1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: Hello there, it's Amantha. I'm currently on a break, so 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: I've handpicked a bunch of my favorite episodes from the 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: last year to share with you. Okay, on with today's 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:16,760 Speaker 1: best of episode. When you sit down at your desk 5 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: in the morning, what's the first task that you usually 6 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: find yourself seduced by? For most people, you sit down 7 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: and can very quickly find yourself answering emails and before 8 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: you know it, the day has taken off. But is 9 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: that really the best way to enter your day? What 10 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 1: if instead you were to spend a few minutes pondering 11 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: what you were going to release, what you were grateful. 12 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 2: For, and what you were going to focus on. 13 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: This just so happens to be the morning ritual of 14 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: Michael Bungay Stainer. He's the author of The Coaching Habit, 15 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: which has sold over one million copies worldwide, and spent 16 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: twenty years as the CEO of Coaching, an innovation consultancy, 17 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: Box of Crayons, and he's also the home of the 18 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: two Pages podcast. He is a huge advocate for doing 19 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: work that's not just good but great, which he covers 20 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: in his new book How to Begin, which you can 21 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: currently pre order ahead of its release in January twenty 22 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: twenty two. So how does Michael make sure that a 23 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,759 Speaker 1: new project is worthy of saying yes to? Why does 24 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: Michael set goals in six week chapters? And why should 25 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: you be creating an operating manual to use with new 26 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: colleagues or clients. My name is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm 27 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 28 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: And this is how I work a show about how. 29 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:48,639 Speaker 2: To help you do your best work. 30 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: Hey Michael, So you've done so many podcast episodes over 31 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: the years. How do you use those few minutes before 32 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: you hit record, Like when you're trying to build really 33 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: quickly with a guest. 34 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 3: You know, I scream at them and I say, if 35 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 3: you don't perform at a really high level in this podcast, you're. 36 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 4: Dead to me. 37 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 3: That's what I do exactly. I'm like, I'm terrified about 38 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 3: how this podcast is going to go. You know, I've 39 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 3: got a couple of things I try and do, and 40 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 3: it's varied over the years, But for the podcast that 41 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,839 Speaker 3: I have at the moment, I am trying to disrupt 42 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 3: the usual conversation that people have, particularly authors, because if 43 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 3: the author is on a bit of a podcast talk 44 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 3: because they're talking about a boat. They're kind of locked 45 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 3: and loaded into a couple of stories and a couple 46 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 3: of key messages. 47 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:36,839 Speaker 4: Yes, and I'm always. 48 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 3: Interested in trying to get something else from there. So 49 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 3: my podcast is called two Pages with MBS and it's 50 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 3: where brilliant people read the best two pages. 51 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 4: From a favorite book. 52 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 3: And I know my first ten minutes of that podcast 53 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 3: is to try and get my audience to feel a 54 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 3: connection to that person, and then the rest of the 55 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 3: podcast is them reading the book and then us talking 56 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 3: about the ideas and that. So in that before we 57 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 3: hit record, I'm like, first of all, permission to permission 58 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 3: to muck up because it is a produced podcast, so 59 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 3: my producer can take out gaps and pauses and stumbles 60 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 3: and the like. And then I say, look, here's roughly 61 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 3: how the structure of the calls. 62 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 4: Going to go. 63 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 3: So you'll you'll you'll know roughly the kind of the milestones. 64 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 3: You know, ten to fifteen minutes, we moved from your 65 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 3: story to asking about the book, and then I go, look, 66 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 3: I'm really interested in the slightly unexpected. So if you 67 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 3: see a story, tell me the story. If there's a 68 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 3: left hand turn you can take in the conversation. Take 69 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 3: the left hand turn because I love trying to keep 70 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 3: up with you and engaging with you in the moment. 71 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 3: Because for me, I'm trying to invite people in my 72 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 3: podcast who the type of people who if you sat 73 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 3: next to them at a dinner party, you'd be stoked. 74 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 3: Sometimes you sit next to people and a dinner party 75 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 3: or at a conference or something, and you're like, you 76 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 3: know what, it was a perfectly pleasant conversation, but I'm 77 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 3: not feeling totally nourished by it. And sometimes you get 78 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 3: lucky and you sit next to somebody and you're like, 79 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 3: oh my god, you are so interesting. I'm trying to 80 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 3: get people to be that person on my podcast. 81 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 2: That's so cool. 82 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: Now, if we went to start working together on a 83 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: new project, I know that there's something really important that 84 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: you would have me do and that you would do too. 85 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 2: Can you tell me what that is? 86 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 4: Yeah? 87 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 3: I call it building our operating Manual. So the origin 88 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 3: of this comes from a guy called Peter Block, who 89 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 3: if you're in the world of kind of organizational change 90 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 3: and stuff like that, you may have heard his name, 91 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 3: and he talks about something called a social contract, and 92 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 3: the bottom line is it's good to talk about how 93 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 3: we're going to work together before we talk about what 94 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 3: we're going to work on together. So this is a 95 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 3: conversation that's helpful if you're you know, you have somebody 96 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 3: new coming on your team, or you start working with 97 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 3: a vendor or a contractor or or anybody. Really you 98 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 3: got a relationship where you like, we want this to 99 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 3: be really good. The temptation is always to go, let's 100 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 3: talk about the project, what needs to be built, what 101 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 3: are we starting, what are our KPIs, and what are 102 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 3: our c's or ocr or whatever, And that pressure to 103 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 3: an excitement to get stuff done often kind of sweeps 104 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 3: you into that type of conversation. And you're in the 105 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 3: honeymoon of this relationship with this new person, just like 106 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 3: you're awesome, and I'm awesome, and where awesome? This project awesome? 107 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 3: What could possibly go wrong? And the thing is something 108 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 3: will go wrong everything, because it always goes wrong. It 109 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 3: always goes off the rails a little bit. So I'm 110 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 3: really enamored and try and have the discipline to have 111 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 3: a conversation about let's let's talk about our operating manual. 112 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 3: And I've just got a few questions or and I 113 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 3: don't ask all of them all the time, but a 114 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 3: few questions that I feel like help us having a 115 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 3: conversation to go, let me tell you how to get 116 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 3: the best out of me, and I want you to 117 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 3: tell me how to get the best out of you. 118 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 3: So I'll say things like, you know, so, Amantha, when 119 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 3: you've worked with somebody like me before in a project 120 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 3: like this and it's gone really well, tell me what happened? 121 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 4: What did you do? 122 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 3: And what did the other person do? And then I'll 123 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 3: answer the question myself. You know, when I worked on 124 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 3: somebody like you and Mantha on a project like this 125 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 3: and it went really well, here's some of the stuff 126 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 3: that happened, and I'll go and when you've worked with 127 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 3: somebody like me on a project that's kind of been 128 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 3: a bit of a disaster or just kind of mediocre, 129 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 3: what happened? You know, what did you do and what 130 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 3: did they do? And we're building up understanding about one 131 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 3: of the contexts in which we flourish and one of 132 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 3: the contexts in which we struggle. You know, a great 133 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,679 Speaker 3: one is and this is a question directly from Peter Block, 134 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 3: how do you feel about the amount of power you 135 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 3: have in this relationship. That's a really hard question to 136 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 3: ask it it's it always takes people aback, but it's 137 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 3: it's it's really good at kind of going how who 138 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 3: has control here? 139 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 4: And how do you feel about that? 140 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 2: I love that. 141 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 3: I give you one one more question and we can 142 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 3: we can ask me about it if you want another. 143 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 3: One is when things go badly wrong or go off 144 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 3: the rails a little bit, because they always do, what's 145 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 3: your unilateral act? 146 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 4: How do you respond? 147 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 3: And you know I can always tell people, look, I'm 148 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 3: not that great a conflict, so you'll move into you'll 149 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 3: just stop hearing from me, and this is by and 150 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 3: this is the way to pull me out of that. 151 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 3: So we actually have a conversation about this is what 152 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 3: I look like when I'm behaving badly or under stress, 153 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 3: and here's how you can manage me best to get 154 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 3: me out of that doom loop. And I'll get them 155 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 3: to tell me the same. 156 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: That's really interesting. 157 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: So at invent here we have a very similar strategy. 158 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: Whenever we have a new starter on the team, we 159 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: get them completing We call it the OP on the 160 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: one page operating Manual And yeah, for us the way 161 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: we think about it, It's like software hardware, all that 162 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: stuff comes with a manual about how to use it. 163 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 2: But I mean humans are far more. 164 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: Complex, but we don't come with a manual, and so 165 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: we try to create one. So I'm really interested in 166 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: those questions that you ask. Something else that we ask 167 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: is what are your pief points, Like what are the 168 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: things that just really frustrate you? And we find we 169 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: get some interesting answers. What do you do though, if, like, 170 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: if you're working with someone and maybe there like their 171 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: insight into themselves and particularly you know, their shadow side 172 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,839 Speaker 1: their weaknesses is not that good? How do you draw 173 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: those responses out more effectively? 174 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 4: I'm not sure. 175 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 3: I try and do it in the moment because for 176 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 3: me it is the process of having gone through this 177 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 3: allows us to come back and have this conversation again. 178 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 3: So more important to me then the answers is the 179 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 3: fact that I've said this, by the way, we have 180 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 3: these type of conversations when we work together. 181 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: So would you then have those conversations at regular intervals, 182 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: like where you're not talking about the project and the 183 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: work per se, but you're talking about the relationship and 184 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 1: all the time relational things really all the. 185 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 3: Time, Like I would say, with you know, on my 186 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 3: immediate team. So I kind of am part of two 187 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 3: companies at the moment. I own a training company that's 188 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 3: run by a CEO and I talk to her monthly 189 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 3: but formerly on her performance quarterly. And then I have 190 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 3: a little small kind of startup company where I have 191 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 3: one employee, and with Ainslie every six weeks we'll have 192 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 3: a conversation around has this going? 193 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 4: And it's not. 194 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 3: About the work, It's about how is it going for 195 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,319 Speaker 3: you as a human being? How has it going for 196 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 3: me as the person who's your nominal boss. What do 197 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 3: we need to do differently to do that? One of 198 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 3: the questions that both with Shannon who's the CEO of 199 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 3: Boxer Crayons, and Ainsley, who is going to of she 200 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 3: works at MBS dot works. One of the questions that 201 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 3: is most powerful in this is what needs to be 202 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 3: said that hasn't yet been said, because that just creates 203 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 3: space for us to go, ah, you know that thing 204 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 3: that's hard to talk about, or I've been looking for 205 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 3: the moment to sneak it into the conversation and I 206 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 3: haven't quite figured out how to say it because it's 207 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 3: a bit confronting to me or a bit confronting to 208 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 3: you or whatever. What needs to be said that hasn't 209 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 3: yet been said is just a permission to lay down 210 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 3: the the the as yet unspoken, and that is a 211 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 3: great cleanser and builder of resilience into into the relationships. 212 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: Oh, I'm gonna take that. 213 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 4: One that I stole it from somebody else. 214 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 3: I can't remember who, so steal away because it is 215 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 3: it is a beauty. On another note, a man, I 216 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 3: end my podcast at the moment. That's the question I 217 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 3: always ask people, and it's great. Sometimes people go, I 218 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 3: got nothing. Some people times people go, that was a 219 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 3: good conversation, thank you, And some people go, here's the 220 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 3: thing I really wanted to tell you. 221 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 4: I'm like, brilliant, and we'll have a bit more of 222 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 4: a chat. 223 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 2: That's cool. 224 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: Now, I know that you think a lot about what 225 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: to say yes to and what to say no to. 226 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: I mean, why is that such an important thing that 227 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: we should really think more deeply about. 228 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I haven't listened to absolutely every episode of 229 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 3: everything you've ever on this show, Amantha Michael. 230 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 2: I'm very disappointed to hear that. 231 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 4: I've had to say no to that. 232 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 3: So I can say yes to having a life, but 233 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 3: I can't be the first person to have mentioned this 234 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 3: as just a foundational thing to get clear on. 235 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 4: And I believe that at a certain point in. 236 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 3: Your life you just get more opportunities than you can 237 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 3: actually cope with. And there's a wiring that I certainly 238 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 3: carried on or taken with me and other people might 239 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 3: have taken it too, which is like when you start 240 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 3: your career, you kind of say yes to a lot 241 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 3: of things because you're just trying to build up experience 242 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 3: and stories and to taste things. 243 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 4: It's like, do I like the taste of this? Can 244 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 4: I do it? 245 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 3: You're trying to find that sort of sense of this 246 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 3: is who I am in the context of work. Because 247 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 3: I don't know about you, Mantha, but the first two 248 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 3: or three years I spent working, I was just learning 249 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 3: how to work. I was just learning who am I 250 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 3: in the work context, because it was different from being 251 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 3: a university student or whatever. At a certain point you 252 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 3: can actually do, you know, technically, you can do more 253 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 3: than you actually have time for. So now it's about going, well, 254 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 3: what are the choices that I can make that are 255 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,839 Speaker 3: thrilling to me? And important and that they serve a 256 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 3: bigger goal. And in organizations, there is a hunger for 257 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 3: people to be more more strategic. You know, they're like, 258 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 3: we said, we need we really want people to be 259 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 3: more strategic. And everyone's like, yeah, I need to be 260 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 3: more strategic, and theyrey's like, hell, what does that mean? 261 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 3: Because it's one of those anodyne words that gets bounced 262 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,559 Speaker 3: around and can mean you know, everything and nothing. I 263 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 3: think that one way to think about what does it 264 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 3: mean to be strategic and therefore valued and therefore influential 265 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 3: and an important person in a setting, in a context 266 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 3: is to have the courage to say no to things? 267 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 3: Who can say yes to what matters? And it's scary, 268 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 3: and it's confusing, and it's fear of missing out, and 269 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 3: it's what if I take the wrong choice, and the 270 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 3: guilt and the anxiety that comes with making a choice. 271 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 3: But it's also an adult act and it is a 272 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 3: choice to say, look, I'm committing to something that feels right. 273 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 3: You can't control the outcome, but a full commitment to 274 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 3: the process gives you a better chance of something amazing happening. 275 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: So what is your process for what you do say 276 00:13:58,280 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: yes to? 277 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 4: Well? 278 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 3: It kind of happens on a range of different levels. 279 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 3: So I have regular invitations to do things, you know, 280 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 3: beyond podcasts or contribute to a project in one way 281 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 3: or another. And for those short term, kind of shorter, 282 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 3: kind of one off experiences, I have a number of 283 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 3: different things. I kind of test one as I just 284 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 3: do a kind of gut is it a hell yes 285 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 3: or is it a no? 286 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 4: So people will probably know that from. 287 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 3: Derek Sivers, and I think he's actually got a book 288 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 3: out called Hell Yes or No. Now it's just one 289 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 3: really helpful way of going, look, just work with my 290 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 3: gut instinctive says it hell yes or no. Second, I'll 291 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 3: actually do a little test for criteria, so, you know, 292 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 3: to take an example that we're living at the moment. 293 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 3: For podcast invitations, I've got somebody in my team to 294 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 3: do a tiny bit of research around you know, what's 295 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 3: the podcast about? How many people listen to it? 296 00:14:58,200 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 4: Do I know them? 297 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 3: And there's a kind of a criteria I might say 298 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 3: yes or no to there, and then there's a The 299 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 3: third point is me. It's a bit more existential, Amantha. 300 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 3: It's just me going why am I filling up my space? 301 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 3: And what am I you know, kind of what am 302 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 3: I running from? And why am I so uncomfortable with 303 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 3: space and silence and you know, non busyness, and so 304 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 3: part of it is just to kind of check into 305 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 3: what the bigger, the bigger things are that I do. 306 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 3: So I've got that as a kind of immediate response 307 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 3: to a request. Then there's a bigger context, which is 308 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 3: what's the big project that I'm working on at the moment. 309 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 3: So again, you know, Amantha, I stand on so many 310 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 3: people's shoulders to talk about this stuff. But a writer 311 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 3: called Kevin Kelly gave me the idea many years ago 312 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 3: of figuring out your death date. So basically, with with 313 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 3: statistical tables from actuaries, you can kind of figure out 314 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 3: statistically and you're likely to die. 315 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 4: And I know my death date. 316 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 3: It's September fifteenth, twenty forty three, and Kevin Kelly, and 317 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 3: you can look this up at kk dot org if 318 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 3: you're interested in finding this article. You guys, look, you've 319 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 3: basically got five big projects, one big project every five years. 320 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 3: So twenty twenty one, twenty forty three, basically got five 321 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 3: and a half four and a bit project left in me, 322 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 3: which is quite sobering it's like to write a book. 323 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 4: And get it out into the world and really kind 324 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 4: of have. 325 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 3: That be a thing. It's about a five year project. 326 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 3: Maybe that's a bit long, but it's about right. It's 327 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 3: a good useful rule of thumb. So for me, there's 328 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 3: also the bigger picture around, So what's my worthy goal 329 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 3: right now? That's the language I use around how do 330 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 3: I set that big project that I want to commit 331 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 3: to that feels like the best expression of something that 332 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 3: lights me up, something that serves the world, something that 333 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 3: stretches and grows me. And then against that it's as 334 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 3: complicated as it sounds. I work in these kind of 335 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 3: six months six week cycles around. I do a burst 336 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 3: of work and then I stop and I pause and 337 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 3: I kind of reevaluate where I am and reorient and 338 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 3: decide what the next six weeks are going to be. 339 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 3: And that structure also helps me figure out what I'm 340 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 3: saying yes to and what I'm saying no to. 341 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 2: Hmmm, wow, Okay, there's so much that I want. 342 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 4: To dig into there. 343 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: So it's like, because I'm I'm sort of an interesting 344 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: point at the moment, and I know that your your 345 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: new book, how to Begin really takes the reader through this. 346 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: But I've my big project at the moment, which I 347 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: guess a book is probably about a three year project, 348 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: I find, and I find this when I talk to 349 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: writers of business books. There's kind of there's the year 350 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 1: of research and prep, there's a year of writing and editing, 351 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: and then there's a year of promoting it and you know, 352 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 1: and obviously like you're still just up. 353 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 3: There's a six month period of self loathing in there 354 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 3: as well, but that's often overlapping at the other parts, 355 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 3: possibly longer than six months. 356 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 4: But it's three years. It's three years of self loathing. 357 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 4: That's okay, that's right. 358 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: And so I'm at the part of the process where 359 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: literally a week ago today I submitted the final draft 360 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: of the manuscript to my editor and so now. 361 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. 362 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: And it's weird because we're in lockdown in Melbourne, I think, 363 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: where we've just passed two hundred and fifty days or 364 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: something crazy. 365 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 4: Like world record. 366 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 2: I hear, I know, I. 367 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: Know, something to not be proud of. And I and 368 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: someone said, hey, are you going to celebrate? I'm like, 369 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: that hasn't even crossed my mind. But in the next 370 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: few months they'll be editing and stuff. But I feel 371 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: like the bulk of the work is done. If you 372 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: like it, how I'm like, Okay, I've got quite a 373 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: lot of free time because it took a long time 374 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 1: to write seventy fous and words, and I'm kind of 375 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 1: hunting around for what will that next creative project be 376 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: that I'll sink my teeth into. 377 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 2: So how should I go about working that out? 378 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,719 Speaker 3: Michael, You know, the first thing I would say is 379 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 3: just to allow yourself sometime not to figure that out. 380 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 3: I wish I could follow this advice as easily as 381 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 3: I give it, because I'm not that great at doing it. 382 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 3: But if this feels like it's done, and honestly, having 383 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 3: written a few books myself, even having got that final 384 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 3: draft into your editor, there's still quite an immersive amount 385 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 3: of work to be done if you want to make it. 386 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,360 Speaker 3: Part of your focus around well how does this book 387 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 3: end up looking and going through the type setting and 388 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 3: then getting it out into the world and then committing 389 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 3: to marketing it and stuff. 390 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 2: So absolutely yes, and I acknowledge that definitely. 391 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 3: Yes, But I think for particularly for people who are smart, ambitious, 392 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 3: and have a track record of success. So in otherwise 393 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 3: you that we there can be a little bit of 394 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 3: pressure to go right. Let's say it, I've had twelve 395 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 3: hours off since I submitted my book. I should I 396 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 3: should have my next project underway, and what's wrong with me? 397 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:11,719 Speaker 4: I don't want to be slacking. 398 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 3: I don't want I'm trying to be a role model 399 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:14,959 Speaker 3: to my team here and a role model to myself. 400 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 3: And I'm like, you know, what it is worth being 401 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 3: fallow for a little bit to kind of go what 402 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 3: matters to me now and to kind of open yourself 403 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 3: up to the to the world to go, how can 404 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:33,239 Speaker 3: you bump into stuff that might spark you and have 405 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 3: you think about new possible projects. Because the process of 406 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 3: kind of figuring out a project, I can talk about it, 407 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 3: and I will talk about it in just a second, 408 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 3: but there is an experience that it's like the recency effect, 409 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 3: which is we were so influenced by what we've just 410 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 3: recently done that sometimes it can be hard to shake 411 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 3: off what the next project might be. It's not just 412 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 3: kind of like it's just it's almost it's kind of 413 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:04,919 Speaker 3: the same as the last big project that you finished, 414 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 3: because you're still walking the valley of writing a book 415 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 3: and writing a book about you know that particular topic. 416 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 3: I read an article in The Guardian on the weekend 417 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 3: by Tim Minchin. It's an interesting article about ambition, about 418 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 3: how he made his his name as a comedian and 419 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 3: then stop being a comedian and people may not have 420 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 3: fully noticed it, but he's like, I didn't want to 421 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 3: get sucked into that label, and he's he talks about 422 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 3: his ambition now to be unpigeonhole able, if that's that's 423 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 3: even a word, And I personally admire that because it's 424 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 3: like he's been a willingness to kind of slow down 425 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 3: and go let me stay open to what shows up, 426 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 3: and let me stay open to what other projects might 427 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 3: not just move towards success, but actually be something that 428 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 3: stretches and grows you in an unexpected way. 429 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 1: We'll be back with Michael in a moment, hearing about 430 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: why he recommends setting goals in six week chapters and 431 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,400 Speaker 1: how he gets himself back on track when he's not 432 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: feeling his best. And if you're keen to consume more 433 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,439 Speaker 1: of the stuff that I'm putting out into the world, 434 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 1: more tips and tactics and tools. I release a lot 435 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: of stuff through social media so you can find me 436 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: on LinkedIn just search for Amantha Imba. I think I'm 437 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 1: the only one there, and you can also find me 438 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: on Twitter at Amantha and on Instagram at Amantha. 439 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 2: I you talk about. 440 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: Setting goals in six week chunks or I think you 441 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: use the language six week chapters. 442 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 4: I believe that's right. 443 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 1: Can you tell me, like, why six weeks? Why is 444 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: that a good amount of time? 445 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 4: Well, you know, people are learning. 446 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,199 Speaker 3: I'm a bit of a magpie, so I'm always on 447 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 3: the look at for other people who had good ideas, 448 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 3: who've tested stuff, and I came to the region that 449 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 3: went This is particularly helpful in the conversation of setting 450 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 3: out a worthy goal. And this worthy goal, which is 451 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 3: part of this book How to Begin, It's like you 452 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,120 Speaker 3: want a goal that is thrilling and important and daunting, 453 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 3: so something that is a bit nerve wracking as you 454 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 3: take it on. You know, I was talking to Liz 455 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:23,360 Speaker 3: Wiseman the other day, who has a new book out, 456 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 3: and she's like, it's like, you know how to start 457 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 3: the project, but you don't know how to finish it, 458 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 3: Like exactly, it's a goal like that. 459 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 4: So they kind of right weight to it. 460 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 3: And this isn't something that you've done before, you might 461 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 3: not have done it technically, or you just might not 462 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 3: have done it at this scale or at this level 463 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 3: of ambition or something. So it's there's unknown, and it 464 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 3: means that you can't just map out a you know, 465 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 3: a three year project of a water fall going this 466 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 3: and this and this and this. It is emergent. It's 467 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 3: going to evolve. Even what might be the the the goal, 468 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,959 Speaker 3: the bigger goal that you have made change and evolve 469 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,719 Speaker 3: as you begin to work on it. So this idea 470 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,120 Speaker 3: of well, here's another metaphor, it's not like you set 471 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 3: you find your worthy goal and then you go right, 472 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,439 Speaker 3: I'll just type in the destination address into my Google Maps, 473 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,479 Speaker 3: and you know, it's like seventeen minutes, five corners eighteen 474 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 3: minutes if you stop at the coffee shop. You know, 475 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 3: it's more like you're you're in front of you is 476 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 3: a kind of misty valley, and on the on the 477 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 3: other side of the valley is that kind of a peak, 478 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 3: which you think is your peak, but you're not entirely sure, 479 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 3: and you've got to find your way forward, and you've 480 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 3: got to navigate your way through the wilderness that's in 481 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 3: front of you to get to your destination. So you know, 482 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,640 Speaker 3: I can claim inspiration from something like orienteering. So you're 483 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 3: like map and compass. You're like, okay, this is where 484 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 3: I'm trying to go. So you set your compass and 485 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 3: you set a destination. I've got to get to that 486 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 3: gum tree. And then you run to that gum tree 487 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:58,640 Speaker 3: and then you pull out your map and you reorient 488 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 3: and you get your compass out you get to the 489 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,679 Speaker 3: next gum tree or rock or whatever. But it's the 490 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 3: same pattern you see in things like Agile in terms 491 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 3: of how they think about working in bursts. They figure 492 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 3: out what the important thing is, they work hard on it, 493 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 3: and then they stop and they go, now, what if 494 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 3: we've done this or we've tried to do this, where 495 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 3: what feels most important now? And it also is a 496 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 3: process talked about by the former chief tech officer of 497 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 3: base Camp. And he's got a book called I can't 498 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 3: remember what the book is called, but it's basically about 499 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 3: how they ship product in base Camp. And he says said, look, 500 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 3: we tested it, and it seems that six weeks is 501 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 3: long enough to make real progress on something, but short 502 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 3: enough that if you've just been spent six weeks working 503 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 3: on the wrong thing. The opportunity cost isn't that great, 504 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 3: So you can get really committed to it, you can 505 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 3: go far. And also if it's been a complete bust, 506 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 3: it's only six weeks in the big scheme of things. 507 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 3: So I was like, you know what, that's a good thing. 508 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 3: That's I'm going to steal that. So six weeks it is. 509 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: Now, can you tell me about the session that you 510 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 1: did with Aaron Wig, which I believe was to help 511 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 1: you find your way forward? 512 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, Aaron Weed? So eron, how do we spell that? 513 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 3: It's literally like a weed? Weed? 514 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 2: Got it? 515 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 3: So like not a flower but a weed, but she 516 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 3: is a total flower. So two years ago or a 517 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 3: little longer now, I stopped being the CEO at Box 518 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,479 Speaker 3: of Crayons. Now, this was a company that i'd founded 519 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 3: twenty years earlier or thereabouts, and it had, to my surprise, 520 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 3: grown into a pretty big, pretty successful learning and development company. 521 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 3: But not to my surprise, I just found out that 522 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 3: I was just wasn't a great CEO. Like I didn't suck, 523 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 3: but nor was I really wonderful at it, and nor 524 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 3: was I super excited about that as a job. So 525 00:26:55,520 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 3: how to coach. I kind of a higher or no. 526 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 3: I kind of tapped Shannon, who's working for the company. 527 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 3: I said, you're around next CEO. We spent a year 528 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 3: preparing for the handover, and then on a certain date 529 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 3: I stepped aside. She became CEO, and we had another 530 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 3: year being coached to basically stop me screwing up the 531 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 3: founder transition because founders always medal and their weird and 532 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 3: their prima donnas and blah blah blah. So it's basically 533 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 3: to keep me out of the kitchen. So that all 534 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 3: went pretty well. But I'm on the other side going, 535 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 3: and you know, Mantha, this kind of connects to your 536 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 3: you know, what's my next project question from earlier on. 537 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 4: I'm going, well, who am I? Now? What am I doing? 538 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 3: And you know, am I am I anything? Now that 539 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 3: I'm not the CEO of Box of Crayons? And it 540 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 3: wasn't exactly an existential crisis, but I was really struggling 541 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 3: to figure out what the next thing to do because 542 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 3: I had literally spent like fifteen years investing time and 543 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 3: money and everything into being known as a guy who 544 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 3: talked about curiosity and coaching and the coaching habit and 545 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,120 Speaker 3: all of that stuff, and now that wasn't my thing 546 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 3: to talk about anymore. That was box of crownses and 547 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 3: I was going to be separate from that. So somebody 548 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 3: mentioned Aaron Weed's work to me. She calls it the 549 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 3: Dig Dig, and she's like, well, here's what happens over 550 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 3: two three hour processes. You will tell her your story, 551 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 3: she'll listen to it, and in real time, she will 552 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 3: create your ecosystem, your kind of operating system using language 553 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,880 Speaker 3: it'll be you know, somewhere between one and five different words. 554 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 3: And Amantha, I can't tell you how skeptical I was 555 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 3: about this. I was just like, you know, first of all, 556 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 3: I'm a pretty good facilitator, and I'm like, okay, you're 557 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 3: gonna have to be a really good facilitator because I'm 558 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 3: very impatient with poor facilitators. And I'm not that good 559 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 3: with the kind of woo woo stuff either. So I'm like, ah, man, 560 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 3: this sounds like it's it's a combination of bad facilitatation 561 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 3: and woolness. 562 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 4: But I was a bit stuck. 563 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 3: And you know, she actually there are two people who've 564 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 3: gone through her process that I knew and admired. I 565 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 3: was like, well, Okay, she's got she's got social proof 566 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 3: that is actually of value to me. So I caught 567 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 3: her up and we did this remotely because there was 568 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 3: COVID times or maybe it wasn't maybe well it doesn't matter, 569 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 3: did it remotely, and Manton, it was amazing because I 570 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 3: was so sure what my three my words were going 571 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 3: to be. They're going to be something around possibilities and 572 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 3: curiosity and coaching and questions and creativity and meeting a 573 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,239 Speaker 3: bit zany or whatever. And I just was like, I know, 574 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 3: I know what this is about. And the three words 575 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 3: that came back were actually none of the above. One 576 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 3: was confidence, one was forward as in kind of looking 577 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,959 Speaker 3: forward and progress. And the root word the kind of 578 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 3: the core word, and my setup is power, particularly disrupting 579 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 3: power kind of how do I how do I play 580 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 3: a role to disrupt and decenter the norms of power 581 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 3: that show up? And I was very excited to get 582 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 3: those three words because I am, because they offered me 583 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 3: a way out of the box that I built myself, 584 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 3: the box of crayons kind of definition and cloak that 585 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 3: I was finding it hard to shed. 586 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 4: And you know, the power word. 587 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 3: Became the kind of the origin of what the work 588 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 3: that NBS do works is about, which is to help 589 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 3: people be a force for change, where I'm like, I'm 590 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 3: going to help other people give them the tools and 591 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 3: the confidence and the resources in the community to claim 592 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 3: power and disrupt power in whatever their sphere happens to be. 593 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 3: So as yeah, it's super exciting. I was surprised, and 594 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 3: you know, I know, I actual. You know, Eron's just 595 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 3: starting to launch a course now, I think, so if 596 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 3: people are interested in their stay, can go check her out. 597 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 3: I really recommend it. 598 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: That's so cool. Now, I want to know, if you're 599 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: not working at your best, how do you get yourself 600 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: back on track. 601 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 3: Well, the first thing I try and do is I 602 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 3: just try not to beat myself up for not working 603 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 3: at my best, because there's nothing more miserable than going. 604 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 4: What's wrong with me? 605 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 3: I'm not being able to work at my best And 606 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 3: then kind of get into this Shane spiral of what 607 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 3: you know, I'm a you know, I'm a privileged white 608 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 3: man and I'm at my peak, which is not actually true, 609 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 3: but let's pretend it is. And I'm like, why can't 610 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 3: I grind it out or blah blah blah. So there's 611 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 3: a way to be to be kind of kind about it. 612 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 3: I try and follow the science, Amantha, and that means 613 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 3: nap and go for a walk and get into nature 614 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 3: a little bit. And I'm not always convinced that I 615 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 3: can tell the difference that it feels better, but I'm 616 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 3: just trusting that actually I'm just the same as everybody 617 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 3: else and that lying down and taking a twenty minute 618 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 3: nap or going for a thirty minute walk outside is 619 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 3: just going to help me help me get better. And 620 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 3: you know, there's all the good stuff we know about, 621 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 3: you know, make you know, doing the tasks that you 622 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 3: feel that are appropriate to your level of energy right now. 623 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 3: So there are sometimes I'm like, man, I couldn't create 624 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 3: a creative spark if if my life depended on that. 625 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 3: So I'll said, I'm just going to go right, I'm 626 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 3: just going to see if I can do forty minutes 627 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 3: and get my inbox down to less than twenty eight 628 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 3: thousand in box messages or something something like that. So 629 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 3: there's there's a way of kind of setting context around that. 630 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 3: But you know that, I think probably the final standard 631 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 3: I give myself is just to go, well, what is 632 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 3: good enough? Because there I find what's really pernicious, Amantha, 633 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 3: is a a driving level of quality that is not 634 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 3: always required. So a big thing is just to go. 635 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 3: If I had to guess what good enough was for 636 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 3: this little piece of work right now, what would that be? 637 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 3: And is that within reach? 638 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 4: Right now? 639 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: I've heard that you do something call and I hope 640 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: I'm getting this name correct. That this not that exercise? 641 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: Can you tell me about that? 642 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 4: I can? And sorry, I do do this. Yeah. This 643 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 4: is also what I do is I forget some of 644 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 4: the tools that my dispose. 645 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 2: Of until a podcast host reminds. 646 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 3: You, thank you, thank you, Mantha. You did it very 647 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 3: very graciously as well. So one of my early jobs 648 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 3: was in the world of kind of branding and particularly 649 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 3: new product development. And you know, some a company would go, 650 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 3: you know, Michael and your your organization, we need you 651 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 3: to invent a new thing for us. But it has 652 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 3: to be it has to fit with our brand. And 653 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 3: the challenge is that it's really hard to get people 654 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 3: to talk about what a brand is and what it 655 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 3: really means beyond just kind of the obvious. So you 656 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 3: had to come up with a way of thinking about 657 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 3: describing a brand. And I first came across as tool 658 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 3: this not that in the context of describing a brand, 659 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:18,800 Speaker 3: and then I moved it into the world of personal 660 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 3: development and self growth and self management. So here's how 661 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 3: I think about it. I come up with pairs of words, 662 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 3: somewhere between five and seven pairs of words, and I'm 663 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 3: trying to articulate what I'm like at my very best, 664 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 3: and also what I'm like, not when I'm at my worst, 665 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,360 Speaker 3: but when I'm just when I'm off my game, you know, 666 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 3: like I'm ten percent off my game or fifteen percent 667 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 3: off my game. And I find that's a really helpful tool. 668 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 3: So let me give you an example of some of 669 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:54,799 Speaker 3: the pairs of words. Step forward, not step back, hold 670 00:34:54,840 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 3: it lightly, not take it seriously, be generous, don't be greedy. 671 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 3: And the way I manage it, Amantha, is if I'm 672 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 3: feeling under stress, and I particularly feel this if like 673 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 3: I'm I'm about to give a speech in front of 674 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 3: a kind of important audience, or I'm having a meeting 675 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 3: with somebody and it feels like there's a lot on 676 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 3: the line and I want my best public version of 677 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 3: myself to show up. This is particularly when I use 678 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 3: this tool, because what I will often do is I 679 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 3: will notice how I am playing small or shutting down 680 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,839 Speaker 3: or kind of manifesting some of those behaviors that are 681 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,879 Speaker 3: in the not that column, and I'll need to go 682 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 3: into the this column to remember what I'm like at 683 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,879 Speaker 3: my very best. So as an example, I was down 684 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,879 Speaker 3: in Detroit, you know, the home of all the big 685 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 3: car manufacturers, some years ago, and I was giving a 686 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,760 Speaker 3: talk and it was basically a whole bunch of senior 687 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 3: folks from like all the big car manufacturers, and it 688 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 3: was just like this gathering of alpha males. I mean, honestly, 689 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:04,919 Speaker 3: they were all six foot four. They all had white 690 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 3: teeth and short gray hair, and gray suits and white 691 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 3: shirts and red ties and really firm handshakes. And this 692 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 3: isn't my natural setting at all. And I could just 693 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 3: feel myself shrinking because I'm like, oh man, these are 694 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 3: my people, this isn't my audience. And you know, my 695 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 3: usual speech or workshop thing is kind of a bit provocative, 696 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 3: a bit performative, a very interactive, and I could just 697 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 3: have I have all these. 698 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 4: Doubts, you know, like, oh man, this is bad. I 699 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:35,359 Speaker 4: should shut it down. 700 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 3: I should behave I should conform to what's going to 701 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 3: be expected of me. 702 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 4: And then I noticed that and I. 703 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,240 Speaker 3: Was like, oh, and one of my pairs of words 704 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 3: is provocative, not sycophantic. You know, sycophantic meaning basically sucking 705 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,919 Speaker 3: up to somebody. And I could just feel myself becoming sycophantic, 706 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,720 Speaker 3: and I'm like, Okay, I'm going to remember that. Actually 707 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 3: part of me at my best is to be a 708 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,919 Speaker 3: little bit provocative. And it kind of gave me permit 709 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 3: and got me reconnected to how I wanted to be 710 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 3: on stage with these people, how I wanted to be 711 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:06,240 Speaker 3: the best version of myself. 712 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 2: That's great. 713 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: Something I've noticed, like, you're so well spoken, Michael, And 714 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: I've noticed when I ask you a question, I feel 715 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: like you're sort of taking a deep breath in and 716 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,880 Speaker 1: then you'll like come up with these incredibly wise words. 717 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 2: What is your process? 718 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 1: I'm really I'm curious about what's going on for you, 719 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: Like when you're sort of taking that breath in and 720 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: then responding. 721 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 4: I appreciate you you noticing that. 722 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,239 Speaker 3: You know. Some years ago I read a book called 723 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,280 Speaker 3: The Advice Trap, and the message and the advice trap 724 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 3: is your advice is. 725 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:43,359 Speaker 4: Not nearly as good as you think it. 726 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,919 Speaker 3: Is, and I was like, you know, authors often write 727 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 3: books for themselves. 728 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 4: I'm like, Michael, this. 729 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 3: One's for you. Your advice is not nearly as good 730 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 3: as you think it is. And I've just tried to 731 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:01,399 Speaker 3: build a practice of, you know, taking it honestly, taking 732 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 3: a bit of a breath to think, what's the best 733 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 3: answer to this that I might be able to offer, 734 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,839 Speaker 3: rather than what's the first answer that comes to mind. 735 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 3: Because I'm now, you know, I'm in my somebody once 736 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 3: said that I'm in my early mid fifties. So I've 737 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 3: just been around a long enough now. I just I 738 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 3: know stuff, and I know alternatives, and I know options. 739 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 3: You know, I've just been around enough that enough settlement 740 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 3: has sunk to the bottom of this particular lake, and 741 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 3: I'm like, how do I how do I find an 742 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:43,880 Speaker 3: answer that feels most decisive right now, that could be 743 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,800 Speaker 3: of best service to the to the audience right now, 744 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 3: rather than just the first thing that comes to mind. 745 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 2: I like that a lot. 746 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 1: My natural inclination when I'm being interviewed somewhere or doing 747 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 1: Q and A off the back of a keynote or 748 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 1: something is to feel that side silence. The silence is 749 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 1: so scary. I feel like you're incredibly good. It's just 750 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 1: been comfortable with that silence, and it's been interesting for 751 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 1: me as interviewing you. And I mean, you know, we've 752 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 1: we've met, we've hung in up before, but it's been 753 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: a really interesting experience. 754 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,280 Speaker 4: I'm as sign, Michael, thank you. 755 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 3: There's a great there's a great example of me sounding 756 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,359 Speaker 3: like I'm comfortable with silence whilst not being comfortable at all. 757 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 3: A couple of months ago, I was on Brene Brown's podcast, 758 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 3: which was. 759 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 4: A big treat. You know, I was super excited to 760 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 4: get invited to be part of that, but I didn't know. 761 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:39,880 Speaker 3: She didn't give me any preparation for what it was like. 762 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 3: I didn't have an interview with a producer or anything, 763 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 3: so I had no idea what we were going to 764 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 3: be talking about. And forty minutes into it, forty five 765 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 3: minutes into it, she guys, okay, so coach me. I 766 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 3: was like, oh my god, I'm coaching Brene Brown, trying 767 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 3: not to panic, and I would ask Brene a question 768 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 3: and there just be this silence and I'm not sure 769 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 3: how long that it goes on for because I'm not 770 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 3: that good at listening to myself and me, But it 771 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,680 Speaker 3: felt like it was like a twenty minute silence between 772 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 3: me asking a question, who are answering at and inside 773 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 3: my head is like, oh my god, fill the silence, 774 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,880 Speaker 3: Fill the silence, ask another question. But you know, experience 775 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,240 Speaker 3: is like, you know what, just hold the silence because 776 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,719 Speaker 3: it's such a precious gift to give people a bit 777 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 3: of space to think. 778 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 4: It. 779 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 3: Also, you know, if you asked a question and you 780 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:31,359 Speaker 3: take a beat or two to figure out a good 781 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,880 Speaker 3: answer and somehow shows a respect to the question and 782 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 3: also gives a weight to the answer that might not 783 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,280 Speaker 3: come with a really fast response. 784 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:43,319 Speaker 2: So true. 785 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 5: Now for people that want to consume more of what 786 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,919 Speaker 5: you are putting into the world, Michael, and also get 787 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 5: their hands on a copy of How to Begin, what 788 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 5: is the best way for people to do that? 789 00:40:58,440 --> 00:40:59,800 Speaker 4: Thank you? How to Begin. 790 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 3: It's pub date is January eleventh, But if you go 791 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,360 Speaker 3: to how tobegin dot com, you know you'll get access, 792 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,160 Speaker 3: you'll get ways to buy the book if you want that. 793 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,719 Speaker 3: You also there's a kind of free stuff and downloads, 794 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 3: So how to Begin dot com is a place for 795 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 3: the book. If you want a more general introduction to 796 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:16,759 Speaker 3: the work. 797 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 4: That I do. 798 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,919 Speaker 3: MBS dot works is where you'll find my podcast two 799 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:26,200 Speaker 3: pages With NBS, We've got this wonderful, free, year long 800 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,719 Speaker 3: course called The Year of Living Brilliantly, which was meant 801 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:32,520 Speaker 3: to be a like a marketing thing, you know. I 802 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 3: get people into this course and then I upsell them 803 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,440 Speaker 3: to stuff, but it's a terrible marketing thing because it's 804 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,720 Speaker 3: literally a year of brilliant teachers teaching people new stuff, 805 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,239 Speaker 3: like a new six minute video every week. So by 806 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,879 Speaker 3: the time people are done, they're like, we're exhausted. There's 807 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 3: just so much good work here that we don't want 808 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 3: to buy anything. So terrible marketing idea, but a great 809 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 3: course if people are interested in that. 810 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:55,800 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Michael. 811 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,640 Speaker 1: I've just loved this chat. I feel like I've taken 812 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,799 Speaker 1: some and it's been one of those interviews where it's 813 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,279 Speaker 1: like I'm going to go back and listen to this 814 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,879 Speaker 1: like a few more times because there's yeah, I can't 815 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,759 Speaker 1: wait to share it with listeners. So thank you so 816 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 1: much for your time. 817 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,960 Speaker 3: Meanta, thank you, You're a wonderful host. It's like hard 818 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 3: to believe this has been an hour. It's gone really quickly. 819 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 1: I hope you liked my chat with Michael. 820 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,160 Speaker 2: I just feel like whenever I catch up with Michael, 821 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,399 Speaker 2: I learn so much. 822 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,239 Speaker 1: This is one of those episodes where I will be 823 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 1: going back over. 824 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 2: And taking even more notes. 825 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 1: How I work is produced by Inventium with production support 826 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,400 Speaker 1: from Dead Set Studios. The producer for this episode was 827 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:40,759 Speaker 1: Jenni Koda, and thank you to Martin Nimba who does 828 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,520 Speaker 1: the audio mix for every episode and makes everything sound 829 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 1: better than it would have otherwise. 830 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:46,319 Speaker 2: See you next time.