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Speaker 1: If I've said something stupid and thought, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: you said that stupid thing, the repercussions that are going

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Speaker 1: to be bad, I'd wait for the negative repercussions.

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Speaker 2: They wouldn't happen.

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Speaker 1: And though so then I've learned not to worry so

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Speaker 1: much about saying saying stupid things in public or in

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Speaker 1: media because because because, because.

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Speaker 2: Nobody is really that interested.

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Speaker 1: Ah so so, repercussions are never as big as you think.

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Speaker 2: They're going to be.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics

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Speaker 3: are used by leading innovators to get so much out

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Speaker 3: of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amatha Imbat. I'm

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Speaker 3: an organizational psychologist, the founder of innovation consultancy Inventium, and

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Speaker 3: I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work. Date now.

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Speaker 3: Today's show was recorded live in Melbourne in October at

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Speaker 3: Inventium's hq UH and it was with Adam Ferrier, someone

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Speaker 3: who I have known for over a decade and I

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Speaker 3: was very excited to have on the show. So Adam

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Speaker 3: is a consumer psychologist and the co founder of thinker Bell,

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Speaker 3: an agency that fuses together marketing sciences and hardcore creativity,

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Speaker 3: or as they call it measured magic. Thinker Bell also

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Speaker 3: happens to be the current at News Creative Agency of

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Speaker 3: the Year. Adam is also the author of The Advertising Effect,

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Speaker 3: How to Change Behavior and sits on the boards of

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Speaker 3: several companies including Tribe, Good Thanks and PG or Pigi.

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Speaker 3: Now where you might have seen Adam is on your

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Speaker 3: TV set because he is a weekly guest on Australian

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Speaker 3: national TV show Sunrise and Your Money, and is also

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Speaker 3: a regular panelist on shows such as Gruen and The Project.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: I found this chat with Adam an absolute delight. Adam

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Speaker 3: has some very contrarian views, but is also very useful

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Speaker 3: and practical in how he thinks about things. So if

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Speaker 3: you've ever thought about your own personal brand, and if

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Speaker 3: you haven't, you probably should, I think that you'll find

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Speaker 3: this chat incredibly helpful in refining what it is that

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Speaker 3: you stand for. And look, there are a whole bunch

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Speaker 3: of other things that we cover as well. So on

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Speaker 3: that note, over to Adam to hear about how he works. Adam,

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Speaker 3: welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Hey, how are you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, very well. So I want to start by a memory,

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Speaker 3: one of my first memories I have of meeting you,

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Speaker 3: So I first met you maybe twelve years ago and

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Speaker 3: twelve to ten years ago, and I just moved up

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Speaker 3: to Sydney at the time because they've been recruited into

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Speaker 3: this role in advertising as a senior strategist, and I

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Speaker 3: thought that they'd made some error because I didn't have

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Speaker 3: that much experience. And we caught up for a drink

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Speaker 3: and I said, I'm feeling really nervous. I think they're

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Speaker 3: going to find out that I don't know my stuff.

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Speaker 3: So what should I do? And you basically said, You've

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Speaker 3: just got to fake it till you make it. That's

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Speaker 3: what everyone does. And I'm wondering, like, how how have

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Speaker 3: you applied that in your own life.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think before I I met you, I knew

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Speaker 1: what I wanted to do at school. I wanted to

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Speaker 1: become a consumer psychologist. Then I was travel around, went

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Speaker 1: to Africa, got lost in Africa for a while, came back,

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Speaker 1: was unemployable, and a made of mind.

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Speaker 2: Said to me.

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Speaker 1: I said, I don't know what I want to do

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Speaker 1: with my life, and he said to me, just have

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Speaker 1: a goal. Just pretend what that goal is, pretend you

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Speaker 1: really believe in it, don't worry about it, and then

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Speaker 1: start to do that, and I thought, oh shit, that's right.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to become.

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Speaker 1: A consumer psychologist ages ago, so I'll pretend I want

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Speaker 1: to do that again. And then I did that, and

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Speaker 1: then I ended up in forensic psychology, and then from

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Speaker 1: forensic psychology, I started doing other stuff.

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Speaker 2: So I did.

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Speaker 1: I do find that concept of pretending you're interested in

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Speaker 1: something or pretending that things are good. I think I

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Speaker 1: find that really works because I do. I find it

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Speaker 1: is really kind of powerful that you can We're all

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Speaker 1: very suggestible to messages, including the messages we send ourselves,

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Speaker 1: And so that's probably where fake it till you Make

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Speaker 1: it would have come from, is that if you pretend

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Speaker 1: you know what you're doing, then you end up knowing

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Speaker 1: what you're doing.

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Speaker 3: So how does that work for you? Like, let's just say,

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Speaker 3: you know, let's go back fifteen years or something like that,

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Speaker 3: and you're early on in your career in advertising and

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Speaker 3: you're in a client meeting. How are you feeling and

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Speaker 3: how are you how's that put into practice?

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Speaker 2: I guess it's a good question.

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Speaker 1: And because I'm probably maybe because I'm so adapted, it

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Speaker 1: it's all I've It's all I've really known, is I

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Speaker 1: guess it can maybe come back from a place of

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Speaker 1: having very low, low levels of ambition as well. Like

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Speaker 1: I've always been very very happy with whatever I've been

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Speaker 1: able to achieve and kind of surprise myself that I

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Speaker 1: can do as well as I've done, rather than striving.

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Speaker 2: To be even more.

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Speaker 1: And so if you have low expectations of whatever you do,

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Speaker 1: and then you constantly are amazed at how well you.

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Speaker 2: Have done something.

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Speaker 1: With that doesn't come the aimnxiety of having to perform

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Speaker 1: or having.

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Speaker 2: To be better than you are.

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Speaker 1: You can just go in there under the radar and

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Speaker 1: do a moderately okay job and be astoundedly be really

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Speaker 1: happy with yourself.

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Speaker 3: That is fascinating. That kind of blows my mind because

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Speaker 3: someone that has achieved so much in their career.

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Speaker 1: My mum always said I was blessed with low ambition

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Speaker 1: or no ambition, and I know what she means, and

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Speaker 1: I reckon it's and you know, you think about the

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Speaker 1: youth today and everyone has to be the next dot

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Speaker 1: com entrepreneur and look great in bathers and all that

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff, and I think, fucking hell, the level

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Speaker 1: of expectation on people is so hi. I always just

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Speaker 1: try to bring it right down and just be happy.

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Speaker 1: Just be happy being gainfully employed and you know, turning

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Speaker 1: up to work each day and having a nice family

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Speaker 1: or whatever.

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Speaker 3: I love that. And so does that still come naturally

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Speaker 3: for you? That kind of like just low expectations.

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Speaker 1: I'm very very practiced at it, including.

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Speaker 2: My performs on a podcast.

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Speaker 1: You know, no matter what happens here, I'll be pleasantly

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Speaker 1: surprised with how well it went.

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Speaker 3: And so therefore, because you've got low expectations, do you

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Speaker 3: get nervous before things?

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Not really, no, because so long as you just kind

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Speaker 3: of open up your mouth and words come out, it'll

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Speaker 3: be up.

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Speaker 2: That's right, I've filled up another twenty minutes, and no,

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Speaker 2: this is bad. I'm sucking the energy out of the room.

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Speaker 3: That's great. So then, like now, because you seem very confident,

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Speaker 3: you seem like when you say stuff, you say it

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Speaker 3: with conviction and you know what you're talking about, do

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Speaker 3: you feel that way inside?

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Speaker 2: I'm very very.

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Speaker 1: Quick to say I don't know, So I'll always say

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Speaker 1: I don't know, and then I think people get relieved.

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Speaker 2: But I do think that. So there's a counter to that.

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Speaker 2: Whereas if you are in charge of.

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Speaker 1: If people are paying you to have an opinion on

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Speaker 1: something and you say you don't know, you can see

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Speaker 1: their shoulders slump a little bit, because sometimes people need

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Speaker 1: somebody in the room to know. And so there is

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Speaker 1: that there is a duality there that I do find

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Speaker 1: myself observing sometimes thinking, gosh, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: They want me to know. What should I do?

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Speaker 3: And what do you do?

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Speaker 2: It's a very specific question.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I would a certain pin strongly, and sometimes I

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Speaker 1: would say I don't know.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting because you're I guess you're known for being

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Speaker 3: quite contrarian and expressing views that go against the grain. Yes,

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Speaker 3: and I imagine with that you'd probably like piss a

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Speaker 3: lot of people off. Is that fair to say? Or

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Speaker 3: make people quite uncomfortable?

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Speaker 1: I think more, I think, hopefully more of a latter

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Speaker 1: like I think I make you made. But and again

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Speaker 1: I reckon that just comes from a learning style where

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Speaker 1: I've always been slightly adversarial in how I learn, and

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Speaker 1: so if somebody says something, I always have a actions

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Speaker 1: to it and want to try.

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Speaker 2: To find the opposite thing.

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Speaker 1: But I think that's also quite common in all of us,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's really common in rational debate, and

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Speaker 1: I think that's one of the reasons why rational persuasion

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Speaker 1: works so badly in communications and.

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Speaker 2: Needed to appeal to people's emotions as.

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Speaker 1: Soon as it's because it's just I don't know if

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Speaker 1: it's human nature or Adam's nature, but as soon as

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Speaker 1: the fact is put in front of me, I'll try

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Speaker 1: to find a counter to that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it really took me through that thought process, like

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Speaker 3: how are you getting to the counterview? Because I think

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Speaker 3: that that there's like the less common thing to do.

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Speaker 1: If I find myself jumping into the counterview, then I'll

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Speaker 1: try to if I remember, check myself and I'm not

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Speaker 1: just doing it for the sake of doing it, and

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Speaker 1: then if I'm not, I will I'll search. I don't

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Speaker 1: know how what would I do. I would search for

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Speaker 1: evidence to support and I'll tear it an alternative, and

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Speaker 1: then I would hold onto that belief tightly, but.

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Speaker 2: Then let it go absolutely if I need to, So

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Speaker 2: I forget what that.

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Speaker 1: There's a quote abound holding opinions tightly but then letting

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Speaker 1: them go, and that's kind I kind of relate to that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I heard a quote last week, actually, I think

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Speaker 3: it was from Dan Pink that said, what was it

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Speaker 3: argue like you're right and listen like you're wrong.

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Speaker 2: I like that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's kind of what you're saying.

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Speaker 2: Thank you Dan.

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Speaker 3: And is that kind of what you do then? Like,

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Speaker 3: are you aware of yourself in like a meeting or

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Speaker 3: a conversation speaking with conviction but then listening to be

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Speaker 3: proven wrong?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I think I've got people who know me would be

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Speaker 1: would laugh when I say I reckon.

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Speaker 2: I've got pretty good self awareness. I'll just say you don't.

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Speaker 1: But I think, but I think I do, so I

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Speaker 1: think in those situations I can, but maybe I'm kidding myself.

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Speaker 1: But then it comes back to I believe it.

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Speaker 3: So how do you do that? Like, how do you

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Speaker 3: practically do that where you've got a strong opinion but

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Speaker 3: then you're trying to listen in a way that's kind

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Speaker 3: of playing Devil's advocate against your opinion. Are you aware

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Speaker 3: of like just the mental processes that are going on.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I think that's a really nice, interesting insight.

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Speaker 1: I've really struggle to unpack that further in terms of

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Speaker 1: practically how that happens.

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Speaker 3: I want to talk more, I guess, like about psychology

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Speaker 3: because you are a psychologist to train psychologist, your thesis

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Speaker 3: was around how to make something.

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Speaker 1: Cool, identifying the underlying constructs of cool people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there you go. Okay, what a fascinating topic. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: far better than my thesis. What was your topic? Mind was?

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Speaker 3: Broadly speaking, I say it was about persuasion, but specifically speaking,

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Speaker 3: it was in the graduate recruitment context, how could recruiters

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Speaker 3: make an organization more appealing to a job applicant?

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Speaker 2: Persuasion is much better.

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Speaker 3: I'm curious as to how you apply principles of psychology

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Speaker 3: to your own life to better yourself. And that's a

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Speaker 3: really broad questions, so I'm happy for you to take

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Speaker 3: that wherever you want.

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Speaker 2: I believe in CBT, so cong behavior therapy.

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Speaker 1: I practice in an anxiety disorders clinic for some years.

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Speaker 3: I'm can you just unpack what CBT is for people

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Speaker 3: that are not psychologists?

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Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I haven't spoken about that for years.

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Speaker 1: So basically, how you think and how you act ends

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Speaker 1: up having a big determine on how you feel about

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Speaker 1: the world. And so if you can control your thoughts

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Speaker 1: and you can control your behaviors, and you can control

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Speaker 1: your feelings, your thoughts, feelings and actions are all tightly aligned.

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Speaker 1: And so if you can control two of those, then

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Speaker 1: you've got a good chance of controlling how you feel.

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Speaker 2: And so.

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Speaker 1: With the what I learned a lot in that is

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Speaker 1: about looking for conco errors or for when you are

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Speaker 1: saying stuff that's either an absolute or you've been fatalistic

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Speaker 1: or overly negative, just just picking up on that and

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Speaker 1: just being really.

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Speaker 2: Aware that those thoughts will have a cumulative on how

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Speaker 2: you feel about something.

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Speaker 1: So I think, you know, getting indoctrinated into that or

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Speaker 1: getting programmed I think into that during my career and

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Speaker 1: then practicing on others, also programming myself by kind of

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Speaker 1: telling other people that.

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Speaker 2: So I learned a fair bit about that.

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Speaker 1: And with the behavior stuff, you know, I've maintained a

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Speaker 1: very very steady fitness schedule my entire life, so I've

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Speaker 1: always maintained a very very high level of fitness and

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Speaker 1: personal I'm joking now.

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Speaker 2: As a joke.

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Speaker 3: Good visual jokes work well on podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Maybe maybe you can describe why the joke's funny.

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Speaker 3: Intro tak me more like about the CBT and how

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Speaker 3: how you use that, Like, what are for example, thinking

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Speaker 3: patterns that you began to identify in your own life,

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Speaker 3: whether that be early on or more recently, and and

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Speaker 3: how you went about deliberate changing those thoughts.

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Speaker 1: I used to work with a business partner called Mike Wilson,

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Speaker 1: and he said to me, never react to the small stuff.

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Speaker 1: Nothing really matters. It's all the big stuff. And then

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Speaker 1: Daniel Kaineman, psychologist who won the Nobel Prims for Behavior economics,

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Speaker 1: said nothing's as big as you think it is, especially

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Speaker 1: when you're thinking about it. And there's lots and lots

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Speaker 1: of kind of proof points around.

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Speaker 2: Just that we tend to blow shit.

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Speaker 1: Up, and we tend to magnify things that aren't that important.

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Speaker 1: And so if I do find myself doing that, like

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Speaker 1: I used to get worried a little bit about what

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Speaker 1: I said in the media and thinking, oh shit, people

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Speaker 1: are reacting negatively to that, and that used to worry me.

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Speaker 1: And then I learned that there was no negative repercussions

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Speaker 1: at all in a real sense. If I said something

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Speaker 1: negative or stupid, you know, a few anonymous comments might

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Speaker 1: say I'm a dickhead or whatever, but then that would

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Speaker 1: go away. And so there was just always been a

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Speaker 1: lack of negative consequences over what I thought I'd said

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Speaker 1: or done was bad, and so therefore I learned not

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Speaker 1: to worry about those things.

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Speaker 3: So it was kind of like looking at the evidence

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Speaker 3: behind why your thoughts were flawed and then changing your

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Speaker 3: thoughts accordingly.

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Speaker 1: It was it was saying if I was magnifying something,

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Speaker 1: if I had said something stupid and thought, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: you said that stupid thing, the repercussions of that are

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Speaker 1: going to be bad, I would wait for the negative repercussions.

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Speaker 2: They wouldn't happen.

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Speaker 1: And so then I've learned not to worry so much

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Speaker 1: about saying saying stupid things in public or in media,

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Speaker 1: because because because because nobody is really that interested and

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Speaker 1: so so repercussions are never as big as you think

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Speaker 1: they're going to be.

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Speaker 3: All Right, I want to move on, and I want

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Speaker 3: to talk about brand, because brand and creating brands and

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Speaker 3: thinking about brand strategy has been a big part of

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Speaker 3: your life for the last many years. And I know

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Speaker 3: you think a lot about your personal brand, and I

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Speaker 3: want to know when when did you start seeing yourself

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Speaker 3: as a person as a brand that you had to

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Speaker 3: think strategically about.

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Speaker 2: I hear the.

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Speaker 1: Question, I won't reject the question because it does position

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Speaker 1: me as somewhat as an absolute dickhead.

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Speaker 2: I'm not, but I find it.

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Speaker 1: If you luck, if I met somebody who said who

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Speaker 1: said they considered their brand themselves as the brand, I

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Speaker 1: would not like that person.

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Speaker 3: I probably wouldn't either, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: However, I did just start to find it easier to

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Speaker 1: wear the same thing all the time, so you just

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Speaker 1: wear black jeans and a T shirt had the mutual

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Speaker 1: benefit of being slimming as well. And then I suddenly discovered,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you think about brands, and lots of

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Speaker 1: what brands need to do is make things easier for consumers.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of the main way they work. When not

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Speaker 1: necessarily motivated to buy one over the other, it's much

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Speaker 1: more about it.

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Speaker 2: If one's easy to buy, I has a.

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Speaker 1: Mental physical availability, We're much more likely to buy it.

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Speaker 1: So you think about it and it's there, you'll buy

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Speaker 1: that over another brand. And the easiest way to make

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Speaker 1: things easy to buy is have strong distinctive assets that

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Speaker 1: cue that.

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Speaker 2: Brand in the mind.

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Speaker 1: And then I realized, at some stage that's kind of

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Speaker 1: marketing sciences, and that's at one stage then I realized

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Speaker 1: that's what I've been doing by curating my own look

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Speaker 1: of having very strong brand distinctive assets, so wearing all black,

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Speaker 1: very disheveled look, long hair, black glasses, they're all distinctive

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Speaker 1: assets that make it easy for you to recognize me.

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Speaker 1: And then if I present in a similar way over

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Speaker 1: time all the time, then a brand is also just

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Speaker 1: a promise kept.

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Speaker 2: And so you'll come.

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Speaker 1: If you of Adam Ferry and not that many people have,

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Speaker 1: but like in my little world they have, or you know,

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Speaker 1: in my varyou small worlds some of them have.

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Speaker 2: Then if you keep that promise.

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Speaker 1: Of expectation, then people feel satisfied with that and so

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Speaker 1: they're therefore they're more likely to trust it. So it's

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Speaker 1: just having to deliver on that expectation. But I think

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Speaker 1: what I find interesting about that was your earlier point

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Speaker 1: about being adversarial or I forget what the word you use,

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Speaker 1: was contrarian. A client of mine a few years ago

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Speaker 1: said to me, you used to be much more contrariant

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Speaker 1: than you are, and it's disappointing because we need you

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Speaker 1: to play that role in our business. And I thought

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Speaker 1: that was really interesting because because then being contrarian does

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Speaker 1: take effort, and then and if that is, if that

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Speaker 1: is your role, then you know, if that's what people

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Speaker 1: want you to do, or that promise, that's what the

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Speaker 1: that's right, If that's where they see value, then you

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Speaker 1: should deliver on that.

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Speaker 2: Then.

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Speaker 1: A fun game we did play at my previous agency,

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Speaker 1: which I've kind of kept up, is trying to identify

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Speaker 1: everybody's brand positioning, and a good brand positioning reconciles the

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Speaker 1: fundamental trade off, so it reconciles two trade offs of

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Speaker 1: two benefits that go against each other that other brands

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Speaker 1: in the category can't necessarily reconcile. The example I learned

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Speaker 1: when I was right back in the day, it was

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Speaker 1: Pine Clean reconcile the trade off in the cleaning market

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Speaker 1: of either having to smell nice or work hard. It

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Speaker 1: worked hard because it smelled nice. So we always at

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Speaker 1: my last agency have played this fun parlor game. We

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Speaker 1: would give everybody a brand positioning by trying to identify

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Speaker 1: two opposing opposites and bringing them together to create a

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Speaker 1: strong brand. And mine was enigmatic irritation. So it was

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Speaker 1: kind of interesting but very irritating, as you're probably starting

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Speaker 1: to starting to.

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Speaker 3: Experience, and I remember when so one of the things

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Speaker 3: that you've done in the last year. Is you co

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Speaker 3: founded a conference. Is it called a conference gathering? I

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Speaker 3: don't know what is it? Festival conference slash festival called

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Speaker 3: space which I attended in May this year. And you

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Speaker 3: had a really fun exercise I think it was on

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Speaker 3: the first dinner of the conference where you kind of

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Speaker 3: gave people instructions on how to create what you've just

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Speaker 3: talked about. Can you talk people through, like, if people

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Speaker 3: want to do this for themselves, think about their own brand.

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Speaker 3: How do they do that?

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Speaker 1: Well, think of over AND's made up of opposite, So

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Speaker 1: think about a whole lot of This is not the

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Speaker 1: way to do brand position, but this is a fun

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Speaker 1: kind of way to identify your own little thing if

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Speaker 1: you want to that helps describe who you are. So

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Speaker 1: we just ask people to develop up a list of

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Speaker 1: adjectives that describe themselves. Try to find and a few

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Speaker 1: adjectives that have a bit of tension in them so

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Speaker 1: that they're not that they kind of work at the

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Speaker 1: opposite kind of way, and then bring those together to

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Speaker 1: create a singular thought that describes you. And that's that's

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Speaker 1: what we did.

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Speaker 2: And so.

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Speaker 1: You know, so everyone in the agency has got their

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Speaker 1: own couple of words that that that bring together two

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Speaker 1: thoughts in a kind of nice, nice way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like that. It's a fun exercise to do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a few times it is. It is hard.

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Speaker 1: Because then it just just trying to find Everyone tries

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Speaker 1: to avoid the negative, and if you're trying to work

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Speaker 1: it up for somebody else, it's hard to find the

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Speaker 1: right negative negative words without insulting people. A seventy three

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Speaker 1: percent of the words year is to describe personality or negative.

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Speaker 3: Seventy three percent of words used to describe personality and.

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Speaker 2: Negative according to Wikipedia.

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Speaker 1: Really according to negative negativity biases, there's a yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: a thing there.

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Speaker 3: Wow. I want to talk more about your own brand,

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Speaker 3: because you've sort of talked about like the physical assets

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Speaker 3: of your brand and being distinctive and recognizable and fulfilling

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Speaker 3: that promise, and you talked about being contrarian and how

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Speaker 3: I guess a client had expectations that that is what

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Speaker 3: you will deliver. Are there other things that you think

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Speaker 3: about in terms of your own personal brand that you

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Speaker 3: know you then think about, Okay, how am I going

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Speaker 3: to consistently deliver on that? Or have you been able

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Speaker 3: to evolve your brand over that time? You know that

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Speaker 3: you've been in advertising people.

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Speaker 1: Just for the record, I really don't consider myself in

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Speaker 1: this branded sense like it's a bit of or maybe

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Speaker 1: I do, but I don't like to admit it.

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Speaker 3: And it's because I think that's interesting, because you are

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Speaker 3: such like a distinctive brand in your industry. And I

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Speaker 3: can completely understand how awkward this is, but I just

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Speaker 3: too want to unpack it and go there.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, what else do I do to manufacture?

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Speaker 3: What else do you do? Or what else do you

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Speaker 3: think about?

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Speaker 1: I really like, I think the world is heading towards

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Speaker 1: a homogeneity.

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Speaker 2: At a really, really rapid rate.

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Speaker 1: And somebody once told me that if you took it

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Speaker 1: an Elizabethan person and put them on the streets today,

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Speaker 1: that person would be deemed to be crazy because that'd

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Speaker 1: be so emotional and so demonstrative. And we're all chipping

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Speaker 1: away at each other's emotions, and we're all really you

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Speaker 1: know people that stand up and applaud and go bravo, bravo,

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Speaker 1: or whatever they used to do back in the day

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Speaker 1: in a theater, you know, you get a polite round

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00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 1: of applause, and then that'd be kind of it. So

447
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 1: we're all chopping off each other's emotions by policing each

448
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,680
Speaker 1: other's behavior a lot. And I do kind of find

449
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,400
Speaker 1: myself naturally, you know, for all the reasons we've spoken

450
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,680
Speaker 1: about before, being able to add a bit of color

451
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 1: and movement within that world. And so I do like

452
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 1: to leave people thinking about something, I guess, And so

453
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 1: that's what I would say. Some of my value is

454
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,880
Speaker 1: in terms of trying to offer some freedom of thought.

455
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,920
Speaker 3: M So leave people thinking about something or.

456
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,399
Speaker 1: Fucking with things in some particular way, you know what

457
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 1: I mean, like just trying to fuck with the situation.

458
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:12,120
Speaker 2: In some way.

459
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,880
Speaker 3: What's an example of that, I did think I do.

460
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 1: That at my work or some of the ideas that

461
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,400
Speaker 1: my agencies have developed are kind of quite jarring kind

462
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:23,959
Speaker 1: of things that make people think.

463
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 2: In terms of.

464
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 1: My my family would say, I do it all the

465
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 1: time in a very encounter.

466
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 2: In a not a good way. But yeah, so I guess,

467
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:42,880
Speaker 2: I guess, and I guess.

468
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 1: Even doing something like creating space, I love the idea

469
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 1: of creating something that is a different model or a

470
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 1: new way of doing something. And I think, you know

471
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,919
Speaker 1: the fact that we can't quite describe what space is,

472
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 1: the fact that it had this kind of festival party

473
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 1: atmosphere for the whole thing, and there was no separation

474
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,879
Speaker 1: between speakers and delegates, and it was just, you know,

475
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:07,919
Speaker 1: I love the idea that was a new kind of

476
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 1: thing to put out into the world.

477
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 3: I was curious about the decision to commit to doing

478
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 3: something like Space. He had two co founders with Space,

479
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 3: and I imagine you lead a pretty full life, like

480
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 3: you're running an agency, you've got two young children, then

481
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 3: you decide to create this really huge like three days

482
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 3: was it three four day event?

483
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 2: Like?

484
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 3: How what's your decision making process on committing to something

485
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,199
Speaker 3: that big? What does that look like? Decision making in

486
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 3: your life.

487
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 1: It's always very I can make very very quick decisions

488
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 1: and it's always leans towards yes. So I'm very bad

489
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:47,880
Speaker 1: at saying no and I think, and I'm very bad

490
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: at rejecting opportunity. So I met CJ who's the co

491
00:24:54,640 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 1: founder of Space, and we spoke about wh to leave

492
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: where he was and we kind of spoke about doing

493
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: something in Australia together. And it never really felt like

494
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 1: it was never really a decision. It was like, oh, yeah,

495
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 1: that'd be really really cool, let's do it. It was

496
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 1: never how is it's going to fit in or what

497
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 1: has to be sacrificed in order to make that happen.

498
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: And I do think time is infinitely expandable. I think

499
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 1: you can fit as much in as you want. I

500
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,919
Speaker 1: don't think there's any barriers to time. It's like a

501
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 1: piano accordion. It kind of stretches infinitely, and the more

502
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,919
Speaker 1: the more you do, the more it tends to stretch.

503
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 1: And I explained that, and that's why I hate timesheets

504
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 1: and things like that, because I think it's just it's

505
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 1: not how time works. Like, if you drop an exciting,

506
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 1: interesting project into the agency.

507
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 2: People, no matter how busy.

508
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: The agency is, that project will get done really, really easily.

509
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 1: So if everything has been branded exciting or interesting, it'll

510
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,679
Speaker 1: be amazing at how much stuff can happen.

511
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really interesting. It kind of reminds me of

512
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 3: that old adage, you know, if you want something done,

513
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 3: ask a busy person.

514
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

515
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's an interesting view of time.

516
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really convenient because because you can just you

517
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 2: can just keep on packing stuff in there.

518
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 3: Does it get to a point though, where that viewpoint

519
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,120
Speaker 3: has been proven wrong to you?

520
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: Yes, it does at a at a personal level, it

521
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 1: often gets proven wrong.

522
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 2: What the kids need to be put to bed?

523
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, there are certain demands on your time somebody.

524
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 1: There's also a really interesting piece of research that said

525
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 1: all the best inventions and weld breaking ideas have always

526
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: been done by people in their thirties pre kids, because once,

527
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 1: once you have there's just becomes physically more more time.

528
00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 1: I can remember at UNI, whenever I.

529
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 2: Had a a partner, it.

530
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 1: Felt like it was taking on an extra subject because

531
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 1: it was another thing to put in the week that

532
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: you have to So I think that's interesting though, and

533
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 1: I think that's where the rubb hits aread is in

534
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: terms of really important relationships with people you love.

535
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,199
Speaker 3: So how then do you balance that? How do you

536
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 3: balance fatherhood? You've gotten almost two and a seven year old,

537
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 3: with agency world where the hours are so full on

538
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 3: how I remember it? How does that balance work for you?

539
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: I think it's I think the beauty about how we

540
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 1: work now is that there is no work life balance.

541
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 1: I don't think. I think it's all the one. If

542
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: you enjoy, if you're lucky enough to enjoy what you do,

543
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: it all becomes the one thing, and then you can

544
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 1: just do that all the time, so I don't find

545
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 1: myself having to go to work and then coming home.

546
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: I'll find myself sometimes the kids will come into the office.

547
00:27:55,040 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 2: Or sometimes I'll get home for or whatever is and

548
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 2: spend the afternoon with them and then work at night

549
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 2: or whatever it is. And so I feel like I

550
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 2: can just kind of.

551
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,959
Speaker 1: Muddy along by keeping the lines, keeping it all kind

552
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: of fluid.

553
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 2: Having said all of that, that's.

554
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:17,439
Speaker 1: A luxurious position to be in. And I've got the

555
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: support of my wife who's stayed at home at the

556
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: moment with looking after the two year old, and so

557
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: that's allowing me an incredible amount of freedom.

558
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 3: I'm curious about creativity, because a large part of your

559
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 3: role involves being creative. What are the things that you

560
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 3: deliberately do in your life to promote creative thought?

561
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: Things like definitely, things like space where we're actually and

562
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: I've got another conference called Marketing Science's Ideas Exchange, where

563
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: we're creating the environment to allow ideas to happen. I

564
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: think is really important. And then the other thing is

565
00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: I do get off on just promoting free thinking in

566
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: the media or wherever it might be.

567
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 3: But what do you mean by that.

568
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't mind.

569
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: I like to be evangelical about creativity and about ideas.

570
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 2: Across any kind of platform.

571
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: I gap because I think I really believe in them

572
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: to create a more interesting, richer life for all of us.

573
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: So if I get a platform on all of evangelicized

574
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: about them.

575
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 3: Okay, So what do you do when you're experiencing writer's block?

576
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 3: Metaphorically speaking, I find the.

577
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 1: Best ideas come when you're not thinking about them, so

578
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: always has try to take the brief in, understand the problem,

579
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: spend a fair bit of time understanding the problem without

580
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: trying to come up with a solution.

581
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 2: But I know that once the problem is in my head.

582
00:29:55,120 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: A solution might come, and then so spending time I'm

583
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: taking the problem in seriously.

584
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 3: And how do you do that? Like, what's your process

585
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 3: for really understanding a.

586
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: Problem, reading the information, getting the information? I'm just trying

587
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: to think of Yesterday I took a brief and I

588
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: just read the briefing notes really, really well, and then

589
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: thought where else couldn't answer read the briefing notes really well?

590
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 1: Then thought where else could an answer lie? Make sure

591
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: I or my agency puts themselves in the position to

592
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: kind of go where that answer might lie, and then

593
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 1: hope I think, and then just hope in time that

594
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: that you'll cross pollinate with something else in your mind

595
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: and something will come up, like an idea will always

596
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 1: come up, but and you won't ever know if it's

597
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: the best idea, because there's always a whole bunch of

598
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: ideas that could happen. And I guess the measure of

599
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: long term success is how often those ideas are good

600
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: versus not.

601
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 3: Do you find then your unconscious brings those ideas to

602
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 3: the forefront of your mind, to your conscious mind at

603
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 3: certain times of day or during certain activities, like are

604
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 3: there things that you can do to I guess access that.

605
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: I think they happen or nearly always in the morning.

606
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: And I haven't discovered anything other than the shower.

607
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 2: I do find the shower is really good.

608
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: It's got no relevance too, but I do find the

609
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 1: shower really good to come up with ideas. I find

610
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: it and I know that it has been studied, hasn't it.

611
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 2: Do you know what it is about the shower?

612
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's because you're relaxed. And I think

613
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 3: in these times where you're relaxed and you're not consciously

614
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 3: thinking about anything. You're kind of on autopilot in the shower.

615
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 3: It's like it's the prime conditions for these things themselves.

616
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 2: You're right.

617
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: And maybe driving in the car as well is another

618
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: one I find quite useful, or even if being in

619
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: a taxi. But it's interesting, isn't it. Like I like

620
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 1: that thing about relaxed, because they don't. They never have

621
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: and whilst you're doing something else, so they don't happen

622
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: while they were responding to an email.

623
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 2: But at that moment, but at that moment beforehand.

624
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 1: So we did something interesting a few weeks ago for

625
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: Veggie Might, where the ashes were on and I was

626
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: just looking at my Google at this is contradictor though,

627
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: so I was looking at my Google, I was looking

628
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: at my email, looked at my Google alerts. On the

629
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: way to the airport, it was eight twelve in the morning,

630
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: and then it said that in England that mar Might

631
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: had been handing out jars and marmot to the crowd

632
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: to try to woo Australians over. And I saw that.

633
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: I thought that's shit. They shouldn't be doing that, and

634
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: then I just emailed Veggiemin Clank copied a few people

635
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: saying we should take and we should take an ad

636
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: out saying this is outrageous.

637
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 2: Australians will never like the taste of Vegiemi.

638
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: Because it's too insipid for our for our tastes, we're

639
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: like kind of stronger kind of tasting.

640
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 2: Stuff on our.

641
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: Toast and and so that and then you know, I

642
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 1: kind of just wrote that out quickly, and then he

643
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: replied back saying eight minutes later, that's fantastic, let's do that.

644
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 1: And you know, that night there was an ad in

645
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: the paper in the UK kind of declaring that Australians

646
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: will never like the taste of Marmarke because we like

647
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: the far strongest.

648
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 2: Use space spreads.

649
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: And that started off as a kind of vegie might

650
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: war with the marm war with Marmke.

651
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 2: And so that did come from the stimulus.

652
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: Was the email maybe read in a condition of having

653
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: no expectations or no, there's no problem to solve.

654
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 2: I have a lot of arguments with my partner at work.

655
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: He always calls himself a really good problem solver, and

656
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: I always say, well, what if it's not a problem

657
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: to solve, Like I'm not necessarily a good problem so

658
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: like if you give me up, but I'm good at

659
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: generating or quite good at generating ideas.

660
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like you're exposing yourself to a

661
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 3: lot of different stimulus. What are some of your go

662
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 3: to sources of inspiration, like whether they be websites, blogs, podcasts,

663
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 3: e newsletters? What are some of the things that you're

664
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 3: constantly consuming.

665
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: I have no good answer for that. Anything anything on

666
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: behavior economics I love, but just purely almost purely on

667
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 1: a LinkedIn feed or Twitter feed basis. So I find

668
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: if I follow the right people on LinkedIn and Twitter,

669
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 1: they'll do the curation for me and then I'll take

670
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: what they find interesting.

671
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 3: Anyone in particular that you follow keenly.

672
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 1: Rory Sutherland and his offside are Sam Tatum, who's another

673
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:59,280
Speaker 1: psychologist who is now in the UK, at Ogilvy, Daniel

674
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: Pink I do like mart Ritz and Byron Sharp and

675
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: the marketing Science type crew as well.

676
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 3: Something we were talking about before is like one of

677
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 3: your roles at thinker Bell is to kind of be

678
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 3: the marketing director for the thinker Bell brand as well

679
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 3: as working on your client's brands. And we were talking

680
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 3: about the book The Power of moments by the Heath

681
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 3: Brothers and just thinking about, like something that I think

682
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 3: about a lot of Invent Him is how can we manufacture,

683
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 3: you know, quite memorable moments for our clients and the

684
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 3: people that we engage with. And so an example of

685
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,399
Speaker 3: something that we did in Invent Him that started by

686
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 3: an era where very early on it was December and

687
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 3: I remember it got to the end of December and

688
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 3: I'm like, shit, I should be sitting Christmas gift to

689
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 3: the clients. And so that I'm like, okay, well December's gone,

690
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 3: that's not going to happen. So since then, since that era,

691
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 3: we've done this thing called Happy January where every January,

692
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 3: all our clients will receive quite a personalized gift, like

693
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 3: it might be a book that we think that they'll like,

694
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 3: with a handwritten note, you know, something else that's quirky.

695
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 3: And that's just been a tradition and we get a

696
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 3: lot of really great feedback around that. And I want

697
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 3: to know, what are some of the things that you've

698
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 3: created for think about that perhaps make you quite different

699
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 3: as a brand, as a company and for the experience

700
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 3: of those working in the agency or your clients.

701
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 2: Well, there's two there's two ways to approach that.

702
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 1: Number One, if any if other agencies are doing it,

703
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:24,720
Speaker 1: we will actively.

704
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 2: Not do it.

705
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 3: Like what's an example of that, ping.

706
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:28,919
Speaker 2: Pong, table.

707
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 1: Pool games, video games, those kind of things. We won't

708
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 1: do it because it was just and then or celebrating birthdays,

709
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 1: birthday cake, you know, they're all just homogenized rituals that

710
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: don't set you apart and just make you more. So

711
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 1: if whatever it is you're doing, if it's making you

712
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,879
Speaker 1: more and more like everybody else, then it's weakening your.

713
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 3: Brand, and so that's great.

714
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 2: Yeah.

715
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: So if you can take a ritual like a birthday

716
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: and think at first in a previous agent that we

717
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: have banned birthday cake, and so we'll.

718
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 2: Never have it.

719
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: It's hideous, it's awkward, everyone hates it. So what else

720
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: do we do to celebrate birthdays? But now I think

721
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 1: we've taken it fair. I'd say we're banned celebrating birthdays,

722
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: but I'm sure other people would put it better than that.

723
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,879
Speaker 1: But we'll celebrate the day of trying to think about

724
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: rather than their birthday.

725
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 2: There might be some acknowledgement, but I hope not, but just.

726
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: In terms of so we just try and not do

727
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 1: what other people do. But in terms of trying to

728
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: do what we what builds our own brand. Our brand

729
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 1: is measured magic, which is a shorthand way of saying

730
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: marketing sciences meets hardcore creativity and then measured magic guides

731
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 1: everything that we do. And so we have at the

732
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: beginning of a week, we have measured Mondays, which is

733
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: our all agency whip. At the end of a week,

734
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 1: on a Friday afternoon, we have Magic Hour, which is

735
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: where everyone kind of you has fun and does stuff.

736
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:03,760
Speaker 2: They kind of bookend the week.

737
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 1: We have a think or the Thinker bell think a

738
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: Bellion of the week where one person gets awarded a

739
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: bell and whenever they ring it, whatever they want done

740
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: for them.

741
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,839
Speaker 2: For that week. They people have to do it so.

742
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 1: They can ask for whatever they're So that's written a

743
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: nice weekly ritual. When you come into the agency, you

744
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 1: come in and then you're right down to the bowels

745
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: of the agency, right to the back of the agency,

746
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: and the reception is at the bar at the back

747
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: of the agency, so you have to come right into

748
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 1: the agency, which we like about kind of communicating transparency,

749
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: and then you pass there's two big rooms. We have

750
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: a BX room, which is for brand experiences, and then

751
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,360
Speaker 1: we have a c X room, which is for customer experience.

752
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: And we always say it's b X before c X.

753
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: So understand your brand and make sure your brand guides

754
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 1: your decisions more of an understanding your your consumer. So

755
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: we think that there's an interesting kind of tension there

756
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: that we like to communicate by the way the office

757
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: is laid out, and then we have bits of measured

758
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 1: magic kind of throughout the office as well, and there's

759
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 1: a whole lot as loads. We take it and we

760
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: love our logo, our logos Rare Dans a thinker with

761
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 1: tinker Bell's wings on it, and so yeah, we take

762
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: the construction of a brand really really seriously.

763
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 3: And how do you come up with those ideas? Like

764
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 3: are you sitting in a room writing out a list

765
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 3: of all the conventions of the industry, Like how does

766
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 3: this happen? How do you get to that point to.

767
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: Get to measure so that there's two to get to

768
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 1: the measured magic is we wanted a truth about the

769
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: business that also our customers wanted, and so the truth

770
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 1: of the business was it was a marketing science type

771
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: person meeting to creative type people try to wrap that

772
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: up in some interesting language, and that's where we've got

773
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 1: measured magic, and then that becomes the guiding force for everything.

774
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 1: And so just think is it measured magic or not?

775
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 2: We kind of know what that is.

776
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: And then on the other thing, it's kind of yet

777
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: it's almost doing an audit stop take of what everyone

778
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 1: else is doing, and wherever possible, trying to avoid doing

779
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 1: what others are doing.

780
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 2: And it is it is.

781
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: Quite deliberate, and everyone kind of puts puts me down

782
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 1: for saying the only reason you don't want to do

783
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: that is because everybody else.

784
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,439
Speaker 2: Does it, to which I'll say, yes, that's that's right.

785
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 3: So is that then like a key decision making criteria

786
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 3: then for the agency and the things that you do,

787
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 3: if other people would do it, you will actively not

788
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 3: do it.

789
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: I would say, that's more, I'd say them, I'd say,

790
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:34,839
Speaker 1: it's the opposite one.

791
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 2: It's more.

792
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: If it's measured magic, will do it. If it's not,

793
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 1: we won't. And that's kind of a guiding philosophy of

794
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: the of the brand. The other bit about not doing

795
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 1: what other people do, it's just an interesting the kind

796
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 1: of side thing.

797
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 2: I think it's not the drive.

798
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: You wouldn't want that to be your driving force of

799
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 1: not doing what other people are doing, you what you're

800
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: driving for. And actually, if a brand positioning ever says

801
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,399
Speaker 1: dare to be different or being different, I always look

802
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 1: to see are they actually saying what they stand for

803
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: or are they just saying what they're not standing for.

804
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 1: And if they're just saying what they're not standing for,

805
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 1: then I always think, gosh, you're in trouble because you

806
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: need to know what you're standing for. You can't just say.

807
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, what you're not very interesting. I reckon like, we've

808
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 3: got about ten minutes left, and I'd love to open

809
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 3: it up to you guys to kind of go like,

810
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 3: what do you wish I'd ask to Adam, what do

811
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 3: you want to know about how he works or how

812
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 3: he thinks about the world. So there's a question around

813
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 3: just delving more into putting brand before consumer, which kind

814
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,800
Speaker 3: of seems counterintuitive in today's world, particularly innovation, where everyone's

815
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 3: on about putting the customer first. So maybe can you

816
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 3: can you expand on that, Adam?

817
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, so b X before c X, I understand

818
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: the brand before you understand the consumer. There's so much

819
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 1: rhetoric at the moment about being customer obsessed and understanding

820
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: the consumer and human centered design and CX, and I

821
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 1: think so much of it is bullshit and taking people

822
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: away in the wrong direction because everyone's thinking, if I

823
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,399
Speaker 1: just meet the consumer's needs, my brand or business will

824
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,479
Speaker 1: be strong. But if you really meet the consumer's needs,

825
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: your brand probably wouldn't exist. They don't need your brand.

826
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: Nine times out of ten that don't need a fifth

827
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: energy company or a sixty first car brand.

828
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 2: We need very little.

829
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 1: So we kind of kid ourselves so we understand that

830
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 1: if you really understood the consumer, you stay out of

831
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,240
Speaker 1: our way. And that's not a very good business model.

832
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 1: And because there's so much data around now, because we

833
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: can measure so many bits around the customer journey, it

834
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 1: kind of feels like it's an empty ritual to get

835
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 1: all of its data. And then it's very very hard

836
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: to action upon unless you prioritize what your brand stands

837
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: for and put your brand and your brand meaning at

838
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 1: the heart of your business. And then if you do

839
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 1: that and really try to express your brand in all

840
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 1: those little moments, so those magical moments so you've spoke

841
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 1: about before, then that's the way to build the brand,

842
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 1: and so I understand the brand first and then understand

843
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:08,320
Speaker 1: how the brand can express itself across the customer journey

844
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 1: rather than understanding what is the right way to go

845
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: about doing it?

846
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 2: Or is that's the way I've learned.

847
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 1: And at the moment it feels like I understanding of

848
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 1: consumers going up, but I understanding if a brand is

849
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: going down.

850
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 2: And if you want to read.

851
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 1: More about this, there's a really good book coming out

852
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 1: in February which is all about this.

853
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,439
Speaker 3: Written by yourself. Yes, what's it called? What's called?

854
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 2: I don't know if I don't know if I want to,

855
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 2: I don't know.

856
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 3: I don't know if you want to promote it?

857
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 2: Well, no, no I do. I want to promote it, but

858
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm allowed to say what it is?

859
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 3: Really? Okay, all right, Well hits bookstores in February next year.

860
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 3: All right, and just google your name and I guess

861
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:56,479
Speaker 3: you'll find it or not. What a great promotion. Yeah,

862
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 3: very halfflease very Conterrrian. Okay, So the question was just

863
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 3: so we can have the audio. So you just talked

864
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 3: about creativity for you coming in places like the shower

865
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 3: and driving how about I guess, when you're trying to

866
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 3: manufacture that production of ideas in the form of a

867
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 3: brainstorm or an ideation session, where does that fit in

868
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 3: the process. And I guess also, how do you get

869
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 3: the most out of it, like when you do it

870
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 3: at think about.

871
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question.

872
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,280
Speaker 1: And I've always been fascinated by the construction of ideas,

873
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: So I'm in the privileged position where I almost don't

874
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 1: Some people have to come up with the idea to

875
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: meet a deadline, and I have to be the best

876
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:38,839
Speaker 1: it possibly can. So I've always been interested in how

877
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 1: you can construct an environment or a culture that generator

878
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 1: gets ideas on demand all the time. And there is

879
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 1: something to be said, I think for having two people

880
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,720
Speaker 1: thinking about things and talking through stuff and just working alone.

881
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 1: And I think there are also is something to be

882
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: said for kind of workshopping and manufacturing stuff. I think

883
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 1: the byproduct of workshop. I think workshops are much better

884
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: at getting can census and getting alignment on the problem

885
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:09,919
Speaker 1: than they are developing the solution. However, having said that,

886
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 1: just recently we worked with a big sporting code.

887
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:21,800
Speaker 2: And to try to understand the essence of a brand

888
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 2: and it was.

889
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 1: Just articulated perfectly in that workshop is a couple of

890
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: weeks ago, and that's what that's what we've run with,

891
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 1: and everyone's just because it came because the bonuses, you

892
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 1: get extra points if it comes up in a workshop,

893
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 1: because there's so many people around the idea when it

894
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 1: happened that everyone thinks that they created it. And so

895
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: I don't think they're quite as good, but it's they're

896
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 1: really good to do because when they do happen, the

897
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: idea comes to life much more easily.

898
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 3: So do you then try to reduce the number of

899
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 3: ideation sessions that happen at the agency perhaps compared to

900
00:45:58,960 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 3: other agencies.

901
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: I think we just have a really good mix, Like

902
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:05,839
Speaker 1: we'd have a mix of informal creation locking at two

903
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 1: or three people away for a while.

904
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 2: Having.

905
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 1: Lots of work shopping rooms like we do take we

906
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:15,240
Speaker 1: have a think or the think tank, which is that

907
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: that b x RAOM, but that that gets used a

908
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 1: lot for people between ten and twenty five people working

909
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 1: on problems. So I do I do believe it, but

910
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: I think I do think it's better for problem definition

911
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 1: and we'd spend more time upfront than we would kind

912
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 1: of coming up with ideas.

913
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 3: All right, So how do you balance being contrarian without

914
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 3: putting people offside or offending people? And it's funny that

915
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 3: question reminds me of feedback that I got from my

916
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 3: bots back when I was working at Leo's, where he said,

917
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 3: the problem with you amount that is that you would

918
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 3: prefer to be right rather than liked. And I'm like,

919
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 3: what's wrong with that? I didn't say that as a problem,

920
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 3: but apparently it's a problem when you're trying to build

921
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 3: client relationships.

922
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 2: And I was that todd.

923
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 3: It was todd, Yeah, But anyway, it did make me

924
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 3: reflect on how I was behaving in meetings. But it

925
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 3: kind of reminds me like it's I don't know, it's

926
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 3: a similar kind of thing I imagine to that question,

927
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 3: So how do you do that, Adam? And is that

928
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 3: something you think about?

929
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 1: It is something I think about, and I like, I

930
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 1: love that little anecdote of yours. I think, I know,

931
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 1: I think, I feel like I'm a good person and

932
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 1: I want to my intentions are not to hurt or

933
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: belittle or.

934
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 2: Be mean or rude to people. So that's one thing.

935
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: So that kind of says, all right, well, I'm just

936
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: trying to get to a solution here. And then the

937
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 1: other way I'll do that is by being shockingly rude

938
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 1: to people early on so that they know that it's

939
00:47:58,280 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: all in good humor.

940
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 2: Do you do you know what I mean? Like, I

941
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 2: kind of like I can. I can be shocked at Barlow.

942
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can, and I can be shockingly offensive, although

943
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 1: it is hard to do that.

944
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:15,760
Speaker 2: I don't know what to say.

945
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 1: I just try to get by, like, and I think,

946
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 1: and I think everyone else is just trying to get by,

947
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 1: and so yeah, I just think. You know, I'm just

948
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 1: trying to do what I can. I'm not trying to

949
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 1: hurt people. I'm just trying to get to the right solution.

950
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 1: Is more what's driving me, I think, rather than and

951
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 1: it's more about the idea or the thing we're discussing,

952
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: rather about than the person. Somebody did say to me

953
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 1: and I reckon, it's really good advice that she was

954
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 1: Mike Wilson Again, he said this is years ago. So

955
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 1: there's two types of planners in the world. Planners who

956
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 1: make everyone in the room feel smart and planning to

957
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 1: make everyone in the room feel dumb. And at the

958
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 1: moment you're the flag waving bearer for the latter and

959
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 1: that's not going to get you anywhere.

960
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 2: And I love that.

961
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 1: So I do think you need you need to have

962
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,320
Speaker 1: a level of respect, and you need to let other people.

963
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 1: You need to bring other people on the journey and

964
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,280
Speaker 1: make everyone feel like they've got.

965
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 2: A role in the solution.

966
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 3: That is great, and cause people don't know what a

967
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 3: planner is a strategy. Planner is the role in the

968
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 3: agency that thinks about strategy. That's great. But I also think,

969
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 3: just coming back to what you were saying around we

970
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 3: were talking about CBT, that are you even dwelling on

971
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 3: the fact if you have kind of put someone on? Yeah,

972
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 3: I am you are.

973
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 1: That's one of the things I would dwell on. And

974
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 1: I think, oh my god, I've just done that.

975
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 2: And then, and especially to people in the agency.

976
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: If I do it, then I'll feel very very bad

977
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 1: and I'll send an email or.

978
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,760
Speaker 2: I'll apologize or something. So there's lots of awkward moments

979
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 2: like that.

980
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 3: Yeah right, Okay, Well look it is just about on

981
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 3: eight point thirty, so I reckon. Can everyone join me

982
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,760
Speaker 3: in thanking Adam for sharing such wonderful insights. Thank you, Adam.

983
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 3: That was awesome, cool, and thank you everyone for braving

984
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 3: the weather and the jet lag and all that sort

985
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 3: of stuff for being here. It's been wonderful having you

986
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 3: and your reactions and questions and everything. So thank you

987
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 3: and have a great day, everybody.

988
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:25,720
Speaker 2: Thanks a lot, thanks for coming along.

989
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:28,839
Speaker 3: That is it for today's show. Thank you so much

990
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 3: for listening. I hope you enjoyed my chat with Adam

991
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 3: and provoked a few things and maybe has you thinking

992
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 3: a little bit more about what it is that you

993
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 3: stand for in the world. Certainly got me thinking a

994
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 3: little bit more about my own brand too. So if

995
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 3: you enjoyed today's show, why not share it with someone else,

996
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 3: someone else who you think would find this stuff interesting

997
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 3: and valuable. All you have to do is click on

998
00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 3: the episode on your phone and there will be a

999
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 3: little icon that will allow you to share this episode

1000
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 3: with someone else. And thank you for those that have

1001
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 3: been spreading the word about how I work. I'm super

1002
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:13,240
Speaker 3: appreciative for what you're doing. So that's it for today

1003
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 3: and I will see you next time.