Speaker 1: Flex and Frooms, Flex and Frooms. This is the Flex
Speaker 1: and Frooms catch up podcast. Have Your Flex Ever heard
Speaker 1: of the term limerens? I have, Yes. What does it mean?
Speaker 2: I would say limerens is that obsessive state you find
Speaker 2: yourself in at the beginning of a crush, where you
Speaker 2: are just so swamped by thoughts of them and fantasies
Speaker 2: of them, and you live more in the delusion of
Speaker 2: the situation than the reality.
Speaker 1: You are so spot on, my darling, look at that
Speaker 1: face of satisfaction that you deserve to be weary. So
Speaker 1: this I brought this up as like an urgent psa
Speaker 1: urgent for the girlies, and by girlies, I'm in every
Speaker 1: single person.
Speaker 2: When we say girlies, we truly mean everyone.
Speaker 1: Seriously. It's like when you say the everyman, or like
Speaker 1: God created man, God created girlie. Yes, this is what
Speaker 1: the girlies who gets obsessed with crushes. It actually has
Speaker 1: a word. It's called limerens. We have spoken about this
Speaker 1: before on our pod, but actually wanted to go more
Speaker 1: in depth because I just think that the term crush
Speaker 1: does not encapsulate an experience that adults can go through
Speaker 1: when they start seeing someone or etc.
Speaker 2: And not every crush is limerent, and not every limerent
Speaker 2: behavior is due to a crush. Sometimes we just are
Speaker 2: delusional and obsessive, and sometimes we are just appreciative in
Speaker 2: a very extreme way.
Speaker 1: So, yes, you can become obsessed to things that aren't romantic.
Speaker 1: But often when we talk about limerens, we're talking about
Speaker 1: romantic infatuations, often with a sexual element. So it is
Speaker 1: a state of mind which results from romantic feelings for
Speaker 1: another person and includes intrusive, melancholic thoughts, or sometimes tragic
Speaker 1: concerns for the object of one's affection, as well as
Speaker 1: the extreme desire to form or maintain a relationship and
Speaker 1: have one's feelings reciprocated. Often, limerence is made worse when
Speaker 1: there is not reciprocated desire. It can also be defined
Speaker 1: as an involuntary state of intense desire. Oh, that's a
Speaker 1: nice way to put it, isn't it. Limerence is and
Speaker 1: I think you're going to really like this. Whoever's listening,
Speaker 1: who gets obsessed with crushes? It is an involuntary, potentially
Speaker 1: inspiring state of adoration and attachment to a limerent object.
Speaker 2: Eg.
Speaker 1: You're crush involving intrusive, obsessive thoughts, feelings, and behaviors from
Speaker 1: euphoria to despair, contingent on perceived emotional reciprocation. So how
Speaker 1: does that work in the modern day. It's texting. Someone
Speaker 1: texts you, they text you back, you feel euphoria, you're
Speaker 1: waiting on their text. We're going through the despair cycle.
Speaker 1: That is essentially a key part of limerence. It is
Speaker 1: characterized by internal experiences like ruminative thinking, anxiety and depression,
Speaker 1: temporary fixation, and the disregulization dysregulation of the self. So
Speaker 1: if you are perhaps an OCD girly bit of an
Speaker 1: obsessive type, you are anxious or maybe even on the spectrum,
Speaker 1: and you sometimes find that you will go through fixations.
Speaker 1: I think you might experience this. If you're wondering how
Speaker 1: do I discern limerence verse love? Think think we really
Speaker 1: need to think of this in the early stages of dating.
Speaker 1: So the texting context, the context where you're not exclusive,
Speaker 1: you haven't defined a relationship. Are we talking a situation?
Speaker 1: Is this going to be my future hubby, wife, life partner? Partner?
Speaker 1: In quotations because you know, we don't use that term
Speaker 1: P in the Flex and Frooms show, and one of
Speaker 1: the original philosophers who spoke about this ten of differentiates
Speaker 1: limreents and love by asserting that love involves concern for
Speaker 1: the other person's welfare and feeling yeah, whereas limerence does
Speaker 1: not require it. So you can really be obsessed with
Speaker 1: someone and it feels like love, and you have all
Speaker 1: of these really intense emotions. We actually don't care about
Speaker 1: their welfare. You don't really care if they're happy. You
Speaker 1: just want them so badly that your judgment is clouded,
Speaker 1: otherwise known in this modern dating context as being d lulu. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, I would also say, and what I've come to
Speaker 2: understand from limerens is that it's a very individual process,
Speaker 2: as in the person that you're dealing with isn't really
Speaker 2: influencing your limeren state. It kind of exists in your
Speaker 2: bubble where you decide it's going well or not going
Speaker 2: well based on whatever how you're feeling, what you want
Speaker 2: from them, whether you're happy in a different part of
Speaker 2: your life. It all kind of puts pressure on your
Speaker 2: perception on what it is or how it is, and
Speaker 2: if you wants it or not.
Speaker 1: I think you need to ask yourself first and foremost,
Speaker 1: and even if it isn't limberate even if you're like
Speaker 1: in the seeing stage of someone, I think you need
Speaker 1: to ask yourself what do you actually like about this process? So,
Speaker 1: of course, I think when you start dating someone, when
Speaker 1: you have a crush, it is really exciting, and part
Speaker 1: of that is like not knowing how it's going to go.
Speaker 1: So I think, like, of course that's going to be
Speaker 1: enjoyable and bring up a lot of different emotions. But
Speaker 1: if it's actually on the whole making you unhappy, drawing
Speaker 1: you away from your life, then we need to start
Speaker 1: reassessing a is this on you to, as we say,
Speaker 1: get another hobby, or is it perhaps the way they're
Speaker 1: behaving that is making you feel or that is influencing
Speaker 1: an insecure mindset?
Speaker 2: And I will say the difference between limerents and a
Speaker 2: craw I've read is that limerens kind of feels like
Speaker 2: an obsession despite the reality, and a crush is kind
Speaker 2: of like an attraction based on who the person is,
Speaker 2: Like I'm attracted to what they look like, I'm attracted
Speaker 2: to the way they speak, I'm attracted to how they
Speaker 2: show up in the world. It centers them, it pedestalizes
Speaker 2: kind of them and your relationship with them, whereas limerence
Speaker 2: kind of obsesses over the fantasy and the possibility, sometimes
Speaker 2: influenced by what they've said or done, but wholly influenced
Speaker 2: by just what you want.
Speaker 1: Yes, wow, okay, I think something that you should think of.
Speaker 1: And I've fallen into this trap before, is what is
Speaker 1: having this intense crush serving you? So I have found
Speaker 1: in the past times in my life where I've not
Speaker 1: had enough on is when the crushes have been the
Speaker 1: most crushing set to speak. So, I've been through an
Speaker 1: experience before where like I've had a relation ship end
Speaker 1: and I could have gotten it back, but they did
Speaker 1: something for example that I was just like, I can't
Speaker 1: go there. Then for a whole year they are a
Speaker 1: liminent object to me, even though I don't want them.
Speaker 1: They have become this kind of like like a better
Speaker 1: erge symbol and obsession. That is, it's not even about them,
Speaker 1: because then you know, I had this experience once and
Speaker 1: I caught up with them a little while later. It's
Speaker 1: like the illusion was shattered. It was all in my head.
Speaker 1: It was always this guests game, what are they thinking?
Speaker 1: Am I going to see them? Da da da da da?
Speaker 1: And it was very interesting that it actually wasn't contingent
Speaker 1: on whether or not they liked me back, because they
Speaker 1: kind of did. Well, I knew that they did, but
Speaker 1: I in my mind had like made up that we
Speaker 1: were never going to get back together. Does that kind
Speaker 1: of make sense? So it wasn't a crush, but it
Speaker 1: was this kind of obsession. And I will say, I
Speaker 1: reckon if you are prone to OCD or obsessional thinking,
Speaker 1: I think it's very likely that you will have an
Speaker 1: experience like this in your dating life. If you experience limitents,
Speaker 1: but you haven't experienced obsessional thinking with anxiety. That's what
Speaker 1: like in my experience, Obsessional thinking with anxiety is lack
Speaker 1: but it's something that's not fun. So at least with
Speaker 1: the crush element, you've got something fun to fantasize about.
Speaker 1: I reckon as well. Think about in your life. So
Speaker 1: let's say you're in a liminerent phase with someone, You're
Speaker 1: in a bit of a delulu moment. Think what am
Speaker 1: I procrastinating? So I'm currently in this process of doing
Speaker 1: this really difficult thing which requires me to be really focused,
Speaker 1: which is writing the book. So tell me why I'm
Speaker 1: choosing any opportunity to be distracted. I'm getting crushes, I'm
Speaker 1: cleaning the house, like I'm doing all this stuff that's
Speaker 1: totally like making the procrastination so much worse. And then
Speaker 1: I've had to kind of reflect back and think, oh
Speaker 1: my god, did I even have a crush on that person?
Speaker 1: Did I even need to clean the house?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: Did I even? It's very funny and I think, like
Speaker 1: it's very hard to do in the moment, and I
Speaker 1: can actually only do this with hindsight. But think about
Speaker 1: what are you actually procrastinating, because it's often something that
Speaker 1: is not an easy fix. And finally, think about, and
Speaker 1: I've written this down, think about if this person's behavior
Speaker 1: is encouraging your preoccupation. Are they flaky? Do they take
Speaker 1: ages to respond to texts? And then you must figure
Speaker 1: out if this is something you're willing to tolerate. Verse
Speaker 1: how entitled are you to their time and how they
Speaker 1: spend it. This is where communication is key. Oh one
Speaker 1: final thing, girls, listening what you want to do if
Speaker 1: you have a limerent object, be where people that give you.
Speaker 1: I hate using all these day terms, but also it
Speaker 1: makes sense crumbs because if you're getting a little, even
Speaker 1: a little tiny bit of hope. It is massive fuel
Speaker 1: to the fire. It's like a firestarter. So starvation for
Speaker 1: once is the answer in this process. A lack of
Speaker 1: any notice so like an onslaught of evidence that the
Speaker 1: limited object does not return the limerens can gradually desensitize you.
Speaker 1: So in that case, I would say, girls and boys
Speaker 1: and girlies, if you aren't sure if they.
Speaker 2: Like you.
Speaker 1: Talking to them, no, but like stop talking to them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But then I feel like in the back of our
Speaker 1: little in the back of your mind, you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: maybe if I stopped talking, then they really like me.
Speaker 1: So do something like rip the bandit off and be like,
Speaker 1: all right, what are your intentions? And then if they
Speaker 1: make it clear that it's not what you want, then
Speaker 1: you can like, don't you also.
Speaker 2: Think like the the average person is just not good
Speaker 2: with confrontation or having to justify what they feel. So like,
Speaker 2: let's say you're in a limerate state. You have a crush,
Speaker 2: You're not sure if they like you, but they've got
Speaker 2: you in this despair dopamine cycle where they give you
Speaker 2: a little crme, you get excited. They don't they don't
Speaker 2: follow up, or they don't add more, they don't give
Speaker 2: you more crumbs and you get into a despair and
Speaker 2: then you might set up a shot so they can
Speaker 2: take it. So you might like post, they'll see and
Speaker 2: they'll acknowledge you and then give you another crime and
Speaker 2: then you're back in the cycle. So is it an
Speaker 2: option for example, if you're in this despair cycle, sorry,
Speaker 2: if you're in this limerates cycle or that's triggered by
Speaker 2: a person, if you remove yourself from the person, then
Speaker 2: they can't give you a crumb.
Speaker 1: So what would an example be like block their number potentially.
Speaker 2: But also I think from what you mentioned in those
Speaker 2: initial studies, Limerens has a lot just to do with you,
Speaker 2: like how you're perceiving the situation. So it's one of
Speaker 2: those well like they're not texting me because they're so intimidated,
Speaker 2: Oh my god, and they're just really nervous guys far out.
Speaker 1: It's so that that we have this common like we
Speaker 1: have these communication channels to like, it's so crazy how
Speaker 1: you don't have a unique experience, which.
Speaker 2: Is my favorite thing about being alive. I used to
Speaker 2: be like, no one's done life, Like I've done life.
Speaker 1: Everybody's done it. So TikTok exists and that's the best
Speaker 1: thing about it. We're always having Listening to The Flex
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