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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, so, here's the thing.

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Speaker 3: If you don't understand what happened in class, to come

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Speaker 3: home and have to try to work it out without

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Speaker 3: the teacher, that can be overwhelming.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 3: Hello, it's doctor Justin Coulson, the founder of Happy Families

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Speaker 3: dot com dot au.

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Speaker 2: Here with Kylie, my.

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Speaker 3: Wife and mum to our six children and Kylie a

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Speaker 3: big conversation today.

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Speaker 4: What today? Our topic is homework.

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Speaker 3: Homework that I despise, homework that I think children just

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Speaker 3: shouldn't be doing homework that I have very strong opinions about,

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Speaker 3: asking me what I really think?

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Speaker 4: You do have very strong opinions about this, And we

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Speaker 4: did for a.

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Speaker 2: Little bit from time to time. We had our moments

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Speaker 2: on this, haven't we.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So, can you just tell me what is the

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Speaker 4: theory behind giving our kids homework? I mean literally, from

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Speaker 4: the time our kids prep they're coming home with stuff

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Speaker 4: that they have to achieve at home.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So what is that?

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Speaker 4: What's the ideal behind it?

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Speaker 3: Well, this is really interesting because homework has just always

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Speaker 3: been a thing. Well, one day it became a thing

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Speaker 3: at least, and that's kind of what we've always done since.

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Speaker 3: And nobody really researched whether the homework was helpful or

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Speaker 3: not for decades and decades after it started. But the

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Speaker 3: theory is, there's work that you've got to get done,

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Speaker 3: and we want to make sure that we're consolidating learning.

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Speaker 3: So we're going to send it home so the kids

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Speaker 3: can do an extra shift, do some overtime when you

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Speaker 3: get home. Kids, we're not going to pay you for it,

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Speaker 3: but let's get you to do some overtime. And the

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Speaker 3: idea is, let's consolidate the learning. Let's make sure that

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Speaker 3: you're not falling behind in class. It's that kind of thing,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 4: I grew up watching a little house on the prairie

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Speaker 4: and they used to go to school every day. They

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Speaker 4: didn't go home with homework.

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Speaker 2: No, in the olden days they didn't.

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Speaker 3: And then someone obviously had the idea that sometimes if

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Speaker 3: you don't finish your work at school, you need to

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Speaker 3: take it home and finish it.

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Speaker 2: And someone else had an.

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Speaker 3: Idea that we need to make sure that you don't

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Speaker 3: forget the stuff that we taught you. Today, so when

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Speaker 3: you go home, you need to practice it. Repetition is

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Speaker 3: the mother of all learning, which which is true. It's

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Speaker 3: just that there's no really great evidence that we should

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Speaker 3: be taking at home and repeating it at home when

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Speaker 3: we can repeat it at school the next day.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so you know how I feel about the researchy stuff.

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Speaker 4: But you know, just give me a little bit of insight.

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Speaker 4: What does the research actually tell us about homework and

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Speaker 4: our kids well being?

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Speaker 2: How do you feel about the research stuff?

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Speaker 4: Ah, just tell me the real life stuff.

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Speaker 3: Science is the best way for us to know whether

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Speaker 3: stuff is working or not. There's so many things that

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Speaker 3: as a result of science, we know that we otherwise

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Speaker 3: wouldn't all these old wives tales that have been disproven

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Speaker 3: because good science says, you know, if you change this,

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Speaker 3: you actually discover whether or not it's really having an

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Speaker 3: impact on stuff. So I don't think we can go

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Speaker 3: poo pooing science.

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Speaker 4: I'm not poopeeing science. I just have to listen to

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Speaker 4: it every day. Okay, so you're tired of my Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I am tired of your tirades. But there is some

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Speaker 4: important stuff and I do learn lots.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, so when we look at the science around homework,

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Speaker 3: there is well, I don't know how to say it politely,

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Speaker 3: there is not really any strong evidence for really, there's

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Speaker 3: no strong evidence from decades of research that homework on

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Speaker 3: average is good for our kids. In fact, most of

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Speaker 3: the research shows that it has either a neutral or

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Speaker 3: a negative effect. Now I say not really because it's

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Speaker 3: really hard to research this and to do it well.

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Speaker 3: And one of the main reasons is because there's all

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Speaker 3: different kinds of homework, and so for me, it's as

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Speaker 3: much about whether homework is given or not as what

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Speaker 3: kind of homework is given.

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Speaker 2: You see, some activities.

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Speaker 3: Are going to be really really good for our children's

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Speaker 3: learning and for reinforcement and for consolidating, and some activities

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Speaker 3: are just a waste of time. So on average, the

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Speaker 3: scientific research shows and has done now for about thirty years,

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Speaker 3: maybe thirty five years, that homework. Again, I'm saying on average. Oh,

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Speaker 3: and I've got to say another really important thing here,

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Speaker 3: homework on average for children up to around the age

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Speaker 3: of twelve thirteen fourteen. So essentially what I say is

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Speaker 3: primary school has zero benefit, literally zero benefit for the

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Speaker 3: average kid getting the average amount of homework and doing

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Speaker 3: the average sort of stuff for homework. It's a waste

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Speaker 3: of time. There's no evidence to support it. Once the

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Speaker 3: kids are in high school, there is some evidence that

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Speaker 3: up to an hour in the early years and then

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Speaker 3: up to two hours in their later high school years

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Speaker 3: does have an It gives them advantage academically, so it's

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Speaker 3: worth doing it once they're in high school. But for

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Speaker 3: primary school kids just stop.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So can you step me through what it is

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Speaker 4: that you actually are really disgruntled about when it comes

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Speaker 4: to homework. We're talking general terms here, Yeah, what the

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Speaker 4: average school is working with in homework parameters? What is

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Speaker 4: it that really, you know, kind of gets under your skin.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So, first of all, the average school has a

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Speaker 3: directive that's being given by the education department in their state,

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Speaker 3: and I think every state in Australia and every territory

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Speaker 3: in Australia has this that children have to have homework.

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Speaker 3: A couple of years ago, Melbourne ran Victoria ran a

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Speaker 3: parliamentary inquiry into homework and they didn't find any evidence

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Speaker 3: to support the use of homework, at least in primary school.

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Speaker 3: They're still doing it, by the way, they're still giving

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Speaker 3: homework out. But the Parliamentary inquiry couldn't even justify the

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Speaker 3: use of homework with the Education Department say no, no,

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Speaker 3: we've got to keep on making sure that kids are

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Speaker 3: doing homework. There's a handful of rebel principles around Australia

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Speaker 3: that have said we're actually going to follow the evidence

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Speaker 3: and the kids don't have to do it and guess

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Speaker 3: what their kids are doing.

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Speaker 2: Fine, students doing all right.

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Speaker 3: But if I was to list my grievances with homework,

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Speaker 3: what I'll do, Because I'm going to talk for way

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Speaker 3: too long and get too carried away, I'm going to

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Speaker 3: share the first couple, then we'll take a quick break

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Speaker 3: and I'll share the rest of them and talk about

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Speaker 3: what we should do as a result.

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Speaker 2: So here we go.

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Speaker 3: Number one, there's just no evidence to support it, especially

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Speaker 3: in those primary school years, full stop, end of story.

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Speaker 3: If we're going to be science driven, we need to

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Speaker 3: actually look at what the science says, and the science

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Speaker 3: says it's pointless for kids who are in primary school period.

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Speaker 2: So what about their.

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Speaker 4: Parent who's got a child who's really struggling with their mass,

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Speaker 4: for instance, and they decide to hire a tutor to

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Speaker 4: come and Hauttering.

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Speaker 3: There's a different process than homework. Okay, So if I'm

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Speaker 3: going to put my children into a tutoring class, that

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Speaker 3: means that they're going to be doing deliberate practice with

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Speaker 3: a qualified trainer or teacher who is going to guide

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Speaker 3: them and improve them. That's kind of like saying, i

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Speaker 3: want my children to learn the piano, but I'm never

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Speaker 3: going to.

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Speaker 2: Ask them to do any practice.

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Speaker 3: Okay, we need them to have a piano teacher so

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Speaker 3: that teacher can help them to get better. So I've

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Speaker 3: got a child who is falling behind, I decided to

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Speaker 3: put them in tutoring. That's a deliberate form of practice

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Speaker 3: and teaching with a qualified instructor that's going to help them.

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Speaker 3: That's totally different to here's some homework, go home, fill

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Speaker 3: in the homework matrix, you know, fill in the three

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Speaker 3: of the boxes in our grid. Make sure you finish

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Speaker 3: this worksheet. Totally different kind of homework. Let's talk about

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Speaker 3: the other reasons that I'm not a fan of homework.

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Speaker 3: In just a second.

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Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 4: poor parent who just wants answers now, and today we're

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Speaker 4: talking about a really hot button topic, homework.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not sounding happy.

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Speaker 4: You're not happy. So we've already discussed that there is

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Speaker 4: no research to support children under the age of twelve, thirteen,

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Speaker 4: even up to fourteen, actually getting any significant benefits out

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Speaker 4: of doing homework.

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Speaker 3: Any academic benefit at all. In fact, it's neutral, if

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Speaker 3: not negative, on average. Now I've got a handful of

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Speaker 3: other reasons that I'm anti homework. I'm going to run

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Speaker 3: through them pretty quickly.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 3: Number one, it adds to my workload as a parent, definitely,

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Speaker 3: I've got stuff going on.

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Speaker 4: And I know that when you know, I sit around

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Speaker 4: with mums having a coffee, they feel really really stretched

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Speaker 4: by this. Often because I.

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Speaker 3: Talked to some mums and dads who will do a

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Speaker 3: couple of hours of homework with their children after school

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Speaker 3: and after work and the kids are like eight years old.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: And you know else, The reason it takes them two

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Speaker 3: hours is because the parents don't know how to do the.

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Speaker 4: I think that's why you really don't like homework, how

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Speaker 4: to do it.

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Speaker 3: Every time my kids come home with a c I'm like,

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Speaker 3: oh gosh, I don't know how I ever got a PhD.

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Speaker 3: It's really stressful for a lot of kids, like No,

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Speaker 3: I'm fine with children being uncomfortable, and I'm absolutely for

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Speaker 3: children doing things that are hard and pushing themselves.

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Speaker 2: So here's the thing.

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Speaker 3: If you don't understand what happened in class to come

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Speaker 3: home and have to try to work it out without

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Speaker 3: the teacher, that can be overwhelming for the majority of children.

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Speaker 3: And it's not what education is meant to be about.

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Speaker 4: Well, especially when mum and dad try to teach you

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Speaker 4: the archaic way speak.

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Speaker 3: It was different from the eighties, back in the nineties,

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Speaker 3: whatever it was when we were kids. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: was a product of early nineteen eighties primary schooling. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and they do everything differently today than how they did

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Speaker 3: it when I was a kid. So it's not fair

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Speaker 3: for the children. It's also really hard on the parents.

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Speaker 3: But the other thing is, and we've watched this with

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Speaker 3: some of our kids, once they have got it figured

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Speaker 3: out in class, coming home and it's just boring, Like

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Speaker 3: they sit there and they're so bored, and it really

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Speaker 3: extinguishes that flame of curiosity when you're just doing boring stuff.

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Speaker 2: Next thing, it adds to teachers loads.

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Speaker 3: I mean I work in around schools all the time

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Speaker 3: now and I am astounded at how hard teachers work

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Speaker 3: compared to what they were doing back in the eighties.

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Speaker 3: Not that I want to belittle what teachers did back then,

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Speaker 3: but as a comparison, the expectation on teachers today is

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Speaker 3: extraordinary compared to back then. And the last thing that

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Speaker 3: they need to be worried about is whether or not

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Speaker 3: homework got done or whether the dog ate it.

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Speaker 4: And I know that from experience. When we've kind of,

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Speaker 4: you know, shared our views on homework and got a

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Speaker 4: pardon for each of our children, you can see the

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Speaker 4: relief in their faces.

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Speaker 2: One less child they've got to worry about. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So, I think the last couple of reasons that I'm

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Speaker 3: anti homework creates conflict at home, you know, because a

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Speaker 3: child doesn't want to do it because they are feeling unmotivated,

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Speaker 3: or they are bored, or they're struggling, and then the

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Speaker 3: parents are like, you've got to do your homework, and

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Speaker 3: next thing, you know that there's this big conflict in

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Speaker 3: the kitchen over whether or not the home work's going

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Speaker 3: to get done. One of my biggest issues, though, is

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Speaker 3: that homework leaves less time for the important stuff.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I think that that's where I really struggle with

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Speaker 4: homework policy is just when my kids come home, I

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Speaker 4: try so hard to be available to them, and yet

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Speaker 4: I'm going to spend half my afternoon staring at paperwork.

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Speaker 3: Well not at our house, thank you very much, missus

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Speaker 3: Happy families. But let me just add something on this though.

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Speaker 3: If parents are going to let their kids just sit

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Speaker 3: in front of video games and consume screens and do nothing,

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Speaker 3: then I probably would rather that they were doing homework.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's what I would say about that, because

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Speaker 3: I want children to be either having some good quality

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Speaker 3: downtime or using their brains, you know, being efficient, learning, growing, developing,

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Speaker 3: doing something like that. That's what childhood is kind of for.

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Speaker 3: But I don't think either of them are really good alternatives.

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Speaker 3: I'd rather than be doing their art or their music,

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Speaker 3: or their drama, or their sport or stands in the backyard, yeah,

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Speaker 3: going for aus, we'men, jumping on the trampoline, actually connecting

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Speaker 3: with their family, riding the bike down the street to

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Speaker 3: catch up with a friend. Those are the kinds of

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Speaker 3: things that I want to see kids doing in the afternoon.

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Speaker 3: Going to the grocery store with mum to buy the

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Speaker 3: groceries for tonight.

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Speaker 2: That's what I think is far more valuable.

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Speaker 3: That's the important stuff that they could be doing, and

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Speaker 3: sometimes homework gets in the way of that.

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Speaker 2: And lastly, it's just.

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Speaker 3: So generally uninspiring, like goly who wants to do it?

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Speaker 2: So that's why I'm against it.

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Speaker 4: That's a really great list, and it's given me some

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Speaker 4: food for thought. And I generally agree with everything that

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Speaker 4: you're saying. In my experience, most of the homework that's

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Speaker 4: coming home with our children takes them about ten or

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Speaker 4: fifteen minutes. And I just I don't see the point

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Speaker 4: of rocking the boat if it's really not adding anngs

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Speaker 4: to the overall running of my house.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, I guess I've kind of softened my attitude even

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Speaker 3: though I've gone on this great big rant today, because

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Speaker 3: of two things. First of all, most of the time,

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Speaker 3: our kids have been happy to do it, even though

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Speaker 3: I'm telling them not to. They they're like that it's

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Speaker 3: just easier if I do it, if they actually sit

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Speaker 3: down and world.

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Speaker 4: And they do. They feel ostracized, whether it be by

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Speaker 4: their peers or their teachers at times when even though

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Speaker 4: they have been given that pardon to not do it.

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Speaker 4: And so yeah, I just I feel like it's really

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Speaker 4: important that, you know, we kind of run this through

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Speaker 4: our own filters and work out what's going to work

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Speaker 4: best for us and our children.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, In terms of rocking the boat, you know, I

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Speaker 3: think that if there's no evidence for something and it's

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Speaker 3: causing distress, challenge and difficulty in the family, it's worth

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Speaker 3: rocking the boat.

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Speaker 4: It's worth So if it was causing distress, then I

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Speaker 4: would one hundred percent rock the boat. But in most

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Speaker 4: cases our children have actually not been too worried whether they.

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Speaker 3: Do it or not.

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Speaker 2: Now I need to I need to highlight a couple

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Speaker 2: of things.

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Speaker 3: First of all, the confession, I've definitely softened my stance.

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Speaker 3: The reason is not only because some kids just like

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Speaker 3: doing homework, but also we're talking about averages, right, So

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Speaker 3: on average it doesn't help. On average, it's actually neutral

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Speaker 3: or even harmful. But not every child is average, which

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Speaker 3: means that in some cases homework might actually be helpful.

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Speaker 3: And I do say this tentatively because I think any

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Speaker 3: differences are probably going to be very, very small, and

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Speaker 3: they might come at substantial costs. But you know, sometimes

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Speaker 3: homework can help. There are a couple of kinds of

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Speaker 3: homework that I really do encourage.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I would love you to share that, because they

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Speaker 4: one hundred percent of things that we support in our

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Speaker 4: home and have made a significant difference in our children's education.

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Speaker 2: Number One. Reading. You cannot read to your kids enough.

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Speaker 2: You cannot get them to read to you enough. Reading, reading, reading.

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Speaker 3: Of all of the things that we've talked about today,

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Speaker 3: homework has no evidence to support it in primary school.

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Speaker 3: But reading. I don't see reading as homework. I see

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Speaker 3: reading as just what you do because humans read, We

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Speaker 3: know how to read, and reading is good for our learning,

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Speaker 3: and we love to read.

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Speaker 2: We don't do at homework.

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Speaker 3: We don't fill in the reading wheel and say our

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Speaker 3: read for twenty minutes.

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Speaker 2: We just read.

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Speaker 3: And the research shows that the more our kids read,

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Speaker 3: the better they're likely to do academically. That's the typical outcome.

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Speaker 3: Reading is so strongly associated with great academic outcomes, with curiosity,

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Speaker 3: with learning, with openness and new experiences, with conscientiousness. This

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Speaker 3: is the number one thing that I would encourage parents

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Speaker 3: to do.

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Speaker 4: And we love reading with our kids. It's one of

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Speaker 4: the highlights of our days to just kind of cuddle

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Speaker 4: up at the end of the night and read a book.

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Speaker 3: Second thing projects. If the kids are interested in something,

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Speaker 3: then turn on the computer and let them learn, let

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Speaker 3: them do projects, let them create, let them connect, let

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Speaker 3: them develop their understanding of stuff. There's loads, again, loads

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Speaker 3: of research that shows that when children are self directed

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Speaker 3: and autonomous in their learning, and they're learning about stuff

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Speaker 3: that they actually care about, they're going to do better.

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Speaker 3: And the third thing, I just reckon, do stuff together.

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Speaker 3: And when you're doing stuff, count or spell or read,

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Speaker 3: give the children an opportunity to run down the supermarket

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Speaker 3: aisle and do something. You know, do jobs and chores

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Speaker 3: for you, cleaning up around the house, be involved in

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Speaker 3: family life. I don't see that as homework though. I

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Speaker 3: see that as just living a whole and fulfilling childhood.

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Speaker 3: So that's my homework speak.

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Speaker 4: So take home message for today is there is no

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Speaker 4: evidence that.

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Speaker 2: Homework helps in primary school.

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Speaker 4: In primary school, yes, but one thing that does definitely

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Speaker 4: make a huge difference to your children all round is reading, YEP,

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Speaker 4: reading and self directed learning. And if you can tap

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Speaker 4: into those areas, your child is just going to thrive.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and hopefully if you decide that you want to

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Speaker 3: talk to your your children's teachers, about it. You won't

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Speaker 3: be rocking the boat too much. I think it's a

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Speaker 3: worthwhile conversation because it's not great for our kids. If

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Speaker 3: your kids are happy doing their homework, just leave them be.

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Speaker 3: We really hope that this is answered a few questions.

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Speaker 3: We will link to the homework letter in the show notes.

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Speaker 3: You can find the homework letter just by typing in

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Speaker 3: Justin Colson homework letter on Google, but we'll linked to

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Speaker 3: it in the show notes as well, and we hope

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Speaker 3: that it's given you more question, no more answers than questions.

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Speaker 4: I hope there's no more question.

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Speaker 3: Maybe I need to do my homework on how to

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Speaker 3: write an outro. The Heavy Families podcast is produced by

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Speaker 3: Justin Rowland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 2: Craig Bruce is our executive producer.

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Speaker 3: Tomorrow on the podcast, really excited to have a conversation

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Speaker 3: with the one and only Gabby Stroud.

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Speaker 2: Gabby is an

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Speaker 3: Author of a couple of fabulous books, and we're going

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Speaker 3: to talk about some old school stuff, especially having a

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Speaker 3: great relationship with your teacher as the school year fires up.