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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcoton woman from Gadighal Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres,

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Speaker 1: Straight Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os. It's Wednesday,

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Speaker 2: the twelfth of April.

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Speaker 3: I'm Zara, I'm Sam.

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Speaker 2: The Federal government is banning TikTok from all government devices.

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Speaker 2: It follows an extensive review into the social media app

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Speaker 2: by the Home Affairs Department, with security concerns raised over the.

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Speaker 4: App, concerns that user data could be accessed by the

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Speaker 4: Chinese Communist Party.

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Speaker 2: So what's caused the ban and what does it mean

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Speaker 2: for the future of the app here in Australia. We're

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Speaker 2: going to let you know in a deep dive. But

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Speaker 2: first Sam the headlines.

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Speaker 3: And Lisa resigned as the Shadow Minister for Indigenous Australians

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Speaker 3: and Shadow Attorney General yesterday. His decision was due to

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Speaker 3: the Liberal Party's opposition to a constitutionally enshrined Indigenous Voice

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Speaker 3: to Parliament, with Lisa saying he was in a different

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Speaker 3: position to a majority of his party room. The voice

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Speaker 3: is not about special privileges. It is about recognizing that

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Speaker 3: Indigenous Australians are our brothers and sisters and we have

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Speaker 3: left them behind in our shared national project.

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Speaker 2: The Australian and Chinese governments have struck a deal that

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Speaker 2: may end trade tariffs on Australian balali. The tariffs have

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Speaker 2: effectively blocked barley trade with China since twenty twenty, after

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Speaker 2: the then Morrison government called for an independent inquiry into

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Speaker 2: the origins and response to COVID nineteen. The federal government

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Speaker 2: has agreed to suspend its international dispute over the tariffs

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Speaker 2: while China undertakes a review.

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Speaker 3: The hackers responsible for last month's data breach of Latitude

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Speaker 3: Financial Services have issued a ransom demand details from proxly.

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Speaker 3: Fourteen million customers were stolen in the breach, which Latitude

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Speaker 3: said originated from one of its major trading partners. Latitude

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Speaker 3: has already said it won't pay the roundsom, saying there's

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Speaker 3: no guarantee that doing so would result in a positive

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Speaker 3: outcome for customers.

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Speaker 2: And the good news. Five new tree frog species have

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Speaker 2: been found by an Australian scientist in Papua New Guinea.

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Speaker 2: The frogs are from the wet mountain forest areas in

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Speaker 2: the Central Mountain Range of p ANDNG and were collected

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Speaker 2: over a thirty year period. They include one that actually

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Speaker 2: camouflages with bird droppings.

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Speaker 5: There you go.

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Speaker 2: Sam Researchers said this study will support conservation efforts. Last week,

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Speaker 2: the Federal government announced that TikTok would be banned from

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Speaker 2: all federal government devices. The Victorian and New South Wales

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Speaker 2: governments have also said that they will be banning the

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Speaker 2: app on their devices. This is just the latest in

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Speaker 2: a wave of bands around the world, with countries like Canada,

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Speaker 2: the US, UK and New Zealand already having these kinds

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Speaker 2: of restrictions in place.

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Speaker 3: It sucks Aara because I was just starting to like

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Speaker 3: our TikTok producer, Chloe. She was really starting to grow

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Speaker 3: on me. And Nah, don't worry, Chloe, your time on

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Speaker 3: the TDA TikTok is far from.

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Speaker 2: Over, Chloe. If you're listening to us, your job is safe.

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Speaker 2: This banned by the federal government doesn't mean that they're

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Speaker 2: going to ban TikTok Australia wide. It only applies to

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Speaker 2: devices that are issued by Commonwealth departments and agencies. So

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Speaker 2: if your phone has been given to you by your work,

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Speaker 2: which is either a federal government agency or department, you're

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Speaker 2: not allowed to have TikTok on that specific device, though

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Speaker 2: what you do on your own personal device is up

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Speaker 2: to you.

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Speaker 3: That's a huge relief, especially for the TikTok diehards amongst us. Now,

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Speaker 3: this order came from the Attorney General, Mark Drefers.

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Speaker 2: What was his reasoning, Well, what it all comes down

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Speaker 2: to is concerns over security and foreign interference. In a

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Speaker 2: statement the ag Mark Dreyfer said that he made his

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Speaker 2: choice after receipt advice from intelligence and security agencies. It's

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Speaker 2: understood that he was also informed by a review into

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Speaker 2: foreign interference through social media applications, but that hasn't been

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Speaker 2: publicly released yet, so we don't know what else is

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Speaker 2: in it, but we do know that it helped to

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Speaker 2: inform this decision.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so not much concrete information there, but from what

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Speaker 3: we know already, why would TikTok be a potential security

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Speaker 3: and foreign interference risk?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think before I answered that it's a good

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Speaker 2: thing to say that a lot of us feel like

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Speaker 2: sacrificing some level of privacy and data is one of

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Speaker 2: the prices that we pay to be on social media.

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Speaker 2: But what makes TikTok perceived as a higher risk, especially

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Speaker 2: to the government, is that it's owned by a Chinese

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Speaker 2: company called Byteedance. In twenty seventeen, China's National Intelligence Law

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Speaker 2: came into effect, which meant that organizations in China have

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Speaker 2: to cooperate with state intelligence agencies. So, in other words,

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Speaker 2: under law, bite Down could potentially have to share TikTok's

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Speaker 2: user data with the Chinese government. TikTok has always been

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Speaker 2: adamant and still to this day remain adamant that they

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Speaker 2: don't share Australian user data with the Chinese government. Lee Hunter,

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Speaker 2: who's the boss of TikTok Australia, has also said he's

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Speaker 2: extremely disappointed by the ban of TikTok on Commonwealth devices

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Speaker 2: and he's labeled it as driven by politics and not

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Speaker 2: by fact. This is Hunter speaking to sixty Minutes last month.

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Speaker 5: I do think TikTok is being unfairly targeted. I think

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Speaker 5: a lot of the time we're dealing with accusations, misinformation,

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Speaker 5: a lot of political theater, frankly, and I don't think

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Speaker 5: it's based on evidence.

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Speaker 2: Now. It's hard to know for sure, because, as I said,

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Speaker 2: the Attorney General hasn't exactly spelled it out. But it

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Speaker 2: is possible that one of the concerns around TikTok on

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Speaker 2: the devices of government officials is that other information on

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Speaker 2: their phones could actually put them at risk, so either

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Speaker 2: as a blackmail target or to pro file people's movements

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Speaker 2: and habits for potential espionage. One of the things that

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Speaker 2: I learned while researching this topic was that gay dating

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Speaker 2: app Grinder also used to be owned by a Chinese company.

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Speaker 2: Did you know that?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 3: I didn't know that.

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Speaker 2: Neither did I. So Grinder was bought out in twenty

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Speaker 2: sixteen by a Chinese company called Beijing Kunlun Tek, which

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Speaker 2: the US perceived as a risk to their national security,

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Speaker 2: So after significant pressure from a US national security panel,

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Speaker 2: the app was actually sold to an investor group with

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Speaker 2: at least one US investor in twenty twenty. Well, the

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Speaker 2: national security panel didn't give too much information surrounding their concerns.

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Speaker 2: There was speculation at the time about the highly sensitive

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Speaker 2: nature of the information that was provided on Grinder, which is,

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Speaker 2: as I said, a dating app, so would have deeply

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Speaker 2: personal information and the security risk it could pose. If

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Speaker 2: we go back to the case of TikTok, though, both

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Speaker 2: US President Joe Biden and former US President and future

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Speaker 2: Ptent Central President Donald Trump have tried to reach a

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Speaker 2: similar outcome and to get TikTok to sell to a

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Speaker 2: North American company. That conversation seems to have stalled, though,

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Speaker 2: and in the meantime, legislation has been introduced to potentially

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Speaker 2: banned TikTok in the US all together. And I am

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Speaker 2: on TikTok, and a couple of weeks ago, I saw

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Speaker 2: all these goodbye videos of like famous TikTokers waving goodbye

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Speaker 2: and crying, and it's because they thought that TikTok was

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Speaker 2: going to shut down the next day.

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Speaker 3: And was that in time with the Congressional committee hearing

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Speaker 3: where lawmakers questioned TikTok.

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Speaker 2: Ceo, it was so every second video with someone crying,

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Speaker 2: and then interspersed with that was TikTok ceo Shao Zi

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Speaker 2: Chu appearing as you said, in the US Congress that

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Speaker 2: was part of a committee hearing that was looking into

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Speaker 2: how to safeguard American data privacy and to protect children

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Speaker 2: from online harms. Throughout his appearance, che asserted that byte Edance,

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Speaker 2: which as I said, was TikTok's parent company, is not

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Speaker 2: an agent of China, and that in particular, US data

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Speaker 2: is safe on the app.

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Speaker 4: Our approach has never been to dismiss or trivialize any

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Speaker 4: of these concerns. We have addressed them with real action.

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Speaker 4: Now that's what we've been doing for the last two years,

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Speaker 4: building what amounts to a firewall, the seals of protected

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Speaker 4: US user data from unauthorized foreign access. The bottom line

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Speaker 4: is this American data stored on American soil by an

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Speaker 4: American company, overseen by American personnel.

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Speaker 2: So, as part of these sort of negotiations about what

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Speaker 2: happens to TikTok's future, the company has pledged to relocate

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Speaker 2: US user data to servers that are based locally in

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Speaker 2: the US to mitigate fears as such that the Chinese

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Speaker 2: government has access to data that's stored in servers in China.

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Speaker 2: The finn here in Australia is reporting that the Australian

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Speaker 2: government is considering a similar project to bring Aussie data

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Speaker 2: to servers here locally as part of a National Data

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Speaker 2: Security Action Plan so Zara.

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Speaker 3: In light of everything that we've talked about today, the

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Speaker 3: security fears around the world and the Commonwealth bands now

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Speaker 3: in Australia, are Australian politicians actually leaving the app?

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Speaker 2: Well, that was my question and we reached out to

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Speaker 2: a bunch of different polleys because there are a lot

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Speaker 2: of politicians on TikTok. I mean, if you think about it,

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Speaker 2: it is like the pre eminent way to reach the

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Speaker 2: young audience, especially those kind of eighteen to twenty fours

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Speaker 2: that are really hard to engage. Some of the people

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Speaker 2: who told us they planned to stay on the app

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Speaker 2: included Federal Minister for the Environment and Water, that's Tanya Plibisek,

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Speaker 2: Labor backbencher Julian Hill, who was one of the early

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Speaker 2: adopters of the app, and South Australian Premier Peter malanaskis

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Speaker 2: just to clarify, though these politicians can continue to have

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Speaker 2: TikTok on their personal phones, they're just gon't be doing

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Speaker 2: anything on their government phones. Victorian Premier Dan Andrews has

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Speaker 2: said he plans to delete his account. A new New

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Speaker 2: South Wales Premier Chris Mins has already deleted his He

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Speaker 2: was very, very prominent on TikTok throughout the election, so

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Speaker 2: that was interesting to see. As far as any further

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Speaker 2: bans in Australia go, well, we haven't had any indication

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Speaker 2: from the government that a more widespread ban is on

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Speaker 2: the card for people like you and me, though it

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Speaker 2: is something that the opposition seems i'd say open to.

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Speaker 2: Shadow Cybersecurity Minister James Patterson said that putting a ban

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Speaker 2: on the table could make TikTok more willing to negotiate.

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Speaker 2: I think that that's interesting when we consider how the

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Speaker 2: government and big tech in the past have negotiated when

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Speaker 2: Facebook took news off its platform entirely, and whether those

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Speaker 2: sorts of negotiations break down or actually lead to a

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Speaker 2: better outcome.

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Speaker 3: So, speaking to you Zara, as Zara the business owner, now,

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Speaker 3: do you think the Daily Olls should keep its TikTok?

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Speaker 2: I think it'll be interesting to read the reviews and

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Speaker 2: the advice that Mark Drefus, the Attorney General received, because

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Speaker 2: again we haven't actually seen that, so a lot of

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Speaker 2: what we're hearing about data sharing and so on is

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Speaker 2: actually hearsay. Right now. That said, I think for us

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Speaker 2: as a business who tries to meet young people where

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Speaker 2: they're at. TikTok is undeniably where young Australians are. I

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Speaker 2: spend a lot of time on there.

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Speaker 3: And you're not even young.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Sam really needed that today. I'm

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Speaker 2: not young, but our friends who deserve to and want

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Speaker 2: to be engaging in the news are, and if we're

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Speaker 2: trying to put news in front of them when they're

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Speaker 2: on their social travels at this point, I think that

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Speaker 2: that should include TikTok, where a lot of that eighteen

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Speaker 2: to twenty four demographic are, and there is a lot

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Speaker 2: of misinformation on that app, and so I think that

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Speaker 2: if we can fill that vacuum with factual information based reporting,

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Speaker 2: then that is a good thing to be doing. But

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Speaker 2: I mean, these things change on a daily basis, and

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Speaker 2: it's difficult to know what the future holds.

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Speaker 3: I know this isn't the last time we're going to

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Speaker 3: be talking about TikTok on this podcast, and I know

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Speaker 3: that a lot of you guys listening have a lot

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Speaker 3: of questions as users of the app yourself. We don't

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Speaker 3: have all the answers, particularly around cybersecurity. In some of

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Speaker 3: that kind of more technical, but we are going to

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Speaker 3: talk to a security expert, so let us know what

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Speaker 3: questions you have and we'll work on an episode for you.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us on the Daily OS. If you

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Speaker 2: learned something from today's episode, don't forget to hit subscribe

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Speaker 2: so there's a TVA episode waiting for you every weekday morning.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back again tomorrow morning, but until then, have

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Speaker 2: a brilliant day.