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Speaker 1: Now a concerning report in the Northern terret Train News

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Speaker 1: on the weekend about victims of crime, defendants and witnesses

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Speaker 1: falling through the cracks of an overwhelmed court system, as

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Speaker 1: in custody numbers in Darwin's spike by two hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty percent now. According to data obtained by the Northern

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Speaker 1: Tiret Train News, the Darwin local courts in custody numbers

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Speaker 1: on the first day of each week has dramatically increased

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Speaker 1: over the past seven months. According to the report, on

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Speaker 1: the sixteenth of June, there were forty nine people on

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Speaker 1: the in custody list compared to fourteen the fourteen in

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Speaker 1: the cells on the first Monday of December last year.

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Speaker 1: Now joining us in the studio is bethwhile the President

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Speaker 1: of the Criminal Lawyers Association of the Northern Territory. Good morning, Beth,

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Speaker 1: minding Katie, thanks so much for your time this morning now, Beth.

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Speaker 1: According to the paper on June sixteen, as I touched on,

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Speaker 1: there were forty nine people on the in custody list

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Speaker 1: compared to fourteen people in the cells on the first

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Speaker 1: Monday of Decement last year. What kind of impact are

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Speaker 1: these numbers having? On the system from your perspective.

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Speaker 2: So, Katie, what I've seen down at the courts, and

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Speaker 2: I was there two weeks ago when we were having

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Speaker 2: these huge numbers through, we're seeing a delay in matters

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Speaker 2: getting reached in court of the night. Every of the

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Speaker 2: forty nine people needs all their paperwork to be read

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Speaker 2: by a lawyer that them will go in and see

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Speaker 2: their client. That can take all morning to sort out.

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Speaker 2: We're even seeing just basic things like a queue of

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Speaker 2: lawyers waiting to see that the prisoners that are in

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Speaker 2: the cells because there's only four holding cells, so we're

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Speaker 2: having to wait to see our clients. That means that

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Speaker 2: we're not ready to go before lunchtime, and then after

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Speaker 2: lunch everybody's ready to go, and then matters aren't reached

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Speaker 2: and they're then adjourned to the next day or the

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Speaker 2: day after, and just the can keeps getting kicked down

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Speaker 2: the road. So we're not seeing outcomes and the system

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Speaker 2: certainly overwhelmed.

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Speaker 1: How significantly have those numbers grown in recent months?

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Speaker 2: Well, those statistics that you just read out are accurate

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Speaker 2: and frightening, So something like two hundred and fifty percent

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Speaker 2: in spike that we're seeing and it's a natural consequence

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Speaker 2: of a series of decisions that have been taken by

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Speaker 2: various players. One is that the court, the judges stopped

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Speaker 2: doing their own call bail applications over the weekends and overnight.

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Speaker 2: That means that no one would be getting bailed from

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Speaker 2: the station, so everybody's getting brought before the court. We've

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Speaker 2: also had the Attorney General confirm that she's directed police

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Speaker 2: to arrest more people, So we're seeing that those decisions

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Speaker 2: on the ground as to whether or not somebody might

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Speaker 2: be warned or bailed or charged by way of summons,

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Speaker 2: which used to be the presumption, those people are instead

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Speaker 2: being arrested and brought before the courts. So all of

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Speaker 2: those things together, as well as the new Bayer laws,

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Speaker 2: have meant that we're seeing this spark.

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Speaker 1: So really it is a lot of it is as

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Speaker 1: a result of those legislative changes. Yes, now, can you

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Speaker 1: give me some examples of what the situation means on

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Speaker 1: a day to day basis. I mean you touched on

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Speaker 1: it just before when you talked about lawyers sort of

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Speaker 1: not being able to see the people that they need

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Speaker 1: to go in and see. But talk us through what

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Speaker 1: it means on that day to day basis, it.

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Speaker 2: Means it matters aren't getting reached before the courts, so

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Speaker 2: they're not somebody might be on quite a minor charge.

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Speaker 2: It might be a driving offense, so you know a

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Speaker 2: lot of people do get picked up for driving offenses,

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Speaker 2: even for speeding over a certain limit. Is imprisonable, which

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Speaker 2: means it's arrestable, which means you get brought before the court.

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Speaker 2: So people or they might have a warrant for failing

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Speaker 2: to attend for a driving matter for example. Now people

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Speaker 2: like that won't be getting bail, and sometimes it means

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Speaker 2: that they're not facing court on the first day. A

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Speaker 2: lot of people, because the prisons are so for are

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Speaker 2: not going to the prison, they're going to the watch houses.

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Speaker 2: So they'll be in the watch houses for about seven

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Speaker 2: days before they're even able. The lawyers or even their

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Speaker 2: family might know where they are. So we can't find

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Speaker 2: people because forty nine people aren't getting brought before the court.

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Speaker 2: There's forty nine on a list, But there are various

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Speaker 2: places around the Darwin and Greater Darwin area and watch

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Speaker 2: houses and so on, so the difficult to find, difficult

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Speaker 2: to get paperwork, difficult to get instructions from and again,

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Speaker 2: so what you might have is people spending up to

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Speaker 2: seven days in custody for what for something that they

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Speaker 2: would never get a term of imprisonment for. They'd get

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Speaker 2: a fine for it, but instead they've been shuffled in

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Speaker 2: quite awful conditions in the watchhouses for that time. I

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Speaker 2: had a prisoner the other day that was complaining that

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Speaker 2: he hadn't had a shower. He was smelly. I preparated

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Speaker 2: it back to the guards. He was worried he was

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Speaker 2: getting an affection under his armor boil because he hadn't

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Speaker 2: had a shower. So basic things like that are happening,

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Speaker 2: and people are getting lost in the system because of

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Speaker 2: the numbers and the pressure.

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Speaker 1: But if I know some people listening will be going, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, we don't want criminals out on the street,

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Speaker 1: people who've broken the law out on the street. But

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Speaker 1: from what you're saying to me, you know, in some

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Speaker 1: instances you are talking about offenses which may not be

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Speaker 1: as serious as what our listeners might think they are.

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Speaker 1: Would that be correct?

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Speaker 2: That's right? And when a lot of the listeners hearing

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Speaker 2: this saying, well, this would never happen to me because

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Speaker 2: I don't break the law. So I don't have to

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Speaker 2: worry about it. This is about criminals. They're getting what

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Speaker 2: they deserve. But imagine this scenario. Imagine you're having an

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Speaker 2: argument with your neighbor and there's some neighborhood dispute that's happening,

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Speaker 2: and they ring the police. They make a complaint against you.

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Speaker 2: It's not true, but the police doesn't know that. There's

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Speaker 2: no If you're getting arrested straight away, just say they've

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Speaker 2: said you've asulted them, You get in prison, you get

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Speaker 2: locked up, You then can't speak to anybody, can't establish

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Speaker 2: your innocence. We lose this presumption of innocence because we're

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Speaker 2: getting arrested straight away, remanded, spending a week in custody

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Speaker 2: before you've even spoken to anybody. So apply that to

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Speaker 2: yourself and it could happen to you. This is what's

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Speaker 2: happening now in our prison system, in our correction system,

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Speaker 2: our justice system, and we all should have pause for

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Speaker 2: concern of that.

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Speaker 1: But in terms of what could be done to try

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Speaker 1: and move things along more quickly, because we've got an

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Speaker 1: enormous number of people on remand as well, there is

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Speaker 1: no doubt that we need to get things moving much

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Speaker 1: more quickly by the sounds of things, what could be done.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so we've got about over fifty percent on remand

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Speaker 2: so just a huge amount of that's where we're seeing

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Speaker 2: the spikes of people that aren't being seen by courts.

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Speaker 2: There's a few really easy things that could happen. We

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Speaker 2: could have longer sitting days at court because using the

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Speaker 2: example I did before, the lawyers aren't ready to go

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Speaker 2: until two o'clock. And to say that we'll start at

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Speaker 2: nine point thirty and make sure all the lawyers are ready,

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Speaker 2: it's not going to happen because of what takes the time.

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Speaker 2: It takes the time to get the paperwork, to speak

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Speaker 2: to your client, to get a plan ready, to be

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Speaker 2: able to do a plea or a bail application or

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Speaker 2: adjourning a matter, all of those things take time. If

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Speaker 2: we had longer sitting days and two courts stood up

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Speaker 2: in the afternoon rather than the morning to take the overflow.

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Speaker 2: I know that we've got one extra judge that's going

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Speaker 2: to be appointed later in the year, and that that's good,

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Speaker 2: But when we're talking about two hundred and fifty percent spikes,

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Speaker 2: it's not going to cover it. But if we do

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Speaker 2: at least have a number of courts running in the

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Speaker 2: afternoon and longest sitting days. Then what we might see

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Speaker 2: is that we're getting to three o'clock at the end

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Speaker 2: of the day, which is not even the end of

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Speaker 2: a day, and from three o'clock we're getting cut offs

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Speaker 2: and everything's getting adjourned to the next day. So then

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Speaker 2: we just have the same thing. It's Groundhog Day at

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Speaker 2: court and instead of actually getting through matters with longer days,

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Speaker 2: then instead of ajourning everything off and you have to

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Speaker 2: start again.

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Speaker 1: It seems crazy to me that, you know, like that

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Speaker 1: sounds like quite a logical and simple thing to do

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Speaker 1: to just extend the you know, to extend the day,

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Speaker 1: have longer sitting dues.

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Speaker 2: Well, because if we need more court rooms, for example,

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Speaker 2: than instead of building a whole new courthouse, we just

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Speaker 2: use them for longer And that seems to make sense.

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Speaker 1: And so I mean, why is something like that not happening.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I did. I gave them the suggestion

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Speaker 2: earlier on in the year, and I don't know what

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Speaker 2: hasn't been enacted. There's a few things you'd need to do.

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Speaker 2: You need to get the court stuff, perhaps on split shift,

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Speaker 2: so you there's a bit of recruitment that we need

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Speaker 2: to happen in order to stand that up. That doesn't

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Speaker 2: seem to be like an overwhelming hurdle.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Beth, if we're able to do that, if

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Speaker 1: we were able to extend those sitting days and we're

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Speaker 1: able to push through some of these cases a little

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Speaker 1: bit more quickly, what impact do you think that would

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Speaker 1: have more broadly, not just for you know, for those

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Speaker 1: that are waiting for their cases to be heard, but

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Speaker 1: even when you look at you know, victims of crime,

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Speaker 1: everybody within the system.

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Speaker 2: So it would mean that we've got less delay, that

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Speaker 2: we could see a reduction in the remand rate because

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Speaker 2: people would be processed more quickly, they might be sentenced

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Speaker 2: more quickly, which takes them out of that Romand population

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Speaker 2: and into the sentence prisoner, which is and it is

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Speaker 2: the pressure in the Roman population that the problem is

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Speaker 2: in terms of victims. What we are seeing at the

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Speaker 2: moment is with an overwhelmed system and people just dealing

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Speaker 2: with the duty court, the remand the arrest in Romand courts,

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Speaker 2: then the hearing courts don't necessarily get enough attention, and

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Speaker 2: so what we can see is matters getting adjourned when

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Speaker 2: we've got witnesses summons, victims summons to attend for their

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Speaker 2: court date and those matters not getting reached. And now

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Speaker 2: that should be a real concern for people too, and

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Speaker 2: that's been occurring all year with the added pressure that

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Speaker 2: matters just aren't getting reached.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I believe correct me if I've got these

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Speaker 1: numbers wrong. But when I caught up with Najar a

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago that actually said that when you

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Speaker 1: talk about remand, I think the average in the Northern

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Speaker 1: Territory court was about ninety days on remand, and then

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Speaker 1: in the Supreme Court think it was around three hundred days. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean they're massive numbers.

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Speaker 2: Yes they are. The Supreme Court is dealing with much

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Speaker 2: more serious offenses and if you're listing no matter for trial,

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Speaker 2: then three hundred days is probably comparable to other places

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Speaker 2: in Australia because they're the serious offenses. But what has

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Speaker 2: really spiked is the proportion of prisoners on remand in

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Speaker 2: the local court. And that's about listing days very much

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Speaker 2: so listing a matter for hearings or directions, and those

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Speaker 2: lists are really blowing out. So and that's just an

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Speaker 2: administrative logistical thing, and it is frustrating the ability to

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Speaker 2: have an effective justice system all round for everybody involved

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Speaker 2: in it.

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Speaker 1: Well, Berthwhild I always appreciate your time. I know you're

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Speaker 1: a busy woman. Thank you very much for joining me

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Speaker 1: in the studio this morning. Thank you Katie, thank you