1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: Earlier this year, I hit burnout, and to be honest, 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: in my friendship circle, I don't know too many people 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:12,120 Speaker 1: who haven't had that experience in the last couple of years. 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: So when I knew I was having Adam Grant back 5 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: on How I Work, I wanted to ask him for advice. 6 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: Adam is a world renowned organizational psychologist and a professor 7 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: at Wharton, as well as being a New York Times 8 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: bestselling author of six books and the host of the 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:36,520 Speaker 1: incredibly popular work life podcast by Ted. Perhaps surprisingly, Adam 10 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: has had his own experience with burnout, despite the fact 11 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: that he has researched and written about the topic four years. 12 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: So what does Adam recommend to prevent burnout? And what 13 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: changes did he make to his own life? And if 14 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: you're feeling burnt out right now, what strategies can you 15 00:00:55,760 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: put in place to recover? Welcome to How I Work, 16 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: a show about habits, rituals, and strategies for optimizing your day. 17 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. Adam is someone who 18 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: I feel like operates at two hundred percent productivity all 19 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,559 Speaker 1: the time, So I wanted to know has Adam ever 20 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: experienced burnout? 21 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 2: Definitely I feel pretty lucky that I get to design 22 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 2: my own job. And so if I burned out for 23 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 2: a day or two, Wow, my boss made some really 24 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 2: bad design choice. 25 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 3: Oh wait, that was me. 26 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 2: I need to rethink how I spend my time to 27 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 2: try to get re energized. But when I had a 28 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 2: real job, I definitely experienced burnout. And then I've had 29 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 2: some acute moments of burnout. So one of the times 30 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 2: when I actually felt the most burned out was when 31 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 2: I was writing my first book. I don't think I've 32 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 2: ever been more fired up for a project in my 33 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 2: entire life. So to set this scene a little bit, 34 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 2: this is twenty eleven. I got tenure, and I realize 35 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 2: I don't have to worry about job security anymore, and 36 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 2: I'm not going to let down by my family by 37 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 2: forcing them to move and pulling our kids. 38 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 3: Out of school. 39 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 2: And it was this euphoric sense that now I had 40 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 2: freedom also to think about long term what impact I 41 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 2: wanted to have. And a group of students talked me 42 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 2: into writing a book. I had a vision. I sat 43 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 2: down and the ideas just poured out of me. I 44 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 2: was supposed to be writing a book proposal, and I 45 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 2: got so excited about the vision that I accidentally wrote 46 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 2: the entire book. Basically, I started writing in May and 47 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 2: by August I had over one hundred thousand words. Then 48 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 2: I sent them to my literary agent and he came 49 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 2: back to me and told me that he didn't even 50 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: think my academic colleagues would make it through the whole book. 51 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 3: Wow. True, it was that boring, and I. 52 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,679 Speaker 2: Think my first reaction was just deep dejection, like I 53 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 2: wasted an entire summer, And then it was a lot 54 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 2: of self doubt, can I ever do this? And then 55 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 2: eventually my agent, Richard said, you can do this. Just 56 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 2: write like you teach, not like you do research. When 57 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 2: I sat down to do it, it just it was 58 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 2: not measuring up to my image of what it was 59 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 2: going to be. And it was like what I read 60 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 2: Glass talks about when there's a gap between your skill 61 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 2: and your taste. I knew what a great book read like, 62 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 2: and the words that were appearing on my screen were 63 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 2: not that. And I just felt like, Okay, I'm not 64 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 2: working hard enough, and so I started pushing myself harder 65 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 2: and I would go outside in the morning and write 66 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 2: until it was dark. It was just exhausting and eventually 67 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 2: I felt like it was time to give up. 68 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: Wow, what made you push through? 69 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 3: I don't honestly remember. 70 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: What was I thinking. 71 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 2: I think it was a combination of things. One thing 72 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 2: that happened was I came across a new study that 73 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 2: I was really excited to tell people about, and then 74 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 2: as I listened to myself explaining it, I was like, Oh, 75 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 2: that's how I. 76 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 3: Need to write it. 77 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 2: And so I think I produced a couple of paragraphs 78 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 2: that sounded to me pretty good, and that was a 79 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 2: little bit of a boost of confidence and energy. I 80 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 2: guess it was a small win. And then the other 81 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 2: thing that happened was I started giving my shitty drafts 82 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 2: to a group of undergrad students who told me to 83 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 2: write the book in the first place, and I had 84 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 2: them do ratings of each draft, and a lot of 85 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 2: the ratings like three four and a half two, but 86 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 2: they also weren't zero, And after I made sure that 87 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,559 Speaker 2: they were being honest with me, that gave me hope 88 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 2: that in fact, there was there was a gem worth 89 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 2: polishing here, and I think I didn't want to let 90 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 2: them down, and that gave me an extra kick to 91 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: keep going. 92 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: So on the topic of burnout. What were the symptoms 93 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: that you were experiencing that made you think this is 94 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 1: something close to maybe what I've read about or lectured about. 95 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: Because I imagine being an organizational psychology lecturer, you've probably 96 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: read a lot about burnout and maybe told it. 97 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 2: Well, Amantha, what was really disappointing about this experience was 98 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 2: I had published multiple papers on burnout by this point, 99 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 2: I had measured burnout in dozens of jobs. I had 100 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 2: analyzed all the predictors of it. I'd even run experiments 101 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 2: and organizations that successfully reduced burnout, and I taught classes 102 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 2: about how to do that. And here I was experiencing 103 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 2: the very symptoms that I knew how to treat in cure, 104 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 2: and I felt like an idiot, like I'm supposed to 105 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 2: be a burnout expert. Why am I burning out? And 106 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 2: what it felt like first was just the sheer emotional exhaustion. 107 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 2: I felt like I was beating my head against a 108 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 2: brick wall over and over and over again, and the 109 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 2: harder I pushed, the more it hurt. And with that 110 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 2: came a sense of dread that instead of looking forward 111 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 2: to waking up and working on a chapter, I was 112 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 2: avoiding it. I was starting to procrastinate, which was very 113 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 2: out of character for me, as you know. And I 114 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 2: think the last thing was the persistent can I do this? 115 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 2: Do I want to do this? The questioning of my 116 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 2: capabilities and my motivation. That was not fun at all. 117 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: If you could go back and coach yourself from ten 118 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 1: twelve years ago when that was what would you have 119 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: told yourself to do differently? 120 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 2: I think the main advice I would have given that 121 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 2: version of myself was start sharing the drafts a lot earlier. 122 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 2: I think that I was worried about embarrassing myself and 123 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 2: I didn't want to waste other people's time. But the 124 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 2: reality is it's really hard to judge your own work, 125 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 2: and it's also very difficult to see the problems in 126 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 2: your own work because you're too close to it. And 127 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 2: so I needed people who had a little bit of distance, 128 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 2: who could sort of zoom out and tell me here's 129 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 2: what's broken, and then often when they diagnosed the bug, 130 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 2: I actually had an idea for how to fix it. 131 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 2: There are a lot of reasons why people hesitate to 132 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 2: share their drafts, and it's not just about the fear 133 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 2: of embarrassment. There's also this concern that somebody else might 134 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 2: steal your ideas, either on purpose or by accident. I 135 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 2: think if you're that afraid that somebody's going to steal 136 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 2: your ideas, you don't have that many. 137 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 3: Ideas, which is not a great a great place to be. 138 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 2: But I was thinking about all the downsides of putting 139 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,239 Speaker 2: my work out there, and what I failed to consider 140 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 2: was the fact that if I didn't put it out there, 141 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 2: it wasn't going to get better. And also I was 142 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 2: going to end up depriving people who could benefit from 143 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 2: it of ever engaging with it. 144 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 3: And I would have just said, look, get over all 145 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 3: of that. 146 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 2: You can choose the audience you're comfortable sharing it with early, 147 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 2: but you've got to get somebody else's eyes in front 148 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 2: of it. 149 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: What else would you have done, even just to maintain 150 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: energy and try to get back some of that enthusiasm 151 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: on a day to day level. 152 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 2: Well, you wrote the book on this, quite literally, so 153 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 2: I'm I'm inclined to ask you, Matt, that what should 154 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 2: I have done? I can tell you what my instincts 155 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 2: are now, but you've spent a lot more time I'm 156 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 2: thinking about this that I have. 157 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: So you tell me, Well, here's the Irony Adam. I 158 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: mean probably it would have been three weeks ago now, 159 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: because I've just spent two weeks on leave and over 160 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: in Vietnam, having the most amazing holiday. The week before 161 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: I left, I realized I hit burnout. I can relate 162 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: to you in terms of the energy and enthusiasm and 163 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: passion that you have for your work and sharing ideas, 164 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: and I know a bit about burnout. I haven't published 165 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: papers on burnout, but I'd like to think, as an 166 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,079 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist that's fairly well read and also that has 167 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: just released a book about health habits, that surely I 168 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: can not be someone the guests burnout. But I did. 169 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: I found in that week where I'm like, I've hit it. 170 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: It's happened to me. I felt like crying all day 171 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: and in between meetings, That's pretty much what I was doing, 172 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: just sitting at my desk being just so sad and 173 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: so stressed and just feeling like an out of failure 174 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: because I just spent the last five months as being 175 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: acting CEO of Inventium, and there were certainly moments where 176 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: I felt like, yeah, I'm doing a great job, but 177 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: I think right at the end and I found an 178 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: amazing person to actually step in and be the permanency. 179 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: I just felt like I could just see everything I'd 180 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: done wrong. I was scoring myself in that week. I 181 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: feel like I'd give myself a one out of ten 182 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: if that, and I could see all the mistakes and 183 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: I couldn't say anything good. I'd invested so much time 184 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: in deepening relationships with people and building trusts. I'd had 185 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: a couple of conversations in that last week where I 186 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: was just at rock bottom, where I didn't bring enough 187 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: empathy to the conversation, and I'm like, did I just 188 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: destroy all the trust and goodwill that I had built 189 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 1: over the last few months. And I remember that first 190 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: week on holidays in Vietnam, and I was having the 191 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: most amazing time. But whenever I thought about work and 192 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: the idea of returning to work in two weeks, I 193 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: just felt such anxiety and I thought, oh my gosh, 194 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: what has happened to me? And how do I get 195 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: out of it? And I just felt really lost. If 196 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: I we say writing a piece to help other people, 197 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: I just felt stuck in terms of what on earth 198 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: do I do other than take time off? What would 199 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: you advise me adam hearing where I was asked. 200 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 2: Well, you're not answering my question, are you You're trying 201 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 2: to make me answer it. I'm sorry to hear that 202 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 2: you went through that, and I do think that it's 203 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 2: I don't want to say that it's actually good for us, 204 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 2: but sometimes it's necessary to live what we study and 205 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 2: write about in order to remember what it's like and 206 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 2: to make sure we're not just approaching it from the 207 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 2: point of view of theory and data, but we're really 208 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 2: getting close to what people's lived experiences are like. And 209 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 2: no better way to get close to an experience than. 210 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 3: To live it. 211 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,079 Speaker 2: So if you want to become a burnout expert, you 212 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 2: should go and burnouts as often as possible. 213 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 3: No, at least once. 214 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 2: In your case, it sounds to me like like some 215 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 2: boundaries were missing and you were just stretching yourself very thin. 216 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 2: One of the things that I've both found in my 217 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 2: research and learned through experience over time is I've got 218 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 2: to start by asking what's the most important project to 219 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 2: me in a given week and prioritize that, and then 220 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 2: if they're not in a hierarchy, I end up just 221 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 2: trying to juggle too much at once, whereas if I 222 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 2: know what the number one priority is for the week, 223 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: I'm willing to accept that some of the others might 224 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 2: fall on the back burner a little bit. That would 225 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 2: be I guess that would be my first piece of advice, 226 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 2: and it really for me. It stems from the classic 227 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 2: research on the role try out of burnout. What causes 228 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 2: people to get extremely stressed out at work is when 229 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 2: they experience role overload and role conflict and role ambiguity. 230 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 2: To apply those to your situation, it sounds like you 231 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 2: had too much to do, you were being dragged in 232 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 2: too many different directions, and also you didn't have total 233 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 2: clarity on what success looked like. So I would start 234 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 2: there and ask, well, how do you solve those problems? 235 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting hearing you talk about just thinking what 236 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: is your most important project or priority for the week, 237 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: and I should have done that, and I felt like 238 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: I wanted to do all this stuff. I know you're 239 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 1: a fan of the musical Hamilton, and there's a lyric 240 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 1: in Hamilton about how he's running out of time. He's 241 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: writing like he's running out of time. 242 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 2: Why do you write like you're running out of time? 243 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: Yes? Yes, yes, exactly, and I had that line going 244 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: through my brain almost every week. I felt like there 245 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: was so much that I wanted to do when I 246 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: stepped back into my company in this leadership role, and 247 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: I could see all these things that needed fixing and 248 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: needed doing, and I knew that I was only in 249 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: this role for a finite period of time, and I 250 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: found it so hard to prioritize because I just wanted 251 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: to do everything and I had so much passion and 252 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: so much enthusiasm. And ironically, I remember, probably about two 253 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: months before I had this week where I just felt 254 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: like I hit burnout. I went for a walk with 255 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: a girlfriend who's a clinical psychologist, and I was saying 256 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: to her, I'm getting really frustrated because people on my 257 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 1: team are telling me that I'm working two long hours 258 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: and that I'm setting about example. And I've said to 259 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: my team, I don't expect you to do what I do, 260 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: and I'm really energized by the hours that I'm working. 261 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,719 Speaker 1: And I felt so good and like I was achieving 262 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: so much. And then I thought about that conversation when 263 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: I hit that week, and I thought, was I just delusional? 264 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: Was I adam? Was I just living in some fantasy 265 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: world where I thought this was sustainable just because I 266 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: felt really energetic in that moment. 267 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 3: Entirely passable. I don't know, I wasn't in your head. 268 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 3: You tell me, I. 269 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: Do wonder, I do wonder, And then I wonder, maybe 270 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: if I would have made some different choices between April 271 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: and June, perhaps I wouldn't have hit burnout and I 272 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: would have actually sustained that kind of high performance where 273 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:42,199 Speaker 1: I felt like I was ass. 274 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, I wonder. 275 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 2: It sounds like you're a frequent victim like me of 276 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 2: the planning fallacy where you just underestimate how long different 277 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: things are going to take, and when you're looking at 278 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 2: a blue sky calendar a few months down the road, yeah, 279 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 2: of course I can do all that, and then. 280 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 3: You forget to do the three x or four x 281 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 3: multiple for. 282 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 2: The unexpected extra tasks that get added on or that 283 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 2: need to be redone or done differently, and then you 284 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 2: realize you've just over committed yourself. 285 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like that was definitely happening. What I 286 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: also struggled with is back to your strategy of what's 287 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: the most important project for the week. I just couldn't 288 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: determine that, and so in your life. How do you 289 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: do that? Because that's easier said than done when you're 290 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: excited about lots of things, as I know you are, 291 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: So how do you pick that one project and stay 292 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: true to that vision at least for a week. 293 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 2: I think for me that's evolved over time. So it 294 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 2: used to just be what other people needed from me, 295 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 2: and then gained enough freedom to also ask what am 296 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 2: I excited about? And over time I've learned that's not 297 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 2: enough either for me to really want to make a 298 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 2: project a top priority. It's got to matter to other people, 299 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 2: it's got to be interesting to me. But also I 300 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 2: have to feel like I'm making a unique contribution, that 301 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 2: what I'm doing is not easily substitutable or replaceable. And 302 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 2: you know, I remember reading some of the early research 303 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 2: on this. It was in the social loafing literature, where 304 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 2: the classic finding that many hands often make light the work, 305 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 2: and if you add a sixth or seventh person to 306 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 2: a team, then each person tends to contribute a little 307 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 2: bit less because they diffuse responsibility and assume that somebody 308 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 2: else is going to pick up the slack. Only then 309 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 2: everybody just ends up doing a little more slack and 310 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 2: One of the antidotes to that problem was task uniqueness, 311 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 2: the idea that I have a distinctive role to play 312 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 2: and that nobody else can bring what I'm adding to 313 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 2: the table. And when you do that, people don't just 314 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 2: assume that everybody else is going to carry the weight. 315 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 2: I found that that for me is a really big factor. 316 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 2: And it's not just a motivator because it prevents me 317 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 2: from just relying on somebody else to do it. It's 318 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 2: a motivator because I feel like I make a difference, 319 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 2: that it's not just the position I happen to be in. 320 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 2: So often people do jobs that have an impact on others, 321 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 2: but they don't feel like they're delivering that impact. They 322 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 2: feel like they're just a cargon. 323 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 3: And a machine. 324 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 2: And if a leader or a manager goes that extra 325 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: step and helps people think about not just who would 326 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 2: be worse off if your job didn't exist, but who 327 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 2: would be worse off if you were not doing this role, 328 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 2: that becomes a major source of energy. 329 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: I like that we have a thing at Inventium, which 330 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: I think a lot of companies have adopted now called 331 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: a one page operating manual, and one of the questions 332 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: that we ask is what would be missing if you 333 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: weren't here or if your job wasn't here. So it 334 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: just reminds me of that. Aside from thinking about what's 335 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: just one project you can prioritize for the week, what 336 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: else do you do to make sure well to try 337 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: to prevent burnout in your own life. 338 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 3: It's a good question. 339 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 2: There's some healthy habits that I think are just table stakes, right, 340 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 2: So I'm pretty obsessive about working out six days a week. 341 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 2: There's an element of joy and play that I try 342 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 2: to build into my schedule. I made the mistake for 343 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 2: a long time of treating fun as a reward for 344 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 2: finishing my to do list, and now it's actually on 345 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 2: my to do list. So I try to have one 346 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 2: thing that I'm looking forward to that's not work every day. 347 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 2: A lot of that is kid centric. In some cases, 348 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 2: we might end up playing soccer or playing Mario Kart, 349 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 2: and just knowing that that's on the calendar fires me 350 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 2: up to both be focused and productive in my work 351 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 2: and also to not feel the dread of this day 352 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,360 Speaker 2: is all work. And then I think maybe the one 353 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 2: of the more novel things that I've picked up over 354 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 2: time is so Paul Graham came up with this distinction. 355 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 2: I really like that you're familiar with maker days and 356 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 2: manager days, And the AHA moment for me when I 357 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 2: read that was, Oh, we all have manager tasks that 358 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 2: we have to do that are administrative, that are exhausting, 359 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 2: zoom meetings, and we also have maker roles and activities 360 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 2: where we're creating stuff, we're solving problems, we're making choices. 361 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,239 Speaker 2: And the recommendation of Paul was you should divide your 362 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 2: days manager stuff out of the way one day and 363 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 2: then you can experience the full joy of the maker 364 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 2: tasks on a different day. In some ways, that's still 365 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 2: an ideal for me, but I've also found that it's 366 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 2: pretty exhausting to have an entire manager day. I just 367 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 2: don't like managing. I like creating. So what I've learned 368 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 2: is if I actually put those manager tasks in a 369 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 2: particular block of the day, I don't mind them as 370 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: much and they don't deplete me as much. 371 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 3: And I think the. 372 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 2: Reason I like that so much is that I know 373 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 2: I'm not doing my best creative or analytical work then, 374 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 2: because there's a circuitian rhythm, dip and energy that you're 375 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 2: familiar with. And also I have I've blocked out enough 376 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 2: time in the morning then that I can feel like 377 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 2: I accomplish something and I'm less annoyed by the fact 378 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 2: that this administrative work is interfering with my desire to 379 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 2: do something more magical. So that's probably my If I 380 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 2: had a hack, I hate I actually don't believe in 381 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 2: productivity hacks. I think most things that we do require 382 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 2: real effort in work and there's not an easy shortcut. 383 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 2: But if I had a hack, it would be like 384 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 2: noons our manager time. 385 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: I love that and I can relate. I've got my 386 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: calendar up on a different screen in my setup here 387 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: and my meetings a yeah, always in the afternoon. I 388 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: feel like it is the best way to get good 389 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: maker time in a day. We will be back with 390 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: Adam soon where he talks me through his approach to 391 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: scheduling and taking holidays and time off. If you're looking 392 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: for more tips to improve the way you work can live. 393 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: I write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've 394 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: discovered that have helped me personally. You can sign up 395 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 1: for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com. 396 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,479 Speaker 1: I want to know about holidays and what is your 397 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 1: approach to taking time off because you never seem to 398 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: be off, certainly in terms of your prolific presence on 399 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: social media, but what is your approach to taking holidays 400 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: or even just mini breaks. 401 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 2: Well, this is definitely evolved over time. I used to 402 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 2: be against breaks and I thought, if I've optimized my day, 403 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 2: then every minute will be used effectively, and that one 404 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 2: that's just not sustainable for any mortal and two, it 405 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 2: also fails to give you the downtime that you need. 406 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 3: For energy and creativity. What does this look like for me? Now? 407 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 2: What it looks like is I use exercise as a 408 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 2: built in break during the day, I'll run round noon 409 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 2: and that kind of splits up the morning. And then 410 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: after the run is when I move into the manager time. 411 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 2: Let me just tell you what I do, which is 412 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 2: during the school year, I start working when our kids 413 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 2: leave for school and I stop when they get home. 414 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 2: And that is really energetic focus time. And my goal 415 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 2: is to not work once they're home. But if I'm 416 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 2: behind on anything or there's a deadline, sometimes I'll pick 417 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 2: it up after they go to bed. Increasingly, my goal 418 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 2: is to not even do that, so I actually get 419 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 2: an evening break and I can read or watch TV 420 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 2: or or whatever won't annoy my wife, who's even more 421 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 2: introverted than I am. What's useful about that for me 422 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 2: is it creates a rhythm, and I know that there 423 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 2: are going to be focused work times and then there 424 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 2: are going to be times to detach and enjoy the moment, 425 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 2: which is not something I've been historically that could at 426 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,479 Speaker 2: So that's I guess that's the micro side. How does 427 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 2: that track with what you do and what you. 428 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: Advise on a day to day level? And I would 429 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: say all my routines just went out the door for 430 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 1: the first half of this year, where I felt like 431 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: I was in a dual role. I felt like I 432 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: was obviously doing the CEO role, but then the health 433 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 1: habit launched in January, so there was a lot of 434 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: publicity on either side of that, and also feelings of 435 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: resentment that I was in this CEO role when I 436 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: just wanted to be fully invested in as you can appreciate, 437 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,719 Speaker 1: when you put all this work into researching and writing 438 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:55,959 Speaker 1: and editing a book, you want to give it your 439 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: role when it's out in the world. And then I 440 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: was still doing my individual thought leadership work, which is 441 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: the keynote speaking and the podcasting and the writing and 442 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: all that. And so because nothing gave, I did sit 443 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: down and think what am I going to say no to? 444 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: But it wasn't enough because all the things that I 445 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: was saying yes to. I thought it'll be fine. I'll 446 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 1: just be hyper productive and I'm good at that. It 447 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 1: turns out not so much. I had a big think about, Okay, 448 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: what are the new rituals and rules that I'm going 449 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 1: to have for myself. And I'm getting back into just 450 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: not checking digital communication before I've at least done a 451 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: couple of hours of deep work. So I was just 452 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: getting into really bad habits of when I get out 453 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: of bed. I had Microsoft Teams and I had Email 454 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: Outlook on my phone and they would get checked before 455 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: anything else happened workwise, which is something I advise against 456 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: because it just sets you up to be reactive. So 457 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: I've just deleted those apps from my phone. As I 458 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: know you believe will power is overrated, So let's just 459 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: set up the systems and the environment so that it's 460 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: easy to have those good habits. I'm also giving myself 461 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: just a hard stop at five pm as well, which 462 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: I find really hard, and I am also planning for 463 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: longer holidays. It occurred to me when I took these 464 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 1: two weeks off and I was completely off all digital communication. 465 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 1: It was the first two week period that I'd been 466 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: completely uncontactable from work in probably years, which is kind 467 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: of scary. What about you on that macro level? 468 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is interesting in two ways. The first 469 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 2: one is that we know better when it comes to technology. 470 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 2: No one in their right mind waits till their phone 471 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 2: battery is at one percent before they plug it in. 472 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 2: They start charging it when it begins to look depleted, 473 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 2: and I think, obviously we need to do the same 474 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 2: thing with our bodies and our brains, but we forget 475 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 2: that that's necessary because we're not walking around with a 476 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 2: battery meter. We did a podcast episode last year on 477 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,679 Speaker 2: work Life about the science of recharging on weekends and vacations, 478 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 2: and one of the things I learned through reviewing the 479 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:02,120 Speaker 2: latest evidence and talking with a experts is it's more 480 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 2: restorative to have more frequent, short vacations than it is 481 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 2: to have longer ones that are less frequent. So if 482 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 2: you had a choice between one week vacation every month 483 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 2: or a two week holiday every other month. The first 484 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 2: option is better than the second. So I've tried to 485 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 2: adopt that and say, okay, you know, why not take 486 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 2: the advice to treat our weekends as many vacations. This 487 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 2: is something that our mutual colleague, reb Rebelly first introduced 488 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 2: me to. He said, look, you know, very few people 489 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 2: have the luxury of going on holiday every week. Most 490 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 2: people can't get the time off from work, most people 491 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 2: can't afford it. But you do have this thing called 492 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 2: a weekend. And if you treat your weekend like a holiday. 493 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 2: Instead of saying, Okay, I'm going to spend Saturday catching 494 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,479 Speaker 2: up on all the work that I didn't finish, and 495 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 2: then Sunday I'm just gonna sleep because I was so tired, 496 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 2: and then the whole thing starts over again, that's not 497 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 2: going to work that well. So I love this idea 498 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 2: of weekends as vacations, and we've been doing more of 499 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 2: that as a family. 500 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: It's so funny because I am very aware of this research, 501 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: and I was actually working on a project where I 502 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: was reacquainting myself with this research literally a few weeks ago. 503 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: And if I think about the last couple of years. 504 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 1: I'm really good at the mini break. My partner and 505 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: I are really good at going Okay, every eight weeks, 506 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: we're going to do a mini weekend away somewhere, typically 507 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: in regional Victoria, and we'll take a couple of days 508 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: off work. So it's a four day time off period. 509 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: And so that's what I've been doing. And I hadn't 510 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: been taking those long breaks because I've read that research 511 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 1: and I listened to it. But sometimes you know, you 512 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: do read research and go that just I've tried it 513 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: and it doesn't gell. But do you alsoy take longer 514 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:46,679 Speaker 1: breaks out them? 515 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, Amantha, what I love about what 516 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 2: you just said is that, I mean you just responded 517 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 2: exactly like a great organizational psychologist would and should. I 518 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 2: have encountered too many people who read the research that 519 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 2: conflicts with their experience and say, well, the evidence is wrong, 520 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 2: and what you said was not that you said I 521 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 2: might be an outlier, and I do think that's a 522 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 2: healthy way to respond to data. So the first thing 523 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 2: I would wonder about is what are you doing during 524 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 2: your holidays and are you actually spending those in an 525 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 2: effective way? We could think about that through all sorts 526 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 2: of different lenses. One of my favorite findings that I 527 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 2: stumbled across recently is this growing body of evidence that 528 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 2: although most of us have said well, being in nature 529 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 2: is really what recharges us, and you want to be 530 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 2: in a green space. If you can around a forest 531 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 2: or grass or trees, blue spaces. 532 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 3: Are even better. 533 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 2: That water is more relaxing, and especially wide bodies of water, oceans, 534 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 2: big lakes, rivers, they bring extra tranquility. And there's a 535 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 2: huge commount of speculation about why that is and whether 536 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 2: we've evolved to experience this sort of relief when we're 537 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 2: near water, because prehistorically we would have dehydrated if we 538 00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 2: couldn't get to water. But I think there's something to 539 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 2: be said for or Okay, are you doing enough beach 540 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 2: vacation so you're spending enough time by the pool as 541 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 2: just as one small example, right, So i'd want to 542 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 2: break down how are you spending those holidays. I'd also 543 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 2: want to look at what are you doing over the 544 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 2: course of your work weeks that is pushing you to 545 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 2: need that long to recover. Are you draining your battery 546 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,880 Speaker 2: to the very bottom? Maybe that's another cause here so 547 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 2: how much do you think this is your personality versus 548 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 2: how much do you think it's the habits you've adopted 549 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 2: for both your work and your holidays. 550 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 1: What happened this year is that typically I've got good habits. 551 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: I've got good habits around how I work, around productivity, 552 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 1: and around health, and I also feel incredibly guilty when 553 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 1: I don't stick to those habits because I hate being 554 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: someone that writes and talks about things. The classic plumber 555 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: with the blocked pipes I hate. I hate that so much, 556 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 1: and I've really felt that this year where a lot 557 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 1: of the things that I talk and write about I've 558 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,719 Speaker 1: been doing the opposite, and that's made me feel terrible, 559 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: which is probably contributed to the problem. And so I 560 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: feel like normally my habits are good. And what I've 561 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: also felt is that this two week circuit breaker, almost 562 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: which I think is what you get when you take 563 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: more than a week of leave. I was completely in nature. 564 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: I was also spending really great time with my daughter 565 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: as well, and just really just hyper present in a 566 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: way that I hadn't been for months. And I think 567 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: now that I'm back, I've got habits that I can 568 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: now put in place and I'm not dragged back by 569 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: these really unhealthy and unproductive habits that I had in 570 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: the first half of the year. 571 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 3: That's interesting. 572 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 2: That makes me think of Wendy woods research on habit 573 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 2: formation and change and the myth that it takes a. 574 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 3: Month to change a habit. 575 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 2: And I got such a kick out of Wendy's finding 576 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 2: that depending on the person and the habit and the 577 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 2: approach they take, it could take many months, or it 578 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 2: could take a day, and it could be anything in between, 579 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 2: and there's huge variation there. And I think what you're 580 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 2: highlighting that builds on that is that the first step 581 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 2: toward changing a habit is to become aware of it. 582 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 3: It's hard to pack. 583 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 2: Into a week, which is something that one of our 584 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 2: star doctoral students, Marissa Schandell, highlighted for me. Marissa said, 585 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 2: everybody thinks about vacation as unplugging, but you also have 586 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 2: to think about it as plugging into sources of meaning 587 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 2: and joy. And that was such a powerful statement for 588 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 2: me because I'm not a detaching person like that sounds 589 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 2: like boredom to me. But the idea that I could 590 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 2: connect to different things that fire me up, that give 591 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 2: me purpose or some level of joy that's exciting and 592 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 2: that's something I could look forward to. And so it 593 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 2: sounds to me like you have two pronged approach, which 594 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 2: is the first part of the holiday is you're decompressing, 595 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 2: and then the second part is you're getting quality time 596 00:29:58,320 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 2: with people you care about. 597 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: Hundred percent. I would love to know what haven't we 598 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 1: talked about about burnout that you think that you've come 599 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: across in research, or that you've experienced for yourself, that 600 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: you think, if people listening can relate to feelings of 601 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: burnout or just exhaustion at work, what should they be 602 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: doing well. 603 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 2: I think we've we've talked a bunch about individual changes, 604 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 2: but we have to also recognize that a lot of 605 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 2: burnout is organizational. If you're in a team or in 606 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 2: a job where you're not the only one who's feeling burnout, 607 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 2: guess what. That is not a problem in your head. 608 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 2: It's a problem in your circumstances. And that means that 609 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 2: there's an opportunity for rethinking roles and redesigning jobs to 610 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 2: try to reduce demands or overload or conflict or ambiguity. 611 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 2: It means there's a chance to think about we may 612 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 2: not be able to eliminate all the stressors in our jobs, 613 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 2: but we can try to gain more control over them. 614 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 2: We can get more choices about what we do when 615 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 2: and who we do it with. And it especially means 616 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 2: we can think about how to provide people with support. 617 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 2: And I keep coming back to something I learned about 618 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 2: during COVID, which was a manager who said to a team, Look, 619 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 2: it's okay to call in sick. It's also okay to 620 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 2: call in sad. And I thought that was compelling way 621 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 2: to frame this that, Yeah, of course you would take 622 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 2: time off if you got the flu or if you 623 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 2: sprained your ankle. Well, guess what, if you're feeling burned out. 624 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 2: We want you to prioritize mental health same way you 625 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 2: would physical health. And I think it's good for managers to, 626 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 2: obviously to say it, but what ultimately matters is whether 627 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 2: they walk the talk. So one of the things I've 628 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 2: been encouraging leaders and managers do is to make it 629 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 2: clear to their teams, I'm going to be taking a 630 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 2: recharge week, I'm going to be taking a mental health 631 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 2: day and normalize that behavior. And what that does is 632 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 2: it gives people across the organization the support, They need 633 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 2: the permission, they need to prioritize their own well being, 634 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 2: and I don't think we can underscore that enough. 635 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: It's funny, I've heard that advice before, and I was 636 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: thinking about that a lot, like in the few weeks 637 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: leading up to my holiday, and I just felt like 638 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: I so desperately needed to take a sad day or 639 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: a recharge day, and I reckon, I've probably spent hours 640 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: thinking about that in the back of my head. Could 641 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: I take it? How would I frame that? And I 642 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: ended up discrobing you just need to push through because 643 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: right now, like you're the leader and people need to 644 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 1: have confidence in you. Absolutely there's a place for vulnerability, 645 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: but I also don't want to compromise the confidence that 646 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: people have. Even though I've pushed through all this change, 647 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 1: I'm okay. I didn't want the team worrying about me, 648 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: and I was really worried about the signal that would 649 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: stand at that moment. 650 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 2: I think that's a really common challenge for leaders, and 651 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 2: I think it's a totally reasonable concern to have. 652 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 3: For me. 653 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 2: What matters here is how you delivered the message, not 654 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 2: when you deliver it. So the danger of waiting until 655 00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 2: after you've you've recovered, is that it might take longer 656 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 2: to recover. And also you might be perpetuating the burnout 657 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 2: of your team right because you haven't given them the 658 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 2: leeway to do what they need to do to maximize 659 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 2: or maintain their energy. So what I would wonder is, 660 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 2: of course you don't want to go in and say, Hey, 661 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 2: I'm really sorry to let you all know this, but 662 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 2: I'm completely burned out. I have no energy, i haven't 663 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 2: had an original thought in months on the verge of quitting, 664 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 2: and I hope you all can, you know, just cover 665 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 2: for me while I disappear for an unlimited amount of time. 666 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 3: You would not do that. 667 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 2: What you might do is say, I don't know if 668 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 2: you've noticed, but I've been picking up on a little 669 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 2: bit of a dip in my energy. And as somebody 670 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 2: who writes and speaks and teaches on this topic, it's 671 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 2: really important to me to pay attention to those signals 672 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 2: and also to model the very things that I'm trying 673 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 2: to educate around. And so I'm gonna, you know, I'm 674 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 2: gonna be taking a few days just to recharge. Nothing 675 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 2: to worry about, but I want you to have, you know, 676 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 2: the friend, just most enthusiastic version of me. And I 677 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 2: also want you all to know that when you're in 678 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 2: that zone, this is what I expect of you. Do 679 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 2: I doubt your competence if you say that, No, I 680 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,320 Speaker 2: actually have more faith that you're telling me the truth. 681 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: Adam, I'm going to transcribe this interview and I'm going 682 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 1: to just sniff out that little beat and I'm going 683 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,839 Speaker 1: to put it in a note, and next time I'm 684 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,839 Speaker 1: feeling exhausted, that is what I'm going to say to 685 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 1: my team. That's gold. 686 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 2: I'm watching a growing number of leaders who I would 687 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 2: consider to be in the enlightened end of the emotional 688 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 2: intelligence spectrum say we're going to do just a pulse 689 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 2: check once a week. And as a leader, it's my 690 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 2: job to ask my team how's my energy? Because I 691 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 2: don't always notice it, and even when I think I'm 692 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 2: in a good place, I don't always know the impact 693 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 2: I have on others. And so getting a little bit 694 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 2: of that quick feedback if a bunch of people tell 695 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 2: me that I'm dragging or I seem exhausted, that's helpful 696 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,879 Speaker 2: information for me. And then guess what, it's not coming 697 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 2: from me, it's coming from my team. 698 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,240 Speaker 1: How do they do that energy check out of interest? 699 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: Is that? Is that a survey? Is that a synchronous discussion? 700 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,880 Speaker 2: I think it depends on the psychological safety in the team. 701 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 2: I think when in teams that have strong norms of 702 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 2: candor and honesty, where a lot of trust has been developed. 703 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 2: I've seen it done as just a Okay, let's go 704 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 2: around the room, quick energy check zero to ten, how 705 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,280 Speaker 2: is my energy today or how is my energy this week? 706 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,399 Speaker 2: And if the leader asks first, sometimes you know other 707 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 2: people will will pose the question. Sometimes it's just feedback 708 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 2: for the leader saying, look, my job is to energize 709 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 2: the room, not to enervate or exhaust the room, and 710 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 2: so I just want that feedback. And then people may 711 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 2: choose to have that conversation with each other in pairs 712 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 2: or in smaller groups, I think when psychological safety is lower. 713 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 2: I've seen it done very much as a pulse survey, 714 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 2: where there's a daily or a weekly or a monthly, 715 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 2: kind of the same way that a lot of companies 716 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,320 Speaker 2: do quarterly annual engagement service. 717 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,879 Speaker 1: I wish we'd had this chat a few months ago 718 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: before I'd hit burnout. I personally found it so useful. 719 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: It has been brilliant just to hear your thoughts on 720 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 1: burnout and holidays, and I'm hoping that for the second 721 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: half of the year I can be a fact to 722 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 1: being energetic and enthusiastic and not get anywhere near burnt out. 723 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,760 Speaker 1: So thank you so much for your time, well. 724 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 2: As I always thank you for having me in for 725 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 2: both the thoughtful questions and answer the generative stories which 726 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 2: always make me think. I do think your team is 727 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,320 Speaker 2: going to hold you accountable now, like you've gone public 728 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 2: with the fact that you burned out. You've admitted that 729 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 2: you felt like you were a hypocrite, so obviously no 730 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 2: one can let you. 731 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 1: Do that again, which I think is a good thing. 732 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 1: I hope you liked my chat with Adam about burnout, 733 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: and if you know someone who might be in need 734 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: of hearing these strategies to help cope with stress and burnout, 735 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: please share this episode with them by clicking on the 736 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,840 Speaker 1: share icon. Wherever you listen to this podcast from To 737 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 1: find out more about Adam, pop on to Adamgrant dot 738 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: net and his latest book, Hidden Potential is out and 739 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: out wherever you buy books. If you like today's show, 740 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: make sure you hit follow on your podcast app to 741 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: be alerted when new episodes drop. How I Work was 742 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 1: recorded on the traditional land of the Warrenery people, part 743 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: of the Kulan nation. A big thank you to my 744 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: editor Rowena Murray and Martin Imma for doing the sound mix.