WEBVTT - FULL: Christian’s Interview with David Whyte 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.080 Hey, this is Christian O'Connell and this is a very 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:06.640 different kind of conversation for me to share, but one 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:11.080 I am so excited to be sharing with you. It's 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:15.720 with David White. Now he might not be a household name, 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:18.279 but over the last couple of months you might have 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:22.240 heard him on Tim Ferris's podcast, also on the music 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:26.080 Producer's Brilliant podcast, Rick Ruben, You've had people like Liz 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:30.240 Gilbert raving about his work. David White had a really 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:33.160 big and still dance big impact in my life as 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:37.839 a speaker, as a dad, and how I understand myself 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:40.800 and what it is to be alive. I came across 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:43.720 his work when I first moved here seven years ago 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:48.360 to Australia, and man, I really needed it. He's a poet, 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:52.000 but I think he's more of a philosopher, and I 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:57.360 can't think of anybody else that I've heard speak about 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:01.320 what it is to be us and make sense of 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:06.800 our joy, our heartache, our pain, our passion, our purpose 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:10.600 in a way that you just get. He just has 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:15.160 a way with words. He's quite incredible, and so that 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:17.959 two years ago, when I was turning fifty, I wanted 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:20.400 only do one thing. He does these walking tours all 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:23.720 over the world, and so I went to Western Island 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:26.920 all the way from Melbourne, a twenty three and a 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:29.920 half hour flight, and I went back to Western Ireland, 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:33.000 which is where my ancestors are from going back many 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:36.039 hundreds of years, and I did a walking tour with 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:38.800 thirty five other strangers from all over the world, mainly 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:43.000 crazy Americans, and had an amazing, a really genuinely incredible 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:45.679 week and actually got to know David and spent a 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:47.880 bit of time walking with him, talking with him, and 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:52.280 drinking Irish whiskey and guinness every evening in the pub 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:53.840 with him as well. So I was very excited when 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:56.440 he was here in Australia. And you can find out 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.400 more about going and see him at his website. But yeah, 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:02.280 I hope you really enjoy this conversation. We go into 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:05.680 quite a few interesting areas my conversation with the Great 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:09.200 David White, got anything good? 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:14.040 Hey, this is the Christian O'Connell show podcast. 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:19.679 David, A great joy to be with you again. The 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:22.160 last time we were together in Ireland, when I was 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:25.720 there with thirty five other strangers and light minded souls 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:28.679 all over the world in Western Ireland. But actually i'd 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:30.639 love you to know how I first came across your work. 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:35.560 Seven years ago. I just moved to Australia and it 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:37.760 was a lot. It was a lot to set up 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:39.600 a new life. My wife and I had no idea 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:40.919 what it would be like to set up a new life. 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:43.880 We didn't know anyone here in Australia. So my wife said, 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:46.040 why don't you go on a retreat. I've never been 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:48.520 on a retreat in my life. And I suddenly went 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:50.880 on this retreat and I was the only man. There 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:54.480 were thirteen women and there many of them were getting 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:58.559 over breakups and people like me a man, or processing 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:02.040 issues with their dad. So I was representing men. So 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:05.720 there's a lot of energy there. And the woman facilitating this, 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:08.800 this amazing woman. She said, look, before we get into 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:11.160 the work this week, I'm going to open with the poem. 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:13.280 And I have to be honest. Before that moment, I 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:17.480 hadn't really felt the benefit of poetry. I thought, really 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:21.080 it was the domain of academics. And I was like, 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:24.079 oh God, here we go a poem. And then suddenly 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:27.120 she played a recording of the voice I know as yours, 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:30.320 and it was the first couple of lines in this 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:34.280 high place. It is as simple as this, and I'd 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:37.920 never received poetry like that, and I had a physical reaction. 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:40.920 You got to the last line of the poem about 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:42.839 the true shape of your own face, and I don't 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:46.720 know what happened. I found myself shaking and sobbing. And 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:49.160 this was right at the start of the retreat, and 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:50.960 I was trying as hard as I could not to 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:54.280 have this physical reaction to a poem. The rest of 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:58.600 the ladies were looking round at me, like, what's happening here? 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:03.680 And that was it. I became obsessed with finding out 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:06.880 who you were. And since then it's it's opened my 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:10.200 it's opened my heart actually to the wonder of poetry. 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:12.839 But really I always come back to your work, which 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:16.560 has deeply been a great companion of friendship, I think 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:17.800 with me over the last couple of. 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:21.159 Years, David Bravas. And that's why we write them, of course. 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:25.320 I mean, there are ways of overhearing yourself say things 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:28.799 you didn't know. You knew when you're first writing poetry. 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:32.200 If it's good poetry, it's surprising you're in new territory. 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:39.120 It's a bit like those those arguments you have domestic arguments, 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:42.000 I mean good domestic arguments where you suddenly find yourself 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:46.840 articulating something in your marriage or your relationship that you 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:51.160 hadn't until you were on your emotional edge. And once 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:53.400 you've once you've said it, you're in new territory and 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:57.520 you can't go back. That parm you you recited is 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:01.160 called Tillico Lake, and I actually it comes from an 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:03.680 experience I had on my own edge when I was 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:07.800 up high in the Himalayas eighteen thousand foot pass and 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:11.719 I was coming down with mountain sickness. I was starting 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:19.240 to hallucinate, and I just with the weather and everything, 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:24.160 everything had just been too hard. And I had this powerful, 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:30.560 powerful invitational experience to leave the trail and go off 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:33.960 of the ridges towards this great snow lake as it 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:38.640 was called, or Tillico Lake. And I had to use 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:40.839 all my wool power to stay on the trail actually, 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:43.560 or I would have died actually up on those ridges. 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:45.440 But it was a very powerful feeling. It was some 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:48.360 kind of longing. And the whole poem is in this 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:53.120 high place. Well afterwards we got down finally, when we 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:55.919 got down lower and the mountain sickness disappeared. With the 0:05:56.760 --> 0:06:00.520 being able to breathe more air. We all fell sleep 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:04.839 in this pesture that was full of piles of yakdang. 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:08.440 Actually I remember sleeping between the piles of yakdan and 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:11.800 when I was sleeping, I had this dream of arriving 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:14.360 at the side of Tillico Lake. So it's a very 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:18.120 short onm you mentioned the first and last line in 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:21.760 this high place, it is as simple as this, Leave 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:27.599 everything you know behind, step toward the cold surface, say 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:32.359 the old prayer of rough love, and open both arms. 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:38.479 Those who come with empty hands will stare into the lake, astonished. 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:44.040 There in the cold light, reflecting pure snow, the true shape, 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:48.279 the true shape of your own face. The sense I 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:52.440 had in the dream of suddenly seeing I knew me. 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:57.240 Actually that was emerging. And the interesting thing is the 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:01.520 way we mature as human beings is from the inside out. 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:01.839 You know. 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:06.240 We have all these outside experiences, but they're affecting us 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:09.360 at a very very deep core. And I often think 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:11.840 there's a part of us which has always gone ahead 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:15.160 of us, as matured at a much higher rate than 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:18.920 our outer surface self, that is caught up in all 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:23.600 the little imprisonments and besiegements of our of the way 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:27.760 we've put together our life, and quite often, you know, 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:31.440 getting below the horizon of what you think, you know, 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:35.080 you suddenly come across this part of you that's actually 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:38.800 matured way ahead of your present life. And one of 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:41.080 the reasons we won't look in there is we know 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:44.520 that when we do that, our present peripheral life will 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:47.880 fall apart actually or be undone, and we don't know 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:49.720 whether it will be put together in the same way 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:52.559 or not. And so it's one of the reasons we're 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:56.760 rightly afraid of going in there, rightly afraid of writing, 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:01.040 you know, the lines that will speak from that place, 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:05.960 and in some ways rightly afraid of hearing it. You know, 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:09.840 it's one of the reasons where we intuitively know that 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:17.560 good poetry represents something insiders, that is, as a kind 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:22.680 of moveability beyond our are often rigid surface lives. 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:25.680 Yeah, you're right, it touches. There's some opening. It opens 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:27.680 up parts of us I guess that have been thought 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:30.440 or I don't know, you've lost contact with. And it's 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:33.000 funny how I've often thought about the energy of some 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:38.040 of your work, and obviously what you're shaping and connecting 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:42.199 to in you as the poem emerges, and then how 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:44.320 we receive it, because you're talking about what was going 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:47.000 on for you and what that poem represents the energy 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:49.520 inside it. And for me it was you know, I'd 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:51.640 literally had just move the other side of the world 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:54.880 and I had to leave everything behind, everything that I 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:58.520 had left behind in the UK, my mum, dad, a job, friends, 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:02.800 everything at our family home, and it was refinding some 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:06.400 new version of myself here in Australia. And I hadn't 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:09.160 really thought about it actually until you're talking about what 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:12.840 was happening for you when that emerged. How does your 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:16.240 relationship with your your palms change over the years as 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:18.840 you do, Does it remain the same what that means 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:20.640 to you now? For example, No. 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:22.880 I mean a good palm. If it is good, it's 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:26.200 a living thing. You know, it's not about something. It 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:29.240 is the thing itself, So it has its own life 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:32.880 and so it matures also. And you hear it from 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:37.199 other people's mouths, just as I heard that that little 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:42.959 palm from your mouth. It opens up new levels and 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:46.880 new understandings. You know, I have hundreds of palms memorized, 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:53.040 and that's how I work on stage and are online, 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:58.079 and I'll often work with a palm for years and years, 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:03.679 and then suddenly a new level will open up just 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:07.800 because it coincides or has a kind of symmetry with 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:12.840 something that's occurring in my emotional maturation or in my 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:16.440 inner life, or in some form of vulnerability. I'm feeling 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:21.360 at that threshold in my existence. So the poems and 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:24.440 other palms are companions. They're like friends. You think you 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:26.880 know them and then they always surprise you. 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:29.480 At one time a good friend yeahs, like a good 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:32.480 friend does, yes, I think you know where you are 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:34.320 with them, and then all of a sudden they surprise you, 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:36.920 will challenge you in some way, and they're revealed something 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:38.800 maybe you didn't know about yourself. Well you didn't want 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.560 you didn't want to admit about yourself. There was a 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:44.360 one poem last year my mother in law died suddenly 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:47.200 and my wife was obviously heartbroken. She said, would you 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:50.640 do the eulogy? And I've never done a eulogy, And 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:53.840 it's a deep honor to do somebody's eulogy in try 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.719 and bring their life and their essence into words. And 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:00.880 I found it very hard actually actually putting eulogy together 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:03.480 and thinking, how do I best do this and talk 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:05.800 about the amazing life of my mother in law? And 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:09.000 what I did is I interviewed all the family and 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:12.199 got their stories about this marvelous woman, and then, using 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:14.880 the words that kept coming up, I put it together 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:18.320 them to the EUUGI, using everyone's words about her. But 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:21.679 about two nights beforehand, I couldn't end this eulogy, and 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:24.559 so before I went to bed, I sort of intuited. 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:26.600 This sounds crazy, but I think you and I what 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:29.320 I said to my mother in law, I'm really struggling 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:33.520 about how to end your eulogy. I need your help. Please, 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:37.760 could you just give me some clue. I'm missing somebody's voice. 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:39.760 It's yours. I don't know how to end this with 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:42.480 your voice. You're not here and we didn't know you 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:44.000 were going to go that. I don't know how to 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:47.400 end your own eulogy. During the night, I was visited 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:50.200 in a dream by her. She did, and she was saying, 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:52.440 do you remember when you came back from Ireland? And 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:54.760 he'd been on David's walking tour, and I was full 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:56.520 of your poems and I was talking about the people 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:59.800 I'd met and quoting lines of yours, and she said, 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:02.840 you told me about this pom you wrote about your 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:04.640 mom when you lost your mom. Here you were very 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:09.120 very close to the farewell letter. And I woke up 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:13.080 in the morning, very early, actually getting goosebumpser telling you this. 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:15.320 I woke up on in my I don't remember. I 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:18.360 know so many of your poems, I don't remember the 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:20.200 farewell letter. And I went on to Google and I 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:24.920 found it and I literally I started crying because I 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:28.839 knew this is what you want to say. Oh I did, 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:31.880 so I ended the eulogy with the farewell letter, and 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:35.640 I don't think afterwards people going where did you get 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:38.920 that power from? It just destroyed me in the right way. 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.800 And it's such a I think it's an amazing, amazing 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:47.120 testimony to love and letting somebody go. And it feels 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:49.360 like a hymn and a conversation. The farewell letter. 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:54.280 David, Yes, yeah, I wrote that after my mother, my 0:12:54.360 --> 0:13:00.720 Irish mother had passed, and you know, being the firstborn 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:04.640 son of an Irish mother, you have this you feel 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:12.400 blessed by reality and by garden, by everything, and so 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:16.840 when she went, I felt this incredible absence and vacancy. 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:20.640 And what was really disturbing was I had this sense 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:26.040 that my mother was was actually concerned with other things 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:29.280 now and not with her son or her daughters. She 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:32.640 was not a mother anymore. Actually she was she was 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:36.360 on to greater things, and it was it was quite remarkable. 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:40.000 And I had this series of experiences of having dreams 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.840 where I would I would be just about to find 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:46.160 out what my mother was up to and where she was, 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:51.360 and then I would wake up and had I had 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:55.240 the dream that appears in the poem actually where she 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:58.760 was sat on her old bench by her roses. She 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:01.440 had these beautiful red roses as Dublin Bay roses is 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:05.200 the name of the variety. I have them now at 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:08.160 my house where I live, in memory of her. But 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:12.880 she was sat there, you know, all of her later years. 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:16.000 And in the dream, I was suddenly sat there and 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.000 I had a letter from her. And in the dream, 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:22.120 as you do in a dream, I knew that when 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:24.720 I opened this envelope, I would find out everything about 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:26.560 where she was and what she was up to. And 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:29.720 I was so happy in the dream. But of course 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:34.360 I came to open the envelope in the in the dream, 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:37.640 and that was the moment I woke up, and I 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:41.640 was so appalled, and I tried to get back to sleep. 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:43.520 I tried to put my head back in the same place, 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.000 close my eyes. It was no good. And I said, 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:50.600 you know, you already know what your mother would say 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:56.680 to you, and just go now to just go now 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:00.240 to the kitchen table and write the letter that your 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:02.840 mother wrote you in that envelope. So I didn't. That's 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:05.960 the farewell letter? Shall I read it? 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:08.440 Oh my god, I would love that if it's okay 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:10.000 for you. I don't want to bring up some sad 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:11.120 times in your life. 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:14.280 Oh no, it was a wonderful time. So a volume 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:20.560 called Everything Is Waiting for You Farewell Letter. One thing 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:24.080 to know was that my mother lost her own mother 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:26.960 when she was thirteen, and that was the end of 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:31.600 my mother's childhood really, and the family was split apart 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:35.560 by the bad old church in Ireland, and my mother 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:38.200 had to flee with her sister at fifteen years old 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:43.720 to England to get out of their clutches. And so 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:47.640 my mother's mother appears in this too farewell letter. She 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:50.840 wrote me a letter after her death, and I remember 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:54.200 a kind of happy light falling on the envelope as 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:57.080 I sat by the rose tree on her old bench 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:00.800 at the back door, so surprised by its arrival, wondering 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:03.880 what she would say, looking up before I could open it, 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:09.720 and laughing to myself in silent expectation. Dear son, dear son, 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:14.040 it is time for me to leave you. I am 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:17.280 afraid that the words you are used to hearing are 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.480 no longer mine to give. They're gone and mingled back 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:23.400 in the world, where it's no longer in my power 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:27.920 to be their first original author nor their last loving bearer. 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:32.680 You can hear motherly words of affection now only from 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:36.920 your own mouth, and only when you speak them to 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:42.240 those who stand motherless before you. You can hear motherly 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:46.160 words of affection now only from your own mouth, and 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:49.400 only when you speak to them, and only when you 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:54.920 speak them to those who stand motherless before you. As 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:59.960 for me, I must forsake adulthood and be bound gladly 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:04.880 to a new childhood. You must understand this apprenticeship demands 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:08.960 of me an elemental innocence from everything I ever held 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:13.600 in my hands. I know your generous soul is well 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:15.640 able to let me go. You can only have your 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:18.600 mother say something about you like that in a pot. 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:22.680 I know your generous soul is well able to let 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:25.440 me go. I know your generous soul is well able 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:27.960 to let me go. You will, in the end be 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:32.360 happy to know my God was true. And I find myself, 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:36.760 after loving you all for so long in the wide, 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:43.480 infinite mercy of being mothered myself. Ps. All of your 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:46.359 intuitions were true. 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:49.119 I am once more moved to tears here in that. 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:52.960 It's a beautiful, beautiful. There's a generosity in it, hearing 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:56.760 you read it. There's a generosity in actually letting someone go, 0:17:56.800 --> 0:18:00.560 which is actually a very hard invitation in in grief 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:02.600 because as a part of you it doesn't want it 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:04.639 to have happened. You want to see the person again, 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:09.280 and she resists that for so long. And there's a 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:12.120 generosity in that, David, where you know you allow your 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:13.520 mom to be mothered again. 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:16.920 It's beautiful, yes, And we have all heard of the 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:20.960 dynamic or experience it ourselves at the bedsides of the dying, 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:26.360 where when you're holding onto them so tightly, they actually 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:29.600 find it hard to go. And it's often when people 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.000 leave the room for a moment. I mean, nurses talk 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:34.640 about this again. And it's often when the family leaves 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:37.600 the room to get a cup of tea or coffee 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:42.480 that they'll take the opportunity to slip away. And we do. 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:47.560 We hold people as they're dying because we're afraid of 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:50.640 their death more often, quite often more afraid of their 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:54.280 death than they are themselves. Actually so interested at the end. Yeah, 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:58.640 and then we hold them afterwards too, in a way 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:02.600 in which we're not allowing them to be free. We're 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:05.840 not allowing them to go off and have not only 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:08.680 their own life, but their own death in a way. 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:12.040 And so, but that's all part of the grieving process. 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:15.560 I always say there's only one cure for grief, and 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:19.040 that's grief itself. You know, it's feeling it to its 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:20.240 very very bottom. 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:22.679 Yeah, it's a very painful truth, isn't it. And you 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:25.480 actually only get to really understand it when you are grieving, 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:27.439 and there is You're right, there's no I think one 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:29.919 of the greatest pains in our life and being human 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:32.879 is is unexpressed and unfelt grief. 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:36.280 What's strange about it is that it's a kind of intimacy. 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:42.320 It's it's in your grief you're actually feeling the hole 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:45.000 that they left in your life and in others' life, 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:49.280 so you're actually you're actually feeling what their gift was 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:56.720 simply by it not being there. The Great Dominique and 0:19:56.800 --> 0:20:01.360 mystic of the European Dominique. In Mystic of the thirteenth century, 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:05.639 Master Eckert was once that was once asked what God was, 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:09.640 and he said, God is pure absence. What you need 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:13.760 to be in an advanced day to understand that. Yes, really, 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:18.680 he's really saying that we experience almost everything through distance 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:22.639 or the inverse calibration of how close we are. You know, 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:26.080 quite often in a relationship, we won't measure how we're 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:28.600 doing by how intimate we are. We'll say, oh, we're 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:32.359 not too far apart today, we're not doing too badly. 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:39.840 And so human beings often often find their way through 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:44.400 what is absent in their life, and part of the 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:48.040 task of poetry is to articulate that absence in your 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:52.760 own life, so that so that you can start moving 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:57.000 along that excess of invitation that the absence is causing. 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:01.919 And we call it longing, and we think of longing 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:04.960 as mooning about, but actually longing is this kind of 0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:09.879 gravitational poll which is inviting you to move along it 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:14.600 to the horizon where you will understand why you were 0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:15.919 invited in the first place. 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:19.200 And do you think that gravitational poll that you speak 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:23.280 of is that the journey inwards to discover and find 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:24.520 more of our true self? 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:28.080 Yeah. I think we're all born with a certain kind 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:33.600 of felt absence, and it's germane to the way each 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:37.080 of us holds the conversation of life in such an 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:41.560 incredibly unique way. It's incredible to think that every human 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:45.040 being is the representation of a conversation which has never 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:48.920 quite occurred in the whole history of time and will 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:52.560 never again occur. And that's why in all of our 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:56.600 theologies on this earth, an individual life is seen as 0:21:57.400 --> 0:22:04.200 unique and sacred because of that. You may share commonalities 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:07.720 with other people, but those commonalities are caught in you, 0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:10.080 and caught in me, and caught in the listeners to 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:14.720 this show now in a way which has never quite 0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:22.280 never quite been constituted or constellated before. And so each 0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:29.320 of us is this unique threshold of experience. And it's 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:32.800 interesting to think that each of us is given a 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:36.199 relationship with what is missing in our life in a 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:42.080 unique way too. Everyone feels longing in a slightly different 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:48.120 way with a different coloration, and everyone's longing is quite 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:53.679 unique and you can never name it because part of 0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:56.760 the journey is actually finding out for yourself. You know, 0:22:56.800 --> 0:22:59.800 when you're when our children leave the door at a 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:04.280 teen years old or twenty years old, whatever it is, Yeah, 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:08.800 you suddenly realize you actually never knew who they really were, 0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:14.240 and how could you because that's what they're out in 0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:17.359 the world trying to find out themselves. So how could 0:23:17.359 --> 0:23:21.320 you know the essence of who they are? They're out 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:24.560 there and this astonishing pilgrimage trying to find it out 0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:25.280 for themselves. 0:23:25.320 --> 0:23:28.320 Yeah, and this is me right now. My r eighteen 0:23:28.400 --> 0:23:30.480 year old daughter leaves in a couple of days. Time 0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:32.920 she leaves home, she'd be the last daughter to leave home. 0:23:33.000 --> 0:23:35.520 And yeah, you're right, she's going out in the world 0:23:35.600 --> 0:23:38.600 to find out what she's about, who she is. And 0:23:38.680 --> 0:23:41.439 at fifty one, I think there's still some part of 0:23:41.480 --> 0:23:44.520 me that's still doing that as well. Yeah. They are 0:23:44.520 --> 0:23:47.959 a mystery, aren't you, aren't they? Yeah, it's a very 0:23:47.960 --> 0:23:50.120 big time. We're a big crossroads at the moment, David, 0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:52.359 my wife and I we've got this big we know 0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:55.520 that there's a big event happening Sunday, and it's almost 0:23:55.520 --> 0:23:58.720