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Speaker 1: Now we know these estimates obviously continue, and yesterday it

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Speaker 1: was Chancey Pake in the hot seat with a number

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Speaker 1: of questions about corrections. Minister Pake appeared alongside the Corrections

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Speaker 1: com Commissioner Matthew Varley and revealed that the department had

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Speaker 1: paid thirteen point five three million dollars in overtime two

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Speaker 1: Corrections workers in the eleven months to May this year.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, attrition in corrections also increased two

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Speaker 1: percent to ten percent. When further questioned, though, neither mister

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Speaker 1: Pake nor mister Varley could tell the committee how many

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Speaker 1: job vacancies were present in Corrections, citing rolling recruitment processes.

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Speaker 1: Now joining me on the line to tell us a

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Speaker 1: bit more about this from her perspective is the Independent

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Speaker 1: member Ferarra lu And Robin Lamley. Good morning to.

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Speaker 2: You, Robin, Good morning Katie. Robin.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like it was an interesting day yesterday. You

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Speaker 1: accused the Justice Minister of deliberately avoiding answering questions. What

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Speaker 1: were you trying to get to the bottom of, Well.

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Speaker 2: He was avoiding answering questions around the vacancies within corrections.

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Speaker 2: We that is Steve Edgington, the Member for Barkley and

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Speaker 2: myself were tag teaming asking him multiple questions him and

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Speaker 2: the corrections Minister Commissioner about simply a simple question which

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Speaker 2: is asked to every minister in their portfolio, how many

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Speaker 2: vacancies do you have in your department? And they absolutely

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Speaker 2: refuse to answer it, which leads to one conclusion that

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Speaker 2: they're hiding it. And the other conclusion I think you

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Speaker 2: can safely make is that things are very very bad

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Speaker 2: within our prisons in terms of staffing. And in fact,

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Speaker 2: after the session with Minister Paig, I got a couple

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Speaker 2: of text messages confirming that that things are so bad

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Speaker 2: within the prisons there was a texta came through to

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Speaker 2: me saying that the Alice Springs Prison is operating on

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Speaker 2: half the staff at me goodness, meeking for the time.

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Speaker 2: I mean that must make crisis.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's right, That must make it incredibly difficult for

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Speaker 1: those stuff that are there to be able to do

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Speaker 1: their jobs. But I would imagine as well that it

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Speaker 1: has an impact then when it comes to some of

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Speaker 1: those rehabilitation programs and different things being delivered to try

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Speaker 1: and rehabilitate prisoners.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's not happening, Katie it's certainly not in the

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Speaker 2: Alice Springs Prison. I went out there a month ago,

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Speaker 2: and I've had a long relationship with Alice Springs Prison.

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Speaker 2: I was even an official visitor years ago before I

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Speaker 2: came into politics, around two thousand and eight or seven

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Speaker 2: or something like that. And I went out there a

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Speaker 2: month ago, and I could not believe the lack of activity.

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Speaker 2: A few years ago, and I have to say, under

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Speaker 2: the colp things were pumping out there. The industries were

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Speaker 2: going gangbusters. They were baking, they were making, printing, manufacturing

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Speaker 2: all sorts of different things. There was zip going on

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Speaker 2: out there when I went there a month ago, and

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Speaker 2: the minister tried to paint a picture that there were

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Speaker 2: things happening, but in actual fact, when you're on half

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Speaker 2: the staff you normally need and your prisoners are over

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Speaker 2: your prisons are over full. We have the highest incarceraate

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Speaker 2: we've probably ever seen in the Northern Territory. At the moment,

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Speaker 2: there is nothing really going on apart from the fact

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Speaker 2: they're being fed and they were spectacularly clean and tidy.

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Speaker 2: But rehabilitation, I don't think there's much going on at all,

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Speaker 2: probably anything. Really.

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Speaker 1: It is a big call to say that he was

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Speaker 1: deliberately trying not to answer questions. Why do you think

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Speaker 1: that was the case?

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Speaker 2: Because I think things are so bad. I think that

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Speaker 2: they just cannot get staff. When I was at the

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Speaker 2: prison in Alice Springs, I sat down with a few

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Speaker 2: of the chief executive staff there and they were saying

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Speaker 2: that that is their biggest problem at the moment. They

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Speaker 2: just cannot attract staff. And we were told yesterday by

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Speaker 2: Minister Kirby later on in the day, the Minister for

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Speaker 2: Employment the Public Service, that nationally this is a problem.

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Speaker 2: It's not unique to the Northern Territory, but we always

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Speaker 2: find it harder up here to attract people because we

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Speaker 2: are so remote, our climate is so extreme in the

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Speaker 2: desert in the top end, and the cost of living

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Speaker 2: is of course a lot higher. So I think that

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Speaker 2: the prisons in the Northern Territory are definitely facing a crisis.

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Speaker 2: They are acutely short staffed. And what we saw yesterday

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Speaker 2: was a Minister for Corrections and a Commissioner for Corrections

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Speaker 2: that were not telling territory in the truth.

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Speaker 1: What do you think needs to happen here, Robin.

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Speaker 2: Well, some honesty to start with that. Apparently we're not

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Speaker 2: going to get that. Look, I think there probably needs

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Speaker 2: to be some sort of inquiry made into it. Whether

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Speaker 2: it's issued at at some sort of high level, I

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Speaker 2: don't know. But when the government shuts down, they shut down,

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Speaker 2: and to get inside and find out what's really going

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Speaker 2: on is almost impossible. But you know, Budget Estimates is

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Speaker 2: a parliamentary committee and one of the requirements is that

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Speaker 2: anyone coming before a parliamentary committee must tell the truth.

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Speaker 2: And we were not being told the truth yesterday because

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Speaker 2: I look back just quickly this morning over previous estimates

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Speaker 2: and the contribution made by corrections ministers and corrections commissioners,

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Speaker 2: and they do they have in the past provided information

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Speaker 2: around staff vacancies. The commissioner yesterday was muddling around trying

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Speaker 2: to convince us that for some bizarre reason he couldn't

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Speaker 2: do that. Corrections is no different for many other service

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Speaker 2: that provides a twenty four hour service, like hospital, police

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Speaker 2: or many other public serve parts of the public service.

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Speaker 2: Why he couldn't provide that information is a rational and

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Speaker 2: misleading Robin.

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Speaker 1: I know that there's going to be people listening this

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Speaker 1: morning thinking, you know, it is a massive call to

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Speaker 1: say that they're being misleading and you know, not passing

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Speaker 1: over that information to those out there listening who are

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Speaker 1: thinking that and are thinking to themselves, Oh, I don't

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Speaker 1: know about this. You know, what does Robin Lambley have

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Speaker 1: to actually support the claims that she's making that are

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Speaker 1: the prison systems in crisis? What would you say to them?

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Speaker 2: Well, go back over the transcript from yesterday. That should

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Speaker 2: be made public to territorians today. Have a look at

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Speaker 2: what he said and the number of questions we fired

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Speaker 2: at both the minister and the commissioner. He had every opportunity,

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Speaker 2: or they have every opportunity to provide that information. We

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Speaker 2: asked the same information as the Education Minister, the Health Minister,

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Speaker 2: every other minister that's come before the Estimates Committee could

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Speaker 2: answer that, but for some strange reason the Commissioner said

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Speaker 2: that he couldn't. It just didn't stack up. Look, it

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Speaker 2: is a serious allegation to make that I stand by it.

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Speaker 2: We were not given the truth yesterday in budget estimate.

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Speaker 1: Robin just very quickly, was there any further detail provided?

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Speaker 1: I know that you know that the prison right that

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Speaker 1: had happened was quite some time ago. Has there been

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Speaker 1: sort of any further detail provided? Throughout that process yesterday

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Speaker 1: as well when it comes to some of the damage

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Speaker 1: and some of the different incidents that we've seen in

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Speaker 1: our prisons over the last twelve months.

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Speaker 2: Look to be honest, we didn't even get to that,

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Speaker 2: which is a little bit remissive us really, but the

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Speaker 2: time just runs that so quickly, and we did thoroughly

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Speaker 2: scrutinize the the Minister and the Commissioner around the issue

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Speaker 2: of staffing because that was the glaring problem that it

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Speaker 2: arose yesterday. We didn't get to that, and that's something

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Speaker 2: that was remissive us. I suppose in hindsight.

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Speaker 1: I have no doubt Robin, that there'll be questions asked

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Speaker 1: at some other point as well throughout the parliamentary process.

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Speaker 2: Over No lady has not sung.

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Speaker 1: Well, Robin Laveley. We always appreciate your time. Unfortunately we

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Speaker 1: are going to have to leave it there, but will

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Speaker 1: no doubt catch up with you again soon.

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Speaker 2: Many thanks, Katie, Thank you,