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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcuttin woman from Gadighl country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os. It's Wednesday,

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Speaker 2: the twenty ninth of March.

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Speaker 3: I'm zara i'm sam.

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Speaker 2: Labour's key climate policy is set to pass after both

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Speaker 2: Labor and the Greens reached a compromise in their negotiations

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Speaker 2: this week. The government's claiming this reform will reduce two

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Speaker 2: hundred and five million tons of greenhouse gas emissions between July,

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Speaker 2: when it starts operating, and twenty thirty, the bill doesn't

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Speaker 2: go as far as the Greens initially wanted.

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Speaker 4: Negotiating with Labor is like negotiating with the political wing

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Speaker 4: of the colon gas corporations. Labor same is more afraid

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Speaker 4: of the colon gas corporations than climate collapse.

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Speaker 2: But on the flip side, according to the coalition, it

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Speaker 2: goes too far.

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Speaker 5: They're drunk with joy about having done a deal, but

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Speaker 5: it's going to be the Australian people that capt the

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Speaker 5: hangover of this.

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Speaker 2: So what will the legislation actually do and does it

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Speaker 2: go far enough. Tom's going to join us in the

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Speaker 2: deep dive today to discuss it all. But first Sam

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Speaker 2: the stories.

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Speaker 3: Big day for New South Wales Yesterday, Chris Mins was

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Speaker 3: sworn in as the New South Wales Premier after the

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Speaker 3: Labor Party one Saturday's election. Mins was sworn in by

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Speaker 3: the new South Wales Governor, along with some members of

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Speaker 3: his new cabinet, including Daniel Mookie as Treasurer and Preuka

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Speaker 3: as Education Minister. Labor still remains short of reaching a

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Speaker 3: majority in the New South Wales Parliament, with many seats

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Speaker 3: still yet to be decided.

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Speaker 2: An investigation that could lead to a class action lawsuit

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Speaker 2: against Latitude Financial Services over this month's cyber attack has

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Speaker 2: been launched. The cyber attack resulted in the theft of

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Speaker 2: almost eight million driver's license numbers and six million records,

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Speaker 2: including personal information of customers. It'll investigate how the hack

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Speaker 2: occurred and what safeguards were in place to stop the

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Speaker 2: cyber attack from actually happening.

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Speaker 3: Humsi Yusuf has become the leader of the Scottish National Party.

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Speaker 3: He's the first Muslim leader of a major political party

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Speaker 3: in Scotland. He replaces the outgoing Nicholas Sturgeon, who announced

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Speaker 3: she was stepping down as leader earlier this year.

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Speaker 2: And the good news, A soccer match played in Rome

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Speaker 2: has broken the record for the highest attended female match

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Speaker 2: in Italy's history. Almost forty thousand people attended the Champions

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Speaker 2: League quarter final between Roma and Barcelona earlier this month,

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Speaker 2: with the home side going down one nill to their

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Speaker 2: Spanish opposition. Tom thanks for joining us from Parliament House.

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Speaker 2: It has been a big week and its only Wednesday.

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Speaker 5: Thanks Zarah, good to be here and apologies once again

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Speaker 5: for the noise of democracy that you might hear in

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Speaker 5: the background of my recording today. And it has been

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Speaker 5: a big week, Zara, in particular, climate has been the

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Speaker 5: focus this week. Last week, I suppose it was the voice.

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Speaker 3: This week.

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Speaker 5: The Greens have agreed to support Labour's key climate bill

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Speaker 5: after they negotiated some changes and effectively that guarantees that

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Speaker 5: it's now going to pass into law. It's a bill

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Speaker 5: that's designed to make Australia's biggest emitters reduce their emissions

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Speaker 5: over time by changing something that's called the safeguard mechanism.

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Speaker 2: If I was a person that came up with a

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Speaker 2: name for policies, safeguard mechanism wouldn't be up there with

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Speaker 2: the names that I would put there.

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Speaker 5: It's not exactly the most clorous name in the worlds

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Speaker 5: are And I should once again apologize for a particularly

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Speaker 5: loud democracy noise that I can hear in my ear

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Speaker 5: at the moment, which is a bell that's summoning the

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Speaker 5: senators to the shameless apologies.

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Speaker 3: If you can hear that ringing.

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Speaker 5: Hopefully it'll stop soon. But yeah, I mean, I think

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Speaker 5: a lot of people care about climate change, but then

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Speaker 5: when you get into the details, it can be you

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Speaker 5: can get a little bit lost in all of these

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Speaker 5: kind of technical mechanisms and mumbo jumpo. I think the

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Speaker 5: best place to start with this is that all we're

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Speaker 5: really talking about here is just a price on emissions,

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Speaker 5: and I guess that's one of the big things in

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Speaker 5: the climate policy space. You want to get emissions down,

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Speaker 5: you either kind of force that through, you know, force

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Speaker 5: people to admit less or as a lot of countries

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Speaker 5: have done, you just put some kind of price on it,

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Speaker 5: and Australia in a sense has been debating some kind

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Speaker 5: of price on emissions for well over a decade, for

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Speaker 5: most of my life lately, and this one is basically,

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Speaker 5: you know, a new labor government has come in and

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Speaker 5: they've identified a way to reshape this thing called the

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Speaker 5: Safeguard mechanism, which was introduced by Tony Abby years ago

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Speaker 5: into effectively a price on polluting. And so it will

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Speaker 5: work for just over two hundred of Australia's biggest polluters,

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Speaker 5: who collectively account for about a third of our emissions,

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Speaker 5: and they will basically be set baselines. And the baseline

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Speaker 5: is how much you're allowed to admit in a particular year,

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Speaker 5: and if you go over that, effectively you have to pay.

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Speaker 5: And the idea is that those baselines will then decline

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Speaker 5: every year by about five percent and that you will

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Speaker 5: reduce emissions in that way. And so the way that

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Speaker 5: you have to pay. Essentially you've got a few options.

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Speaker 5: You can either literally pay a legal penalty if you

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Speaker 5: overshoot your carbon baseline as a big polluter, or you've

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Speaker 5: got some other options if you ever come under budget

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Speaker 5: you generate some credits, you can buy and sell those credits,

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Speaker 5: So a business that is going to pollute too much

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Speaker 5: can buy up some credits to kind of make up

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Speaker 5: for that. And there are a bunch of other kind

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Speaker 5: of exceptions in the system that allow businesses to meet

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Speaker 5: their requirements. But the basic architecture of what the government

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Speaker 5: is proposing is this series of baselines that kind of

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Speaker 5: get lowered over time. That's essentially what we're talking about here.

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Speaker 5: Hopefully that makes slightly more sense than the phrase safeguard mechanism.

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Speaker 5: And the government says that this is really key to

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Speaker 5: its emissions reduction targets. So the government is targeting a

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Speaker 5: forty three percent reduction in emissions by twenty thirty. It's

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Speaker 5: forty three percent, and they say that without this only

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Speaker 5: get thirty five percent. So it's a significant chunk of

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Speaker 5: the way that the government wants to meet its emissions

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Speaker 5: reduction targets over the next few years.

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Speaker 2: And so Tom the reason that this has been in

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Speaker 2: the news so much is because there's not this blind

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Speaker 2: agreement in this idea behind the safeguard mechanism. Not everybody

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Speaker 2: who wants action on climate agrees that this is the

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Speaker 2: best way forward, right, So what's been the point of

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Speaker 2: contention here?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: So, I mean, as always, different political parties have different perspectives.

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Speaker 5: The Coalition dealt themselves out pretty quickly. They just pose this,

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Speaker 5: They say it's going to be too costly on businesses,

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Speaker 5: and they weren't really interested in any sort of discussion.

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Speaker 5: That left the government focused on the Greens and a

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Speaker 5: few independents.

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Speaker 2: Can I just stop you there, Tom, Can you just

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Speaker 2: explain why with the coalition out, Labor needed to turn

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Speaker 2: to the Greens and the rest of the cross Bench

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Speaker 2: in order for this to pass.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. So essentially that's because of the numbers in the Senate.

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Speaker 5: So the government, you know, to pass the law, you've

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Speaker 5: got to get through both houses, the House of Representatives

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Speaker 5: and the Senate. The Government has a major already all

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Speaker 5: on its own in the House of Representatives, so it

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Speaker 5: doesn't need anyone, but to get something through the Senate

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Speaker 5: it needs either the Coalition or the Greens plus two basically,

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Speaker 5: and so they've had to negotiate with the Greens plus two,

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Speaker 5: and the Greens and independents had a few concerns, mostly

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Speaker 5: around some of those exceptions to the rules that I

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Speaker 5: alluded to. So the first issue is the credits that

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Speaker 5: I mentioned earlier. So there's this ability to buy credits

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Speaker 5: to make up for overshooting your baseline, and there was

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Speaker 5: some concern that essentially the ability of a business to

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Speaker 5: do that under the policy is effectively unlimited. In theory,

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Speaker 5: a business could just sort of buy enough credits to

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Speaker 5: pollute as much as it likes and essentially avoid any

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Speaker 5: requirement to meaningfully reduce its emissions. That was concern number one.

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Speaker 5: Concern number two was based around the idea that every

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Speaker 5: business under this scheme gets their own baseline, and that

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Speaker 5: could be a bit of a problem if you have

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Speaker 5: more coal and gas projects coming on, more big polluters

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Speaker 5: coming on, because if everyone gets their own baseline and

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Speaker 5: you get a whole bunch of new coal and gas

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Speaker 5: producers coming on with their own baselines, well, the total

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Speaker 5: number of emissions that you're getting out of that is

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Speaker 5: getting bigger and bigger with each new coal and gas project.

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Speaker 5: That essentially, if Labor were to allow new col and

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Speaker 5: gas projects as they say they're open to, that that

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Speaker 5: would undermine the emission's production benefit. So they're the two

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Speaker 5: kind of holes that the Greens and independents had concerns.

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Speaker 2: About and those concerns were made very clear by the

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Speaker 2: Greens to Labor. So what happened on Monday talk us

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Speaker 2: through the press conference that you were at.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well it's been bumping on for weeks, really, Zara,

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Speaker 5: And I guess, as I mentioned, the Greens have been

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Speaker 5: very strong on the idea that they want the government

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Speaker 5: to stop all new coal and gas projects and that's

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Speaker 5: something that Labor has been pretty clear that it is

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Speaker 5: not going to consider, and at times that sticking point

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Speaker 5: has made negotiations pretty tense.

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Speaker 4: Labor seems more afraid of the coal and gas corporations

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Speaker 4: than climate collapse.

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Speaker 5: This is Adam Bant, leader of the Greens, speaking at

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Speaker 5: that press conference earlier this week.

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Speaker 4: A Labour seems more afraid of woodside than global warming.

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Speaker 5: And I guess it was pretty clear that this wasn't

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Speaker 5: going to shift. Labor wasn't going to say no to

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Speaker 5: any newcolon gas projects. They say that gas in particular

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Speaker 5: is going to be needed in future to secure our

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Speaker 5: energy supply. There wasn't going to be any movement there,

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Speaker 5: but there has been some fairly significant movements. So essentially

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Speaker 5: the government has agreed to. I think the best way

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Speaker 5: to put it really is to plug some of the

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Speaker 5: holes that the Greens and Independence were concerned about, and

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Speaker 5: the first way that they're doing that is with a

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Speaker 5: total cap on emissions. So I floated this idea before that.

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Speaker 5: One of the issues that the Greens had at the

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Speaker 5: scheme was that there wasn't kind of an overall budget

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Speaker 5: that was you know that everyone had to share. Well,

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Speaker 5: now there is. So now the government has said that

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Speaker 5: over a five year period they will set into law

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Speaker 5: the number of emissions that are supposed to be reduced

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Speaker 5: by this program. And if it looks like that's not

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Speaker 5: going to happen, the Climate Change Minister will then a

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Speaker 5: legal requirement to change the rules to be stricter on

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Speaker 5: businesses to force them to reduce their emissions even further. So,

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Speaker 5: for example, it might be able to crack down on

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Speaker 5: business's use of credits, or it might be able to

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Speaker 5: crank down the baselines even further, or it might be

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Speaker 5: able to say for a new coal project, this coal

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Speaker 5: project has to have zero emissions, and effectively effectively banned

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Speaker 5: new coal and gas projects. If it looked like we

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Speaker 5: weren't going to get the emissions benefit that the government's promised.

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Speaker 5: So from the government's perspective, they're able to say, well,

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Speaker 5: this is the same policy. You know, we said we

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Speaker 5: were going to reduce emissions in this way and we're

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Speaker 5: still doing that. From the Greens perspective, it's been tightened

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Speaker 5: significantly to make sure that what is promised in terms

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Speaker 5: of emissions reduction, that there are some teeth in there

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Speaker 5: to ensure that will be delivered.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So Tom, the Greens have announced that they're supporting

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Speaker 2: this legislation. What happens now. You mentioned that there are

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Speaker 2: also two other independents that had to support the bill

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Speaker 2: in order for it to pass through the Senate.

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Speaker 5: Right, that's right, and that's going to happen now. So

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Speaker 5: the bill should pass into law pretty easily with the

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Speaker 5: support of the Greens, and they in fact not just

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Speaker 5: get plus two, they'll get plus three. So the Jackie

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Speaker 5: Lamby Network and Independent David Pocock have both said that

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Speaker 5: they're willing to support the bill as well. Means effectively,

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Speaker 5: with these changes that it will pass through the Parliament,

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Speaker 5: which was seen certainly by the government as a victory.

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Speaker 6: Today we're a big step closer depassing the safeguard's mechanism

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Speaker 6: reforms through the Parliament.

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Speaker 5: This is Minister for Climate Change and Energy Chris Bowen,

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Speaker 5: speaking at a press conference earlier this week.

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Speaker 6: We're also therefore a big step closer to achieving our

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Speaker 6: targets of net zero and forty three percent by twenty thirty.

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Speaker 5: And even though, as you heard before, Leader of the

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Speaker 5: Greens Adam Bant had some criticisms for the government, he

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Speaker 5: also sees the compromise that they've reached as a victory.

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Speaker 4: We want to say to everyone who despairs about the

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Speaker 4: future under a climate crisis, and who's worried about their lives,

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Speaker 4: or their kids or their grandkids, you should have a

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Speaker 4: spring in your step today because we have shown that

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Speaker 4: it is possible to take on the coal and corporations

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Speaker 4: and win.

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Speaker 1: Tom.

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Speaker 2: I feel like it would be remiss of us to

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Speaker 2: have a discussion about a milestone in Australia's climate policy without,

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Speaker 2: of course acknowledging what we heard from the IPCC report

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Speaker 2: that was dropped last week that emissions reduction policies around

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Speaker 2: the world don't go far enough.

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Speaker 5: Well, yeah, I guess it's an interesting contrast for that reason, Zara,

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Speaker 5: I mean everything that we hear coming from the United

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Speaker 5: Nations and from global climate experts, I guess is continually

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Speaker 5: stark and continually clear about the challenge we face. The

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Speaker 5: UN Secretary General is pretty strong on the idea that

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Speaker 5: no new coal and gas projects anywhere across the world

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Speaker 5: can be built, and pretty kind of stern about how

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Speaker 5: the world is bracing for disaster. Generally speaking, at these

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Speaker 5: climate summits, most of the world degrees that it would

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Speaker 5: be good to limit warming to one point five or

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Speaker 5: two degrees. But the messy part is countries putting those

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Speaker 5: commitments into practice, and the way that we're getting climate

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Speaker 5: action worldwide is lying on parliaments of countries all over

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Speaker 5: the world to pass laws to actually deliver on their

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Speaker 5: emissions commitments. And we know, probably better than anyone else

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Speaker 5: here in Australia how messy the politics of that can be.

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Speaker 5: Whether they would use these words or not, I think

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Speaker 5: Labor would on some level recognize that the policy that

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Speaker 5: they've offered here is probably not what they would have

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Speaker 5: come up with in a perfect world. It is a

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Speaker 5: slightly compromised climate policy. I mean, they've picked something that

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Speaker 5: Tony Abbott put in and tried to kind of reshape

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Speaker 5: it into an emission's reduction mechanism. So in that sense

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Speaker 5: it's kind of I guess not in their first best world.

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Speaker 5: There was an independent MP I heard about a week

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Speaker 5: ago who I think put it really well that the

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Speaker 5: best outcome she saw for this process. I think it

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Speaker 5: was a legalistpender who said this was everyone ends up

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Speaker 5: a little bit unhappy, but with a degree of unhappiness

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Speaker 5: that they can live with. I think that's a good

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Speaker 5: way of putting it, and a pretty good summary of

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Speaker 5: what's happened in the Parliament this week.

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Speaker 2: Tom, thanks for joining us today.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Sarah, Thank you for joining us on the

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Speaker 3: Daily OS this morning. If you learned something from today's episode,

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Speaker 3: don't forget to hit subscribe so there's a TDA episode

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Speaker 3: waiting for you every morning. We'll be back again tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: Until then, have a great day.