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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just answers.

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Speaker 2: Now the premise of the book, Trent Dolton goes and

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Speaker 2: sits in Brisbane's CBD at a chair table with a

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Speaker 2: typewriper type Buckhart Speak typewriter and he sets it up

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Speaker 2: so people walk past and it's just a sign can

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Speaker 2: you please tell me a love story?

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, My Mum

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Speaker 1: and Dad.

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Speaker 2: This is the podcast where Kylie and I talk about

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Speaker 2: not parenting, which is kind of unusual because almost all

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Speaker 2: of our episodes.

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Speaker 3: Are about parenting.

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Speaker 2: But once a month we talk about something else that

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Speaker 2: we care about a lot. We talk about book club,

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Speaker 2: not that there is a specific book club that we're promoting,

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Speaker 2: but rather the books that we've been reading because we

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Speaker 2: think that well, of those books, everyone was a great book,

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Speaker 2: a recommendation, and so we're going to dive into the

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Speaker 2: books that we've been reading. And normally we get all

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Speaker 2: carried away and excited about how many books we've read,

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Speaker 2: and old usually have four or five, and Kylie will

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Speaker 2: have a handful. Today, Kylie, not so many books. I'm

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Speaker 2: working through my third book for the month just now,

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Speaker 2: but you have only read one this month.

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Speaker 3: I'm just I'm not disappointed in you.

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Speaker 4: I'm just saying, seriously, I feel like I just got

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Speaker 4: a tardy.

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Speaker 3: You didn't get it.

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Speaker 4: Unbelievable. I actually have much three books going on at

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Speaker 4: the moment. I've never been a person to do that,

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Speaker 4: but I'm actually jumping between books at the moment. I

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Speaker 4: just am not feeling the vibe every now and again,

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Speaker 4: and so I picked something else up and I start that.

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Speaker 4: But I mentioned last month that I had a book

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Speaker 4: that I've been working through and it's been quite a

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Speaker 4: heavy read for me. So it's what's taken up my focus.

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Speaker 2: And I do really I didn't mean to sound so yeah, sure, critical,

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Speaker 2: so judgmental.

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Speaker 4: I get in trouble because I have four books to

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Speaker 4: talk about today. I and I have one, and you're disappointed.

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Speaker 3: I know. I'm so sorry. I only have two. I'm

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Speaker 3: only going to talk about two, so we're kind of.

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Speaker 4: It's been a bit to tell who started bike riding?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, harn't we And I've I've watched a bit of TV.

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Speaker 4: You have been watching a bit of TV.

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Speaker 3: Ted Lasso season three, it's back out.

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Speaker 2: I've been watching that Shrinking show on Apple TV with

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Speaker 2: Harrison Ford. I also watched All's Quiet on the Western Front,

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Speaker 2: the war movie, And of course, because of all the

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Speaker 2: aeroplane rides, there's been a lot more TV than normal,

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Speaker 2: So you.

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Speaker 4: Cannot blame TV on aeroplane rides.

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Speaker 2: Okay, But basically it's been the bike ride, bike riding

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Speaker 2: till six in the morning most mornings, and.

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Speaker 3: That really does curtail my ability to read.

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Speaker 2: I lay in bed and I read like two paragraphs

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Speaker 2: and I'm gone because I'm.

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Speaker 3: Getting up at four am. It's really hard to do

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Speaker 3: it all.

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Speaker 2: So let's start with your book and then we'll dive

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Speaker 2: into my two.

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Speaker 4: So I picked up a book called Bonds That Make

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Speaker 4: Us Free, Healing our Relationships, Coming to Ourselves, and it's

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Speaker 4: by C. Terry Warner. This book has really challenged my thinking.

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Speaker 4: It's been really confronting for me to read it because

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Speaker 4: I guess the premise of it is he's actually asking

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Speaker 4: us to take responsibility for our feelings. Yeah, we have

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Speaker 4: experiences and people make us upset, and we blame them

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Speaker 4: for the negative emotions that we're experiencing. But it's actually

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Speaker 4: our choice to respond to those circumstances in whatever way

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Speaker 4: we choose to, and for lots of us, we choose

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Speaker 4: to stay in these patterns of negative emotion, but we

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Speaker 4: blame it on somebody else and think that if only

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Speaker 4: that person didn't exist, or if only that person didn't

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Speaker 4: do that, then I could be happy. But he kind

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Speaker 4: of challenges that whole thought process and suggests that it's

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Speaker 4: really comes down to us and how we choose to

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Speaker 4: live our lives.

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Speaker 2: It's a hard thing to hear, especially. I don't know

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Speaker 2: the book has aged particularly well. It's about twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: five years old now. It's written around the turn of

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Speaker 2: the century, and I read this maybe a decade ago,

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Speaker 2: and I loved it. I think that the principles that

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Speaker 2: it teaches are more important now than ever.

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Speaker 3: It's a sublimely well thought through book.

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Speaker 2: But I think it does kind of get over complicated

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Speaker 2: now then. And I'm also not sure that some of

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Speaker 2: the ideas that he's shared have aged well in the

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Speaker 2: way that he's shared them. The ideas are still relevant,

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Speaker 2: and I would argue right, but I think in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty three he would probably write the book differently.

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Speaker 4: It's interesting you just say that, because probably the first

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Speaker 4: half it was kind of like just hit Every page

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Speaker 4: was hitting me with these massive moments of oh wow,

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Speaker 4: I can see how I do that, or I can

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Speaker 4: see how that is actually impacting in a negative way

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Speaker 4: relationships that I hold dear. But then I kind of

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Speaker 4: got to about the middle and it just felt like

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Speaker 4: I was wading through murky water and it wasn't particularly clear,

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Speaker 4: and it felt overly complicated, and so I pushed through

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Speaker 4: it because I actually want I actually am invested in

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Speaker 4: what he's trying to teach me. But I did feel

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Speaker 4: that he kind of lost his way in being able

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Speaker 4: to help, you know, the average person really grasp the

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Speaker 4: concepts of what he was trying to share.

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Speaker 3: So something that you may not be aware of. I

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Speaker 3: don't think i've shared this with you before.

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Speaker 2: Terry Warner, who wrote the book it's called Bonds that

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Speaker 2: Make Us Free, is also one of the guys in

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Speaker 2: charge of the Arbinger Institute.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and I pick that up. He mentions that a

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Speaker 4: little bit.

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Speaker 2: So there's two books by them. One is called The

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Speaker 2: Anatomy of Peace and the other one is called Leadership

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Speaker 2: and Self Deception. And the ideas in Bonds that Make

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Speaker 2: Us Free are repeated and I guess refined in those

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Speaker 2: two books as well, so that could be another way forward.

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Speaker 2: People certainly have responded very well to those two books,

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Speaker 2: and Terry Warner and another guy called Jim Ferrell unfortunate surname,

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Speaker 2: I know, but Jim Ferrell and Terry Warner are the

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Speaker 2: two guys behind the Arbinger Institute. But obviously bonds that

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Speaker 2: make us free is well, what did you think?

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Speaker 3: Well, how would you read it?

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Speaker 4: Not religious, but definitely there is an element of God

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Speaker 4: to the conversations that I had.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I don't remember that.

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Speaker 4: And there is there is a lot of anecdotal experiences

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Speaker 4: to kind of help you see the principles in action

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Speaker 4: and how they play out. And what's wonderful is actually

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Speaker 4: he will often share those experiences and then he'll share

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Speaker 4: you know, where they've come, where they've gotten too years

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Speaker 4: later or even after attending our workshop with him, and

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Speaker 4: how they've come to their own understanding of the I

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Speaker 4: guess self delusions that that found themselves in. But I

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Speaker 4: if I was going to give it a rating, I

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Speaker 4: probably would only give it a three wow, because it

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Speaker 4: just I just got lost in the middle of it all, just.

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Speaker 2: The complicated details, right, Okay, but it.

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Speaker 4: Was well worth reading, and I don't know, maybe I

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Speaker 4: actually need to read it again to really grasp what

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Speaker 4: he was trying to share in that middle section. What

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Speaker 4: I gained from reading it was that I can spend

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Speaker 4: all the time I want blaming other people for the

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Speaker 4: way I feel, and I could be justified in feeling

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Speaker 4: those feelings based on the experiences I have, but I

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Speaker 4: can't move forward until I'm willing to let go of

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Speaker 4: those feelings. And I think forgiveness. I've heard people say

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Speaker 4: before forgiveness is not for the person, it's for ourselves.

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Speaker 4: And he talks about that process in a very different

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Speaker 4: way to what I have previously heard and acknowledges that

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Speaker 4: forgiveness is actually for both of you. The opportunity we

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Speaker 4: have to forgive other people is to recognize their humanness,

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Speaker 4: to recognize. Until we're to forgive, we see them as

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Speaker 4: a hindrance to our well being and peace. We don't

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Speaker 4: see them as an individual with their own lives and

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Speaker 4: their own issues, and their own challenges and their own weaknesses.

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Speaker 4: They're just a hindrance to what we're trying to achieve

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Speaker 4: in our lives. But until we're able to see them

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Speaker 4: as a person just like you and me, who is

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Speaker 4: doing the best they can but messing it up just

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Speaker 4: like I am on a day to day basis. Then

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Speaker 4: we're held back from all of the things that we

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Speaker 4: can experience and all the goodness that life has to

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Speaker 4: offer us. It's the choice that we make.

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Speaker 2: It's really interesting listening to what you're saying. I've jumped

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Speaker 2: on too good Reads to see what other people thought

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Speaker 2: of the book. It's been highly rated, so there are

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Speaker 2: four hundred and eighty one ratings with an average of

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Speaker 2: four point three to four. But the commentary that people

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Speaker 2: are basically making if they're not giving it five stars,

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Speaker 2: is pretty much associated with what you've just said.

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Speaker 3: I made myself finish the book.

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Speaker 2: The ideas were so helpful, but I really had to

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Speaker 2: guts it through the parts that were the.

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Speaker 3: Complicated or that I didn't quite agree with. I agree

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Speaker 3: with you.

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Speaker 2: I think the book is profoundly good, but it's probably

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Speaker 2: about one hundred pages too long and a little bit

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Speaker 2: too complicated. But if you want to learn about yourself

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Speaker 2: and how they talk about self betrayal, yeah, the way

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Speaker 2: we betray ourselves. It's a really it's a really profound book,

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Speaker 2: and all of how it says on the back we

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Speaker 2: are responsible for feelings like anger, envy, and insecurity that

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Speaker 2: we've blamed on others. It's a real like if you

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Speaker 2: kind of sit down and give yourself a couple of

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Speaker 2: upcuts in that first half of the book, right, it's

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Speaker 2: just punch off to punch out to punch and yet as.

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Speaker 3: You're reading it, you know that it's true.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. In one of the closing paragraphs, he just says this.

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Speaker 4: He says, in my experience, there is one personal characteristic

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Speaker 4: upon which all ourse turns, one that clarifies, simplifies, and

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Speaker 4: focuses us that makes us effective when we're not even

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Speaker 4: trying to be effective. It's not intelligence, wit, charm, or

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Speaker 4: even stubborn determination, since all these be become negative when

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Speaker 4: we're self absorbed. No, the key characteristic is a consistent

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Speaker 4: readiness to yield to the truth in all circumstances, no

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Speaker 4: matter what the apparent cost. It's really easy to blame

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Speaker 4: someone else for the way we feel, but it actually

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Speaker 4: comes down to us.

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Speaker 2: Bonds that make us free. By Terry Warner. That's Kylie's

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Speaker 2: book for the month. Next month, Kylie I'll try not

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Speaker 2: to sound disapproving no matter how many books you've read.

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Speaker 3: Let's dive into my two.

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Speaker 4: What's your first one?

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Speaker 2: So the first one I mentioned in our last book

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Speaker 2: club conversation that I was reading a book that I

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Speaker 2: think could be my book of the year.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure if it's going to be my book

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Speaker 3: of the year, but golly, it was good, very very

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Speaker 3: good book.

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Speaker 2: So the book is called The Case Against the Sexual Revolution,

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Speaker 2: A New Guide to Sex in the twenty first Century,

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Speaker 2: by Louise Perry, and the book is essentially a critique

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Speaker 2: on so much of what has happened as a result

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Speaker 2: of the nineteen sixties sexual Revolution. And the argument in

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Speaker 2: this book is that the sexual Revolution has done more

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Speaker 2: to harm women than to help women. Not that the

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Speaker 2: author is arguing that we should go back to the

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Speaker 2: way things were in the fifties, and there's clearly problems

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Speaker 2: with that, but essentially, so many of the changes that

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Speaker 2: were supposed to be empowering for women, and so many

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Speaker 2: of the challenges that were supposed to be overcome so

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Speaker 2: that women.

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Speaker 3: Could live better lives have really actually made life.

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Speaker 2: Better for men more than for women, especially in terms

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Speaker 2: of quote unquote sexual freedoms. Men are far more sexually

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Speaker 2: free and women are far less sexually free as.

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Speaker 3: A result of those changes. So she acknowledges plenty.

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Speaker 2: That is good that's come from the sexual revolution, but

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Speaker 2: plenty is problematic. It's a really complicated book. I don't

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Speaker 2: think she actually totally nailed it, but it's such a

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Speaker 2: tough topic to take on, and I think that it

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Speaker 2: was still brilliantly well done. I would give it like

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Speaker 2: a four to four and a half star rating. Not

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Speaker 2: sure I can give it five, but I give a

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Speaker 2: five stars for taking on a topic that almost no

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Speaker 2: one else would ever be willing to go at, and

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Speaker 2: it was provocative and it was eye opening, regardless of

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Speaker 2: where you sit on the political spectrum, Like you could

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Speaker 2: be completely liberal or completely conservative and read and go

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Speaker 2: as so long as you're willing to wrestle with ideas,

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Speaker 2: you could genuinely get into it and wrestle with the

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Speaker 2: things that she says. And I think that is really

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Speaker 2: really great. Some of the topics that she takes on,

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Speaker 2: which again really brave. She argues categorically that men and

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Speaker 2: women are different, and I know that's a very provocative

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Speaker 2: thing to say. Her argument is strong and in the

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Speaker 2: light of the current podcast that I'm absolutely absorbed by,

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Speaker 2: which is about JK Rowling. It's called The Which Trials

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Speaker 2: of jk Rowling. It's been released recently by the Free

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Speaker 2: Press Incredible podcast, and there's a high level of alignment

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Speaker 2: in terms of the thinking that's going on there. She

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Speaker 2: emphasizes that some desires are actually bad, indicates that loveless

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Speaker 2: sex is not empowering, argues that consent is not enough,

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Speaker 2: tells us that violence is not love, that people are

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Speaker 2: not products, and then makes the argument that marriage is good.

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Speaker 3: So these are all I.

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Speaker 2: Think, really profoundly important things to talk about, and we

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Speaker 2: live in twenty twenty three. We live in a world

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Speaker 2: where there's actually not allowed to be conversation about some

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Speaker 2: of these things.

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Speaker 3: And that's authoritarian.

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Speaker 2: That's dangerous because when we stop having conversations about these

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Speaker 2: things and stop considering that there could be more than

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Speaker 2: one view in either direction, that underminds our ability to

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Speaker 2: make progress.

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Speaker 4: So does she have a conservative background.

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Speaker 2: No, she's actually quite It's very much a feminist book.

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Speaker 2: But there's all different kinds of feminism. There's radical feminists,

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Speaker 2: there's more liberal feminists. There's feminism can go in a

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Speaker 2: whole range of different directions, and that's one of the

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Speaker 2: reasons that feminism has a bad name, because there are

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Speaker 2: some people who say things that everyone else disagrees with,

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Speaker 2: and then so there are so many different ways to

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Speaker 2: approach it. But she's quite wouldn't say that she's a

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Speaker 2: conservative author.

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Speaker 3: I just wouldn't say that.

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Speaker 4: Is that because she's tackling a topic that would fall

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Speaker 4: intents and purposes to be considered taboo or something.

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Speaker 2: She's clearly feminist, Like she's not coming at this from

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Speaker 2: a religious or a conservative point of view. She's saying,

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Speaker 2: we need women to be empowered, we need women to

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Speaker 2: have equality, and the sexual revolution has not given us

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Speaker 2: what it promised. That's really the thrust of it. And

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Speaker 2: it's i mean, look out course language, strong themes, heavy content,

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Speaker 2: and a few times it was a little bit beyond

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Speaker 2: me because I'm not heavily feminist theory oriented. It's a

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Speaker 2: little bit outside of my wheelhouse. But great book, great book,

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Speaker 2: really provocative, really thought provoking. And so even though like

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Speaker 2: with your book, you gave it three out of five,

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Speaker 2: but it's still a darn good book and it's still

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Speaker 2: giving it.

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Speaker 4: I really want to clarify that because I'm giving it

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Speaker 4: three out of five because as.

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Speaker 3: A read it was hard to read. Yeah, but if

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Speaker 3: I was.

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Speaker 4: Going to base a rating on the principles taught in it,

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Speaker 4: it'd be a five. Like the principles are life changing

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Speaker 4: principles if you can grasp them, but the delivery of

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Speaker 4: those principles let it down.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Yep, yep, I reckon.

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Speaker 2: I just reckon. This is a very very strong book.

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Speaker 2: I just again while we were talking, I've looked it

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Speaker 2: up on Goodreads. This has got like nearly a thousand

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Speaker 2: ratings at an average of four point three six. People

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Speaker 2: are definitely engaging with the material, and it's the kind

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Speaker 2: of book that forces you to engage with some.

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Speaker 3: Really tricky stuff. So that was my first book that

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Speaker 3: I wanted to mention.

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Speaker 2: The other one and I'll just mention it briefly because

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Speaker 2: our time is pretty well up. Is a book that

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Speaker 2: you got me for Valentine's Day? Love Stories by Trent Dalton.

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Speaker 4: How did I go? Did I go to pick a

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Speaker 4: good one?

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Speaker 2: It's a really funny one because so let's just be

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Speaker 2: really clear, I'm going to dive into good Reads again.

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Speaker 2: There has been nine three hundred and thirty two ratings

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Speaker 2: on this book. It sold well with an average of

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Speaker 2: four point one nine out of five, so people have

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Speaker 2: loved it. The premise of the book, Trent Dalton goes

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Speaker 2: and sits in Brisbane's CBD at a chair table with

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Speaker 2: a typewriter, so he carries it in and carries it

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Speaker 2: home each day chair table type, riper type duckhart speak

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Speaker 2: typewriter and he sets it up so people walk past

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Speaker 2: and there's just a sign can you please tell me

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Speaker 2: a love story or author seeking love stories or whatever

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Speaker 2: the sign says, and people are stopping and telling him

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Speaker 2: love stories. He does it for two months. First off,

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Speaker 2: Trent Dalton, my hat goes off to you. The number

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Speaker 2: of people who you probably would never normally want to

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Speaker 2: have a conversation with, who.

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Speaker 3: Stopped threatened him.

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Speaker 2: Like you can tell as you read the book that

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Speaker 2: he had some unexpected conversations with some unexpected people, and

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Speaker 2: quite often he must have been sitting there going, I

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Speaker 2: really really really want to be kind here, but this

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Speaker 2: is driving me up the wall. And yet he honors

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Speaker 2: those people so beautifully in the book. He honors everybody

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Speaker 2: so well in the book.

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Speaker 4: So last month I talked about joining Beck Sparrow's book club. Yes,

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Speaker 4: and they actually did Trent's book last year. Okay, and

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Speaker 4: if you're a member, you can listen to.

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Speaker 3: You can listen to the old conversation.

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Speaker 4: So I actually listened to an interview with him, and

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Speaker 4: what he acknowledged was that he actually preferred to be

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Speaker 4: in conversation than not because the confrontation of being, you know,

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Speaker 4: this nerdy guy with a typewriter sitting in the middle

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Speaker 4: of a busy CBD was pretty overwhelming and quite confronting

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Speaker 4: for him. So he actually would prefer to talk to anyone, and.

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Speaker 2: He did talk to anybody like he but he really

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Speaker 2: honored them and he honored their stories and he put

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Speaker 2: many of those stories in. I really enjoyed the book.

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Speaker 2: Trent's swear a lot kind of guy, which I find

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Speaker 2: frustrating every now and again. I think that he just

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Speaker 2: sank into saccharine, syrupy sweetness, which was a bit too

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Speaker 2: much for me. But the highs of the book, the

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Speaker 2: highs are magnificent. They're like five hundred out of five.

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Speaker 2: There are a few pages that I turned. I just

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Speaker 2: went off, this is such a beauty, beautiful story. There

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Speaker 2: were pages that were among some of the most beautiful

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Speaker 2: pages of love that I've ever read anywhere, and I

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Speaker 2: just love that. There were also some things where I

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Speaker 2: was like, you know what, I'm kind of a bit

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Speaker 2: over this or I'm not loving the syrrapy sweetness here.

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Speaker 2: It's just gone a little bit too far. And so overall,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to give him like a four.

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Speaker 3: I just the highs.

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Speaker 2: The highs were so beautiful that it has to be

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Speaker 2: at least afore. But if those highs weren't there, I

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Speaker 2: think I would have struggled with the book.

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Speaker 3: Definitely beautiful in terms.

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Speaker 2: Of heartfelt humanness, and I love his willingness to sit

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Speaker 2: down and have these conversations with people. I think I

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Speaker 2: might do that for my next book about raising boys.

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Speaker 2: I'm actually genuinely legitimately thinking that that could be I

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Speaker 2: don't know, fun or crazy, maybe both, maybe both. We'll

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Speaker 2: talk about the books that we've been reading again next month.

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Speaker 2: And I think based on an email that we got

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Speaker 2: from Claire Claire's a Happy Families podcast listener podcast at

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Speaker 2: happy Families dot com dot if you want to get

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Speaker 2: in touch with us, and she said, what about kids

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Speaker 2: books you've got kids can they tell us a bit

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Speaker 2: about what they're reading.

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Speaker 4: So we're going to find that so funny. Because Lily

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Speaker 4: was sitting in the car with me last month when

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Speaker 4: our book club dropped dropped and she was listening, and

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Speaker 4: she said, can I join this? Can I do this?

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Speaker 4: She said, because she said, you're talking to parents and

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Speaker 4: they've got kids, and I read a lot of books.

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Speaker 4: She's really cue up. She wants to do it.

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Speaker 3: All right, maybe we can get twelve year old and seven.

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Speaker 3: I hang on, e no, she's nine. We can get this.

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Speaker 2: We'll get them all. I don't know if forget we

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Speaker 2: might have to How long do we have book club podcast?

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Speaker 2: It's going to be all month. Thanks so much for

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Speaker 2: listening today. We hope those books are interesting to you

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Speaker 2: and the conversation was intriguing. The Happy Family podcast is

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Speaker 2: produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is

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Speaker 2: our executive producer. We can't wait to talk to you

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Speaker 2: again tomorrow on The Happy Family's podcast, where we dive

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Speaker 2: into our old do Better Tomorrow episode, where we focus

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Speaker 2: on how we can be better parents based on our

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Speaker 2: positives and negatives of the week that once