WEBVTT - 02: Wrong Decision 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:06.480 This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:11.840 urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline on 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:19.040 thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:29.440 lifeline dot org dot au. A twenty four year old 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:35.960 devoted mother of two fleeing a violent relationship as a 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:45.280 bags pack car running her daughters strapped into the backseat. 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:49.120 Mom told me that she needed to go back inside 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:49.920 to grab something. 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:50.720 Panic. 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:53.320 I Amy is dead, Sir aim his dead? 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:56.160 Eight Confusion World about five minutes, say sit not to 0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:57.920 suicide one hundred percent. 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:03.480 This is emersing. What do you think is really the 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:09.840 honest truth about Amy? The Truth About Amy? 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:15.959 Episode two. 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:22.479 I'm Liam Bartlett and. 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:27.559 I'm Alison Sandy. 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:30.640 At the next intersection, turn left. 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:36.720 It's a sunny still day as we head to Serpentine 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:39.839 on the way to the house where Amy Wensley died. 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:41.319 Turnal left. 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:45.760 It rained the day before, so there's a heavy smell 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:51.000 of petrocore, a unique earthy scent mixed with the rich 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:59.040 eucalyptus so abundant in Australian flora. This area is alive 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.880 with wildlife and despite the rain, the landscape is still 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:08.000 dry dotted with autumn colored trees, green, yellow, and a 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:15.560 rusty red. The semi rural estate owned by Robert Simmons, 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:20.480 comprises more than two hundred thousand square meetings or about 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:24.799 twenty hectares, and there's a long driveway heading up to 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:31.200 the impressive pale yellow weatherboard, six bedroom, three bathroom, two 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:37.680 story home. There's a dam, a riding arena for horses, 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.480 and of course, a large industrial shed just next door 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:46.480 to the prefabricated house where Amy lived with her daughters 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:52.920 and David Simmons back in twenty fourteen. It's only about 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:56.400 the size of a two bedroom unit, and Mark, a 0:02:56.520 --> 0:03:01.160 kind octogenarian who now lives there, agrees to take us 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:04.680 on a quick tour. This is beautiful, he tells Allison 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:08.760 how much he loves the location, especially being so close 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:10.200 to the rest of his family. 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:13.520 Yeah, it's a lovely little spot though, like it looks good. 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:16.400 When you walk in the back door, there's a toilet 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:19.760 on the right and a bathroom to the left. Straight 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:22.840 ahead is the kitchen, which opens out to the dining 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:26.800 and living room. After the bathroom is a small hallway 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:30.360 leading to two bedrooms, with the master bedroom on the right. 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:35.400 It's now Mark's bedroom and set out very similarly to 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:39.360 how it looked when Amy was there, a queen size 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:42.880 bed taking up most of the space, with a bedside 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:47.600 table either side, a window to the right upon entry, 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:50.400 and in front of the bed is a large built 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:55.640 in wardrobe with mirror doors. Next to the wardrobe behind 0:03:55.640 --> 0:04:00.560 the door is where Amy's body was found. Allison is 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:03.920 surprised at how tiny the area is. 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:06.680 Is very tight and I imagine the bed would have 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:15.640 been very similar sort of way, because she was that's right, yeah, yeah, guns, 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:16.720 oh yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:19.520 Four tens only a small book. The closure range is 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:20.200 blood illegal. 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:25.520 Mark shows Alice and the large shed next door, where 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:28.599 a lot of his belongings are held, including books and 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:31.640 old records. He jokes about having spent a fair bit 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:35.320 of time there, especially when his late wife got annoyed 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:35.839 with him. 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:38.720 Too used to tell them clear off to. 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:50.760 The big spider up there, just sort of yeah, and 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:52.240 how long ago did your wife die? 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:54.200 About three months ago? 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:58.960 Now. 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:03.080 Mark says he met David Simmons once became mere one. 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:07.960 Hole. 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:13.960 We ate and he keep saying me back tires, back 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:16.760 to I said no, I said, I'll see it's not 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:19.800 go And in the end Jesse. 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:21.680 Was with me. Mark is referring to one of his 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.200 grandsons who also lives on the estate. 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:27.560 All he was trying to do was coveras in gravel. 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:31.000 He hit the frog and spun it around and gravel 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:34.320 went everywhere. But I said, there's another hells up the 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:35.680 top of you now, he said, I know he used 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:39.080 to have in Libya, so that was him. I've had 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:42.599 some really strange people coming here, really have. And apparently 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:48.159 the superintendent that came here to investigate in apparently wanted 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:49.520 to go on Holy so he didn't want to know 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:53.600 about Heim, so he just put it down as his suicide. Yeah, 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:55.919 didn't need an investigating but they reckoned the angle. 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:56.680 She was shot out. 0:05:57.200 --> 0:05:58.440 She couldn't have done it herself. 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:02.279 The estake was sold in twenty sixteen for one point 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:14.400 seven million dollars. There were two police investigations into Amy's 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:19.800 death prior to the inquest in twenty twenty one. One 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:23.080 was an investigation by the Major Crime Squad in twenty 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:28.200 fourteen and the other by the Cold Case Homicide Squad 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:35.440 in twenty eighteen. In its investigation, Major Crime quickly concluded 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:42.000 there was no criminality identified and no evidence to identify 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:47.960 the involvement of another person. The investigation by Cold Case, 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:53.440 called Operation Mix, was more thorough and involved interviews with 0:06:53.800 --> 0:07:03.200 sixty two people, of which thirty seven witness statements were obtained. Now, 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:07.280 between the statements given to Major Crime Cold Case and 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:11.280 the witnesses that testified at the inquest, there were a 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:16.760 lot of discrepancies, some minor, some major, which we will 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:22.360 discuss in more detail throughout this podcast, but none of them, 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:26.520 not one of them, were considered important by officers assigned 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:32.040 to review the case. In its final report, Cold Case 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:40.080 attributes inconsistencies from Price and Simmons to trauma, alcohol consumption 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:48.920 or both. They also concluded there was quote insufficient evidence 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:54.920 to substantiate the involvement of another person in Amy's death. 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:02.600 Their attitude is certainly at odds with that of the 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:08.520 uniformed officers who were first on the scene. One of 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:12.960 those officers, although no longer in the police force, was 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:17.400 Larry Blandford. Larry tells me he'll never forget when he 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:22.640 first saw Amy's body. Obviously, when this goes to air, 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:27.040 it'll be ten years. Ten years is a long time. 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:31.040 Do you feel any differently today than you did ten 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:31.600 years ago. 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:35.560 I made a pledge to Aimy on that fatal night, 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:40.439 I said the words out loud to her, I'm sorry 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:43.080 for what's happened to you, Sis. We will get to 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:43.800 the bottom of it. 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:45.440 You said that to her in the bedroom. 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:47.600 I said that to her in the bedroom, and I 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:52.560 felt a little bit guilty by leaving the room and 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:53.480 not being with her. 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:56.679 Why did you say that? Why did you feel compelled 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:57.240 to say that? 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:04.959 Because because the evidence I gained from that room, it 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:08.959 was obvious to me that she didn't shoot herself. So 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:11.319 someone's got to be accountable for that action. 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:14.360 It's almost a fatherly thing to say, isn't it. 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:20.240 Yeah, I probably is. Yeah. I was sixty at that time, 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:23.559 so you know, I wasn't a young cop. I got 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:27.280 in it fifty four, and at this time I was 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:31.080 about sixty, and I had a lot of life experience 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:33.680 and done a lot of things abattoir and all the 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:34.679 other stuff that I've done. 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:35.600 Seen a few things. 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:38.679 Yeah, been on my own affair bit as well, And 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:41.240 you know I have to. When you're on your own, 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:43.199 you have to be accurate. You have to be accurate, 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:48.120 and everything you do you're driving your vehicle, maintenance, your level, 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:52.120 a few extra batteries because you're miles from anywhere. 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:52.880 So detail is important. 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:54.079 Detail is important. 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:57.520 Yes, What was your rank and position on the day 0:09:58.000 --> 0:09:58.680 Amy died? 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:04.679 I was first class Constable, soon to be Senior Connie. 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:09.880 And are those events still fresh and clear in your mind? Larry? 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:10.680 Is that fair to say? 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:14.520 Yeah? It was just like like I've been through it 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:19.480 that many times in my head. I sort of think 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.720 about it a fair bit, and it's just like it 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:28.280 happened yesterday, which to me is pretty sad because I 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:31.560 haven't been able to move on now. I was speaking 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:38.120 to a Constable Dixon about two years ago, and she says, 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:41.600 I think you need help, you need counseling, And I 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:44.360 said to her, No, I don't. I know what I'm thinking. 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:45.600 I know what I'm talking about. 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:49.360 Constable Dixon was one of the other uniformed officers, and 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:51.720 there was also Constable Roberts. 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:56.200 Yeah, it was Senior Connie Ian Roberts. Yeah, good Blake, 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:56.960 good operator. 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:01.000 Where were you and how were you told to attend 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:01.480 that event? 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:05.520 It was start of the shift, so we were in 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:11.560 the office. Obviously, we were on CAD the Tartess Information Service. 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:15.800 Who who knows our PD numbers, radio numbers and our 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:20.040 mobile phone AI police issued mobile phone? 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:21.920 So how does this work? All three of you asked 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:22.760 to attend? Were they? 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:26.240 Well, we were three up. One of us may stay 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:28.640 behind to do a bit of paperwork while they catch up. 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:30.160 The other two will go out and do a job 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:32.800 if there's a job. But at this time it seemed 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:35.840 it was urgent, so all three of us jumped in 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:36.280 the car. 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:38.760 And how did that call come in? What was the 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:41.679 nature of it? Did you get a notification of a 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:42.640 shooting or it. 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:46.880 Comes in by radio? Juliet one O one, we require 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:50.559 you to attend an address in Serpentine would have been that. 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:53.760 And then when you jump into the car, we checked 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:56.440 the Tartness and that gives you the job. What's actually 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:58.080 happened at that time and a location? 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:00.360 And what was the detail at that story? Which can 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:01.400 you remember? 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:06.240 Yeah, a woman has been shot with a shotgun. That 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:07.440 was virtually all it was. 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:10.680 Larry, can you take us through what happened when you 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:12.559 got there, the moment you got there. 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:15.920 The moment we pulled up at the driveway. Gareth Price 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:21.240 was sitting on the fence, rail and a bloke I 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:25.640 now known to be Robert Simmons was standing by the gate. 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:28.720 David Simmons father, Yeah, Robert Simmons, Yeah, did you know 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:29.439 Gareth Price? 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:32.400 Yes. I've had dealings with Gareth before. He's always to me, 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:36.000 he's always been a pretty nice sort of bloke. I've 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:38.920 never had any trouble with him, even though that i've 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:43.160 I had arrested him in the past. And I actually 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:46.360 met him with his friend somewhere and I said the 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:49.600 words Gareth Edward told Price, and his mates all laughed 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:53.160 because I knew his name. 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:54.240 Yeah. 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.840 So we're at the gate and I said what's going on? 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:00.360 And Robert Simmons says there's been a shooting. Gareth would 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.120 be the best person to talk to. So I said, Gareth, 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:03.679 what's going on? 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:03.960 Mate? 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:07.920 And he said, ah, my friend's partner is up in 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:12.559 the house and she committed suicide. And at that time 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:15.640 I thought, well, have you been schooled to say that, 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:20.560 because you know you're illiterate. It's a big word. So 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:26.360 it's my partner has committed suicide. If he was in school, 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:28.240 he just would have said my partner's been shot. 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:30.680 So that immediately sprang to your mind. 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:33.600 Sprang to my mind that there's better be on me 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:34.880 toes here, you know, And. 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:37.959 Because you knew him previously, and he knew his level 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:39.240 of intellect. 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:43.320 Yeah, when I interviewed he months before, his mother was 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:47.280 there as the interpreter because he couldn't read, or he 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:50.600 doesn't know how to read, which is it's not a fault. 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:54.520 But and she was also there too as his interview friend. 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:58.760 And that's why that word suicide sort of stuck out 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:01.480 for you. Then what happened. 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:04.840 I said to the fellas, say, at the gate, we're 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:07.200 going up. So I and Pep and I went up 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.280 the top Ian went into the shed and I went 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:13.400 into the house. I think Pep came in too. And 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:16.280 I didn't really want to Pep to see what I saw, 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:18.960 but I says, oh, you don't have to stay in here. Anyway, 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:22.560 she did her a little bit for the investigation. 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:24.720 You didn't know at the stage when you went through 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:26.640 that front door. I mean it was a tiny house, 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:29.760 but you didn't know which room Amy was in. 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:32.360 No, I didn't have a clue. You go from the 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:35.520 back verandah into the kitchen, and there's a hallway off 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:38.360 to the left and there's a bathroom to your right, 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:40.800 and after that is a bedroom. 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:42.400 And how did you discover her? 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:49.760 That's probably the first door I pushed open, and there 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:54.520 was something obstructing the door, as all evidence shows that 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:59.160 her leg was pushing against the door. I looked around 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:03.000 the corner and came into the room, and I sort 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:08.520 of I wasn't shocked, but I was sort of alert 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:11.720 to the fact that this is this is not right. 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:15.640 I saw a blue towel over her head, and I 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:18.200 never looked under that towel. And then there was a 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:21.800 firearm about a meter away and four to ten shotgun, 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:23.440 double barrel, side by side. 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:26.080 The gun was about a meter away on the floor. 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:29.360 On the floor, yep. So you had squeezed through the 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:33.120 door because her leg, one of her legs, was obstructing 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:33.520 the door. 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.520 Yeah, as I pushed through like a bit of a 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:40.520 bull because I didn't know this person needed medical help 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:40.720 or what. 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:42.720 And you didn't know what the obstruction was. 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:45.200 No, So when I got into the room and sort 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:47.400 of that out and it came in as well. 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:49.960 So effectively she was behind the door, sort of wedged 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:50.640 behind the door. 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:54.280 Yeah. Well, there's a wardrobe in the room. There's a 0:15:54.280 --> 0:16:00.160 wardrobe to the right. The door opens into a recess. Yes, 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:04.240 so it doesn't hit the wardrobe door. And in that recess, 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:07.920 once the door is closed, there is a quite a 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:11.240 substantial little recess there and that's where she was laying. 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:14.800 You say she had a blue towel on her head, Larry, 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:20.120 covering her face? Yep, her head. How did the blue 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:22.280 towel get put on her head? 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:27.080 What I learned later is that Gareth Price put the 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:27.920 towel on her head. 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:31.960 He put the towel on her head. Yes, Why did 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:32.360 he do that? 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:38.040 Oh? I would say out of respect. You know, he's 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:42.720 not a disrespectful person and it would have been a 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:43.360 shock to him. 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:47.240 Pausing here before speaking to Larry, we caught up with 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:49.840 Gareth Price at his home, which you'll hear in a 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:53.440 later episode. In that interview and all the others he's 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:57.760 given since Amy's death, Price has never deviated from his 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:01.080 description of the position of the gun when he first 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:02.400 walked into the bedroom. 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:07.359 He's told us that when he discovered her, the gun 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:13.640 was on her lap, Yes, and sort of down her legs, 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:17.400 so to speak. Did he remove the gun and put 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:18.159 it on the floor. 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:21.760 Yeah, he did make admissions that he removed the firearm 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:25.200 from her lap and put it about a meter away. 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:28.760 So that's the time I saw it at that location, 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:29.800 at that position. 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:31.440 Why would you touch the gun? 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:37.720 Not sure, mate. There's a few things that you shouldn't do, 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:46.800 and that's probably one of them. It's it's a situation 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:52.080 that has to be has to be believed at the time, 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:57.920 you know, because there's no cover up from the attending 0:17:57.960 --> 0:17:59.600 police officers. You know. 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:06.000 David Simmons father Robert, has also given evidence that he 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:12.439 unloaded that gun. So he's picked the gun up and 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:17.199 unloaded the spent cartridge, put it on a bedside table. 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:20.760 Why would you do that? 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:23.280 That's another question. I haven't got a crystal ball. I 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:26.280 can't answer that. But there was a live cartridge and 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:32.040 a spent cartridge on the bedside table, which was probably 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:36.400 about three three and a half meters from aim. 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:39.600 Now, as a police officer, did those actions strike you 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:40.200 as strange? 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:41.320 Oh for sure. 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:41.960 Yeah. 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:45.119 At that time I just saw a mouth yep, I know. 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:47.320 I went over and had a look, and I spent 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:49.040 a few bit of time in the room looking in 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:53.800 the cupboard, looking at all unsecured ammunition and rifles and 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:57.560 bits and pieces laying around, so you know, I formed 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:03.280 an opinion that it's it was it suicide. And as 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:07.600 I looked at Amy, there was blood spatter on the 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:11.320 walls and it was probably about as high as a chair, 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:17.119 the first big blood spatter, and I thought, well, that 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:20.720 would mean that she's been pegged on the way down. 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:27.240 She was sitting on her right hand and she was 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:33.480 right handed, so if she's going down, forced to go down, 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:36.560 she'd use her right hand to push against the wall 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:40.399 to go to the ground. And then she had gun 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:43.280 residue on her fingers as well on a left hand, 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:44.919 so she's pushing the barrel away. 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:48.240 So the gun residue on her left hand to you, 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:50.840 indicated that she was using her left hand to try 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:52.320 to push the muzzle away. 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:57.320 Yeah, I'm saying the gun residue on hand, I didn't 0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:00.760 know until forensics sorted that bit out after the fact. 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:03.600 That was after the fact. But the fact is at 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:07.560 that time her hand, her left hand was on her 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:10.040 lap and her league was out. Her left league was out, 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:13.040 so that was the only hand she had to defend 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:17.240 herself with. And I wasn't surprised that it had gone 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:18.359 residie on that hand. 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:23.360 But in those moments with you looking around the room 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:28.320 and taking all that detail in, as you said, detail 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:32.560 is so important, you formed the definite view. Did you 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:36.600 that it was not suicide? 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:45.879 Yeah? I was convinced by my experiences that it wasn't suicide, 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:51.919 and this was confirmed as I gained other information at 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:52.800 later times. 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:55.720 We're all three of you in agreement at that time. 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:59.640 Did you all think that there were suspicious enough signs 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:03.159 that you needed the detectives and that it was a 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:04.320 crime scene? 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:08.240 We congregated, the three of us congregated sort of every 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:10.200 ten minutes or so. How'd you go? What did you find? 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:13.200 I got this? I got that, and Pip went back 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:15.439 to the car to check for more firearms because I 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:18.359 had a bundle of firearms. Was about four I had 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:21.720 and there was five registered for the for the residents 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:27.520 of the property. And as we got together, I said, 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:31.440 this is suspicious. This is just not a suicide. So 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:33.680 I conferred with him. So that's why he in called 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:35.560 for the crime car. We need a car, We need 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:38.000 someone here to do this, We need help. 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:40.080 But both your colleagues agreed with you. 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:43.280 Yes, oh, yeah, one hundred percent, And to this day. 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:47.439 So there was complete consensus, yes, from three uniform police 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:49.240 officers exactly exactly. 0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:52.520 Forensically, it wasn't good because there had been three people 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:55.440 that had handled that firearm. I didn't at the time 0:21:55.480 --> 0:21:58.720 that Robert Sipons had handled it and unloaded it, Gareth 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:01.760 Price had moved it, and the perpetrator used it. So 0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:05.080 there's three people touch that fire up. So from then 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:08.320 on we had to be really vigilant, let no one 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:11.760 in the house, and it was declared a PFA. 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:15.240 PFA is protected forensic area ye. 0:22:15.840 --> 0:22:18.760 So couldn't let anybody in, and we had to leave 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:25.280 everything in its place and just seize items that needed seizing, 0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:27.960 but leave them where they are and we'll deal with 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:28.400 it later. 0:22:29.160 --> 0:22:33.560 It's apparent from the records that Senior Constable Roberts On 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:38.320 declaring it a PFA, asked for forensics, a formal request 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:41.080 for the forensics team to turn up, but they never 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:41.560 turned up. 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:44.280 What happened there, well, he asked for crime car, so 0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:50.439 the detectives rolled up along with a second car with 0:22:51.000 --> 0:22:55.080 other trainee detectives. And I've seen these people around, but 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:58.120 when people become a detective or in the crime car, 0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:02.520 blue collars not to accept it that, well, it's a 0:23:02.560 --> 0:23:06.439 bad habit that detectives have got. They don't want to 0:23:06.440 --> 0:23:09.720 listen to their ground crew, which are their eyes and ears, 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:11.800 which are of the frontline police. 0:23:20.400 --> 0:23:25.240 According to police records, detectives Tony Kirkman and Tom Wiederman 0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:27.640 arrived about seven pm. 0:23:28.119 --> 0:23:30.639 So in the ranking system, you're well and truly the 0:23:30.640 --> 0:23:33.879 foot soldier and they turn up as officers. And there's 0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:35.359 very much division there. 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:40.040 Is there, I think, So, yeah, there's always been that 0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:44.720 division from years before. It's always been the same. 0:23:45.160 --> 0:23:47.600 So let me just get this right. I'm struggling to 0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:52.000 understand this. So there's three police officers on the scene, 0:23:52.040 --> 0:23:56.280 and you're treating this bedroom and the house by extension, 0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:59.560 but you're treating the bedroom where Amy's body is still 0:23:59.560 --> 0:24:01.119 sitting as a PFA. 0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:05.760 Officially, yes, the whole place, actually the whole shed's house, 0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:11.480 everything protected forensic area YEP. And by definition of that category, 0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:14.840 then a forensic team has to turn up. But somehow, 0:24:14.880 --> 0:24:20.480 somewhere in the ensuing two or three hours, that request 0:24:20.520 --> 0:24:24.720