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Speaker 1: Today's episode is another my Favorite Tip episode, where I

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Speaker 1: go back to interviews from the past and I dig

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Speaker 1: out the thing that was my favorite tip, like the

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Speaker 1: thing that I got out of the interview that really

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Speaker 1: impacted or resonated with me. The extract that I have

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Speaker 1: for you on today's show is from my chat with

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Speaker 1: Jake Nap. This is the second time I've had Jake

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Speaker 1: on the show. I loved our first interview so much

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Speaker 1: that I was keen to check back in with him

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Speaker 1: during COVID to see how he was going and how

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Speaker 1: the way he approacious work had changed. So if you

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Speaker 1: haven't come across Jake before, Jake spent the last ten

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Speaker 1: years at Google and Google Ventures, where he created the

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Speaker 1: design sprint, which is a method for building and testing

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Speaker 1: a prototype in five days. He then went on and

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Speaker 1: wrote a book about the process called Sprint, which was

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Speaker 1: a New York Times bestseller, and he also wrote another

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Speaker 1: book called Make Time, which I have referred to on

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Speaker 1: a few episodes previously. I personally loved Make Time, which

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Speaker 1: is all about strategies to help make time for doing

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Speaker 1: your most important work and really getting the most out

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Speaker 1: of each day. So in this extract from my second

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Speaker 1: chat with Jake, we talk about email and why email

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Speaker 1: is so addictive and what Jake is doing to help

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Speaker 1: win the battle against email. So on that note, let's

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Speaker 1: head to Jake.

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Speaker 2: One of the one of the biggest struggles is email

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Speaker 2: for sure. And you know they're if I, you know,

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Speaker 2: if I try to like come up with the biggest

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Speaker 2: struggles of the moment for me, in this moment of

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Speaker 2: pandemic time, there they're like exaggerated versions of the struggles

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Speaker 2: that I have all times. There are the struggles of

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Speaker 2: like focus. I am not a naturally like focused person,

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Speaker 2: and I have to I have to I have to

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Speaker 2: have tools and methods and barriers to help me create

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Speaker 2: that that focus. That's been even more true. I've been

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Speaker 2: even more distracted and and you know, emotionally bouncing around

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Speaker 2: during this time. That challenge is is exaggerated. The challenges

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Speaker 2: of you know, kind of like like like we talked

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Speaker 2: about earlier, just having the sort of confidence or that

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Speaker 2: sort of sense of like self worth or like this

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Speaker 2: is the right thing to do. They can really put

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Speaker 2: the wind in your sales when you have it. That's

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Speaker 2: that's always a challenge in it more so now. But

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Speaker 2: email it's a funny one, right, Like it's very you know,

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Speaker 2: tactical and like simple. Those other ones are like almost philosophical,

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Speaker 2: and email just feels like awesome. But email is the

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Speaker 2: for for many of us, certainly for me, it's like

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Speaker 2: it is the place where a lot of like distraction

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Speaker 2: and nebulousness lives, and like it's the heart of this

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Speaker 2: this problem where I you know, if if you don't

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Speaker 2: have clarity about what you what's most important to you.

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Speaker 2: If I don't have clarity about what's most important to me,

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Speaker 2: and I don't have clarity of purpose about like what

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Speaker 2: the thing is I should do and I'm certain I

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Speaker 2: should do it, and I'm going to do it. Like

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Speaker 2: if I don't have just blistering clarity about what that

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Speaker 2: thing is, then I go into my email inbox and

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Speaker 2: like there's a million things in there for me to do.

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Speaker 2: They all come with like a little like micro version

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Speaker 2: of what you describe when somebody says like thank you

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Speaker 2: for the you know, the talk or whatever, and that

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Speaker 2: like is so rewarding. Like every email has like a

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Speaker 2: little piece of that, Like somebody asked me something and

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Speaker 2: I can like do something for them in return, and

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Speaker 2: like email, just it creates this like really these really

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Speaker 2: like small rewards and these really small feelings of productivity

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Speaker 2: that in the big picture, they come at this cost

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Speaker 2: of like the big clarity about the bigger thing that

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Speaker 2: I might be trying to do. Like it's it's very

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Speaker 2: rare that the most important work I do happens in email.

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Speaker 2: Yet every day email is the easiest on ramp to

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Speaker 2: a feeling of productivity, and yet it's like it's fool's gold,

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Speaker 2: Like I get in there and if I can spend

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Speaker 2: all day every day in email, and the weird thing

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Speaker 2: about the pandemic is I'm getting way fewer emails than

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Speaker 2: usual because, like I said, my work is really like

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Speaker 2: totally you know, turned upside down because of events and

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Speaker 2: in person stuff is canceled or postponed, so my email

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Speaker 2: volume is way way lower. And yet even still I

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Speaker 2: could spend I could spend a full day every day

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Speaker 2: in email, and I could, you know. It's it's actually

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Speaker 2: like when I have less clarity about is this the

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Speaker 2: right thing to do, or less confidence that I'm going

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Speaker 2: to have thirty or sixty or one hundred and twenty

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Speaker 2: minutes of uninterrupted time because like my son can't get

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Speaker 2: on Zoom or like whatever, you know, first class like

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Speaker 2: with with that, like that feeling of instability that comes

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Speaker 2: with the present moment. Even though there's less email, it's

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Speaker 2: like more of a challenge to not succumb to it

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Speaker 2: and just to be totally like you know, honest, even

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Speaker 2: though it doesn't it doesn't make me look good as

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Speaker 2: like this sort of you know, a marketer of a

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Speaker 2: of a great time management tool. I've had to hire

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Speaker 2: someone to help me with with the email stuff and

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Speaker 2: to and to really kind of force me to stay

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Speaker 2: out of it and stay out of my email and

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Speaker 2: focus on the other projects that I want to do.

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Speaker 1: So how do you use that person then? Like what's

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Speaker 1: their job? So to speak?

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Speaker 2: So I thought about this for a long time because

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Speaker 2: you know, I do have a weird situation with email.

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Speaker 2: John Saratski, my co author, has a good way of

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Speaker 2: putting this because we both you know, we both worked

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Speaker 2: in companies for a long time and then we both

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Speaker 2: kind of quit our jobs sort of around the same

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Speaker 2: time and went into this thing where where each of

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Speaker 2: us is like working on our own. So, as John

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Speaker 2: puts it, like if you if you work in a

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Speaker 2: company like some number of the emails in your inbox

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Speaker 2: you don't really have to do anything about them because

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Speaker 2: they're not to you, Like they're too a group of people,

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Speaker 2: and if you don't comment on them, somebody else will

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Speaker 2: will deal with it, or somebody you know, or it's

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Speaker 2: just kind of an fyi. But when you are self employed,

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Speaker 2: like a lot of the emails, a much higher percentage

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Speaker 2: of the emails in your inbox are like they're meant

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Speaker 2: for you, and you're sort of supposed to do something

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Speaker 2: with them. And and being in this situation like the

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Speaker 2: with these these books, like it's great to be an author,

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Speaker 2: and if people read your books, it's like it's so cool,

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Speaker 2: it's what you want and stuff. But I also really

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Speaker 2: want if anybody emails me it has questions or comments

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Speaker 2: about things, I really want to talk to them about it,

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Speaker 2: you know, like that's so cool. And yet if I

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Speaker 2: talk to them all the time, I won't do anything else,

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Speaker 2: and there won't be any more books, you know, and

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Speaker 2: there won't be any more there won't be any remote

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Speaker 2: sprint guide, there won't be that other stuff won't happen.

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Speaker 2: And so to that required us like like like make time,

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Speaker 2: we sort of wrote with it was we started writing

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Speaker 2: while we were still working at Google Ventures. It's it's

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Speaker 2: written with this context of like here's how you how

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Speaker 2: we did this, like in our jobs at Google or

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Speaker 2: in our you know, our jobs and these big companies,

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Speaker 2: and we kind of have to like refigure out how

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Speaker 2: it works when you're a one person business. And so

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Speaker 2: I thought about for a long as as I started

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Speaker 2: to realize that the business side of you know, Jake Napp, Inc.

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Speaker 2: Basically was was going to overwhelm my ability to do

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Speaker 2: these sort of focused more maybe creative projects or just

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Speaker 2: any kind of focused work because of the volume of

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Speaker 2: things that needed to happen, I thought, well, I need

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Speaker 2: to hire like a you know, an assistant of some kind.

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Speaker 2: And I started to talk to people who had crossed

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Speaker 2: that threshold of when they decided I need to hire

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Speaker 2: an assistant and how they decided to do that, And

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Speaker 2: it took me a long time to figure out that

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Speaker 2: what worked for them probably wouldn't work for me because

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Speaker 2: for people who cross that threshold running a business with

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Speaker 2: other people, the needs that they have are different from

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Speaker 2: my needs. So it's the main thing I need help

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Speaker 2: with is I need help with kind of a system

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Speaker 2: for dealing with a community of people who who I

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Speaker 2: want to interact with and I want to you know,

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Speaker 2: talk to and stuff. But I can't let it become

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Speaker 2: everything I do. And I need a system for dealing

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Speaker 2: with the things that come to me that are like

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Speaker 2: you know, business or you know, people want me to

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Speaker 2: come do a keynote or teach a boot camp or something.

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Speaker 2: And I need a system for I need coaching, honestly,

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Speaker 2: for the creative work. And it's hard to admit when

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Speaker 2: you have written a book is supposed to be like

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Speaker 2: an advice book about you know, attention management and time.

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Speaker 2: It's hard to admit that you need help with that

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Speaker 2: very thing. But it's in a new arena for me

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Speaker 2: and I and I when I finally admitted it, and

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Speaker 2: I went to a friend who I had worked with

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Speaker 2: at like Google, and she's she's brilliant. It's great coach,

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Speaker 2: and she's able in just a few hours. You know,

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Speaker 2: she's not sort of a full time assistant. She used

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Speaker 2: to be a few hours of kind of coaching and

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Speaker 2: looking at my inbox and saying, look, here's how you

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Speaker 2: need to organize it, and saying, like, if people you

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Speaker 2: know in your email like you need to put an

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Speaker 2: out of office responder and I need here's what needs

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Speaker 2: to say. And that's been huge. That's been that's been

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Speaker 2: really huge, and in my sort of peculiar situation, has

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Speaker 2: been exactly what I needed.

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Speaker 1: And has that helped you stay out of your inbox

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Speaker 1: more like almost to help resist that temptation?

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Speaker 2: It does. Yeah, it's It was a really big deal

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Speaker 2: to me. I got an email, so I was like

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Speaker 2: emailing a friend who's a writer, and I got he

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Speaker 2: had this out of office you know, auto responder that

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Speaker 2: said I'm out of email until May. Like this was

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Speaker 2: in maybe February or something. I got this email from

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Speaker 2: him and I was like, wow, what that's so cool?

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Speaker 2: And it said it said I'm off, I'm out of

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Speaker 2: email till May, working on a writing project and if

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Speaker 2: it's urgent, text me or send an email to and

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Speaker 2: he has an assistant and he works with email the

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Speaker 2: assistant And I emailed it to my friend who's coaching me,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, what do you think we should do?

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Speaker 2: What do you think about this? And she's like you

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Speaker 2: need to do that, Like you're not going to I

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Speaker 2: wanted to write it after by May actually have my

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Speaker 2: book and she's like, that's what you need to do,

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Speaker 2: otherwise it's not going to happen. And I was like, well,

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Speaker 2: maybe I could do it for you know, a week

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Speaker 2: or two weeks. I could say I was offline. She's like,

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Speaker 2: come on, like you need to do the whole thing.

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Speaker 2: So that was really hard to take that step to

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Speaker 2: write that auto responder, you know, and this is probably

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Speaker 2: a tactic I should add to the new tactics. To

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Speaker 2: write that auto responder was tough, but once I did it,

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Speaker 2: it was very freeing to like the first few hours,

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Speaker 2: you know, to know that emails were coming in and

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Speaker 2: people were getting that that bounced back to them. I

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Speaker 2: was like, oh god, what are people going to say?

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Speaker 2: But people were like fine with it, like nobody. I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is a common challenge that we see again and

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Speaker 2: again as you talk to people about make time, which

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Speaker 2: is like we had we all have this expectation that

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Speaker 2: other people are like much more keenly interested in our

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Speaker 2: response time and much more judgmental of us than they

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Speaker 2: actually are. And and if we the really that judgment

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Speaker 2: comes from side ourselves, like that mean for me, that's

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Speaker 2: one hundred percent true. The expectation is actually generated by

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Speaker 2: me that I'm this kind of person who gets back

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Speaker 2: to you and out of respect for you.

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Speaker 1: I want to get back.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, and like there's a there's god getting past

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Speaker 2: that and realizing where the actual boundary was, what's the

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Speaker 2: actual response time that different things need. And granted, it

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Speaker 2: helps a ton to have a friend looking in on

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Speaker 2: your inbox, but that's something I think. I don't know

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Speaker 2: what the right arrangement is, but I have this notion

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Speaker 2: that a lot of people, even without you know, an assistant,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people could benefit from this notion of

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Speaker 2: a friend who will look in on your inbox, or

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Speaker 2: a friend who can be the designated contact person. If

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Speaker 2: so that you can have an out of office thing

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Speaker 2: that says, if it's urgent, contact this person and they'll

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Speaker 2: know how to get in touch with me. And if that,

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Speaker 2: you know, maybe you can maybe you can have like

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Speaker 2: an agreement that you do it for each other or something.

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Speaker 2: But that's really powerful, like to give people a way

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Speaker 2: to escalate if they need it, and then say, normally

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Speaker 2: my rule is going to be And for me it's

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Speaker 2: been like I'm not going to check, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: there's a category of email I'm not going to check

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Speaker 2: except for every like few weeks, like it might be

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Speaker 2: two to three weeks before I look at those. And

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Speaker 2: there's one category I'm going to check every day if

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Speaker 2: it's like from certain people who I know have urgent emails.

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Speaker 2: I have, like you know, like two VIP sort of people,

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Speaker 2: and then there's going to be one kind that I

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Speaker 2: check once a week and deal with like business kinds

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Speaker 2: of emails, and other than that, I have to promise

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Speaker 2: myself I'm not on email. And it's still hard, but

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Speaker 2: that makes it doable. And that, man, I'm telling you, Amantha,

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Speaker 2: that unlocks for me, like the ability to get in

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Speaker 2: to do something that's really hard, and like the sci

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Speaker 2: fi writing fiction, there's no I'm you know, nobody's probably

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Speaker 2: ever going to read this book. I don't know if

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Speaker 2: it's any good, but it's fun to do because it's

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Speaker 2: so hard and it's also awful to do. It's also

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Speaker 2: like miserable at the time, but I am doing it

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Speaker 2: because it's so hard and it I can't I could

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Speaker 2: not have a chance of doing that hard thing if

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Speaker 2: I couldn't create that that boundary. And because it's so

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Speaker 2: hard to maintain on this one, the confidence that the

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Speaker 2: work matters. I've needed that extra boost, you know, whereas

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Speaker 2: when writing like Sprint or make Time, there was more

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Speaker 2: of a signal that people are people would want this,

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Speaker 2: you know. The publisher said that, well, we'll publish the book.

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Speaker 2: When you're writing fiction, it's different and I've needed more

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Speaker 2: to get through it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I just want to I want to read

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Speaker 1: out your auto respondent because I've just found it here

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Speaker 1: in front of me, and it says HI, between shelter

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Speaker 1: in place with the kids at home and stealing heads

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Speaker 1: down time for a writing project, I'm slow as heck

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Speaker 1: on email right now. If you need something of any

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Speaker 1: kind of timeline, please email you're assistant or text me.

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Speaker 1: So it's really simple and to the point, and I

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Speaker 1: love that. I love your thoughts on email. That is

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Speaker 1: it for today's show. If you want to listen to

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Speaker 1: the full episode, I link to that in the show notes,

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Speaker 1: so you might want to check that out. And if

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Speaker 1: you are enjoying how I work, I would be so

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Speaker 1: deeply grateful if you just take five seconds out of

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Speaker 1: your date to leave a review in Apple podcasts. It

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Speaker 1: might be a star rating or a few words, and

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Speaker 1: by doing so, it helps other people find the show

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Speaker 1: and it also brings a huge smile to my face.

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Speaker 1: So thank you to the hundreds of people that have

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Speaker 1: left reviews. It is so deeply appreciated. So that is

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Speaker 1: it for today's show and I will see you next time.