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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers Now.

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Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson, the founder of Happy

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Speaker 2: Families dot com dot you. Every month or so, I've

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Speaker 2: been having a conversation with the Australian Federal Police Detective

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Speaker 2: Superintendent Jane Crossling from the Australian Center to Counter Child Exploitation,

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Speaker 2: or ACE, as will refer to them throughout the rest

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Speaker 2: of the podcast, is going to join me to talk

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Speaker 2: about one of those topics we've talked about all the

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Speaker 2: hard ones, really, the topics that are so challenging. A

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Speaker 2: lot of parents sort of shrug their shoulder and say, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it will never happen to me.

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Speaker 1: A lot of parents will say I just don't even

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Speaker 1: know where to start.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about the genuinely hard topics that revolve around

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Speaker 2: kids and screens. Jane, thank you for joining me for

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Speaker 2: this conversation about whether or not kids being groomed.

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Speaker 1: Tricky topics dive into today.

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Speaker 3: Thanks Justin.

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Speaker 2: I had a conversation just the other day with somebody

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Speaker 2: who said, I think that we're like the genie is

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Speaker 2: out of the bottle when it comes to kids and screens.

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Speaker 2: They're all over it. We just need to embrace it.

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Speaker 2: We need to stop going on about all the scare tactics.

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Speaker 2: And yet I picked up a book that the Australian

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Speaker 2: Federal Police have written with some very very careful consultants.

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Speaker 2: The book is called Jack Changes the Game and it's

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Speaker 2: a book about kids being approached by strangers for grooming

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Speaker 2: purposes online. I want to talk to you about the

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Speaker 2: book and I want to talk to you about grooming,

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Speaker 2: how often it happens, what we need to be looking

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Speaker 2: out for, and how we can keep our kids safe.

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Speaker 2: So many different ways for us to go here. Let's

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Speaker 2: just start with a really hard hitting question before we

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Speaker 2: get to the book. Do you think that parents grasp

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Speaker 2: the reality of grooming and the dangers that it poses

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Speaker 2: to their children.

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Speaker 4: I think the short answer is no, they don't grasp

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Speaker 4: the serious nature of it and how frequently it can occur.

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Speaker 4: So we have data just for those reports that we

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Speaker 4: actually receive. There could be any number of other instances

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Speaker 4: that are happening where we don't receive those reports.

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Speaker 3: And unfortunately, we are.

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Speaker 4: Receiving reports that involve very young children who have actually

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Speaker 4: been approached online with somebody that intends to groom them.

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Speaker 1: How young is very young.

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Speaker 4: We've seen children, you know, five, six, seven years of

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Speaker 4: age and predominantly through online gaming platforms and sites.

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Speaker 2: Well, so five year olds need to know about grooming,

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Speaker 2: which is kind of tricky because we're barely talking to

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Speaker 2: them about their own private parts. I mean, a lot

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Speaker 2: of parents don't even consider having conversations about procreation intimacy,

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Speaker 2: those kinds of physical intimate moments until kids are somewhere

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Speaker 2: between eight and twelve, depending on the family, depending what

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Speaker 2: the kids are exposed to. So you're really saying that

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Speaker 2: at the age of five, we need to have this conversation,

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Speaker 2: which I guess leads into my question for you about

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Speaker 2: a book, a book written by the Australian Federal Police

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Speaker 2: about grooming.

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Speaker 1: The book's called Jack Changes the Game. You sent it

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Speaker 1: through to me. I've read it.

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Speaker 2: I think that it does a really great job of

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Speaker 2: bringing the topic up. But maybe outside of my endorsement

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Speaker 2: of the book, you could describe what's going on in

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Speaker 2: the book, where you got the ideas from, and how

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Speaker 2: it's come to be.

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Speaker 4: So the whole idea was that there was a gap

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Speaker 4: essentially that we knew that young people were vulnerable to

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Speaker 4: this type of dreaming, and one of the amazing teams

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Speaker 4: that works at ACE, called the Online Child Safety Team,

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Speaker 4: actually had the idea of a children's picture book being

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Speaker 4: part of the solution to fill that gap. They were

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Speaker 4: able to secure some money from an innovation fund that

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Speaker 4: the AFP set up, and they were very successful in

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Speaker 4: getting that bid up. So they took the concept and

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Speaker 4: found an author. We were given access to the notable

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Speaker 4: author tes Rowley and also the illustrator Shannon Haw's Fall,

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Speaker 4: and then they said about building a reference group because

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Speaker 4: at the end of the day, we're law enforcement and

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Speaker 4: we don't purport to be children education experts, and we

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Speaker 4: wanted to make sure that our message was appropriate, particularly

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Speaker 4: age appropriate.

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Speaker 3: But that it was not fear based, and that.

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Speaker 4: It was age appropriate and evidence based most importantly, so

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Speaker 4: we had some notable academics, also.

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Speaker 3: A victim survivor, as well as academics.

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Speaker 4: From psychology, early childhood.

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Speaker 3: And inclusive education areas in academia.

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Speaker 4: So that reference group was able to provide oversight and

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Speaker 4: amazing guidance to the team as the book developed, and

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Speaker 4: it was hopefully with the whole idea in mind of

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Speaker 4: being a conversation star and allowing parents the opportunity to

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Speaker 4: start a conversation about something that they might otherwise feel

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Speaker 4: very uncomfortable about, but something that needed to take place

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Speaker 4: given that young people are online, and we can't shay

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Speaker 4: away from the fact that young people from very very

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Speaker 4: early ages are doing things that are entirely age appropriate.

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Speaker 3: But perhaps there are opportunities there for groomers.

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Speaker 4: That the parents perhaps didn't fully understand.

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Speaker 2: So step me through the story. We've got a character

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Speaker 2: called Jack who is obviously online and gets approached. What

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Speaker 2: happens next in the story.

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Speaker 4: So Jack, when he is approached, he initially feels that

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Speaker 4: he's created a really lovely bond with another person. And

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Speaker 4: this is just so common when young people think that

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Speaker 4: they've found someone online that's very like minded, that they

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Speaker 4: have some sort of connection, and they feel really validated

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Speaker 4: by that. But the messaging there, specifically for the child,

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Speaker 4: is that not everybody online is who they say they are.

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Speaker 4: So helping young people develop a sense to differentiate between

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Speaker 4: online and real world friendships is really critical and we

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Speaker 4: want to keep reinforcing that message that went online they

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Speaker 4: should ideally avoid talking to people that they don't actually

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Speaker 4: know in person. And then also Jack, as part of

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Speaker 4: the journey, actually starts to feel uncomfortable when the conversation

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Speaker 4: goes in a slightly different way. And we think it's

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Speaker 4: so critical that young people understand when something is actually

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Speaker 4: making them feel unsure or unsafe and then what to

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Speaker 4: do about it. They need to actually then reach out.

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Speaker 4: So we see that process where Jack actually reaches out

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Speaker 4: and he is able to see that by having a

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Speaker 4: close relationship with siblings and friends, that they're all part

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Speaker 4: of the ecosystem that can provide that support to a

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Speaker 4: young person when they do reach out, and that it's

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Speaker 4: a positive outcome when contact is made, when a problem

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Speaker 4: is shared, and that it all is a positive outcome

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Speaker 4: for the entire household.

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Speaker 2: I'm speaking with Detective Superintendent Jane Crossling from ACE, the

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Speaker 2: Australian senator counter Child Exploitation. The police are authors, the

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Speaker 2: police have written a book, Jack Changes the Game. It

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Speaker 2: sounds so sinister, Jane, as you talk about this setup,

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Speaker 2: I'm guessing it's based on real life. This is not

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Speaker 2: something that you fictionally created. I presume you have stories

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Speaker 2: like this coming through your front door every day.

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Speaker 3: We're troubled by the amount of reports that we see.

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Speaker 4: So the ACE serves as a front door for reporting

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Speaker 4: for online child sexual exploitation for Australia now, and that

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Speaker 4: includes the type of grooming behavior that we see play

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Speaker 4: out in this book. And we are not only concerned

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Speaker 4: about the volume, but the fact that it impacts on

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Speaker 4: children of every age.

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Speaker 2: Is there an age that's too young to start talking

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Speaker 2: about this? I mean, this is a book that is

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Speaker 2: it's literally a children's book. I mean you could read

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Speaker 2: it to your four year old, your five year old,

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Speaker 2: for sure. Is there an age that's too young to

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Speaker 2: talk about grooming from a police.

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Speaker 3: Standpoint, we don't think there is.

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Speaker 4: We think that it's actually an entirely appropriate thing for

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Speaker 4: a parent or a care to do as soon as

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Speaker 4: that young person is going to be acting interacting with devices,

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Speaker 4: and particularly devices that are connected to the Internet. So

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Speaker 4: this resource is all about having early conversations which could

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Speaker 4: lead to earlier intervention should something wrong go online. And

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Speaker 4: because we've been very gentle in the telling of the story,

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Speaker 4: we feel that that's where the age appropriate.

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Speaker 3: Key feature of the book comes into play.

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Speaker 4: So it's really targeted for an audience of five to

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Speaker 4: eight year olds. It's designed to be led by a

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Speaker 4: parent or a care or indeed a teacher, and we

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Speaker 4: have a whole range of resources to support the book

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Speaker 4: on the website as well that includes additional material that

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Speaker 4: would help a parent, a care or a teacher in

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Speaker 4: how they actually speak to other aspects that might fall

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Speaker 4: out of having read through the book.

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Speaker 3: So we in recognizing that this is.

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Speaker 4: Really really challenging for parents and cares and teachers, this

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Speaker 4: is designed to be a tool and it is just

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Speaker 4: considered an alternative way of delivering what is a really

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Speaker 4: important safety message in a way that's non confrontational. As

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Speaker 4: I said, it's a very gentle message. There's a particular

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Speaker 4: passage that's repeated that can become a little bit of

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Speaker 4: a catch cry, and I think you know, the authors

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Speaker 4: have done such an outstandingly good job to make the

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Speaker 4: message really accessible.

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Speaker 2: Now, Jane, the AFP are not trying to make money

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Speaker 2: off this. In fact, you have sent this book to

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Speaker 2: every school in the country. It's available on every school

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Speaker 2: library in every school around every state and every town

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Speaker 2: and every city in the country, so parents can easily

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Speaker 2: get access to it, they can get the kids to

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Speaker 2: pick it up the library, the parents can call the school.

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Speaker 2: The book is called Jack Changes the Game, and I

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Speaker 2: love how you mentioned before this is a conversation starter.

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Speaker 2: Now I have two more questions as we sort of

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Speaker 2: continue this conversation. My first one is how how does

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Speaker 2: a parent talk about something they know so little about already?

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Speaker 2: Where does a parent even start outside of picking up

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Speaker 2: this book from the library and having a look through

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Speaker 2: it and reading it to their child.

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Speaker 3: We've been tackling that subject quite some time now.

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Speaker 4: The Online Tide Safty team here adays have been responsible

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Speaker 4: for the think you Know initiative for some years now,

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Speaker 4: and that has been about how to start those conversations

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Speaker 4: and making it, you know, age appropriate in how they

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Speaker 4: might embark on that. The other, the other tool that

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Speaker 4: we often talk about is the notion of a family

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Speaker 4: online safety contract. So we've developed this contract. There's a

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Speaker 4: shared agreement between a young person of any age I

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Speaker 4: should stress and the parents to put down some expectation

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Speaker 4: around usage, but also it serves as an excellent conversation

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Speaker 4: started to talk about how that technology might be used,

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Speaker 4: and then also to demonstrate a commitment to talking up

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Speaker 4: if something isn't going well online. And some of the

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Speaker 4: feedback that we've received over the years about these contracts

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Speaker 4: has been so positive that it's been such a powerful agreement,

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Speaker 4: particularly where there's something to win or lose from both

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Speaker 4: sides of the equation, where the parents themselves also have

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Speaker 4: to make certain commitments that there's ramifications for them as well,

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Speaker 4: So that's available on the Think you Know website, but

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Speaker 4: there's also a lot of information that is age appropriate

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Speaker 4: for parents as well if they just don't know where

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Speaker 4: to start. We sometimes speak to parents and they can

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Speaker 4: get a little bit bogged down in saying that they

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Speaker 4: don't understand the technology, but we don't necessarily think that

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Speaker 4: that's the most critical aspect. We think it's far more

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Speaker 4: important for a parent to say that they at least

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Speaker 4: know what games, app sites, platforms that young person's on,

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Speaker 4: what they like, and what they tend to use, what

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Speaker 4: they gravitate towards, and that the parent will make it really,

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Speaker 4: really clear that the door is always open for communication.

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Speaker 4: We think that's much more important than parents having a

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Speaker 4: really technical understanding of whatever it is that the young

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Speaker 4: person's involved in, So we don't want parents to feel overwhelmed.

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Speaker 4: There are just some really basic things that a parent

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Speaker 4: can do, and in the context of the grooming scenario

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Speaker 4: that we used as the basis of the story, a

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Speaker 4: parent can actually just check whether or not the game

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Speaker 4: or the app that the young child is using does

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Speaker 4: it even have direct message function. This is one of

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Speaker 4: the most basic things that a parent can do to

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Speaker 4: feel more comfortable about the game that that person is playing.

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Speaker 3: Because if they're talking.

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Speaker 4: To people that they don't know in the real world,

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Speaker 4: that that is cause for concern, particularly if they're the

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Speaker 4: younger children, and are they talking about the game, if

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Speaker 4: they are talking about anything, So these are sorts of

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Speaker 4: things that parents can talk about. They can consider disabling

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Speaker 4: the chat if it's not actually essential to the play

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Speaker 4: of the game. But again, if a parent isn't even

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Speaker 4: understanding what their young child is into and what they

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Speaker 4: typically gravitate towards, they don't know about those sorts of

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Speaker 4: really basic security measures that they can take. Privacy settings

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Speaker 4: as well allow you to control who can actually talk

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Speaker 4: to your child. These are again really simple, and there's

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Speaker 4: usually lots of help menus available to explain how those

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Speaker 4: sorts of settings are turned on, and even talking to

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Speaker 4: young people about critical thinking skills as they grow and mature.

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Speaker 4: These are things that are going to serve a young

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Speaker 4: person well through life, and not just in their online.

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Speaker 3: World, but.

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Speaker 4: Just reinforcing the notion that not everybody online is who

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Speaker 4: they say they are, and working out whether or not

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Speaker 4: it's appropriate to share images personal information with people.

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Speaker 3: When they are online.

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Speaker 4: One of the really big red flags for us that

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Speaker 4: we see is that when young people are interacting on

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Speaker 4: an entirely age appropriate game or app or site, that

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Speaker 4: they're being asked to move to a different platform. So

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Speaker 4: again that's a really big red flag for us that

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Speaker 4: a young child should be very wary about. And it's

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Speaker 4: not necessary that the parents have to go into great

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Speaker 4: detail as to why that's something to be wary of,

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Speaker 4: but just that it's not appropriate and that if that

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Speaker 4: were to happen, maybe talk to mom and dad. So

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Speaker 4: there are some really basic things that a parent or

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Speaker 4: care can do in a household setting that don't mean

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Speaker 4: they have to be overwhelmed, and it doesn't mean that

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Speaker 4: they have to know the ins and outs of every

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Speaker 4: game that the young person's playing.

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Speaker 1: I love that advice.

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Speaker 2: You actually answered both of the questions that I was

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Speaker 2: going to ask in that one. But when I hear

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Speaker 2: you describe everything that you've shared there.

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Speaker 1: My summary of it is just start.

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Speaker 2: Just even if you don't know what to say, just say, hey, kid,

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Speaker 2: I need to talk to you about this.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know where to start, but here's what

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Speaker 1: I'm worried about.

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Speaker 2: Here's what I heard on the podcast today, and I

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Speaker 2: just know that I need to keep you safe. So

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Speaker 2: let's have a chat about it. Like that's that's all

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Speaker 2: it takes to get going right.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, And some of the feedback that we've heard from

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Speaker 4: the young people themselves is that the young people actually

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Speaker 4: feel a little bit validated if their interests are something

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Speaker 4: that the parents want to even talk about.

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Speaker 3: So, you know, you may really your eyes make.

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Speaker 4: Glaze over if the kid's going to give you in

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Speaker 4: depth explanation of what they just did in minecraft or

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Speaker 4: roadblocks or whatever it is that they're into.

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Speaker 3: But for a parent to show that level of interest, I.

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Speaker 4: Think from what we see, it just sort of reinforces

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Speaker 4: that a young person is okay to talk about it

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Speaker 4: and that the parents at least have a level of interest.

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Speaker 1: In it so appreciate this conversation.

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Speaker 2: So many parents aren't aware of just how much this

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Speaker 2: can strike at the heart of it's such a terrifying thing,

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Speaker 2: quite frankly, and so many parents just aren't aware that

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Speaker 2: it is as big a deal as it is and

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Speaker 2: that their kids can be and are being approached. Detective

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Speaker 2: Superintendent Jane Crossling from the Australian Senator Counter Child Exploitation

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Speaker 2: or ACE find out more at a triple ce dot

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Speaker 2: gov dot a U and Jane will link to the

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Speaker 2: resource that you've mentioned in our show notes so that

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Speaker 2: parents can get hold of everything that they need to

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Speaker 2: get this going and also if they want to get

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Speaker 2: hold of the book, Jack Changes, the game should be

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Speaker 2: available in your school library. Thanks for chatting with me

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Speaker 2: about this really super important topic.

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Speaker 4: Thanks Justin, and can I just say that the book

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Speaker 4: is also available as a downloadable from the website, so

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Speaker 4: we've had already over ten thousand downloads of the book,

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Speaker 4: so yeah, that might be worth referencing as well.

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Speaker 2: That's one hundred percent worth referencing, and we will also

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Speaker 2: find that link and share that in our show notes

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Speaker 2: as well, so that parents don't even have to go

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Speaker 2: to the school library to get ahold of it. They

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Speaker 2: can just download it and read it on their phone

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Speaker 2: with their kids. Jane, look forward to our next conversation.

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Speaker 2: A delight to be with you.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland for

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Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer and For

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Speaker 2: more information about making your family happier and keeping your

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Speaker 2: kids safe from grooming, check out the show notes to

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Speaker 2: this podcast episode and visit a triple ce dot gov

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Speaker 2: dot a you, orhappy families dot com dot au