1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. Oh, 2 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:16,119 Speaker 1: now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome to the 3 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: Daily OS. It's Monday, the third of November. I'm Billie 4 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 1: with Simon's. 5 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 2: I'm Sam Kauzlowski. 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: Last week, late term abortions came up as a point 7 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: of contention in Australia's parliament. It's all because of a 8 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: new proposed bill that would make it illegal for companies 9 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: to cancel paid parental leave if a baby dies or 10 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: is born still born. So what's the connection between that 11 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: and late term abortions and how common actually are late 12 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: term abortions. We'll tell you what you need to know 13 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 1: in today's. 14 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 2: Podcast, Billy. When you pitch this story, I was confused 15 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 2: because abortions don't usually come up as a point of 16 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 2: debate in the federal parliament here in Australia. It feels 17 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 2: like a very American conversation to be having. 18 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: It does. And the reason why it doesn't usually come 19 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: up in Australia's federal parliament, well, there are two reasons. 20 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: The first one is that abortion is not dealt with 21 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: at a national level in Australia. It's a state and 22 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: territory issue. So each state government is responsible for creating 23 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,759 Speaker 1: and enforcing their own abortion law, which actually is also 24 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: the case in the US. But it's very very different 25 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: because the second reason is that abortion, unlike in America, 26 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: is now decriminalized in all states and territories in Australia, 27 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 1: so it's not something that is still debated very often, 28 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: either in Federal Parliament or in any parliament in Australia. 29 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 2: So give me a sense, then we have this uniform 30 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 2: approach now in Australia across those different jurisdictions. Why has 31 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 2: this topic come up now? 32 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: Just to clarify, there are still some differences between the 33 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: second governments. 34 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 2: But at a baseline criminalization. 35 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: Yes, definitely. The reason has come up now is because 36 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: of a bill that labor so the government has introduced 37 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: in Federal Parliament. But that bill on the face of 38 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: it doesn't actually have anything to. 39 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 2: Do with abortion, and so what should I be thinking 40 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 2: about with this bill in terms of the subject area. 41 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 1: So it's about paid parental leave. So last month the 42 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: federal government introduced a bill to make it illegal for 43 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: companies to cancel paid parental leave if a baby is 44 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: stillborn or dies in infancy. It is called Baby Pria's Bill, 45 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,959 Speaker 1: and it was named after a baby called Pria who 46 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 1: died at six weeks old and her mother's paid parental 47 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 1: leave was canceled by her employer. So it was off 48 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: the back of her experience that the Government heard about 49 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: it and implemented this bill, which is yet to become 50 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: law but is currently being debated in Parliament, which is 51 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: why we're talking about it now, just to give you 52 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: a little bit more context. Currently, government funded paid parental 53 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: life leave is not canceled if a baby dies, but 54 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: employer funded paid parental leave can be. 55 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 2: Give me a sense of how the general Australian paid 56 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 2: parental leave scheme works, because I think it's important to 57 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 2: understand what are the current rules in order to understand 58 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: where a potential reform would fit. 59 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, so employees can get paid parental leave payments from 60 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: both their employer and the government after a birth or adoption, 61 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: and you can get both at the same time. So 62 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: the government one gives parents twenty four weeks of minimum 63 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: wage payments. Parents do need to complete an income test 64 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: to prove their eligibility for that one because it is 65 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: capped at a certain salary, and then separate to that 66 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: employers can also give their employees paid parental leave on 67 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: top of that, on top of that, which can vary 68 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: depending on companies policies and contracts. But that's more to 69 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: maintain the salary that you're at. The government one is 70 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: minimum wage. Now, what this law is doing that we're 71 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: talking about today, it is making it illegal for companies 72 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: to cancel their agreed upon paid print to leave if 73 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: the employee's baby is born, stillborn, or dies. 74 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 2: And so this bill, baby Priya's bill. You said that 75 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: that's a government bill before, so we know that labor 76 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 2: is supporting it because they're the ones proposing it. Give 77 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 2: me a sense then of the coalition's position. 78 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: Well, when TDA reached out to the opposition when the 79 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: bill was first introduced, the opposition confirmed that they were 80 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: in favor of it. So Shadow Employment Minister Tim Wilson 81 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: told TDA, quote, when families experience the devastating loss of 82 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: an infant, clocking into work should be the last thing 83 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 1: on their mind. He continued, this is an important step 84 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: to ensure compassion and dignity are afforded to grieving parents. 85 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,159 Speaker 2: So when approximately was this statement given to. 86 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: Us about less than a month ago, But a few 87 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: weeks ago, okay, And it's true still today that the 88 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: opposition broadly is in support of this bill. But there's 89 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: a few politicians who have brought up concerns about what 90 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: they call possible unintended consequences of this bill. And this 91 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: is where abortion. 92 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 2: Comes in, Okay, So the unintended consequences. Now, is this 93 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 2: space that we're going to talk about. Yes, it's not 94 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 2: necessarily I assume a lack of sympathy for the extremely 95 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 2: traumatic event, but another kind of angle to this. 96 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so specifically this is about late term abortions. Now, 97 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: just to give you some context, there's not one exact 98 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: definition of when an abortion is considered late term, but 99 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 1: broadly speaking its abortions after the twentieth week of pregnancy. 100 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: So in relation to this bill, a few politicians part 101 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: of the coalition, including former Nationals leader Barnaby Joyce and 102 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: also Liberal MP Andrew Hasty, who we recently spoke about 103 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: because it was speculated that he possibly wanted to take 104 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 1: the leadership of the Liberal Party from Susan Ly. He 105 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: has since stepped down from the front bench, but that's 106 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: a whole other story. But it's him and Barnaby Joyce, 107 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: who have kind of led this or are definitely the 108 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: most high profile Coalition politicians who are speaking out against this. 109 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: They have said that they are concerned that this bill 110 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: could apply to those who have late term abortions, which 111 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 1: they argue should not happen. 112 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 2: Let's get really specific though about what exactly they said here. 113 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, well we can be so specific that I can 114 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 1: even play you a little bit. 115 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 2: Let's let them speak. 116 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: Yes, okay, so this is a little bit of what 117 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: Barnaby Joyce said in Parliament. 118 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 3: I'd stand on the position that the day after a 119 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 3: child is born, no matter what medical conditions or impairments 120 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 3: that might be there, you have no right to interfere 121 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 3: in their life, and therefore the day before, we believe 122 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 3: it's the same. That is something that I hope I've 123 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 3: lived by and I think it's incredibly important for me 124 00:06:57,560 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 3: to state my position on this. There must be a 125 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 3: clarification on this issue. It must be clarified before we 126 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 3: come to a vote. 127 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: He went on to say that he supports the bill, 128 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: but he just doesn't support it if this one thing 129 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: is not clarified. And I just want to reiterate they 130 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: are not debating whether or not late term abortions should 131 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: be legal or not. Again, that's not a thing for 132 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: Federal Parliament to decide. They are debating whether this specific 133 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: law should apply to those who have late term abortions. 134 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: Although I say they are debating it, it's not really 135 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: a debate because it's not actually As we'll get into 136 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: part of this bill. 137 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 2: I want to pick up that point because that's a 138 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 2: really interesting one. But before we get there, I think 139 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 2: a really important duty of the news in dealing with 140 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 2: stories like this is to actually ground ourselves in the numbers. 141 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 2: So can you give me a sense of how actually 142 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 2: common are late term abortions? 143 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: Well, I think the first thing to say is that 144 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: late term abortions are not legal in most parts of Australia, 145 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: pretty much all parts of Australia, unless it is in 146 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: rare circumstances that call for it, such as fetal abnormality 147 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: or if the mother's life is deemed to be at risk, 148 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: and typically you'll need approval from two doctors. So that's 149 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: the case in all states and territories except the Act, 150 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: where there is no gestational limit. But again, late term 151 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: abortions remain very very rare there, and it is still 152 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: in only very rare circumstances. 153 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 2: So statistically insignificant. 154 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: Yes, And I think why that's worth clarifying as well 155 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: is because it's not accurate to say that a woman 156 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: in Australia can get an abortion the day before she's 157 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: due to give birth. That is not legal. In terms 158 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: of how common late term abortions are, again remembering we're 159 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: talking about post twenty weeks of pregnancy. I couldn't find 160 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: an exact number for how many nationally occur. It's quite 161 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: complicated because it is dealt with states and territories. But 162 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: to give you an example, in South Australia, they say 163 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: the proportion of terminations that happen after twenty weeks is 164 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: less than three percent. 165 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 2: Okay, So the argument being mounted or entertained by Barnaby 166 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 2: Joyce is that there is a group that is falling 167 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 2: into this category because of a late term abortion. We 168 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 2: now understand that that's a very small group of people. 169 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 2: What has Andrew Hasty said on this then. 170 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: He's basically said the same thing. He said that he 171 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: agrees with the intention of this bill, but he does 172 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: not support it being used for any person who has 173 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: a late term abortion, and so he has asked the 174 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: government to clarify if this applies to late. 175 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 2: Term abortions and has the government done that. 176 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: They have, although they've basically said there's no clarification needed 177 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: because they argue the bill is very clear in talking 178 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: about stillbirths, which it points out is very different to abortions. 179 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: So the Health Minister Mark Butler said on ABC the 180 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: definitions here are very clear. A still birth is the 181 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: loss of a fetus or a baby through a natural, 182 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 1: spontaneous event. He added, the men who are doing this, 183 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: and they are all men, know the difference between stillbirth 184 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: and abortion. 185 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 2: So what he's saying there I'm hearing very clearly in 186 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 2: the way that you're reporting that quote as well, is 187 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 2: that it is only men from the Coalition who have 188 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 2: spoken about this. Are there any female members of the 189 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 2: Coalition that have had anything to say publicly? Whilst this 190 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 2: debate has been kind of heating up. 191 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, female MPs in the Coalition have spoken about this, 192 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: but from what I could see, none of them were 193 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,439 Speaker 1: saying anything in line with what Barnaby, Joyce and Andrew 194 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: Hasty are saying. They are all in support of it. 195 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: So Shadow Health Minister and Rustin has spoken about specifically 196 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: about the quotes that Barnaby Joyce and Andrew Hasty have given, 197 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: and she said that the coalition isn't support of it. 198 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,439 Speaker 1: She told The Guardian, I think this bill is about 199 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: something completely different, and I'm very focused on making sure 200 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: that we keep our bipartisan commitment to Pria's mother. 201 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 2: Okay, So, Billy, final question from me on this. Do 202 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 2: you have any sense of what's next for this bill? 203 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 2: And also I'd love to get your take on whether 204 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 2: you think this will pass and become law. 205 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: I think this will pass because we have heard from 206 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 1: both sides that they are in support of the underlying 207 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: intention of this bill. They've just asked for clarification on 208 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: one thing, and the government has now provided that clarification. 209 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: So I do believe that it will pass. In terms 210 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: of when it will pass, there is a sitting week 211 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: this week, but it might not pass this week. There 212 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: might still be more debate, but I'm confident that it 213 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: will eventually pass because when your starting point is bipartisan support, 214 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: I think that's a pretty good indication. 215 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 2: It is a stunning comparison in the two different political 216 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 2: systems of what we're seeing in the conversation we've had 217 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 2: today and a US discussion which is notoriously polarizing and 218 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 2: takes decades to move through for the US population. Billy, 219 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 2: thank you so much for taking us through that. Thank you, 220 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 2: and that's all we've got time for on this morning's 221 00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,719 Speaker 2: episode of The Daily Oz. Thank you so much for 222 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 2: yours for another week of news from your favorite newsroom. 223 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 2: We're going to be back in the afternoon with some headlines. 224 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 2: Until then, have a great day. 225 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: Bye. My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud 226 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 1: Arunda Bungelung Kalkuton woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz 227 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on the lands of 228 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: the Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and 229 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: Torres s right island and nations. We pay our respects 230 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: to the first peoples of these countries, both past and present.