WEBVTT - Finding the Missing with their Phones. 0:00:04.071 --> 0:00:06.551 Podcast Unite Our Voices. 0:00:11.751 --> 0:00:15.351 This is Curtain, a podcast where we expose the disappearances 0:00:15.391 --> 0:00:18.871 of Aboriginal people across this country, shining a light on 0:00:18.951 --> 0:00:20.791 the darkest parts of our justice system. 0:00:21.111 --> 0:00:25.631 We ask who are the victims? I'm aiming Maquire, and 0:00:25.631 --> 0:00:30.111 I'm Martin Hodgson, Senior Advocate at the Foreign Prisoner Support Service. 0:00:30.311 --> 0:00:33.791 And a warning. This series contains the names of deceased 0:00:33.871 --> 0:00:38.351 people and includes distressing content that may upset some listeners. 0:00:42.031 --> 0:00:46.191 Hello, Welcome to Season two, Episode seven of Curtain, the 0:00:46.191 --> 0:00:49.751 podcast where we're looking in depth at the disappearances of 0:00:49.871 --> 0:00:53.711 Aboriginal women. And today we're going to take a turn. 0:00:54.311 --> 0:00:58.151 We're going to look particularly at police investigations because we 0:00:58.191 --> 0:01:00.431 feel we need an evidence base in which to work 0:01:00.471 --> 0:01:03.431 from when we begin looking at cases that we're going 0:01:03.431 --> 0:01:07.031 to investigate through this podcast, and we want to give 0:01:07.071 --> 0:01:10.111 you the listener and understanding and the background of some 0:01:10.191 --> 0:01:13.391 of the logistics and roles that police play when they're 0:01:13.431 --> 0:01:17.231 actively looking at missing persons. The reason this is so 0:01:17.311 --> 0:01:20.671 important is because we're looking particularly at the racialized nature 0:01:20.711 --> 0:01:24.111 of these cases and how the police are complicit in 0:01:24.151 --> 0:01:28.191 the continual disappearances of Aboriginal women in order to understand that, 0:01:28.271 --> 0:01:33.111 we have to actually delve into police protocols and how 0:01:33.151 --> 0:01:38.191 they actually investigate these ongoing cases. We're going to specifically 0:01:38.351 --> 0:01:42.991 look at one issue, and that's triangulation because it does 0:01:43.031 --> 0:01:45.631 play a role when police are going out to look 0:01:45.671 --> 0:01:50.071 for a missing person. Across Australia, over forty thousand people 0:01:50.231 --> 0:01:55.031 are reported missing every year. We don't really know how 0:01:55.111 --> 0:01:58.551 many of those are Aboriginal people, how many of those 0:01:58.591 --> 0:02:02.431 are Aboriginal men, women, and children, because the police often 0:02:02.471 --> 0:02:04.911 do not count and they don't tell us. 0:02:05.151 --> 0:02:06.991 The majority of those missing. 0:02:06.631 --> 0:02:09.791 Persons are found within a day. Then there's about two 0:02:09.831 --> 0:02:14.111 percent of US persons who are ongoing missing person's cases, 0:02:14.151 --> 0:02:17.991 and we've told you in this podcast that it disproportionately 0:02:17.991 --> 0:02:21.351 affects Aboriginal women and people in particular. 0:02:22.511 --> 0:02:23.311 Martin has done his. 0:02:23.391 --> 0:02:26.751 Own research into the issue of triangulation, and so we're 0:02:26.751 --> 0:02:29.831 going to start there. Martin, can I ask you first 0:02:29.951 --> 0:02:31.151 what is triangulation? 0:02:31.751 --> 0:02:38.271 So triangulation is one form of locating someone via their 0:02:38.311 --> 0:02:42.551 mobile phone. So in this day and age, it's really 0:02:42.591 --> 0:02:47.111 important given that almost everybody has their mobile has a 0:02:47.151 --> 0:02:50.791 mobile phone and often has it when they go missing. 0:02:51.711 --> 0:02:54.871 It is known that some people do leave their mobile 0:02:54.911 --> 0:03:01.231 phone behind, but generally those missing persons cases where the 0:03:01.271 --> 0:03:06.911 mobile phone has been left behind and tragically involves suicide. 0:03:07.631 --> 0:03:10.791 So given that so many people who go missing have 0:03:10.911 --> 0:03:16.831 their mobile phone on them, triangulation allows the police to 0:03:16.871 --> 0:03:21.431 locate a person using their mobile data. And the way 0:03:21.511 --> 0:03:26.311 it works is that almost every mobile phone app that 0:03:26.351 --> 0:03:30.911 you have knows your location. You give your phone approval 0:03:31.111 --> 0:03:35.191 for that app to access it, so it can be 0:03:35.271 --> 0:03:41.311 done via GPS, which is a much more powerful tool 0:03:41.391 --> 0:03:45.991 as it's very accurate. But triangulation, as it's used currently 0:03:46.031 --> 0:03:51.391 by most state polices in Australia, simply involves looking at 0:03:51.511 --> 0:03:56.151 the most recent mobile phone towers that a mobile phone 0:03:56.191 --> 0:04:00.671 has communicated with, So for it to be most effective, 0:04:00.791 --> 0:04:05.551 you want three mobile phone towers, as has been shown 0:04:05.671 --> 0:04:10.151 in a missing person's case in Victoria this year, just 0:04:10.311 --> 0:04:14.871 one mobile phone tower was enough. And the way it works, 0:04:14.951 --> 0:04:19.351 quite simply, is that when your mobile phone communicates with 0:04:19.431 --> 0:04:23.911 a tower, it takes a certain number of milliseconds for 0:04:23.991 --> 0:04:26.591 the data to go to the tower and come back 0:04:26.591 --> 0:04:31.231 from your phone, and triangulation allows for that amount of 0:04:31.271 --> 0:04:35.591 time to be measured, and when you measure that across 0:04:35.631 --> 0:04:40.871 the three mobile phone towers. You basically draw a circle 0:04:41.071 --> 0:04:44.951 around each one based on the time it took, and 0:04:45.111 --> 0:04:49.151 each millisecond gives you roughly the number of meters it is. 0:04:49.831 --> 0:04:53.631 And it allows those three circles, once they're drawn, to 0:04:53.711 --> 0:04:57.831 show a common point where they overlap, and that will 0:04:57.871 --> 0:05:02.031 help police know within roughly fifty to two hundred meters 0:05:02.711 --> 0:05:07.951 where a person might be. Using what's known as trilateration, 0:05:08.231 --> 0:05:13.151 which some police forces are now using, you can locate 0:05:13.231 --> 0:05:18.551 someone to within ten meters or less. So when someone's missing, 0:05:19.031 --> 0:05:22.711 this is a really powerful tool, but it has to 0:05:22.751 --> 0:05:25.431 be used and it has to be used appropriately. 0:05:25.911 --> 0:05:28.671 So Martin, can the police so just say a missing 0:05:28.751 --> 0:05:32.431 person has been reported, Can the police just go and 0:05:32.471 --> 0:05:34.751 do that and decide to triangulate their phone or are 0:05:34.791 --> 0:05:38.111 their protocols in place that they have to meet first? 0:05:38.351 --> 0:05:44.271 Yeah, So there's protocols in place, and there's Commonwealth legislation 0:05:44.431 --> 0:05:49.911 that governs it and governs it around the Telecommunications Act 0:05:49.991 --> 0:05:53.871 and also the Privacy Act. So one of the first 0:05:53.951 --> 0:05:56.791 hurdles that has to be overcome is that the person 0:05:56.911 --> 0:06:00.951 has to be deemed high risk and that's either high 0:06:01.031 --> 0:06:08.111 risk of or harming themselves, hurting or harming someone else, 0:06:08.751 --> 0:06:14.071 or being hurt or seriously harmed. But one of the 0:06:14.071 --> 0:06:17.871 problems with that is obviously different police are going to 0:06:17.911 --> 0:06:21.751 assess someone as high risk differently, and this is what 0:06:21.831 --> 0:06:25.591 we've seen come out throughout a number of inquests that 0:06:26.591 --> 0:06:30.551 generally officers who are familiar with missing persons cases and 0:06:30.631 --> 0:06:35.711 have had the appropriate training will understand much better who 0:06:35.831 --> 0:06:40.351 is at high risk, whereas we've seen far too often 0:06:40.591 --> 0:06:44.871 that police officers who have not had that training, and 0:06:44.991 --> 0:06:49.431 many have admitted on the stand under oath that they 0:06:49.471 --> 0:06:54.511 were never given the training to do these assessments and 0:06:54.751 --> 0:06:59.871 have wrongly categorized people as low or medium risk. And 0:07:00.151 --> 0:07:03.151 if someone is only at low risk or medium risk, 0:07:03.871 --> 0:07:08.431 then the legislation does not allow for the triangulation to occur. 0:07:09.271 --> 0:07:12.711 And what's important to understand is that is even if 0:07:12.751 --> 0:07:16.791 the family requests it, and in a lot of inquests 0:07:17.471 --> 0:07:20.631 we've seen recently where the person has never been found, 0:07:21.351 --> 0:07:26.751 the family were desperately asking for that. So the other 0:07:26.911 --> 0:07:32.391 test is that and something that's just been changed was 0:07:32.431 --> 0:07:35.991 that the person had to face an imminent threat, meaning 0:07:36.031 --> 0:07:41.511 the danger to them was very serious. And what the 0:07:41.591 --> 0:07:45.111 inquests over the last ten years have found is again 0:07:46.031 --> 0:07:52.271 different police were determining imminent as being different from case 0:07:52.311 --> 0:07:57.031 to case, and often they were completely wrong, and again 0:07:57.111 --> 0:08:01.351 they just hadn't had the training. So a number of 0:08:01.471 --> 0:08:08.471 requests for triangulation were refused based on these misunderstandings and 0:08:08.631 --> 0:08:12.231 often just bad practice. So the way it works is 0:08:12.471 --> 0:08:16.871 a police officer will be assigned to a missing person's 0:08:16.871 --> 0:08:20.071 case and then they take charge and they're supposed to 0:08:20.191 --> 0:08:23.991 have a role throughout that process. Obviously they're not on 0:08:24.111 --> 0:08:27.031 duty twenty four to seven, so the file of the 0:08:27.071 --> 0:08:30.591 missing person is supposed to be updated, and new information 0:08:31.511 --> 0:08:35.751 about that person means that a new risk assessment should 0:08:35.751 --> 0:08:40.271 be done. Once they are deemed high risk with the 0:08:40.351 --> 0:08:45.071 approval of their generally like the station manager for one 0:08:45.071 --> 0:08:49.271 of a better word, it's usually an inspector, they will 0:08:49.271 --> 0:08:53.431 then ask them if they can apply for triangulation to 0:08:53.471 --> 0:08:59.911 be performed. Then that officer has to call a dedicated 0:09:00.031 --> 0:09:04.351 officer in the police force in each state ask for 0:09:04.391 --> 0:09:11.071 their permission, and that officer decides whether it's high risk 0:09:11.271 --> 0:09:14.791 and whether there is a risk of serious harm or 0:09:14.831 --> 0:09:19.991 death to either the person someone else or causing it 0:09:20.031 --> 0:09:25.031 to themselves. And again we've seen that knocked back far 0:09:25.151 --> 0:09:29.431 too many times where triangulation would have worked very well 0:09:29.551 --> 0:09:32.351 and it was refused by that officer with the powder 0:09:32.471 --> 0:09:39.111 decide whether it's used. So just last year, the federal 0:09:39.191 --> 0:09:44.791 government overwhelmingly voted to remove the imminent aspect of the 0:09:44.831 --> 0:09:49.391 threat because it was something it seemed largely to be 0:09:49.471 --> 0:09:52.751 a word that many police did not even understand its meaning, 0:09:53.231 --> 0:09:56.271 and a number of coroners were very scathing of the 0:09:56.311 --> 0:10:01.391 police that it was obvious to all experts involved except 0:10:01.471 --> 0:10:06.231 the police, that the was in imminent danger, and yet 0:10:06.271 --> 0:10:09.231 the police did not understand that, not because they didn't 0:10:09.311 --> 0:10:13.111 understand the evidence, but they simply didn't understand the word. 0:10:13.991 --> 0:10:18.511 So to get past that risk, the word imminent has 0:10:18.551 --> 0:10:23.111 been removed from the legislation. But we still have the 0:10:23.191 --> 0:10:28.671 issue of whether police even ask for triangulation to occur, 0:10:29.511 --> 0:10:32.351 whether they deem the person to be at risk, whether 0:10:32.391 --> 0:10:36.271 they deem the person to be worthy. We've heard too 0:10:36.311 --> 0:10:40.671 often where police have accused Aboriginal women in particular of 0:10:40.871 --> 0:10:43.751 just walking off for gone walk about, and in that 0:10:43.911 --> 0:10:48.711 case it simply will not be used. And the problem 0:10:48.791 --> 0:10:52.271 with that, and the problem with making that assertion by 0:10:52.311 --> 0:10:55.591 the police, and that assumption that the person wasn't at 0:10:55.711 --> 0:10:58.951 risk of harm and has just walked off or gone 0:10:58.991 --> 0:11:03.151 away for a few days. Is once the battery of 0:11:03.191 --> 0:11:08.871 that far goes flat, triangulation is almost impossible, and so 0:11:09.631 --> 0:11:14.391 we need the police and emergency services who also including 0:11:15.791 --> 0:11:19.711 ambulance and fire departments who do have access to this 0:11:21.231 --> 0:11:25.871 technology as well, to understand how urgent that first twenty 0:11:25.871 --> 0:11:26.711 four hours is. 0:11:27.231 --> 0:11:29.671 I'm just wondering Martin as well, with the fact that 0:11:30.471 --> 0:11:34.311 triangulation kind assisted a battery is flat, what would happen, 0:11:34.471 --> 0:11:37.831 for example, in a case where maybe a person hasn't 0:11:37.871 --> 0:11:40.791 been reported missing until a couple of days after, maybe 0:11:40.791 --> 0:11:43.431 because the family didn't know where they were or what 0:11:43.551 --> 0:11:47.311 had happened, or that the police response had been a 0:11:47.351 --> 0:11:50.231 bit lax in that it had been a few days 0:11:50.231 --> 0:11:56.551 since the person has been last seen. Would triangulation in 0:11:56.591 --> 0:12:00.231 any way assist or would there be I guess justification 0:12:00.311 --> 0:12:02.871 for not using triangulation by those police officers. 0:12:03.911 --> 0:12:07.111 I don't think there is a justification for not using it, 0:12:07.151 --> 0:12:11.031 but it is often justified by saying the phone will 0:12:11.071 --> 0:12:12.191 have gone flat. 0:12:12.591 --> 0:12:12.711 Now. 0:12:12.791 --> 0:12:15.471 The reason why I say it should still be used 0:12:15.591 --> 0:12:19.791 is because let's say, for example, that a person will 0:12:19.791 --> 0:12:23.551 make it really basic. Goes missing in camera in the 0:12:23.591 --> 0:12:27.631 Act and after two days you can be pretty sure 0:12:27.671 --> 0:12:31.031 that a modern mobile phone will have gone flat, it 0:12:31.071 --> 0:12:33.911 will have lost all battery charge and not be giving 0:12:33.951 --> 0:12:38.471 out a signal anymore. And in the vast majority of 0:12:38.511 --> 0:12:42.431 missing persons cases, obviously they don't have a phone charger, 0:12:42.631 --> 0:12:47.711 especially if they're at risk someone's taken them. But my 0:12:47.911 --> 0:12:52.511 argument is that you can still ascertain the last location 0:12:52.911 --> 0:12:56.271 of that phone. And so if that person's gone missing 0:12:56.391 --> 0:13:01.711 from Canberra and they're reported missing in camera, but you 0:13:01.831 --> 0:13:06.551 request triangulation and shows that they're in Wollongong or that 0:13:06.791 --> 0:13:13.111 was the last known location, suddenly you completely change your investigation. 0:13:14.071 --> 0:13:17.951 You're much more likely now to focus on the area 0:13:18.031 --> 0:13:22.671 around Wollongong. You're also going to change who did that 0:13:22.751 --> 0:13:26.271 person maybe know from Wollongong. Was there someone who was 0:13:26.311 --> 0:13:29.311 a threat to them who had a reason to head 0:13:29.431 --> 0:13:33.711 to the Wollongong area if they had kidnapped or taken 0:13:33.751 --> 0:13:38.551 that person. It would also mean that it would instantly 0:13:38.551 --> 0:13:43.511 give authority to the Act Police to contact New South 0:13:43.511 --> 0:13:48.871 Wales Police, both at a statewide level, so that a 0:13:48.911 --> 0:13:52.191 missing person's report could be put out across New South 0:13:52.231 --> 0:13:56.591 Wales and also they could contact Wollongong Local Area Command 0:13:57.311 --> 0:14:02.631 so that investigations could take place in that area, and 0:14:02.671 --> 0:14:05.991 that would also police to go to the last known 0:14:06.631 --> 0:14:10.391 location of that mobile phone and look for clues and 0:14:10.431 --> 0:14:16.231 evidence there. So that's why I always believe that when 0:14:16.271 --> 0:14:21.031 someone is at risk, it still should be used. The 0:14:21.071 --> 0:14:25.151 other issue is that there is newer and better technology 0:14:25.631 --> 0:14:29.791 usually known as trilateration, and what it is able to 0:14:29.831 --> 0:14:34.231 do is like any app on your mobile phone, and 0:14:34.271 --> 0:14:37.591 what your mobile phone does is not only is it 0:14:37.751 --> 0:14:44.631 using mobile phone sell tower data, it's also using the 0:14:44.751 --> 0:14:48.511 data of any Wi Fi networks that your phone has 0:14:48.831 --> 0:14:53.151 either connected to or attempted to connect to. And it 0:14:53.191 --> 0:14:58.831 also uses the GPS signal inside your phone, which if 0:14:58.911 --> 0:15:03.391 you've ever used say Google Maps, it knows exactly where 0:15:03.431 --> 0:15:05.991 you are. If you are standing on the corner of 0:15:06.031 --> 0:15:09.431 a street, it knows you're standing on the corner of 0:15:09.431 --> 0:15:15.591 a street. So that information is available to police if 0:15:15.591 --> 0:15:19.751 they choose to use it. And people might think that 0:15:20.631 --> 0:15:24.951 this is very difficult or expensive, but anybody who has 0:15:25.031 --> 0:15:29.911 an Apple device will have access to the fine MyPhone 0:15:30.271 --> 0:15:33.231 feature which you can use to find your phone or 0:15:33.271 --> 0:15:37.391 your iPad or rye Watch, and it's no more complicated 0:15:37.431 --> 0:15:43.031 than that, and that app simply relies on trilateration. So 0:15:43.511 --> 0:15:47.751 the last Wi Fi network, which a Wi Fi network 0:15:47.791 --> 0:15:51.991 has a very small range it would generally in a 0:15:52.031 --> 0:15:56.791 residential area, allow you to determine that the person was 0:15:56.831 --> 0:16:01.111 in one of maybe two houses at the most. It 0:16:01.151 --> 0:16:05.471 also uses the GPS data, which not only lets police 0:16:05.591 --> 0:16:09.991 know the location or the last known location, but the 0:16:10.111 --> 0:16:13.551 route by which the person has gone from their last 0:16:13.591 --> 0:16:18.471 known location to where that phone currently is, and it 0:16:18.551 --> 0:16:23.391 also can tell them which Wi Fi connections it's tried 0:16:23.431 --> 0:16:26.351 to pick up along the way, again helping with that 0:16:26.951 --> 0:16:33.391 root information. So it's a very powerful tool, especially because 0:16:33.431 --> 0:16:54.151 we know how important those first twenty four hours are. 0:16:55.631 --> 0:16:57.631 And just to clarify, madam, because I think you know, 0:16:57.711 --> 0:17:01.071 just thinking through what triangulation actually is in logistics. So 0:17:01.511 --> 0:17:04.471 even if the phone is off, can still get that 0:17:04.551 --> 0:17:07.871 same data before the phone was turned off? Is that 0:17:07.911 --> 0:17:11.271 how a triangulation works? You can still you're still able 0:17:11.311 --> 0:17:14.911 to get the data from the towers after it's turned off. 0:17:15.111 --> 0:17:19.711 Yes, So the way that then works is that if 0:17:19.751 --> 0:17:24.151 the phone's live, as in the battery hasn't turned off, 0:17:24.191 --> 0:17:29.871 the police have the ability to access that information for themselves. 0:17:30.991 --> 0:17:33.911 Generally if once the phone is off, they will then 0:17:33.991 --> 0:17:38.791 need the assistance of the telecommunications provider, and the legislation 0:17:39.071 --> 0:17:43.231 covers the procedures for that, so the police officer in 0:17:43.351 --> 0:17:47.591 charge will then be able to call, say the person's 0:17:47.711 --> 0:17:52.511 mobile phone was with Voteraphone, They can call Votaphone and 0:17:52.671 --> 0:17:57.511 Votaphone can very quickly bring up on their computer which 0:17:57.871 --> 0:18:01.911 sell towers. Mobile phone towers were the last ones that 0:18:01.911 --> 0:18:07.911 that Mobile Phone ACTSS. And in addition to that, using trilateration, 0:18:09.671 --> 0:18:16.391 the police also have the power to contact say Google 0:18:16.671 --> 0:18:21.031 or Meta who runs Facebook and Instagram and all the 0:18:21.071 --> 0:18:27.271 other app providers and developers, and get information from them 0:18:27.431 --> 0:18:31.751 as to when a person may have logged onto Facebook, 0:18:32.431 --> 0:18:39.111 and that will also contain their location data, so the 0:18:39.191 --> 0:18:44.471 police have that power. The telecommunications companies have that information 0:18:44.711 --> 0:18:49.271 and it's stored, so even if someone is not reported 0:18:49.311 --> 0:18:53.311 missing for a few days, it's very easy for Facebook 0:18:53.351 --> 0:18:59.631 to go and look when someone lasts accessed their website 0:18:59.791 --> 0:19:03.071 or their app and where that was done from and 0:19:03.151 --> 0:19:05.591 how it was done, was it done using Wi Fi 0:19:07.911 --> 0:19:11.471 mobile phone data? And where did that come from? And 0:19:11.511 --> 0:19:14.471 they'll be up to again detail that to a very 0:19:14.511 --> 0:19:19.551 close area. So it really reduces things from looking for 0:19:19.751 --> 0:19:24.911 a needle in a haystack to really giving police a 0:19:25.111 --> 0:19:29.351 very good location of either where the person is or 0:19:29.391 --> 0:19:33.831 where they have been. And just to give one example 0:19:34.311 --> 0:19:39.151 of a person who sadly passed away having been reported 0:19:39.231 --> 0:19:45.511 missing by their family, the police chose not to request triangulation. 0:19:45.871 --> 0:19:50.551 That request was refused by the senior police officer because 0:19:50.591 --> 0:19:55.271 they didn't believe the person was at risk of serious harm, 0:19:55.311 --> 0:19:59.991 even though the evidence showed that they were, and they 0:20:00.151 --> 0:20:03.031 were known after the event to have been in a 0:20:03.111 --> 0:20:08.271 room in a certain hotel and the later triangulation and 0:20:08.351 --> 0:20:16.751 trilateration data pinpointed that room, and had police made the 0:20:16.871 --> 0:20:21.151 request for triangulation, they would have had four hours where 0:20:21.151 --> 0:20:23.871 that person was still alive and still in that hotel 0:20:23.951 --> 0:20:27.351 room and be able to go immediately to where they were. 0:20:27.631 --> 0:20:30.671 And Madam, what happens. Is there any difference in geography, 0:20:30.751 --> 0:20:34.591 for example, the use of triangulation in a city compared 0:20:34.631 --> 0:20:37.511 to a regional or particularly a rural area where there 0:20:37.591 --> 0:20:40.591 might not be those levels of data available. 0:20:41.351 --> 0:20:46.191 Yeah, that's a really good point. So one thing, geography 0:20:46.231 --> 0:20:51.151 plays a big role in multiple senses. One is that 0:20:52.711 --> 0:20:56.471 obviously in a city there are far more mobile phone 0:20:56.791 --> 0:21:01.391 towers than out in regional Australia, and even less in 0:21:01.431 --> 0:21:07.471 the bush. The other issue is that something like a mountain, 0:21:08.031 --> 0:21:13.991 even when you have mobile phone access and reception, will 0:21:14.031 --> 0:21:19.031 slow down the speed at which the signal bounces from 0:21:19.111 --> 0:21:22.351 the person's phone to the tower and back again, and 0:21:22.431 --> 0:21:27.871 so that can throw out the calculations, but again it 0:21:28.071 --> 0:21:33.471 still at least gives the police an idea. In the city, 0:21:33.591 --> 0:21:35.671 you can have things like if someone was in an 0:21:35.711 --> 0:21:40.231 underground car park, then there might not be any reception, 0:21:41.111 --> 0:21:44.591 or there might be a great delay again in that 0:21:44.711 --> 0:21:47.631 signal going from the mobile tower back to the phone, 0:21:48.271 --> 0:21:51.351 but it will still tell the police that they were 0:21:51.391 --> 0:21:56.591 in that underground car park. In a country area where 0:21:58.591 --> 0:22:01.871 mobile phone reception is poor still in Australia, and Australia 0:22:01.911 --> 0:22:05.751 is one of the worst countries in the OECD for 0:22:06.911 --> 0:22:11.951 mobile phone reception, it will still drastically narrow down a 0:22:11.991 --> 0:22:16.791 person's location, even if it's not as accurate. Again, so 0:22:16.991 --> 0:22:20.471 in the city you could be accurate within at least 0:22:20.511 --> 0:22:23.951 a few hundred meters, if not within one or two 0:22:23.991 --> 0:22:27.591 houses on a street. In a rural area. It might 0:22:27.751 --> 0:22:32.871 give you a result of perhaps one square kilometer, but 0:22:32.911 --> 0:22:35.591 that is still a hell of a lot better than 0:22:35.751 --> 0:22:40.631 someone being three or four or five towns away. So 0:22:40.951 --> 0:22:45.751 I would argue it's always useful, and as technology improves, 0:22:45.791 --> 0:22:48.111 it's becoming increasingly more useful. 0:22:48.231 --> 0:22:50.551 And I was just wondering as well, like surely that 0:22:51.111 --> 0:22:53.671 it just shocks me so much that police would be 0:22:54.111 --> 0:22:57.631 reluctant to use triangulation if there's a search and rescue 0:22:57.671 --> 0:23:00.031 as well, and a search and rescue effort, because it 0:23:00.071 --> 0:23:01.951 makes me think that if you're searching in the wrong 0:23:01.991 --> 0:23:05.271 place or you have the wrong paravidus for research and 0:23:05.311 --> 0:23:08.311 you haven't done that triangulation, you've wasted all those resources 0:23:08.351 --> 0:23:11.791 and that time towards finding that person as well, Like, 0:23:11.871 --> 0:23:15.951 it's shocking that this isn't a key part in investigating 0:23:16.711 --> 0:23:19.911 missing purposes to begin with, particularly when you know, like 0:23:19.911 --> 0:23:22.191 a lot of these cases we know of, there have 0:23:22.311 --> 0:23:25.671 been searchers, and what we're going to argue in future 0:23:25.711 --> 0:23:27.831 episodes is that they were searching in the wrong place. 0:23:28.071 --> 0:23:32.551 Yeah, it's really important for people to understand that. Because 0:23:33.231 --> 0:23:38.551 there was resistance to the Amendment to the Telecommunications Act 0:23:39.831 --> 0:23:43.631 that made this now easier for the police to access. 0:23:43.991 --> 0:23:48.631 There were organizations who wanted this data to be harder 0:23:48.711 --> 0:23:53.871 to access for the police because they were saying that 0:23:54.151 --> 0:23:58.311 it infringes people's right to privacy and the privacy of 0:23:58.351 --> 0:24:05.391 their data. But there are very important and clear boundaries 0:24:05.511 --> 0:24:10.031 with in terms of what information the police can access 0:24:10.231 --> 0:24:17.271 from triangulation. So they can't access your phone calls, who 0:24:17.271 --> 0:24:21.911 you've been calling. They can't access, say, your text messages, 0:24:22.351 --> 0:24:27.631 or your photos or your videos. So there's a lot 0:24:27.631 --> 0:24:32.631 of misinformation around that. And if the police do need 0:24:32.871 --> 0:24:37.151 to access that sort of information, then there is a 0:24:37.231 --> 0:24:40.831 very detailed log that has to be recorded and it's 0:24:41.151 --> 0:24:46.751 monitored by a third party, so states have telecommunications ombardsman. 0:24:48.151 --> 0:24:54.271 There is oversight on how often police use triangulation, in 0:24:54.311 --> 0:24:58.751 what cases was it appropriate, And there really is no 0:24:58.911 --> 0:25:03.551 suggestion of any merit that I can see that argue 0:25:03.791 --> 0:25:08.791 against using it. Largely, in my opinion, the pushback against 0:25:08.911 --> 0:25:13.511 using it is misguided, and it's misguided in the sense 0:25:13.551 --> 0:25:18.191 that it's seeking to protect people's privacy when those people's 0:25:18.231 --> 0:25:20.791 privacy is not at risk. What is at risk is 0:25:20.831 --> 0:25:25.791 their life, And what we know is that in nations 0:25:25.871 --> 0:25:30.351 like the United Kingdom, where they've been using this technology 0:25:30.391 --> 0:25:33.271 for a lot longer than we have in Australia, that 0:25:33.671 --> 0:25:38.511 sixty four percent of people were located within the first 0:25:38.591 --> 0:25:42.591 forty eight hours, and that twenty two percent were located 0:25:42.631 --> 0:25:46.591 within the first week, and ninety seven percent of all 0:25:46.671 --> 0:25:50.791 missing people in the United Kingdom ended up being found alive. 0:25:52.071 --> 0:25:57.911 That's by the police, and that at least twenty percent 0:25:58.071 --> 0:26:03.031 of those cases in the forty eight hours, triangulation was 0:26:03.071 --> 0:26:06.911 a crucial tool in finding them. And so this was 0:26:07.231 --> 0:26:12.231 part of arguing for the change to the legislation last year, 0:26:12.511 --> 0:26:16.791 was that it really is very very important, and especially 0:26:16.831 --> 0:26:20.071 as you pointed out Amy, where we know in so 0:26:20.231 --> 0:26:23.591 many missing persons cases where the police have simply been 0:26:23.671 --> 0:26:27.071 looking in the wrong area, that this is a tool 0:26:27.111 --> 0:26:31.311 that would have put search and rescue, the SEES and 0:26:31.351 --> 0:26:35.391 other volunteer organizations like Surf Life savers looking in the 0:26:35.471 --> 0:26:39.671 right area. It's not just police who can use this technology, 0:26:39.711 --> 0:26:45.271 it is emergency services across the board. And so one 0:26:45.271 --> 0:26:49.511 of the big problems, however, remains police reluctance to use 0:26:49.551 --> 0:26:53.471 it when they don't believe someone is at a high risk. 0:26:54.311 --> 0:26:58.871 And I think we have explored and we understand that 0:26:58.911 --> 0:27:03.351 in Australia, Aboriginal women and children are at a particularly 0:27:03.431 --> 0:27:07.711 high risk of serious harm or death when they go missing, 0:27:08.311 --> 0:27:12.511 and for it not to be used to locate them 0:27:12.591 --> 0:27:18.191 safely and in a timely manner is deeply problematic. Just 0:27:18.231 --> 0:27:22.991 to give one more example, many people will know about 0:27:23.111 --> 0:27:29.031 baby Charlie who was murdered in Western Australia. Both his 0:27:29.751 --> 0:27:35.551 mother and his grandfather begged police to use triangulation to 0:27:35.671 --> 0:27:41.991 find Baby Charlie's former stepfather, who eventually murdered him, and 0:27:42.071 --> 0:27:45.551 the police refused to do it. Baby Charlie was known 0:27:45.591 --> 0:27:49.311 to be alive for at least ten hours after they'd 0:27:49.351 --> 0:27:54.231 made that request, and he was in an area where 0:27:54.831 --> 0:27:59.111 mobile phone data would have shown not only what street 0:27:59.151 --> 0:28:03.631 he was in, but right down to one, maybe two houses. 0:28:04.431 --> 0:28:09.431 He could still be alive if triangulation was used. And 0:28:09.471 --> 0:28:13.631 I think it's a tragic and prime example of where 0:28:13.671 --> 0:28:17.591 this technology can be used to save a life, and 0:28:17.631 --> 0:28:20.591 because of the police was not used to save. 0:28:20.391 --> 0:28:21.751 A life and might I don't know. I was just 0:28:21.791 --> 0:28:23.711 going to say as well, particularly when we talk about 0:28:23.791 --> 0:28:27.271 high risk and vulnerability, like what's more vulnerable than a 0:28:27.311 --> 0:28:30.631 young baby fact that he isn't seen as at risk. 0:28:31.071 --> 0:28:33.151 And I think that's the issue that we're seeing in 0:28:33.191 --> 0:28:35.391 a lot of the cases we're currently looking at, is 0:28:35.431 --> 0:28:40.271 that Aboriginal women are seen as criminals rather than vulnerable 0:28:40.311 --> 0:28:43.791 to violence and as being victimized and as being disappeared. 0:28:44.351 --> 0:28:46.791 And I think so it comes down to, you know, 0:28:46.831 --> 0:28:49.551 the fact that there is this technology that could very 0:28:49.591 --> 0:28:54.711 easily find them, save potentially save lives, but also find 0:28:54.711 --> 0:28:56.551 them to bring them home to their families so their 0:28:56.551 --> 0:28:59.871 families don't have to go through that long process. And 0:28:59.911 --> 0:29:04.111 because of this, these racialized in these outright race views 0:29:04.151 --> 0:29:08.311 of Aboriginal people, we know existing police forces across the country, 0:29:08.671 --> 0:29:11.511 it's not being utilized. And that's what I wanted to 0:29:11.511 --> 0:29:14.431 ask you as a closing question, Martin, is why is 0:29:14.471 --> 0:29:17.271 it so important to actually start digging into things like 0:29:17.351 --> 0:29:22.751 triangulation and I guess investigating every part of these processes 0:29:23.311 --> 0:29:26.111 as we look into these cases have disappeared Aboriginal women. 0:29:26.991 --> 0:29:31.511