enforced in the workplace. It's an issue 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: that's coming up more and more this week, so we 8 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 1: wanted to have a discussion about it. Around the country. 9 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: Yesterday there were six hundred and twenty eight new cases 10 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: of COVID in Victoria and four earthquakes in New South Wales. 11 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: There were one thousand and thirty five COVID cases and 12 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: no tectonic plate movements, and in the Act seventeen cases 13 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: were recorded and some tremors were felt. Zara, tell me 14 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: what story left you shaking in your boots yesterday. 15 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 2: So yesterday, Victorians would be well aware that a five 16 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 2: point eight magnitude earthquake struck Melbourne in the early hours 17 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 2: of the morning, with tremors lasting for about thirty seconds. 18 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 2: After that, we had a four point zero after shock 19 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 2: that was felt eighteen minutes later. There were also shocks 20 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 2: felt in Sydney, Adelaide and Canberra, but luckily there were 21 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 2: no reports of injury or death. There was just some 22 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 2: damage to buildings. Deputy Victorian Premier James Melino warned the 23 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 2: state to keep on high alert as geoscience has confirmed 24 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 2: there is a possibility we may receive further after shocks 25 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 2: and potential risk of further earthquakes. 26 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: As if that wasn't enough for the city to endure, 27 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: Yesterday saw protesters in Melbourne taking to the streets for 28 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: a third day in a row, with the groups starting 29 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: in the CBD and eventually marching to the Shrine of 30 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: Remembrance just after one pm. Protesters were heard chanting freedom 31 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: and every Day while being met with extremely heavy police presence. 32 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: Here's what the Shrine of Remembrance Chief Executive Dean Lee 33 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: had to say about the venue being used as the 34 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: ending spot of the protest. 35 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 3: Frankly on Scoochless and a port from what we're seeing here, 36 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 3: I cannot comprehend the selfishness of blit who had come 37 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 3: to this sacred place and do this to Victoria's Shrine 38 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 3: of Remembrance. It's outrageous, it's reprehensible, it's the most disgusting 39 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 3: behavior I could ever imagine witnessing here at the Shrine 40 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 3: of Remembrance. 41 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 2: We found out yesterday that China will stop funding coal 42 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 2: projects overseas to accelerate efforts to help battle climate change. 43 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 2: In a UN General Assembly address, President Shijingping said, and 44 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 2: China will step up support for other developing countries in 45 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 2: developing green and low carbon energy, and will not build 46 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 2: new coal fire power projects abroad. She also repeated pledges 47 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 2: made last year, which included that China promised to peak 48 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 2: coal consumption by twenty thirty and to go completely carbon 49 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 2: neutral by twenty sixty. 50 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: And today's good news, Malaysia has joined the eighty percent club, 51 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: with eighty percent of their adult population fully vaxed against 52 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen. The milestone was reached ahead of its initial 53 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: target of October. There's been over forty point six million 54 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: doses of the COVID vaccine administered in the country. 55 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 2: It's pretty amazing to hear those stats after thinking about 56 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 2: what the country went through not so long ago with 57 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 2: a massive surgeon cases. So it really just shows the 58 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 2: effects of a high vaccination rate. So for three consecutive 59 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 2: days we have seen protests across Melbourne that have centered 60 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 2: around the idea of enforcing mandatory vaccines on particular industries. 61 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 2: A portion of these protesters have come from the construction industry, 62 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 2: which the Victorian government had mandated needed to have at 63 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 2: least one dose of the COVID nineteen vaccine before today, 64 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 2: the twenty third of September. 65 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:43,119 Speaker 1: Additionally, we saw an announcement yesterday in Victoria that teachers 66 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: and childcare workers will have to get at least one 67 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: JAB before being allowed to return to work. They'll need 68 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: to have their first dose by the eighteenth of October 69 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: or have a vaccine booking within a week of that date. 70 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 2: Before we jump into this chat, it is important to 71 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: note that while this has certainly been a theme for 72 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 2: some of the protesters, we do understand that these protests 73 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 2: have been infiltrated by people outside of the union movement, 74 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 2: outside of the CFMEU, and those people belong to right 75 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 2: wing groups who have almost co opted this anti vax 76 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 2: sentiment and turned it into significant violence and anger that 77 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 2: we've seen across Melbourne over the past couple of days. 78 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 2: But there is a portion of this group that is 79 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 2: pushing back against the mandatory vaccinations and we wanted to know. 80 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,559 Speaker 2: Can your workplace legally require you to get the COVID 81 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 2: nineteen vaccine. 82 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: The first question to ask is whether vaccine mandates are 83 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: lawful in Australia, whether that be the fluvax, the covid vax, 84 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: or any other mandated vaccine. The answer is really that 85 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: there are two ways within the workplace that it can 86 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: be mandated lawfully, one by a government and the second 87 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: by a company. So we've seen an example of a 88 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: company mandating the vaccine with Quantus. They've said that all 89 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: of their staff must have the vaccine and they're perfectly 90 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: entitled to do so. Legal experts say that in so 91 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: circumstances where the government has passed laws saying you must 92 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: be vaccinated, it's really quite straightforward. You have to get 93 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 1: vaccinated to be an employee of a company. There is 94 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 1: no legal room there. Where it gets a little blurrier 95 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 1: is if the government has left it up to individual 96 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: companies to use their own discretion as to whether a 97 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: vaccine has to be mandated internally or not. You might 98 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 1: see our company release guidelines about it being recommended or 99 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: about it improving the return to work. That's very different 100 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: to them saying you have to have the vaccine in 101 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: order to return to work. Obviously, we're going to see 102 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: a higher rate of vaccine mandates in high risk industries. 103 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: I mean the school one yesterday was a good example. 104 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: There's so many people that teachers are coming in contact 105 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: with that it makes a lot more sense than other 106 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: jobs where you might not have interactions with a heap 107 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: of people. There are of course going to be exemptions, 108 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 1: the main ones being medical exemptions that mean you cannot 109 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: get vaccinated, but it's going to be something that you'll 110 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:01,239 Speaker 1: probably need to show evidence for before your employer accepts 111 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: it as a reason. So before we get started, we 112 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: have to really think about whether the vaccine mandates are 113 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: lawful in Australia. And the short answer there is yes 114 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 1: they are. They are lawful in Australia. But if we 115 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: go a little bit deeper, there's kind of two different 116 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: ways a vaccine can be mandated, either by a government 117 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 1: or by a company. According to legal experts, in circumstances 118 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: where the government has passed laws saying that you must 119 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: be vaccinated if you want to work in that particular area, 120 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: it's really quite simple. The employees will have to get vaccinated, 121 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: and there's not much wiggle room there. In the cases 122 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: where government has not delivered such a strong directive, it 123 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: really becomes a question then over the discretion of the company, 124 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: and the law will look at whether the employee's direction 125 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: is lawful and reasonable. Whether a direction is lawful and 126 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: reasonable will impact on what industry is being talked about. 127 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: So for teachers who are mandated to get the vaccine 128 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,799 Speaker 1: by the Victorian government yesterday, it's quite a high risk setting. 129 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: There is lots of interactions with different people and it 130 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: would easily be seen to be a lawful and reasonable 131 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: request that teachers be vaccinated. Now, of course, with all 132 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: of this, there are inevitably going to be exemptions medical 133 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: exemptions to be exact that means you cannot get vaccinated. 134 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: The key here is always going to be that you're 135 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: going to need to show advice from your GP if 136 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: you're willing to pursue this to your employer. 137 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 2: So the next question then is that if there is 138 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 2: a vaccine mandate in place, as we've seen across multiple industries, 139 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,559 Speaker 2: can employers sack you if you don't comply. The short 140 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 2: and the long answer is yes, and an employment law 141 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 2: principle at Maurice Blackburn, who TDA spoke to a couple 142 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 2: of days ago, actually said that if you fail to 143 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 2: comply with a lawful and reasonable direction, then that's usually 144 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 2: valid grounds to dismiss you. But it can't just lead 145 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 2: straight to the dismissal. There should be consultation and procedural 146 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 2: fairness first. We know that there have been some legal 147 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 2: cases taken to the Fair Work Commission, who is the 148 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: body that presides over these sorts of issues, and where 149 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 2: workers in childcare and aged care have claimed that they've 150 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 2: been unfairly dismissed for things like refusing mandatory flu vaccinations. 151 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 2: Gary Savahreman, the employment law expert that we spoke to, 152 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 2: said very bluntly, in those cases, no employee has won yet. 153 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: That doesn't necessarily mean, though, that it can't happen in 154 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 2: the future, right Sam. 155 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: I guess there's always room for courts to hear an 156 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: individual case and change their minds and establish a new 157 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: precedent or a new way of doing things. But Man 158 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: Tree vaccines have been around for a long time. This 159 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,559 Speaker 1: is not a new idea that fair work on Birdsman's 160 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 1: and employment agencies and advisors have to deal with. It's 161 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: relatively commonplace, especially in high risk settings. So it doesn't 162 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: seem likely to me that we're going to see a 163 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: major change just because there's now a mandated COVID vaccine 164 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: in some settings. Zara. I guess the other question here 165 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: is whether we're actually going to see a government mandated 166 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen vaccine, whether we're going to see a federal 167 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: law that says you have to be vaccinated at work. 168 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: And what we know about what mister Morrison has said 169 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: publicly is that it's unlikely. He said last week that 170 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,839 Speaker 1: employers must make their own decisions when it comes to 171 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: enforcing vaccinations for high risk workers. What the Prime Minister 172 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,319 Speaker 1: did say is that he particularly listed airline workers, age 173 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: care workers and retail staff as examples of those for 174 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: whom it might be appropriate to mandate vaccines based on 175 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: their proximity to people who might be carrying the virus. 176 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: A final point to think about if you're an employer 177 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: who's thinking about mandating vaccines for staff members, the general 178 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: guidance around is that the first thing you should do, 179 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: it's consult with your employees and consider their views. This 180 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: helps to set a really positive tone for the mandate 181 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: and ultimately we'll get people vaccinated as quick as possible. 182 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 2: Let's hope that we don't see another day of protests 183 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,079 Speaker 2: because I know that Melbournians are feeling a bit fragile 184 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 2: today and it is understandable given the week that they 185 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 2: have had so far. If you want to follow what 186 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 2: is happening across the country, follow us on Instagram at 187 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 2: the Daily Oz. You'll be joining a community of over 188 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 2: two hundred and thirty thousand ossies who are also trying 189 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 2: to navigate this very, very confusing news cycle. We'll see 190 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 2: you there.