1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: Hang it Afternoe everyone, it is Will and Wood. He 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: on your Monday after earn ge whiz Woods. Last week, 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:11,799 Speaker 1: this Ben Robert Smith case was absolutely everywhere, and for 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: those of you that aren't across it, basically most revered 5 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: and decorated soldiers go on to Victoria Crosses and has 6 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: been branded as a war criminal. Now, look, there was 7 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: an article that was written by a guy called Nick 8 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: mackenzie and another journalist at Fairfax and nine newspapers called 9 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: Chris Masters, and he basically denied all this and he 10 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: was backed by seven West Media and it's so huge 11 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: amounts of fun. He was like forty million dollars worth 12 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: of up front fees just to get the case up 13 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: and running, and he lost, which means Channel nine newspapers 14 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: had to prove that all of this stuff that he 15 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: did in Afghanistan was true, which is really hectic. And 16 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: right now we're really lucky that we've actually got the 17 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: journalists who wrote the articles which which broke all this 18 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 1: news initially about Ben Robert Smith, the person that Ben 19 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 1: Robert Smith was suing, Nick Mackenzie. Welcome to the show, 20 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: Nick to go. Hey, Nick. 21 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 2: My first question mate is how does someone like you 22 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 2: first come across these stories from Afghanistan. 23 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 3: Chris Masters, my colleague and I back in twenty seventeen 24 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 3: began digging away, and principally our key source of information 25 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 3: was guys who had served, like then Robert Smith in 26 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 3: the sas in Afghanistan, highly decorated, highly accomplished soldiers. They 27 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 3: put their lives in the line, but when they were 28 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 3: on the ground they saw things that made them deeply uncomfortable. 29 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 3: There were civilians who were taken prisoner, they had their 30 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 3: hands bound. One of them was kicked off a cliff 31 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 3: by ben Robert Smith and executed at the bottom of 32 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 3: the cliff. So it wasn't just the fog of water. 33 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:38,119 Speaker 3: We're talking about really cold hearted illegal murder of civilians 34 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 3: hands bound in the most grotesque of ways. And that's 35 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 3: ultimately what we proved in court. What the judge said 36 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 3: last week. 37 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: Happened specifically, Nick, I know you mentioned the cliff incident there, 38 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: and maybe this's a bit of a warning for people 39 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: who got kids in the cars and stuff. Right now, 40 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: what were the most horrific or sort of grotesque claims 41 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: that you had to prove in court? 42 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 3: Now? The key k I mentioned it again, this jam. 43 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 3: He was a civilian. He was a farmer who came 44 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 3: to a village to get some shoes for his daughter 45 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 3: and to get some flower to take him to Nil 46 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 3: some flower. There was a necesss raid looking for an insurgent. 47 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 3: They arrested all all the men and question them. Looking 48 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 3: at the insurgent. Here's one of the blokes. He smiled 49 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 3: at Ben Robert Smith at the wrong time. That was 50 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 3: his crime. Ben Roberts Smith control led him to the 51 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 3: edge of the cliff, and Ben Robert Smith kicked him 52 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 3: over that cliff and then he was executed. It's clearly 53 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 3: not the fog of war. It's clearly cold heartless war crime. 54 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 3: It's an absolute bully and bastard eyed bully. Blokes around 55 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,959 Speaker 3: all the time would basically say, you challenge me and 56 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 3: you speak up about what I've done, about the illegal 57 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,399 Speaker 3: things I've done, I'll come after you. I'll come after 58 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 3: your family. Is we in the case? Wasn't just simply 59 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 3: about sending off those guys, but also to the victims, 60 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 3: giving them some small bit of justice and hoping that 61 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 3: this maybe kicks in another process, maybe this order to 62 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 3: end up one day in the criminal court. 63 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 2: Hate Nick at the end of the day, your name's 64 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,399 Speaker 2: attached to these articles that have been written and obviously 65 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 2: been seen that did you feel worried about your safety 66 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 2: at all? 67 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 3: Yeah? I did at times. Ben Robertson stops it nothing. 68 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 3: I know, you know, don't blame in me and hates 69 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 3: me and understandable. Today I'm clearing through the emails, a 70 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 3: lot of emails from just punters in the public, from 71 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 3: Vietnam veterans, from Afghan veterans, most of them saying you know, 72 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 3: well done, We appreciate knowing the truth. But one in 73 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 3: ten of those emails says you're a scumbager. I wish 74 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 3: he died. Some people they don't get it for whatever reason. 75 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 3: This is not about fog of war. It's not about 76 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 3: journos judging what a guy didn't split second decision. It's 77 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 3: about guys of theesas who stood up and said, well, 78 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 3: we don't stand for our colleague executing a civilian. 79 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: So, Nick, you mentioned a couple of times the idea 80 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: of the like the fog of war, like you know, 81 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: all's fair in love and war. What happens at wars 82 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: stays at war, and the cliches roll on. What defines 83 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: the difference between a soldier doing something in action versus 84 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: him doing something in cold blood. 85 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 3: The rules of engagement, so the laws and rules under 86 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 3: which the AUS the soldiers operating in Afghanistan actually allowed 87 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 3: them to take lives had to be careful. But if someone, 88 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 3: for instance, had a radio and it was thought they 89 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 3: might be calling in that attack, they're not a gun 90 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 3: but just a radio, you could engage with that person. 91 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 3: Because there is body you could kill them. If there 92 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 3: was a threat to the soldiers. There was no hesitation 93 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 3: that you could kill the threat. It's not a blood 94 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 3: on the Australian military because the majority of guys in 95 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 3: the Special Forces community serve with absolute honor and distinction, 96 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 3: and lots of our sources in the ses they want 97 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 3: said to me and understand this. We are hard men 98 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 3: and we're sent to do a tough job and we 99 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 3: do it and we don't hesitate to kill Taliban. That's 100 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 3: what we're there to do. We don't murder the innocent. 101 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 3: We were there to help the people of Afghanistan. At 102 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 3: the end of the day, Ben Rotson was an aberration. 103 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 3: He was a rogue soldier with a few rows around him, 104 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 3: and I think confronting him was very, very difficult for 105 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 3: those who did. But it's a testament to the moral 106 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 3: courage of these guys. You know, they had the physical 107 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 3: courage to go and fight in Afghanistan, they had the 108 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 3: moral courage to stand up against what Robert Smith did 109 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 3: and become Ry can be proud of those those guys 110 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 3: who did that. 111 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 1: I got to put a warning out there for kids 112 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: in cars because some of this can be pretty graphic. 113 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: As we are speaking exclusively to one of the reporters 114 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: from nine newspapers who actually broke the story. You would 115 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 1: have seen him all over your TVs last week. It's 116 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: Nick mackenzie who joins us right now. Can you talk 117 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: to me a little bit about what Ben Robert Smith 118 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: is like, because I remember I was in Perth going 119 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: through the bag scanner. It was like the sun had 120 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: been blocked out behind me because of the shadow that 121 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: was cast over me, and I turned around it was him. 122 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: Truly one of the most intimidating people I've ever seen 123 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: in my life, one of the biggest people I've ever seen, 124 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: and that sort of ties him that story I was 125 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 1: referring to before, Nick, where you you mentioned that he 126 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: kind of like picked up and threw a guy to 127 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: the ground, and then picked up a machine gun which 128 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: most people would struggle to lift with two arms, and 129 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: like blast this guy with that gun with one arm. 130 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 3: That's right to me. He's an absolute monster of a man. 131 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 3: Vesically he's six foot six times over hammer kilos. In 132 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 3: researching the book, I really asked the question, who is 133 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 3: Ben Robert Smith? And now I tried to talk to him 134 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 3: many times before we did our reporting. You he always refused. 135 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 3: He always with legal threats and then behind the same 136 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 3: mind you he was sending. You know, he was actually 137 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 3: physically threatening warning off our sources. He was threatening other 138 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 3: guys in their thest to shut up. What sever bloke 139 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 3: is you? You know he's an absolute bully SA To me, 140 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 3: Ben Robertson has always been a winner and he just 141 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 3: can't understand that anyone else would challenge him. That had 142 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 3: never happened in his life, a life of entitlement, the 143 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 3: son of a Supreme Court judge from Perth, went to 144 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 3: the best private schools, very very privileged upbringing. But those 145 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 3: who knew him, and I know many who know him 146 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 3: very well, just talk as a broken as an absolute narcissist, 147 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 3: an absolute ego mania. I can think about this. This 148 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 3: is a guy who knew what he'd done. He suited us. 149 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 3: We didn't want to go to court. Been going to 150 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 3: court for five years. Has been the worst experience. It's 151 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 3: been pretty unpleasant for all concerns. All the witnesses have 152 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 3: been retraumatized. He pulled this on fancy, having the arrogance 153 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 3: knowing about the wrong thing to Sue. 154 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really similar, isn't it? To Lance Armstrong. He 155 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 2: went to go on Sue and he bullied any reporters 156 00:06:57,920 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 2: who were repining against him being in drug jure. He 157 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 2: got on the front foot and I think still to 158 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 2: this day, Lance would say I did nothing wrong. 159 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, you want to 160 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 3: hope that most people are good, and I think less 161 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 3: people are good. But there are these narcissists who work 162 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 3: at walk amongst us, and you know, think of CEOs 163 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:16,679 Speaker 3: and a few publishers out there, probably a few journals 164 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 3: as well. But these are guys and women who they 165 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 3: they're so arrogant they believe their own lives. Even there 166 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 3: was a moment where I thought maybe Dan Robert Smith 167 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 3: actually has reconstructed the truck in his own head because 168 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 3: it's with such kiddinting arrogance. And he was a good 169 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 3: witness in court like you spent days testifying. You didn't 170 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 3: never seem nervous to me. He did so with power 171 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 3: and authority, and all the while he was lying through 172 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 3: his teeth. My colleague Chris Mars's has said it's a 173 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 3: few times Australians would condemn and did condemn Nazis who 174 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 3: lined up Civillians against the wall and shot them. Why 175 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 3: is it different if someone's wearing Australian uniform, you know, 176 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 3: Ben Robert Smith murdered civilians, it's not different. He executed 177 00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 3: a prisoner who was found in a tunnel in Afghanistan 178 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 3: on Easter Sunday two thousand and nine. This is the 179 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 3: bloke who was thrown down a machine gunned and disploke 180 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 3: at a prosthetic league. Another soldier removed that league that 181 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 3: was taken back to a makeshift bar or the fat 182 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 3: lady's arms back at the base and it was used 183 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 3: as basically the biggest beer drinking vessel in Afghanistan. And 184 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 3: there's lots of photos of Robert Smith's hands draped around 185 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 3: his mates as they swig from that prosthetic league, and 186 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 3: it's pretty ugly. He knew where the league came from. 187 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 3: He knew it was almost like a trophy of war. 188 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 3: It was gualified. So it again goes into a bit 189 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 3: of a psycha of the guy. Some of THESS witnesses 190 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 3: we had who spoke up against him, and remember one 191 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 3: of them was concerned that that his dog might end 192 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 3: up dead. Others were consumed their personal safety and sas 193 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 3: soldier who testified in court said he was worried Ben 194 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 3: Robert Smith would come after him and in his family. So, 195 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 3: you know, a total narcissistic psycho. 196 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 1: Wow, wellte, congratulations, thank you, Thank. 197 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 2: You for you because you put yourself on the line 198 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 2: as well there, mate. 199 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. 200 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 1: Absolutely, if you want to get nixt book, it's going 201 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 1: to be out at the end of the month. It's 202 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: called Crossing the Line. I read an excerpt about it 203 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: in the paper the other day. It was absolutely chilling. Truly, 204 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: I spent far too long on the toilet because I 205 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: was avoiding my toddler, but also I couldn't stop reading the. 206 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 2: Article revealing that's probably crossing the line as well. 207 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 3: Well. 208 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: I think you've done too much. It wasn't awesome read though, 209 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:25,599 Speaker 1: so I think you've got to get my hands on 210 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: the book. Nick, thanks so much for sharing with us. 211 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: I want to take congratulations. It seems a bit weird 212 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: because obviously it is a really tragic story in a 213 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: lot of ways that our most decorated hero turns out 214 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: to be an absolute monster, and it's scary to think 215 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: that there are more people like that out there. By 216 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 1: the sounds of things, it sounds like the Sas have 217 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,439 Speaker 1: been incredibly supportive and helpful in this and hopefully by 218 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: what you're telling me, it seems like it is an 219 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: anomaly in terms of the people that serve Australia and 220 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: the honor and the respect they have for the people 221 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: whose country they're in. 222 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 3: Yes, spot, thanks to you, Tom, I appreciate it.