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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for.

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Speaker 1: The time poor parent who just once answers, now well

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Speaker 1: missus Happy Families. Kylie still has a sore throat. She

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Speaker 1: can't speak at all. Mother's Day was a very quiet

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Speaker 1: one for all of us. Because of that. I'm feeling

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Speaker 1: so bad for her. But today something really different on

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Speaker 1: the Happy Families Podcast. Normally, on a Monday, we will

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Speaker 1: talk about big parenting issues. Kyli and I bounced the

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Speaker 1: ideas around. On Wednesdays we do interviews. Today though I'm

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Speaker 1: going to do a bit of both. I've got a

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Speaker 1: special guest joining me on the podcast today to talk

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Speaker 1: about a really big parenting issue. Alice is a Sydney mum.

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Speaker 1: She has one child. Freedom Autism and ADHD are the diagnosis,

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Speaker 1: and Alice joins me now to talk about her recent

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Speaker 1: appearance on four Corners two weeks ago. Today, Four Corners

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Speaker 1: put together a really really insightful television show about what's

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Speaker 1: known as school can't typically known as school refusal, my

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Speaker 1: preferred term and in the research literature is known as

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Speaker 1: emotion based school avoidance, and so to talk about kids

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Speaker 1: that won't go to school, kids that are refusing to

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Speaker 1: show up kids that just you can't get them out

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Speaker 1: the door. Is a mum who's going through it and

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Speaker 1: has done for some time. Alice, thanks for being here

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Speaker 1: on the Happy Families podcast. It's just a delight to

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Speaker 1: have you here and to have you so willing to

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Speaker 1: talk about something that is so hard and so surrounded

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Speaker 1: by so much judgment. Really good to have you here.

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Speaker 3: Thanks, Justin. And you're exactly right about the judgment. It's

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Speaker 3: been judgment since day one. People tend to assume it's

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Speaker 3: just that you're a soft parent, and you know, you

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Speaker 3: just need to crack down in your kids and make

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Speaker 3: them go to school, which you know I did for

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Speaker 3: a while. It was literally dragging my child into the

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Speaker 3: classroom and having the teacher restrain her in the classroom

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Speaker 3: and shut the door and lock the door. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: not surprisingly, that didn't actually work.

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Speaker 1: If we went right back to the very beginning, when

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Speaker 1: did this start and how old is Freda.

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Speaker 3: Nout Frida's now ate just about to turn nine. This

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Speaker 3: happened when she was in her first year of school,

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Speaker 3: so kindergarten or prep, depending on where you are. Even

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Speaker 3: on day one, she had a bit of trouble going

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Speaker 3: in which is not that surprising. But as time wore on,

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Speaker 3: it became harder and harder for her. The goodbuyers in

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Speaker 3: the morning became more and more challenging, and eventually it

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Speaker 3: got to the point where she would become so distraught

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Speaker 3: that she would sometimes try and run across busy roads.

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Speaker 3: She would climb a tree and stay there for an hour.

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Speaker 3: She would try to scale the school fence, and it

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Speaker 3: became almost impossible. Her being restrained by the teachers actually

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Speaker 3: really traumatized her and actually set us back and made

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Speaker 3: it harder because it felt then like school wasn't a

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Speaker 3: safe place. These were the adults who were meant to

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Speaker 3: be keeping her safe, who were meant to be safe people,

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Speaker 3: and she didn't feel safe with them because they had

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Speaker 3: restrained her and made her even more scared.

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Speaker 1: So potentially impossible question, or maybe one of those obvious questions.

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Speaker 1: It could go either way. But where did it come from?

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Speaker 1: Like day one, it's pretty much as soon as she

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Speaker 1: starts school. I mean, I'm doing the maths here, and

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking this was around around COVID if she's nine

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Speaker 1: years old.

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Speaker 2: Now, yeah, it.

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Speaker 3: Did start before COVID, So I don't actually think that

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Speaker 3: COVID was a factor for her. I know that it

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Speaker 3: has been for a lot of kids, but not so

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Speaker 3: much for her. She's never really been able to articulate

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Speaker 3: what it is. She's always wanted to go to school.

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Speaker 3: She really likes it when she's there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really interesting, isn't it. I really want to

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Speaker 1: be there. But tell me that I've got to go

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Speaker 1: and I fall apart.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So she says, you know, I really want

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Speaker 3: to be there, I just don't know how. And you know,

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Speaker 3: you sort of ask is it because of this? Is

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Speaker 3: it because of that? You know, you kind of let

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Speaker 3: her talk for a while, and she still can't put

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Speaker 3: a description to it. One thing that I've observed at

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Speaker 3: school is that they're quite intense places, right you know,

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Speaker 3: you get into the playground at the start of the day,

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Speaker 3: it's noisy, it's busy people running around everywhere, and then

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Speaker 3: the bell rings and then there's more noise and more

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Speaker 3: business to line up, get into the classroom, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: And then there's all of these transitions throughout the day,

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Speaker 3: which is something that a lot of autistic kids. Frind

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Speaker 3: challenging and Freda certainly does and sometimes unknown. So you

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Speaker 3: don't know, you know, there's last minute changes or you

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Speaker 3: don't have a good idea of what's happening that day,

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Speaker 3: and just the sensory overwhelmed throughout the day, the noise,

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Speaker 3: the business, the lights. They're having to sit still is

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Speaker 3: pretty it's pretty intense for neurodivergent kid. So I think

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Speaker 3: that that certainly is a factor in it. You know,

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Speaker 3: for her, certainly, the trauma of being restrained at school

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Speaker 3: was a big one.

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Speaker 2: And I know.

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Speaker 3: Certainly now that one of the reasons why she finds

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Speaker 3: it hard to go when I take her is that

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Speaker 3: she most of those instances of restraint actually happened when

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Speaker 3: I was dropping her off rather than her father, and

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Speaker 3: so she sort of has links that to me a

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Speaker 3: little bit, not that it was my fault or anything

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Speaker 3: like that, but that it occurred then. So there's a

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Speaker 3: kind of an association.

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Speaker 1: I suppose, Alice, you have a reasonably flexible work life.

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Speaker 1: You've got a little bit of autonomy in when you work,

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Speaker 1: where you work, and how you work, which certainly is

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Speaker 1: to your advantage. What would you be doing if you

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Speaker 1: were a typical parent with a standard nine to five

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Speaker 1: and you've just got to show up at work. How

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Speaker 1: did you get around this?

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Speaker 2: I do not know. Honestly, I do not know.

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Speaker 3: I don't know how anybody can manage that unless they literally,

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Speaker 3: you know, had their child restrained every morning. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 2: And that's assuming you can.

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Speaker 3: Get them out the door and into the car again

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Speaker 3: without physically dragging them into that, which is, you know,

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Speaker 3: terrible for your relationship and obviously for their mental health.

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Speaker 2: So I don't I really don't know.

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Speaker 3: I'm very very fortunate to be able to work from

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Speaker 3: home and to have very understanding manager and head of

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Speaker 3: department who just trust me to just get my job done,

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Speaker 3: you know when and how I can.

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Speaker 1: Watching you on the show, I can imagine that there

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Speaker 1: would have been some blowback. People would have been saying,

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Speaker 1: oh this soft parenting, Look at how soft and gentle like.

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Speaker 1: This kid just needs boundaries. You've already described that, you've

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Speaker 1: gone through the forceful I'm taking you. You will be restrained,

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Speaker 1: you're staying, we're locking the door. That didn't work, no doubt.

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Speaker 1: You've had psychological intervention, You've had experts trying to guide

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Speaker 1: you in this process. Clearly nothing is working at this point.

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Speaker 1: What has been the most useful the most effective, the

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Speaker 1: most successful process for you in getting free to school.

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Speaker 3: To be honest, moving schools was a big factor. She

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Speaker 3: had trauma around that particular school. They were not at

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Speaker 3: all helpful in terms of disability support, and in fact,

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Speaker 3: they again blamed it directly on parenting. In fact, her

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Speaker 3: first learning plan included a point that their parents were

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Speaker 3: to do a parenting course instead of them talking about

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Speaker 3: their disability adjustments they were going to make. So it was,

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Speaker 3: you know, even the principal restrained her at one point,

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Speaker 3: which you know they're not allowed to.

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Speaker 2: Do at all. But so we moved her to a

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Speaker 2: new school. We were really lucky.

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Speaker 3: It's just such a lucky dip with public schools as

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Speaker 3: to the one that's in your area and how good

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Speaker 3: they are or not. Up the road from where I live,

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Speaker 3: there's another school that is fantastic with autistic kids, but

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Speaker 3: we're not in the couchment for that. So fortunately her

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Speaker 3: dad moved in the couchment for this other school and

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Speaker 3: they have supported us from day one. Day one, she

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Speaker 3: had a learning support person with her. Her teacher was

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Speaker 3: really open to trying new things, and Freda's very very

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Speaker 3: good at masking, and so people often don't see They're like, oh,

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Speaker 3: she's finding class. But her teacher could see through that

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Speaker 3: and knew when she was having a bit of a

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Speaker 3: hard time, so she'd go and suggest, you know, do

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Speaker 3: you want to go and get a drink? Do you

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Speaker 3: want to go for a walk. She even set up

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Speaker 3: on her desk, for instance, three little pictures and Freda

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Speaker 3: could walk up point to one of them, and the

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Speaker 3: teacher knew that that meant she just wants to needs

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Speaker 3: to go outside for a minute, just to help her

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Speaker 3: sort of to calm her nervous system down. They have

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Speaker 3: been so wonderful. She had a bit of fear around

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Speaker 3: going to the library, for instance, so they said that's okay,

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Speaker 3: we'll just take library completely off the table for now.

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Speaker 3: She would stay and do some drawing with one of

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Speaker 3: the learning support officers, and eventually they introduced that the

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Speaker 3: learning support person would choose a few books for her.

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Speaker 3: They'd look on the catalog together and she'd choose it

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Speaker 3: for a few books for her. Then Frieda. It was

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Speaker 3: all led by Frida. Frida then said I'm ready to

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Speaker 3: go to the library, so she would go and she

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Speaker 3: would sit there, didn't borrow any books. I didn't put

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Speaker 3: that pressure on, and then eventually it got to the

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Speaker 3: point where she, you know, is good to borrow books.

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Speaker 3: And that really personal and compassionate approach and also an

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Speaker 3: approach that understands how kids work was the thing that

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Speaker 3: made the difference. So with Frida, the second that I

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Speaker 3: put any pressure on in terms of going to school,

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Speaker 3: in terms of going into the classroom, her nervous system

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Speaker 3: at that point is already so fired up. She's already

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Speaker 3: in fital flight, and you put that extra pressure on

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Speaker 3: and it just pushes it like completely, you know, off

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Speaker 3: the scale. So I know that for me, I have

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Speaker 3: to calm my own nervous system and let her do

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Speaker 3: it in her time and tell me when she's ready.

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Speaker 3: And that might sound like self parenting, to me, that

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Speaker 3: sounds like working with the kid you have, working with

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Speaker 3: what works for their brains.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Alice, thanks for being here on the Happy

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Speaker 1: Families podcast. Have you ever thought about homeschool? Sorry, dumb question.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you've thought about homeschool a lot of times,

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Speaker 1: but you've persisted with regular school. Why have you stayed

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Speaker 1: with keeping her enrolled and trying to get her to

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Speaker 1: go to school?

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Speaker 3: So, first of all, it's because she loves school and

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Speaker 3: she wants to be there first and foremost. She has

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Speaker 3: a great group of friends. She's always always gotten on

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Speaker 3: very well with other kids and made friends easily. She's

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Speaker 3: going fifty percent of the time at the moment, which is,

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Speaker 3: you know, a fast improvement on the I think it

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Speaker 3: was fifteen percent one term that she has.

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Speaker 2: So there's that factor.

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Speaker 3: There's also finances life. I cannot afford to stop working.

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Speaker 3: I live in It's expensive, and her father works in

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Speaker 3: a job where he needs to be on site every

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Speaker 3: single day, so he wouldn't be able to do any

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Speaker 3: of that, so it would fall entirely to me, and

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Speaker 3: financially it's not sustainable. But also in terms of mental health,

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Speaker 3: you know, that's an enormous load for one person to bear,

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Speaker 3: and it's not That's not how we meant to live,

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Speaker 3: you know, isolated in our homes, teaching our kids. I

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Speaker 3: know the people who do home school very successfully, and

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Speaker 3: I know that that can be done, but at this

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Speaker 3: point in my life, I don't feel like that's a

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Speaker 3: feasible or sustainable option for us.

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Speaker 1: We had a couple of kids who were really struggling

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Speaker 1: with school, and one who was just not fitting in

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Speaker 1: that we weren't dealing with school refusal at a pathological level,

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Speaker 1: although there was definitely a thing we're having the kids

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Speaker 1: at home too many days, But it was really a

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Speaker 1: question of this child does not fit in school. The

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Speaker 1: school curriculum, the school requirements, the school parameters, boundaries, frameworks,

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Speaker 1: they just don't work for this particular child. It's been

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Speaker 1: we did a complete nothing term at the end of

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Speaker 1: last year. Term one. This year was really really hard.

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Speaker 1: Term two, it seems like it's finally coming together for

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Speaker 1: this particular child and we're starting to really enjoy having

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Speaker 1: her around. But I'll tell you what the impact that

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Speaker 1: it has on your life. It is, like you said,

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Speaker 1: it's full time, Like there's no capacity, there's no room,

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Speaker 1: there's no space for anything except hardcore. Let's go, We've

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Speaker 1: got to get some school work done. And then there

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Speaker 1: are still challenges, like it is so hard, such a

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Speaker 1: hard thing to be a homeschool parent.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it really really is.

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Speaker 3: I have so much admiration for people who do it

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Speaker 3: and bring that energy and creativity and you know, just dedication.

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Speaker 3: I have so much admiration for people who do that.

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Speaker 1: Ye hardest thing hardest thing is just keeping away from screen.

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Speaker 1: So we've had an institute really full on screen limits

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Speaker 1: to make sure that the work gets done, because otherwise

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Speaker 1: the kids will just sit there and do it all day. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: let me ask you, in your experience with this, and

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Speaker 1: clearly you've been doing this for several years now, what

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Speaker 1: advice would you give to parents who are just struggling

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Speaker 1: with kids that won't get ready, won't get out the door,

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Speaker 1: won't go and get stuck in and make school work.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I don't really have a good answer to that,

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Speaker 3: because I'm still figuring it out myself. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: think I would say, first and foremost, trust your instincts.

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Speaker 3: Don't listen to the world that is telling you you're

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Speaker 3: a bad parent, because every single parent I know whose

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Speaker 3: child is struggling to attend school are some of the

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Speaker 3: most engaged, passionate parents I have ever met. It's not

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Speaker 3: about neglect. It's not about being lazy, by any stretch

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Speaker 3: of imagination. Fact quite the opposite. But I would say,

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Speaker 3: you know, try and dig a bit deeper to find

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Speaker 3: out what's going on, why it's happening. If you can,

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Speaker 3: if your child's able to articulate that, and the biggest

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Speaker 3: thing for me has been joining the school Can't Facebook group,

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Speaker 3: just knowing that you're not alone, talking to other people

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Speaker 3: about things that have worked for them and things that haven't,

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Speaker 3: and advocating for your child at school as much as

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Speaker 3: you as much as you can, because I mean, I

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Speaker 3: think my experience with Frida's first school was quite negative,

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Speaker 3: and I hope that that's not the case for everyone.

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Speaker 3: But we had to push really really hard for even

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Speaker 3: quite quite basic accommodations that should have been provided under

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Speaker 3: the Department of Own policies, you know. But yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 3: if you have any answers to that, I would love

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Speaker 3: to hear them, to be honest.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I don't know that we've got really great

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Speaker 1: research around this. It's such an underresearched area. It's very

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Speaker 1: hard to get research on this, especially from a prospective

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Speaker 1: point of view, because you don't really know that a

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Speaker 1: school a child is going to have an emotion based

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Speaker 1: school avoidance response until you're sort of two weeks, three weeks,

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Speaker 1: four weeks in and then you suddenly go, oh, we've

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Speaker 1: really got a problem here. So it's hard to get

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Speaker 1: in prospectively before the problem and get that data. We're

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Speaker 1: going to be talking about it a fair on the

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Speaker 1: podcast over the next little while. But basically, I think

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Speaker 1: Alice and our experience has been this and yours likewise,

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Speaker 1: having really concerted, empathic conversations with the school, making sure

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Speaker 1: that you can be on the same page and that

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Speaker 1: there's good alignment, and making sure that you're advocating, as

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Speaker 1: you said, for your child. I love that you moved

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Speaker 1: your child's school. It's horrible, it's frustrating. You shouldn't have

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Speaker 1: to do that, but I love that you were courageous

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Speaker 1: enough to do it when you realize that the school

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Speaker 1: that you were attending, or that she was attending or

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Speaker 1: not attending, as these might be, was not working. I

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Speaker 1: still think things like the kids being invited to be helpers,

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Speaker 1: making sure that they've got great relationships with other kids,

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Speaker 1: and of course that's hard when you've got kids with

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Speaker 1: all these additional needs, they tend not to have have

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Speaker 1: strong relationships.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean it depends. Like I have found.

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Speaker 3: You know, there is that stereotype of autistic kids not

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Speaker 3: having great social skills, but I find that that Frida,

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Speaker 3: a lot of her friends are neurodivergent and there's great

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Speaker 3: social skills with it. They just get each other. It's

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Speaker 3: because their brains are similar and they give each other

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Speaker 3: space for their differences, and you know, they can find friends.

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Speaker 3: But I understand too that is challenging for.

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Speaker 2: Some other kids.

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Speaker 3: It's not the case in freeda situation, but yeah, that

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Speaker 3: is hard, and I guess building that bond with school

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Speaker 3: can help and certainly does help engage some kids who

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Speaker 3: are having some challenges. Like you said earlier about one

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Speaker 3: of your children, that I think schools are just not

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Speaker 3: suited to some kids' brains. You know, the schools work

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Speaker 3: for a really certain type of kids, and that's great,

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Speaker 3: but there are a lot of brains that don't fit

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Speaker 3: into that, you know, not just not just kids with disabilities,

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Speaker 3: kids who you know, might learn in a more hands

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Speaker 3: on way or learn by doing different things.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's one.

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Speaker 3: Of the challenges too, Like most schools are kind of

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Speaker 3: set up in the same way they were, things in

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Speaker 3: a similar way, and it doesn't allow for us being different.

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Speaker 3: And that's no shade on teachers at all. They do

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Speaker 3: an unbelievable job, but you know, when they're in classroom

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Speaker 3: with twenty five to thirty kids, how do you accommodate

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Speaker 3: these different ways of learning?

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Speaker 2: You kind of have to take a broad approach. I

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Speaker 2: suppose to.

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Speaker 3: Try and capture as many as you can, but that's

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Speaker 3: not going to fit for all children. And that's a

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Speaker 3: real shame because I think, you know, some kids get

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Speaker 3: through school, they struggle through school, and they end up

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Speaker 3: coming out and feeling like they're you know, like they're

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Speaker 3: a bit stupid, or like something's wrong with them. And

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Speaker 3: those kids could have been could have done amazing things

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Speaker 3: had they been able to learn in a way that

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Speaker 3: works for them, you know, And so I think the

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Speaker 3: world misses out in a way.

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Speaker 2: Is that kind of what you've found with your child

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Speaker 2: who struggled with school? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Not just us. We asked the question on back on

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Speaker 1: Saturday the third Back on Saturday the third of May,

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Speaker 1: we said, is it just me? Or am I the

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Speaker 1: only one who can't get their kids to go to school?

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Speaker 1: And the number of responses it was just enormous. At

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Speaker 1: the end of this month, we're going to get a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of listener responses. But people pretty much said,

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Speaker 1: that's why we went to homeschooling. A whole lot of

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Speaker 1: people pointed back to the Four Corners episode and one

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Speaker 1: person said, they just drag them kicking and screaming. Advice

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Speaker 1: given by most is damaging children care givers beyond measures.

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Speaker 1: There are a whole lot of people who just said,

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Speaker 1: when you've got kids that are refusing to attend school

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Speaker 1: or who are struggling so much to be there, even

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Speaker 1: if you do get them, they're not mentally present enough

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Speaker 1: to learn.

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Speaker 3: Exactly if their system is in fight or flight mode.

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Speaker 3: Their rational brain is off line. They're not taking anything in, right,

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Speaker 3: So it's you know, they're going to be present as

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Speaker 3: a body, but their brains are not online, right, They're

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Speaker 3: not taking anything in and that's so it's kind of

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Speaker 3: pointless doing that, pushing them when they're in that state.

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Speaker 2: Anyway.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and one person said this, and this is what

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Speaker 1: we did when when our kids were at school, or

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Speaker 1: when our youngest was at school, we had this approach

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Speaker 1: where rather than fighting in the morning, because because Kylie

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Speaker 1: is at home as a full time caregiver for the kids,

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Speaker 1: Kylie basically just said, all right, the morning will be

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Speaker 1: what it will be, and by taking the pressure off,

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Speaker 1: the kids would get out of bed they would get

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Speaker 1: themselves organized and they would eventually get to school, sometimes

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Speaker 1: on time, sometimes an hour late, sometimes two hours late.

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Speaker 1: But when they were moving themselves through the morning the

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Speaker 1: right way, it just it made a huge difference and

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and probably to you as well, right, Oh, once

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Speaker 3: you drop that, everybody is calmer. And that's what I

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Speaker 3: found I had to do with Freda as well. In

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Speaker 3: the mornings. You just kind of drop your expectationtions of

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Speaker 3: what it's going to be, and you know you.

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Speaker 2: Can go through.

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Speaker 3: You can have exactly the same outcome whether you're you know, pushing,

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Speaker 3: pushing or not pushing, but you know one way is

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Speaker 3: going to make you, yeah, have fewer gray hairs, and

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Speaker 3: you know, keep your relationship with your kids positive.

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Speaker 1: I think, well, Alice, I've really enjoyed the conversation. I'm

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Speaker 1: really grateful for it. There are no easy answers. That's

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Speaker 1: a really, really big difficult thing. We're going to link

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Speaker 1: to the Australian School Can't Facebook page in the show

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Speaker 1: notes as well as the Facebook page where we've asked

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Speaker 1: the question is it just me, so more people can

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Speaker 1: join the conversation and participate. Good luck. I'm hopeful that

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Speaker 1: over the next little while you see progress. Do you

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Speaker 1: think that Freda will get back to school in a

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Speaker 1: full time capacity anytime soon?

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Speaker 3: I am not sure. It's sort of a take it

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Speaker 3: day by day, yeah situation. You know, when you have

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Speaker 3: a positive day, you know, her dad said so many times, Oh,

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Speaker 3: I think she's turning a corner, and I'm like, don't

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Speaker 3: say that.

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Speaker 1: And today's she turns another corner and starts heading home

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Speaker 1: again exactly.

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Speaker 3: So it's you know, one good day is one good day,

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Speaker 3: and I think you just you take it like that.

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Speaker 3: I am not sure, honestly, I am not sure, but

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Speaker 3: I think she's in a far better place to be successful.

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Speaker 2: At returning to school full.

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Speaker 3: Time than she was previously, and that's the biggest difference.

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Speaker 1: Well, thanks for chatting with me and thanks for speaking up.

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Speaker 1: Really appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. Justin I'm really looking forward to hearing this podcast.

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Speaker 1: That's Alice is a mum to Freda based in Sydney

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Speaker 1: and dealing with the challenges around school refusal or motion

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Speaker 1: based school avoidance. Look no easy answers, but we are

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Speaker 1: going to continue to talk about this on the podcast

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Speaker 1: over the next little while and see if we can

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Speaker 1: be as helpful as we can, try and get hold

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Speaker 1: of some experts some guidance. The Happy Family podcast is

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Speaker 1: produced by Justin Rowland for Bridge Media. Craig Bruce, our

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Speaker 1: executive producer. For more info about how you can guide

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Speaker 1: your children successfully, regardless of whether they're attending school happily

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Speaker 1: or not attending school at all, visit us at happy

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Speaker 1: families dot com Today no