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Speaker 1: We know that the Northern Territory Police are investigating a

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Speaker 1: second death in custody following the passing of a sixty

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Speaker 1: eight year old man in Royal Darwin Hospital. The man's

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Speaker 1: been taken into He had been taken into protective custody

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Speaker 1: by the AFP officers and was initially conveyed to the

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Speaker 1: Palmerston Watchhouse now before being admitted and whilst still in

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Speaker 1: AFP custody. So before being admitted to the hospital, the

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Speaker 1: custody sergeant and nurse had assised that the mail well,

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Speaker 1: it was deemed necessary to convey him to Royal Darwin

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Speaker 1: Hospital sorry so before he was admitted to the watchhouse Now.

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Speaker 1: Upon arrival at Royal Darwin Hospital, AFP members noticed that

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Speaker 1: the man had lost consciousness. Medical staff were alerted who

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Speaker 1: immediately commenced CPR. Resuscitation efforts were successful and he was

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Speaker 1: transferred to the Intensive Key Unit in a stable condition.

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Speaker 1: On Saturday, that man passed away in ICU and the

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Speaker 1: cause of the man's death remains undertermined pending a post mortem.

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Speaker 1: His death is the second death in custody in twelve

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Speaker 1: days now. One of Australia's largest aboriginal legal services is

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Speaker 1: calling for an emergency intervention to de escalate tensions in

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Speaker 1: the Northern Territories justice system following the two deaths of

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Speaker 1: these Aboriginal meaning police custody in less than a fortnight.

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Speaker 1: Now joining me in the studio this morning, I have

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Speaker 1: got the acting CEO of NAJA, Anthony Bevan. Good morning

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Speaker 1: to you.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, Katy.

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Speaker 1: Great to have you in the studio. And I've also

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Speaker 1: got naja's chair Theresa Row, Good morning to you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Good morning Katie, and good morning to your listeners.

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Speaker 1: It's really good to have you both in the studio.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate your time this morning. Now, why are you

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Speaker 1: calling for the federal government to step in, Katie?

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Speaker 2: Just before we get into that, NAJA, the staff and

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Speaker 2: the directors, we just want to pass our condolences on

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Speaker 2: to the what Air community and the family of ten.

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Speaker 2: He was an extremely important leader within the what Air community,

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Speaker 2: highly respected, had done enormous amount of work in the

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Speaker 2: education sector in what Air, had represented that community in

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Speaker 2: a very positive way. And it's a really tragic loss

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Speaker 2: and we just want to pass on our heartfelt condolences

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Speaker 2: and prayers to the people of what Air and Tien's family.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's an important thing to do. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean a lot of people hurting at the moment,

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Speaker 1: I would imagine, yeah.

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Speaker 3: And likewise for the family and loved ones at Yindamu

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Speaker 3: for a young woldpri man who passed away, So our

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Speaker 3: thoughts and prayers go out to them too.

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Speaker 1: So following these two tragic situations, I know that Naja

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Speaker 1: is indeed looking for some federal intervention in some way. Anthony,

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Speaker 1: what do you want to see from the federal government

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Speaker 1: at this point?

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Speaker 2: So, just to take a step back, Katie, where we

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Speaker 2: find ourselves at the moment is that from twenty nineteen

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Speaker 2: to twenty twenty four, before the current government was elected,

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Speaker 2: we saw the incarceration rate of Aboriginal people in the

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Speaker 2: Northern Territory increase by forty percent. Now we've all seen

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Speaker 2: those stats. Since the government was elected last year, we

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Speaker 2: know that a further five hundred Aboriginal people have been

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Speaker 2: locked up and are incarcerated. So we're heading in the

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Speaker 2: wrong direction in terms of our closing the gap targets

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Speaker 2: of reducing incarceration rates. And why we need to reduce

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Speaker 2: incarceration rates is because we all know the statistics, the

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Speaker 2: data The research shows that the best place for people

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Speaker 2: to be rehabilitated and diverted into into other activities and

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Speaker 2: improvements in their life is not in jail. It's working

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Speaker 2: in community. It's being employed, being part of the community.

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Speaker 2: So we've seen incarceration rates go up. Now, last Tuesday,

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Speaker 2: the Chief Minister was on radio and she indicated that

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Speaker 2: crime rates have actually increased since the government was elected.

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Speaker 2: So we're seeing crime rates going up, and we're told

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Speaker 2: that incarcerating more Aboriginal people is going to be the

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Speaker 2: solution to reducing crime rates. So it hasn't worked. The

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Speaker 2: Chief Minister said, well, let's give it more time. It's

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Speaker 2: been eight months already crime has gone up, not down,

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Speaker 2: and yet we're seeing five hundred more Aboriginal Territorians incarcerated.

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Speaker 2: It's just not the answer. We need to find another solution.

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Speaker 1: Look, there are a lot of victims of crime who

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Speaker 1: listen to this show. Some of them really seriously impacted

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Speaker 1: by violent crime. Some of them seriously impacted, you know,

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Speaker 1: people breaking into their homes or stealing their property, and

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Speaker 1: they were very frustrated by the former government's approach when

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Speaker 1: it came to crime. What do you say to listeners,

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Speaker 1: some of whom are really fed up with what they

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Speaker 1: see as a victimization of people who are committing crimes

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Speaker 1: rather than them being treated as the victims when they've

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Speaker 1: been on the receiving end.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, Katie, everyone deserves to feel safe in their home.

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Speaker 2: Everyone deserves to be able to walk down the streets

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Speaker 2: or go to the shopping center, or go to a

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Speaker 2: footy game without being subjected to crime. And right across

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Speaker 2: the territory, whether you live in a remote community, you

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Speaker 2: live in Darwin or Alla Springs, everyone wants to feel

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Speaker 2: safe in their homes. And NAJOR fully supports the work

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Speaker 2: that the police do. They do a very difficult job.

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Speaker 2: But you know, what we've heard from the police union,

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Speaker 2: what we're hearing from communities, what you're hearing from NARJA,

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Speaker 2: is that the current approach is not working. The police

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Speaker 2: last year indicated that there was going to be deaths

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Speaker 2: in custody as a result of the pressure on their members.

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Speaker 2: So the police are saying this isn't the right approach.

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Speaker 2: Incarcerating people at record numbers is not the right approach.

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Speaker 2: We know from naga's perspective working with people that are

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Speaker 2: before the justice system, we know that the current approach

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Speaker 2: is not working. So we fully support the work that

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Speaker 2: the police do in keeping our community safe. That's paramount.

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Speaker 2: That's got to be the number one thing. But if

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Speaker 2: we want to feel safer, locking people up in record

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Speaker 2: numbers is not the solution. We've seen crime increase. If

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Speaker 2: it was the solution, we would see crime decrease after

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Speaker 2: eight months. So there's a better way of doing it.

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Speaker 2: And enough is enough. We've had had a young man

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Speaker 2: killed for stealing allegedly stealing a chocolate bar. We've had

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Speaker 2: an elderly, highly respected Aboriginal leader pass away for having

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Speaker 2: too many beers at the airports. That's not the way

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Speaker 2: to keep people safe. It's not the way to keep

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Speaker 2: people safe.

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Speaker 1: So where too from here? I mean, what do you

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Speaker 1: think what are the calls from Nuja right now in

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Speaker 1: terms of the next steps therese.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we were calling for a forum. We're written to

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Speaker 3: the Chief Minister, mister Flocquiaro, asking if she can meet

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Speaker 3: with us, with the police, the Attorney Generals, Corrections and

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Speaker 3: Abriginal leaders because we know there's a crisis and the

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Speaker 3: justice system, you know, so it's you know, the courts

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Speaker 3: and you know the whole prisons. It's just just not adequate.

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Speaker 3: So we've written to her. We're hoping to hear back

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Speaker 3: from her pretty soon. Come together, let's look at some

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Speaker 3: better solutions than we've got at the moment in you know,

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Speaker 3: locking people up. You know, we know that locking people

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Speaker 3: ups not the answer. As Anthony mentioned, you know, I

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Speaker 3: believe there's just been a lack of investment in the

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Speaker 3: bush and there are particularly remote communities and housing, education,

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Speaker 3: a lot of our people living in poverty, a lot

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Speaker 3: of the young people don't have a job to wake

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Speaker 3: up to in the morning. You know. People need hope,

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Speaker 3: you know, and aspirations. And I just feel that, you know,

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Speaker 3: not only this government, previous governments have neglected Aboriginal people

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Speaker 3: across the board in nordern Territory.

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Speaker 1: So what would a forum look like? Who would you

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Speaker 1: want to attend? I mean, is it a situation where

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Speaker 1: you're wanting the federal government and the Northern Territory government

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Speaker 1: there alongside indigenous leaders. How would this all look?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely? So, the forum we're looking at is we need

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Speaker 2: to find a new way of doing this rather than disincarceration.

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Speaker 2: Incarcerat it hasn't worked. So what we're calling for is

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Speaker 2: and why we've written to the Chief Minister is let's

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Speaker 2: sit down with the Chief Manu, with the Comwealth and,

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Speaker 2: as Teresa said, with Aboriginal leaders, and let's find a solution.

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Speaker 2: So it's not about reducing safety in communities. We want

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Speaker 2: communities to be safer and there is a better way

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Speaker 2: of doing it. Let's find that way. Let's reduce the

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Speaker 2: pressures on the justice system, Let's reduce the pressures on

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Speaker 2: corrections and police, and let's find a way that gets

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Speaker 2: us to having not so many territorians locked up, having

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Speaker 2: the community safer. Because this one track approach of just

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Speaker 2: lock people up, lock people up, lock people up has

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Speaker 2: not worked. Crime has increased. So we want to sit

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Speaker 2: down and talk about it now. The problem we've found

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Speaker 2: in the last eight months is there's the government has

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Speaker 2: just reacted. So legislation last year in September was pushed

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Speaker 2: through with forty eight hours notice after the tragic circumstances

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Speaker 2: in Nightcliff, we saw legislation push through in five days,

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Speaker 2: with members of Parliament giving ten minutes to review new legislation.

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Speaker 2: Instead of reacting in that way, let's sit down, talk

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Speaker 2: about things, work through, things come up with solution that's

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Speaker 2: going to work.

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Speaker 1: How do we I mean, Like, the thing that I

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Speaker 1: really feel, and I know from you know, doing this

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Speaker 1: show every single day, is you know, like I said,

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Speaker 1: I speak to victims of crime who've been who have

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Speaker 1: been involved in some of the most terrible, tragic situations.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: I had Auntie Billa Warra Lee come on the show

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Speaker 1: and speak to me following the tragic death of Linford

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Speaker 1: Fire and say to me, Katie, you know I don't

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Speaker 1: feel safe on the streets like I once did. So

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Speaker 1: I mean, the situation that we're in at the moment

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Speaker 1: is we have some people that are unfortunately committing some

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Speaker 1: really serious violent offending and the community has this sense

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Speaker 1: that they would rather them in jail and off the

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Speaker 1: street then putting their lives in danger. So I mean,

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Speaker 1: what do you say to those listening this morning that

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Speaker 1: are really feeling that way?

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Speaker 2: So, Katie, you know, as I said at the beginning,

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Speaker 2: the first priority is everyone needs to be safe at

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Speaker 2: home and walking the street, going to footy games. That's paramount.

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Speaker 2: So if someone has committed a violent crime, yes they

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Speaker 2: should be punished. We've got a justice system set up

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Speaker 2: to do that. But what we're seeing is a lot

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Speaker 2: of Aboriginal people are being taken through the justice system

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Speaker 2: and being incarcerated and they may have just made a

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Speaker 2: small mistake, they may have done the wrong thing. Now

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Speaker 2: they're being locked up for on average six seven months,

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Speaker 2: and they're in there with those violent criminals. Now do

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Speaker 2: you think when they come out they're going to be

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Speaker 2: better people or worse people? So what we're saying is, yes,

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Speaker 2: if you've committed a violent crime, if you're making your

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Speaker 2: community unsafe, yes, a jail is definitely an option that's

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Speaker 2: supported right across territory. But putting people who shouldn't be

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Speaker 2: in jail in with violent criminals is not going to

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Speaker 2: put them out on the street after six or seven

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Speaker 2: months as model citizens. It's not the place where they

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Speaker 2: deserve to be. And you know, Katie, if I just

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Speaker 2: take a step back, what we're seeing is fifty percent

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Speaker 2: of people that are in territory jails at this moment

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Speaker 2: today have not been convicted of an offense. So they're

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Speaker 2: on remand they're on remand they're not eligible for rehabilitation

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Speaker 2: or diversion programs, and they're sitting for small matters on

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Speaker 2: average three months in remand if it's a more serious

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Speaker 2: matter in the Supreme Court, three hundred and fifty one

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Speaker 2: days without being convicted. They're being placed without rehabilitation or

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Speaker 2: diversionary programs with violent criminals in jails right across. How

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Speaker 2: is that making our community safe?

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Speaker 1: Do you think we need a remand center?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely? One of the things we'd be putting on the

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Speaker 2: table at this forum is we need a remand center

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Speaker 2: rather than locking people who may have committed a minor

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Speaker 2: offense that may not even see them being sentenced to

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Speaker 2: a period of imprisonment, putting them in with violent criminals.

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Speaker 2: We do need a remand center. But more importantly, why

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Speaker 2: are people waiting on average three hundred and fifty one

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Speaker 2: days on average for their matter to come before the

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court. We need to reduce those romand times. And

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Speaker 2: more importantly, if people are being held on remand, why

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Speaker 2: aren't they having access to rehabilitation and diversion programs. It's

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Speaker 2: just not the right approach.

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Speaker 1: YEA, Look, I actually I think that's something that is

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Speaker 1: really important. We did actually ask the Corrections Minister about

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Speaker 1: this on the show yesterday. Where the people that are

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Speaker 1: in remand do have access to programs. He said that

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Speaker 1: in some cases it could be voluntarily that they could

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Speaker 1: do a program. But is that actually the case, Katie.

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Speaker 2: The people that we speak to that are on remand,

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Speaker 2: our clients are saying that they're in jail waiting on remand,

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Speaker 2: and the common question is, no one has even come

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Speaker 2: and approached me. No one has approached me. I'm in

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Speaker 2: here for domestic violence, I'm in here for alcohol abuse

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Speaker 2: that led to a crime. No one has approached me

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Speaker 2: with a DV program or an alcohol rehabilitation program. And

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Speaker 2: the response is I'm not eligible because I'm on remand.

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Speaker 1: And they're in there though, on average, three hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty one Supreme Court matter, the Supreme Court matters. What

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Speaker 1: about in the like in the local.

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Speaker 2: Court ninety days? Ninety days, that's on average, that's on average.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look, it does seem as though there

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Speaker 1: needs to be a lot of work across the board.

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Speaker 2: I mean, can I just want one more thing on that, Katie,

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Speaker 2: is that we all know, we've all heard of the

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Speaker 2: presumption of innocence. Now, unfortunately, we hear a lot of

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Speaker 2: commentary that people are in jail have done the wrong

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Speaker 2: thing until the courts have found that they've done the

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Speaker 2: wrong thing. They're entitled the presumption of innocence.

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Speaker 1: So when you look at that, should they then you know,

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Speaker 1: should they actually be doing programs or doing different you know,

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Speaker 1: being involved in different programs if they're presumed innocent, I

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Speaker 1: guess is it like it's a tough juggle then.

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Speaker 2: But if someone has a problem with violence and domestic

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Speaker 2: violence and alcohol abuse or drug abuse, that's the perfect

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Speaker 2: time if they're on ramand to be at least offering

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Speaker 2: those programs to them. They may say no, but making

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Speaker 2: them mandatory, making them voluntary, but having the programs is

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Speaker 2: a start. If you don't have the programs, how are

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Speaker 2: you expecting people to turn their lives around? Sitting in

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Speaker 2: jail for six or seven months waiting for your matter

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Speaker 2: with violent criminals, and when you come out, how are

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Speaker 2: you going to say, I've changed my life. I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to drink alcohol, I'm not going to beat my wife,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to commit a crime.

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Speaker 1: Worry is you're going to become a better offend potentially,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you're not able to commit or you know,

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Speaker 1: complete a program, and if you are around people who

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Speaker 1: have committed serious offenses, So.

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Speaker 2: Just one more thing, sorry, Katie is you know we

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Speaker 2: all here it. Justice delayed is justice denied. So with

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Speaker 2: those remand numbers, we've got to get more resources into

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Speaker 2: the courts where those matters can be heard in a

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Speaker 2: more timely manner. So that means more judges, that means

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Speaker 2: more courts being established. We have a great system of

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Speaker 2: community courts around the territory. We have a great system

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Speaker 2: of bush or circuit courts around the territory. We just

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Speaker 2: need to put more resources into the court system because

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Speaker 2: justice delayed is justice denied. And the longer people sit

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Speaker 2: in jail who are entitled the presumption of innocence if

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Speaker 2: they're found not guilty, and they've spent all that time

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Speaker 2: in jail, they've lost their job. They've probably lost their

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Speaker 2: car because they can't maintain the car payments. They've been

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Speaker 2: kicked out of their house because they haven't been able

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Speaker 2: to pay rent. So they've spent six or seven months

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Speaker 2: in jail, come out without a job, without a car,

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Speaker 2: without a house. What do you think they're going to

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Speaker 2: do well?

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Speaker 1: I also think to myself, what about the victim, you know,

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Speaker 1: who's then waiting for that period of time to have

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Speaker 1: an outcome to that case. It's you know, it is

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Speaker 1: a long time we are going to have to wrap up.

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Speaker 1: I mean where too from here, do you think, Theresa?

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Speaker 3: I think, yeah, that forum is really important, but I

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Speaker 3: think the government need to address particularly with these recent

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Speaker 3: destined custody. You know a lot of Aboriginal people are

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Speaker 3: really fearful of the police now and just probably don't

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Speaker 3: have that much trust in them. I think the Chief

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Speaker 3: Minister needs to stand up and reassure Aboriginal Territory ins

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Speaker 3: that the police are there to serve and protect us,

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Speaker 3: you know, because there's a lot of families not only

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Speaker 3: with these just and custody, but a lot of the

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Speaker 3: I don't know if any Aboriginal family in the Northern

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Speaker 3: Territory doesn't have family that's locked up today, you know,

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Speaker 3: Like it's a really sad case. But yeah, I would

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Speaker 3: just like to see better leadership from our Chief Minister

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Speaker 3: and the new government.

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Speaker 1: Well, I really appreciate you both coming in this morning

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Speaker 1: and having a very extensive discussion with us. As I

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Speaker 1: said to you both offair, I know, you know, not

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Speaker 1: everybody will agree with what you're saying this morning. I

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Speaker 1: think it's really important to hear, you know, from everybody

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Speaker 1: and certainly be hearing across the board and differing opinions

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Speaker 1: in these spaces. So I really appreciate you both joining

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Speaker 1: us on the show this morning.

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Speaker 2: And Anthony yet and just our final point that we

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Speaker 2: started with is the forum is the first step, but

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Speaker 2: you know we need if there's not going to be

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Speaker 2: action by the territory government, we are calling on the

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Speaker 2: federal government for the intervention into the justice system because

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Speaker 2: we need our justice system to work. We want to

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Speaker 2: sit down with the Chief Minister and with Aboriginal leaders

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Speaker 2: and come up with a solution. But if that doesn't

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Speaker 2: occur and we can't get the Chief Minister the table,

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Speaker 2: the only other solution then is to seek that federal intervention.

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Speaker 2: We don't want to go there, but if it's the

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Speaker 2: only way to fix what is a broken justice system,

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Speaker 2: we have to put it on the table.

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Speaker 1: Well, NAJA Chair Theresa Row and Acting CEO Anthony Bevin

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Speaker 1: really appreciate your time this morning. Thank you both very

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Speaker 1: much for joining me in the studio. Thanks Katie, Thank you, Katie,

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Speaker 1: thank you