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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for.

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Speaker 2: The time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 1: Now, meaning and purpose.

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Speaker 3: It seems that when we look at our children and

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Speaker 3: feel that they are bringing meaning and purpose into our lives,

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Speaker 3: no matter how negatively they can affect our overall experience.

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Speaker 1: Of happiness, they still boost our well being. And now

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Speaker 1: here's the stars of our show, my mum and dad.

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Speaker 3: So this is going to be a fun and somewhat

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Speaker 3: provocative conversation.

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Speaker 1: This is doctor Justin Coulson.

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Speaker 3: I'm the founder at Happy Families dot com dot you,

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Speaker 3: and the parenting expert and co host of Channel Line's

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Speaker 3: Parental Guidance, returning soon with season two.

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Speaker 1: I'm here with Kylie, my.

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Speaker 3: Wife, podcast host, partner and mum to our six kids. Hey, Kylie,

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Speaker 3: at what point did you realize that being a mum

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Speaker 3: was not actually going to make you happy?

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Speaker 1: Seriously?

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Speaker 4: Like, I think it was about day five as we

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Speaker 4: drove out that hospital driveway and our baby, who had

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Speaker 4: literally slept and fed so beautifully for the first five days,

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Speaker 4: started crying and she didn't stop.

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Speaker 3: For about nine monets, for about nine months, maybe longer,

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Speaker 3: I mean, and the pain that she inflicted on our

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Speaker 3: family did not stop until well, actually, I don't want

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Speaker 3: I don't.

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Speaker 1: Want to throw our daughter in the deep end here.

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Speaker 1: Let's just say that she's very.

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Speaker 2: Proud of the fact that she's taught us lots and

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Speaker 2: lots in her.

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Speaker 1: Lifetime about how to be a better parent. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: all the strain and stress.

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Speaker 3: The Harvard psychologist Dan Gilbert, he talks about when the

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Speaker 3: kids leave home and you become an empty nester, and

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Speaker 3: he says the number one symptom of empty nesters is

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Speaker 3: non stop smilingly. It just feels so good when they leave,

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Speaker 3: which we're not supposed to say. I mean, this is

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Speaker 3: the Happy Family's podcast. We're supposed to be talking about

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Speaker 3: how good it feels to have kids. But well, you.

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Speaker 4: Know, you've done a PhD on the whole topic, and

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Speaker 4: it's really intriguing. You know, the research is really clear

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Speaker 4: that when children are born, our happiness levels decrease.

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Speaker 2: That are this druble.

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Speaker 3: Well, actually, hang on to said, I've got to interrupt

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Speaker 3: you there, because that's not actually what the research shows exactly.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you're on the right track, But the moment

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Speaker 3: when that baby is born, I mean, kinlie, I remember

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Speaker 3: being at the birth of each of our children, and

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Speaker 3: standing there sobbing as I stared at you and said,

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Speaker 3: you're the most amazing person in the world, and I

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Speaker 3: can't believe what you've sacrificed and how incredible you are.

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Speaker 3: And look at this baby, this little bundle of perfection,

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Speaker 3: and we've wept together and we've held this baby, and

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Speaker 3: we said.

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Speaker 2: That didn't last very long. Although I remember, is you

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Speaker 2: winged about how sore your arms were after having a

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Speaker 2: massage my bag.

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Speaker 3: My massage your back for like two days straight in

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Speaker 3: one of those labors. You don't know what pain is. Anyway,

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Speaker 3: I have bruises to prove well, you were asking for

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Speaker 3: me to massage your back.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't trying to bruise you anyway.

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Speaker 3: The thing is, we were looking at each other and

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Speaker 3: I remember saying something along the lines of it doesn't

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Speaker 3: get any better than this, and as you're right.

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Speaker 1: A couple of days that was about the peak. It's

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Speaker 1: all downhill from it. I mean, we jest, but you

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Speaker 1: think about it.

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Speaker 3: The number of questions that we get via podcasts at

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Speaker 3: happy Families dot com dot au, the feedback that we

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Speaker 3: get on Facebook, the conversations that I have with parents.

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Speaker 3: When I'm presenting in webinars or live events, parents are

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Speaker 3: consistently saying, I'm worried, I'm stressed, I'm fearful.

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Speaker 1: This is hard. I never thought it would be like this.

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Speaker 3: Parenting seems to be a never ending downward spiral of fear, anxiety, stress,

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Speaker 3: and sadness, if you want to look at it in

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Speaker 3: that way. And I think we need to have an

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Speaker 3: honest conversation about it, because what was it with our

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Speaker 3: kids in the first three, six, twelve months. What were

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Speaker 3: the things that realisted about to you that made things

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Speaker 3: hard and made us unhappy.

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Speaker 4: The top of the list would have been sleep deprivation,

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Speaker 4: like complete and utter exhaustion, and then the fact that

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Speaker 4: we'd gone from you know, this, this full honeymoon state

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Speaker 4: of marriage where it was just you and I and

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Speaker 4: we didn't have to share ourselves with anyone else.

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Speaker 1: Sleeping in. Do you remember sleeping in? I'm just saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: you never let me sleep in. Actually I didn't.

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Speaker 3: We used to get up and go down to the

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Speaker 3: beach at Yrpoon when we were living in Rocky and

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Speaker 3: we did all sorts of activities down the boat.

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Speaker 1: We got to do that, We got to choose to

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Speaker 1: wake up early. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, once you have kids, Is it wake up time yet?

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Speaker 3: And it's three o'clock in the morning, Yeah, daddy, is

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Speaker 3: it time to get up yet?

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Speaker 1: No, it's not time to get up.

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Speaker 4: But there's also the physical strain on your body, you know,

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Speaker 4: there's just the lack of opportunity to be together as

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Speaker 4: a couple and to spend intimate time together. You're exhausted,

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Speaker 4: but you're still crave to be in each other's space

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Speaker 4: and to have you know, uninterrupted conversation. There's you know,

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Speaker 4: financial strain because for many of us we end up

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Speaker 4: leaving work to have children, and then the strain that.

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Speaker 2: That puts on families. But there's lots going on.

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Speaker 3: And that's just in the first few months, and not

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Speaker 3: to mention things like mastitis and you've got your post

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Speaker 3: birth pains, and it's like, hang on, this was supposed

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Speaker 3: to be the pinnacle, and it kind of is, and

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Speaker 3: then it gets really hard. But then over the subsequent years,

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Speaker 3: as the kids get older, you start to deal with

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Speaker 3: i don't know, like sibling challenges and you find out

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Speaker 3: that there are some health issues or there are learning difficulties.

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Speaker 3: They get to school and they can't make any friends

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Speaker 3: like it continues to be hard, doesn't it. At no

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Speaker 3: point do parents ever sort of say to me, this

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Speaker 3: turned out being a lot easier than I imagined.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think you know, you add depression or anxiety

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Speaker 2: or any other number of health challenges to the mix,

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Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, it's just a really big

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Speaker 2: challenging space that can often feel like you're in a

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Speaker 2: big black hole.

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Speaker 3: Don't we sound like down as actually? If I can

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Speaker 3: just pick up on that point though, And I know

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Speaker 3: we've made a little bit of a joke about some

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Speaker 3: of these things, but research studies have shown that when

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Speaker 3: a child is born, parents actually measurably experience a decrease

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Speaker 3: in happiness. Marital satisfaction often drops, and that usually doesn't

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Speaker 3: recover for many, many years.

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Speaker 1: In some cases.

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Speaker 3: What we find is that children provoke arguments among couples.

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Speaker 1: How do we discipline them? What are we going to do.

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Speaker 3: About how many extracurricular activities we go to pay for?

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Speaker 3: And how much stress we're going to bring into our

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Speaker 3: lives because of this kid.

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Speaker 1: More than money, more.

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Speaker 3: Than work, more than in laws, more than annoying personal habits,

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Speaker 3: more than communications styles, more than leisure activities, commitment issues,

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Speaker 3: bothersome friends, sex. I'm quoting Jennifer Senior here in her

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Speaker 3: book All Join, No Fun, and she basically says, as

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Speaker 3: the kids that provoke our most frequent arguments. And if

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Speaker 3: you're not sure if that's true or not, spend a

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Speaker 3: full day with an angry two year old or an

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Speaker 3: upset fifteen year old and you find out what she

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Speaker 3: means soon because these conversations, I mean, you and I,

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Speaker 3: we have conversations every day about the kids and their

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Speaker 3: social media or screen news, or the way they're treating

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Speaker 3: their sisters, or the way they're talking back to us.

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Speaker 3: Children provide NonStop conversation points for parents, and the conversations

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Speaker 3: always pleasing.

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Speaker 2: Children of the conversation list at the dinner table, what.

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Speaker 1: Would we have to talk about?

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Speaker 3: So, now that we've had this depressing conversation about how

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Speaker 3: kids really do ruin your life, it's not actually true,

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Speaker 3: even though the research says that it is true. There

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Speaker 3: is some there are some really interesting ways that we

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Speaker 3: can respond to what the research shows to help us

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Speaker 3: to find the real joy in family life.

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Speaker 1: And we're going to talk about that right after the break.

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Speaker 1: It's the happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 5: Imagine a home where discipline got results without anyone having

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Speaker 5: to feel bad or in trouble. The do's and don'ts

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Speaker 5: of Disciplined as a webinar to help parents set limits

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Speaker 5: with love, compassion, humanity. Find it now at happy families

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Speaker 5: dot com dot au slash shop.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 2: poor parent who just wants answers now And I'm wondering

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Speaker 2: if happiness is actually what we're looking for Doctor Justin.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's a really really important question to ask because

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Speaker 3: most parents, when they're asked about having children, will say

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Speaker 3: that it's one of the best things that they've ever

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Speaker 3: done in their lives, which is kind.

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Speaker 1: Of strange, because not happy, that's right.

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Speaker 3: I'm curious as to why parents say that rather than

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Speaker 3: it's one of my great regrets. And yet when I

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Speaker 3: and by the way, the research shows that the more

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Speaker 3: kids you have, the harder life gets you. And I

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Speaker 3: have six children. You'd think we would have learned after

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Speaker 3: one or two, but no, we kept on going and

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Speaker 3: six kids across fifteen years. It really does turn life

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Speaker 3: into to one great, big, challenging adventure. So I think

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Speaker 3: that there are a few plausible reasons, a few useful

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Speaker 3: ways for us to navigate this. And you found an

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Speaker 3: article online in the Atlantic that asks a really important question.

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Speaker 2: He poses this question, what if the rewards of having

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Speaker 2: children are different from and deeper than happiness.

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Speaker 1: Wow? That's deep, isn't it. I mean, what an important question.

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Speaker 4: I think about the times when I'm happy, and I

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Speaker 4: kind of feel like they're quite fleeting moments. I don't

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Speaker 4: feel like happy is something that I would describe about

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Speaker 4: my life in general or in my day to day happenings.

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Speaker 4: But I feel really happy when I'm eating my favorite

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Speaker 4: ice cream. Or I can feel really happy in a

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Speaker 4: moment when I look into your eyes and I see

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Speaker 4: you looking back at me lovingly. Or I can feel happy,

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Speaker 4: you know, walking along the beach. But those moments are fleeting.

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Speaker 4: They don't stay with me for very long.

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Speaker 3: Colie, I love the way that you said that, And

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Speaker 3: what you're really getting at is that happiness is an emotion.

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Speaker 3: Emotions come and go. They're like waves on the ocean shore.

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Speaker 3: They come and they go, and we're happy and then

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Speaker 3: we're content, and then we're blissful, and then we're frustrated,

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Speaker 3: and then we're stressed, and then we're happy again and

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Speaker 3: we're feeling relieved. These emotions they come and go throughout

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Speaker 3: our day, and they give us information that help us

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Speaker 3: to adjust what we're doing because we always seek comfort.

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Speaker 3: Of course, having children doesn't make you comfortable. But there's something,

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Speaker 3: like you said, something deeper than happiness, something that's more pervasive,

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Speaker 3: more more stable than happiness, which is that fleeting emotion.

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Speaker 3: And psychological research is call this life satisfaction. And life

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Speaker 3: satisfaction isn't something that's fleeting. It's a more stable view.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of like well being. It's how we feel

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Speaker 3: on average most of the time, even though there's the

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Speaker 3: peaks and the troughs, the waves that come in and

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Speaker 3: go back out. Life satisfaction is in general, I feel

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Speaker 3: good about my life or I feel lows about my life.

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Speaker 3: And the interesting thing is, no matter how tedious and

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Speaker 3: tiring children can be, they improve our life satisfaction. They

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Speaker 3: improve our well being. Even though they exhaust us, and

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Speaker 3: even though they've got these diagnoses or they've got these

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Speaker 3: problems at school and they're not learning well and they're

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Speaker 3: not progressing according to the developmental milestones, even with all

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Speaker 3: of that, they increase our sense of life satisfaction for

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Speaker 3: one key reason, and that is meaning and purpose. It

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Speaker 3: seems that when we look at our children and feel

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Speaker 3: that they are bringing meaning and purpose into our lives,

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Speaker 3: no matter how negatively they can affect our overall experience

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Speaker 3: of happiness, they still boost our well being. There's something generative,

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Speaker 3: there's something deeper, something so meaningful about having kids that

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Speaker 3: makes that happiness inconsequential compared to the satisfaction we feel.

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Speaker 4: You know, we laughed about it at the beginning of

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Speaker 4: the podcast and talked about how it was about day

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Speaker 4: five for us that we realized that life was not

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Speaker 4: going to be everything we had hoped and expected for.

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Speaker 4: But I remember just that feeling and sense of meaning

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Speaker 4: and purpose that arrived the moment that baby was placed

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Speaker 4: in my arms, and how that changed my entire perspective

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Speaker 4: about life in general. I had enjoyed a beautiful, beautiful

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Speaker 4: life before we had children, but I found a sense

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Speaker 4: of purpose and a sense of meaning that I had

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Speaker 4: never understood until that moment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like a richness.

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Speaker 3: I'm just wondering, though, you said when that child was

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Speaker 3: placed into your arms, of the six child.

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Speaker 1: Which child?

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Speaker 4: What are you talking about let's just give Really, we

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Speaker 4: visited that each moment because pretty much your description of

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Speaker 4: that first birth was revisited five more times.

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Speaker 3: Well, I was curious, what makes you think it was

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Speaker 3: the first birth I was talking about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly right. You cried at all of them.

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Speaker 1: I know you had to bring that up. Thanks so much.

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Speaker 1: Let's wrap this up. Our conversation is to finish here.

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Speaker 3: The research is clear having children is not good for

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Speaker 3: your happiness, particularly in countries where there is less support

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Speaker 3: for parents in a structural and societal way. But sometimes

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Speaker 3: we need to remember that there's more to life than happiness.

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Speaker 3: We're talking about something deeper, satisfaction and purpose and meaning.

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Speaker 3: And when you ask people about their life's meaning and purpose,

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Speaker 3: parents in the research consistently say that their lives have

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Speaker 3: more meaning.

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Speaker 1: Than those of nonparents.

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Speaker 3: There was a study by Roy Baumeister, who you and

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Speaker 3: I have had Roy and his wife Diane in our

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Speaker 3: home for dinner. I mean, just one of the world's

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Speaker 3: foremost psychological research is and such a lovely guy. And

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Speaker 3: he found that the more time people spent taking care

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Speaker 3: of their children, and the more meaningful they said their

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Speaker 3: life was, even though they reported that their life was

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Speaker 3: no happier. I think that's really what the purpose of

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Speaker 3: this podcast is. Whether your kids make you happy or not,

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Speaker 3: it's kind of not the point.

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Speaker 1: They enrich your life.

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Speaker 3: They make it more meaningful, and spending time with them

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Speaker 3: is the magic pill. It's the silver board, it's the

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Speaker 3: thing that makes it work. So the take home message

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Speaker 3: kids may not be the most fun all the time.

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Speaker 3: They may be a drag on your well being, but

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Speaker 3: they can make you rich, they can make life meaningful,

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Speaker 3: and over time, especially once they move out and you

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Speaker 3: get to watch them from a distance, they really do

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Speaker 3: make you happy.

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Speaker 1: We really hope that you enjoyed this.

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Speaker 3: Conversation and that has given you some insights around my

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Speaker 3: family life feels the way that it does sometimes, and

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Speaker 3: if you're not loving family life all the time, maybe

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Speaker 3: you don't need to feel so guilty about it now,

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Speaker 3: because the research shows you're not necessarily supposed to. The

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Speaker 3: Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge

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Speaker 3: Media and Craig Bruce is our executive producer. Thanks so

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Speaker 3: much for listening. If you enjoy the podcast, could you

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Speaker 3: please do something for us? Jump onto podcasts and leave

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Speaker 3: a five star rating and review. When you do that,

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Speaker 3: other people find out about the podcast, and we get

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Speaker 3: to enjoy including them into these conversations and making their

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Speaker 3: families happier and always, we welcome your feedback via podcasts

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Speaker 3: at happy families dot com dot au. If you'd like

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Speaker 3: more and FO about making your family happier, and particularly

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Speaker 3: if you like more and FO about our upcoming Bringing

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Speaker 3: Up Boys Summit, please visit us at happy Families dot

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Speaker 3: com dot au