1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,920 Speaker 1: I think it's almost like an excuse, you know. I 2 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: think people who don't produce a lot, perfectionism is holding 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,960 Speaker 1: them back, you know, because they don't think it's good enough, 4 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: or you know, for whatever reason, they have some insecurity 5 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 1: over it. So I don't I don't know that. I 6 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: actually I don't know a ton of like really successful 7 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: people who are perfectionists, you know. I feel like, maybe 8 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: I mean the ones who are, maybe they're like at 9 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: the top, top top of the game, you know, But 10 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: I think everybody else if you try to have, if 11 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: you try to maintain, it doesn't mean like you're not 12 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: striving for quality and excellence. But those are very different 13 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: things than perfection. 14 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 15 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 16 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha imbat. I'm an 17 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 2: organizational psychologist, the founder of innovation consultancy Inventium, and I'm 18 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 2: obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work date. My 19 00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 2: guest today is Chris Gillibo. Chris is a New York 20 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 2: Times best selling author and modern day explorer, having visited 21 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 2: every country in the world and in case you're wondering 22 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 2: there's one hundred and ninety three in total before his 23 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 2: thirty fifth birthday. But where you might have come across 24 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 2: Chris's work is his writing and thinking around Side Hustles. 25 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 2: So Chris is the author of the one hundred dollars 26 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 2: startup Side Hustle and most recently one hundred Side Hustles 27 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 2: and his daily podcast, Yes that is daily, every single 28 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,479 Speaker 2: day of the week, Side Hustle School is downloaded more 29 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 2: than two million times a month. Chris and I also 30 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 2: happened to share a literary agent, which is how I 31 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 2: got connected with him in the first place. Now, I 32 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 2: found this interview a really interesting one because Chris goes 33 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: against the grain with a lot of traditional productivity advice. 34 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 2: We talk about a bunch of things in this interview, 35 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 2: ranging from email habits, how Chris actually manages to put 36 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 2: out a daily podcast in amongst all his other prox 37 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 2: using waiting time productively, and tips for better travel. So 38 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 2: on that note, over to Chris to hear about how 39 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 2: he works. Hello, Chris, welcome to the show. 40 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 3: Hey Mantha, thanks so much for having me. 41 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 2: I want to start with looking at mornings, which I 42 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 2: feel is quite a cliched way to start these episodes, 43 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 2: and I almost never do. But I was reading that 44 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 2: you said that while most productivity advice says never check 45 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 2: your email in the morning, and I must say, I 46 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 2: am I'm guilty of giving that advice and following it, 47 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 2: you said that you tend to do ten to fifteen 48 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 2: minute check of email in the morning, and I was curious, 49 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 2: is that still the case. 50 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not really. 51 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: I don't have rules or restrictions, you know, for myself 52 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: based on when I'm going to have screen time, you know, 53 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: at night, or when I'm going to check my email 54 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: or any of that kind of stuff. But yeah, I 55 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,959 Speaker 1: do tend to like not dive into email like right away. 56 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: I mean I like look at stuff and see what's 57 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 1: going on, and like send any quick replies and like, 58 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:58,959 Speaker 1: are there any crises you know, in my life that 59 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 1: I don't want to or my life, my work, my business, 60 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: whatever I don't want to miss that, you know, at 61 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 1: like the top of the morning, especially like if I'm traveling, 62 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: and like there's a big gap in time zones and 63 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: you know all that. So I do a bit of that, 64 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: but then I try to, like, you know, do some 65 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: creative work top of the day whenever possible, so that 66 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,519 Speaker 1: I can at least, you know, move forward on those projects. 67 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 2: That's interesting. I must say, it's quite quite refreshing speaking 68 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 2: to someone who writes about productivity but actually doesn't have 69 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 2: a hard and fast rules for email checking. What I'm 70 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 2: curious about, Like I find in my own life, while 71 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 2: generally be successful at staying out of email really like 72 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 2: three or four mornings a week until around lunchtime, but 73 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 2: I find on mornings where I do dip in first 74 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 2: thing that I struggle to get myself out of it quickly. 75 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 2: So I'm wondering, how does that work for you in 76 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 2: terms of just making it a quick check that turns 77 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 2: into a longer check. 78 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: I think I'd be worried if I didn't. I think 79 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: it I would be distracted. 80 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 3: The other way. 81 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: I think I'd be distracted, you know, wondering if there 82 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: was something and it's something important or something like something 83 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: from the day before that I hadn't responded too, or whatever. 84 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 3: And I'm often, I mean like, I'm. 85 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: Often behind, you know, I think just like most people, 86 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: probably not yourself, but most people in the real world 87 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: are behind on their email, and so things do definitely 88 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: stack up and like I definitely don't have inbox zero 89 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: or anything like that, but it's just for me. I 90 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: just find it nice to do a little bit of 91 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: a triage and then it's like, Okay, I don't have 92 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: to worry about putting out any fires at the moment, 93 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 1: and I can go and record my podcast, I can 94 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: go and work on my manuscript. I can go and 95 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: do you know, whatever it is I need to do 96 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: for me. The danger is the other way around for me, 97 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: the dangers that I'm never going to actually get back 98 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 1: to it, like to the email, you know, and because 99 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: I really don't schedule time, you know, to do it. 100 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 3: It's just like during little breaks and such. 101 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 2: Do you have an approach for how you check your inbox? 102 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 2: You said you're not an inbox zero person, Like what 103 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 2: methods do you have for getting through things quickly and 104 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 2: making sure things don't slip through the cracks? 105 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: Well, I mean there's a lot of stuff that'slipping through 106 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: the cracks right now. To be totally honest with you, 107 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: to be candid, like, don't I don't know that I am, 108 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: you know, an email. 109 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 3: Expert at all. 110 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 1: I mean, like I kind of struggle with like I 111 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: find so much value in communicating with like my readers, 112 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: my listeners. That's what I built my whole community, my 113 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: brand such as it is, you know, on this like 114 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: direct contact and hearing their stories and being able to 115 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 1: be accessible and available. And yet you know, at the 116 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 1: same time, like the more I do that, then the 117 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: less creative work I can do. So I don't I 118 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: don't know that I've found like the elixir, you know, 119 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: the solution I finally just did for the very first time. 120 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: I mean, for in ten years, I've never had any 121 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: sort of like auto responder that says don't bother me, 122 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: you know, like I hate that, actually, I think it's 123 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 1: very off putting. And having said that, I just I 124 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: just added one for the very first time too. I 125 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: think it was like two of the email like the 126 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 1: main you know, like the main source of emails that 127 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: come in from my websites and then from the side 128 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 1: Ussel school site as well. And I actually made a 129 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: little video about it because I I was like, look, 130 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: I'm really I send people to a link that says 131 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry for doing this. 132 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 3: I just want to explain why and so. 133 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 2: On, and what made you after ten years decide to 134 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 2: put on and what I respond. 135 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: There, Well, I think there was a gap. That's like 136 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: the cogive distance thing, you know, a gap, a gap 137 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: between what you believe and what you're actually doing, or 138 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 1: like what you say you're doing and what you're doing. 139 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 3: Right. 140 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: So it's kind of like you know, if someone is 141 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: talking about how they're exercising a lot, but they're really not. 142 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: You know, they're gonna they're gonna feel bad. And so 143 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 1: for me, the brand or the community is built on 144 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: this direct contact and yet I was so much was 145 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: slipping through the cracks. 146 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 3: I mean so so much. 147 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: I mean so many people were emailing, you know with 148 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: really good stories or connections or something that's that's personal 149 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: or whatever, and I wasn't getting back to them, and 150 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: I really hated that. 151 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 3: So I think that was it. 152 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 1: It was like I finally recognized that that I'm not 153 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: actually able to live up to the value that I 154 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: had for many years. And so you know, how does 155 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: how does one then handle it? 156 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 3: Basically? 157 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: And that was my you know, I don't know what 158 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: the word is, but like the solution that's not really perfect, 159 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: but you just have to do something and so you 160 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: put duct tape on it or whatever. 161 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 3: That's what that was. 162 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 2: And you mentioned your podcast Side Hustle School, which is 163 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 2: released daily, which blows my mind. And I've heard you 164 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 2: interviewed on other podcasts and I think it probably blows 165 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 2: every podcast as mined. And you've been doing that for 166 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 2: several years, and I need to know how do you 167 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 2: do this, how do you work to a daily release schedule, 168 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 2: and maybe for those that are not familiar with the podcast, 169 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 2: maybe just explaining what it is, what those daily episodes 170 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 2: look like. 171 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, thank you. 172 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: So the podcast is called sid Hustle School, every single day, 173 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: seven days a week. I'm telling a different true story 174 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: of somebody who has a job and is not necessarily 175 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: trying to be a full time entrepreneur, but understands the 176 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:35,679 Speaker 1: value of having a second or a third source of income. 177 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: And so they go out and they start some kind 178 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: of money making project. And I look at like a 179 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: case study approach of how they do that, of how 180 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: they get their idea, how they make it happen, you know, 181 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: what comes up along the way, what challenges they experience, 182 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: and then what the outcome is. So not only the 183 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: outcome in terms of, like, you know, here's how much 184 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: money they made, but also how does this affect their life? 185 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: You know, what additional freedom does it give them, What 186 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: benefit does it bring to their family? 187 00:07:58,520 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 3: And so on. 188 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: So that was my vision to start that about Yeah, 189 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: just going on two and a half years ago. And 190 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: for me, I think I liked the daily thing because 191 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: I think for a lot of reasons. One, I just 192 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: liked the consistency of it. I liked the fact that 193 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: it was like every single day. I think I realized 194 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: after I'd been doing it for a while that doing 195 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: it every day is easier for me than doing it 196 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: three to four times a week would be, basically because 197 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: if it was three times a week, then I would 198 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: I would just kind of forget about it sometimes, you know, 199 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: But if it's every day, it has to happen. 200 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 3: And so I kind of like. 201 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: This just this thing that's kind of built into the routine, 202 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: no matter what else's going on, no matter if I'm traveling, 203 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: no matter et cetera, and there still is an episode 204 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: going out each day. And I also learned in that 205 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: first maybe the first three to four months, that I 206 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: really don't like batching them so much. So I actually 207 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: do record just about every day, at least five days 208 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: a week. So sometimes I might record two or something, 209 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: I might miss days, but like I'm not you know, 210 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: in a room recording seven episodes, you know, on Monday, 211 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:57,839 Speaker 1: and then not recording for the rest of the week. 212 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 2: Wow. Okay, because I was going to ask you about batching, 213 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 2: I just assumed that the surely you're batching this. Wow, 214 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 2: So that was the deliberate decision. Tell me tell me 215 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 2: about that. 216 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: Well, it's I think batching them for me And this 217 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: could just be me, right, but it's just like my 218 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 1: perception was, if you batch them, then it takes away 219 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: the real time nature of it. Now obviously the podcast 220 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: is not going out live, you know, and like we 221 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: do have a bit of a buffer. We have about 222 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: a ten day buffer right now. But nevertheless, and because 223 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: I'm like doing it every day, I feel like, especially 224 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: when I go on book tour, it's like, oh, I'm 225 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: in this city today, you know, I'm going to this 226 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: this place and just didn't didn't. I just felt kind 227 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: of weird doing that if I'm recording like, you know, 228 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: a month's episodes or something at once, And then I think, 229 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: also it's just a practical thing. We didn't have the content, Like, 230 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: we didn't have like when I started the program, I 231 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: had the first seven episodes recorded, and I said, you know, 232 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: January one, twenty seventeen, there'll be an episode every single 233 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: day this year. And I had the first seven, and 234 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:57,839 Speaker 1: I had that for the next the next like seven 235 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: to ten identified in terms of like what the were 236 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: going to be, but you know, not written, recorded, produced, 237 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: et cetera. And then after that I had nothing. So 238 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 1: I was just kind of like, it was just like, 239 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: let's see if we can do this, you know, and 240 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: hopefully the community will sustain itself and people will send 241 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: in referrals and all that. But I liked that element 242 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: of it as well. It kept it kind of fresh 243 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: for me. It felt like I was it felt like 244 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: I was pioneering as opposed to just like maintaining something. 245 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: And I tend to be better when i'm pioneering something 246 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: then when I'm just keeping something going. 247 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 2: That's interesting. And so you've got a ten day buffer 248 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 2: at the moment, which again blows my mind. But I'm 249 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 2: also quite inspired by that. I must say, I kind 250 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 2: of get that that need to be releasing and keeping 251 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 2: it fresh, like I know, for me, when I've done 252 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 2: a whole lot of interviews, and I say, got two 253 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 2: months worth of a schedule all done, it almost feels 254 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 2: a little bit frustrating. So it's like, oh, I just 255 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 2: want to get these episodes out into the world, right 256 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,719 Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, so I can completely relate. 257 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 3: To that pros and cons to everything, you know. 258 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. And in terms of of you know, doing 259 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 2: this daily, what are the I guess shortcuts or things 260 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,199 Speaker 2: that you've learned that help make this a quicker process 261 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 2: because it has to fit into so many other things 262 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 2: going on in. 263 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 3: Your life, right right? 264 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: Well that yeah, then that second part is really key 265 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 1: because like, this isn't the only thing I do. I 266 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: do other stuff, and it's a major thing I do, 267 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: you know, for sure, but it's not the only thing. 268 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: So yeah, that's a good question. What kind of shortcuts 269 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: if I built into it? I mean, I'm fortunate to 270 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:30,959 Speaker 1: work with really great people. That's the first thing I 271 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: would say is I don't do any audio production myself, 272 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: and I have a content manager who's working with various 273 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: writers who are who like then working with all the 274 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: case studies, so I get a lot of stuff that 275 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 1: comes to me and then I do like final edits, 276 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: I write an introduction, I write the conclusion. So we've 277 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: got that down. I would love to say that we've 278 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: got it down to like a factory, but it's not 279 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: quite quite that polished yet. And then maybe just also 280 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: just letting go of stuff, because like, you know, you 281 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: can't actually ship a daily podcast or anything consistently if 282 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: you're a perfectionist. And so fortunately I'm not a perfectionist, 283 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: and I you know, I don't mind saying like, oh, 284 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 1: you know, that wasn't my best, but instead of like 285 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: obsessing over it, I got I just got to keep 286 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 1: going because there's a little bit of a treadmill effect, 287 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: you know to it. And yeah, I think if I 288 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: worried about all the small stuff, it would never happen. 289 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 2: The perfectionist thing is interesting, I find, you know, so 290 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 2: many people that have got to, like the level of 291 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 2: success that you've achieved, are absolutely perfectionist. Is that something 292 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 2: that you were and you had to fight against or 293 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 2: something that you've never had to you know, that's. 294 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: Interesting, I think, I mean, I think it's almost like 295 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: an excuse, you know. I think people who don't produce 296 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: a lot, perfectionism is holding them back, you know, because 297 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: they don't think it's good enough. Or you know, for 298 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: whatever reason, they have some insecurity over it. So I 299 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 1: don't I don't know that. I actually I don't know 300 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: a ton of like really successful people who are perfectionists, 301 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: you know. I feel like maybe I mean the ones 302 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 1: who are, maybe they're like at the top, top top 303 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: of the game. But I think everybody else, if you 304 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: try to have, if you try to maintain it doesn't 305 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,719 Speaker 1: mean like you're not you striving for quality and excellence. 306 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: But those are very different things than perfection, you know. 307 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: I think like nothing is ever perfect. I mean, like 308 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: every book I've written has like at least one typo 309 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: in it, even though you know it's produced by major 310 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: publishers and there's like a lot of people who go 311 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: through it, you know, editors and copy editors and proof readers, 312 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: et cetera. But yet stuff still happens. And so yeah, 313 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think perfectionism is it's either an 314 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: excuse to do something you know that you like, it's 315 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: an excuse to not follow a dream that you have, 316 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: or it's like justification to not not chip something or 317 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: not put it out into the world. 318 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 3: So I'm not a huge fan of it. 319 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 2: I like that way of looking at things. That's really interesting. 320 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 2: And I want to come back to what you said 321 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 2: about the podcast being something that you do every day 322 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 2: and that's an important thing, so there's no negotiating with yourself. 323 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 2: Should I shouldn't I. It's like, I do this daily. 324 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 2: And I've had a few guests on the show that 325 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 2: have talked about just the benefits of having a daily thing, 326 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 2: because suddenly there's not a question of whether you should 327 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 2: do it, you simply do. I've had lots of people 328 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 2: talk about that in relation to exercise, like are there 329 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 2: other things in your life that you just do daily? 330 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 2: So there's no negotiating with yourself. 331 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I do. I mean I definitely try 332 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: to do that. With exercise. I try to do to. 333 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: I tried to be active every day. I tried to 334 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: run every day. I don't have like a three hundred 335 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: and sixty five day running streak, but I tried to 336 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: run at least a mile every day. I think it 337 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: was maybe about a year ago. I finally like broke 338 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: down and got an Apple Watch, like I had every 339 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: other Apple device, and like was like, oh, okay, I'll 340 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: get the Apple Watch. And I got to say, the 341 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: thing that's that's helped me with it. The thing that 342 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: I like the best about it is this, like the 343 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: fitness tracker stuff that's built in to me is like 344 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: the number one feature because it's it's very conducive toward 345 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: people who are compulsive and motivated by streaks or motivated 346 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: by goals or you know, numerical challenges or whatever. So 347 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: you know, if you set your numbers and it's like, oh, 348 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: I got I got a ten day streak. Oh I 349 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: want to get a month long streak. Oh I want 350 00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: to get a year long streak, and so you know, 351 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: I definitely am motivated that way. I'm trying to think 352 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: of it as anything else like that. I don't know 353 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: if it's it's I think it's probably like the podcasts 354 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: that I do every day, and then some sort of 355 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: wellness thing, and then I do lots of other stuff 356 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: like from time to time. I used to write a 357 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: thousand words a day. That was my metric for a 358 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: long time, and I still like that metric, but I'm 359 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: not I'm not really adhering to it at the moment. 360 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 2: What what stuffed you having that? As as as a daily, 361 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 2: richual rhythm around writing. 362 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 3: Well, I think all the other stuff. 363 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: I think, like everything else I start doing, you know, 364 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: like all the all the other when I when I 365 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: have like a season of book writing, so I go 366 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: through seasons. And here's the other thing about the other 367 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: thing that really helps me is the is just the 368 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: accountability and partnering with with publishers or like in the 369 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: case of my podcast, like I'm working with an imprint, 370 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: a distributor, et cetera. Because I have a publisher, like 371 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: I can't I can't just say like, hey, guys, you 372 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: know the book was supposed to come out. 373 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 3: You know what. 374 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: Last book came out June fourth. I can't say like, hey, actually, 375 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: how about July. You know, I can't like come up 376 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: like two weeks beforehand and do that. Whereas if it 377 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: were me, if I was the one in charge of 378 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: all the decisions, I probably would And that's not a 379 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: good thing. 380 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 3: You know. 381 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: It's like it's a much better to be like here's 382 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: the date, ready or not? You know, which is what 383 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: I like about live events. 384 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 3: You know, with live. 385 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: Events, like we just finished a big one in Portland, Oregon, 386 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: and every every single year it's always like, oh, wouldn't 387 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: it be great to have ten more days to prepare, 388 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: But that's not how events work, you know, because people 389 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: have blocked out time and bought their plane ticket and 390 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: all that. So you have to make it work somehow. 391 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: So forcing that kind of accountability, however you do so, 392 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: has also been helpful to me. But I think you 393 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: asked me a different question. You asked me about the 394 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: thousand words. When I'm in a book writing season, then 395 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: I'm then that's that's where I stick with. But I've 396 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: been on tour recently and then hosting the events, so 397 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: I'll be getting back to that book writing season and 398 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: then then I'll kind of pick that up again. 399 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 2: I want to shift gears to time tracking because I've 400 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 2: read that you are a time tracker, you track your time, 401 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 2: and I think I'm possibly inspired by Laura van Decam 402 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 2: with that. I think you've written, I'm curious, Yeah, how 403 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 2: did you get started with time tracking? 404 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: Well, I don't actually do it now, I have done it, 405 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: and it was insightful to me. But I also found 406 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: that it takes a lot of time to track your time. 407 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: And I think I think Laura actually addresses that that objection, 408 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: you know somehow, but I'm not sure what her response is. Yeah, 409 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: I mean Laura Is that is like, you know, the 410 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 1: queen of that and has been tracking every single hour 411 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: her day for years and years, and she's just so 412 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: so good at those things. And so I did read 413 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: about that from her, and I follow that exercise and 414 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 1: did it for a couple of weeks, and I thought 415 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: it was interesting for sure, you know, but I don't 416 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 1: think like I've kept up with it. I mean for 417 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: the most part. I mean, here's the bottom line is, 418 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 1: for the most part, I do what I want to do, 419 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: you know, like I feel like I live in the 420 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: get too world, Like I get to do this, I 421 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: get to make the show, I get to write books. 422 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: But people care about what I produce, you know, and 423 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 1: that's a very wonderful, fortunate thing. And so second thing. 424 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: Second thing is because I like what I do, I'm 425 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 1: doing it a lot. I have no desire to like 426 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: work less or you know, look at my life and 427 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: determine that out of balance. In some way, you know, 428 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: everything that I do kind of kind of works works together. 429 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: And so when I did the time tracking thing, I 430 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 1: don't think I went away with like a huge insight like, 431 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I'm wasting six hours a week on 432 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: this thing. It was more just like being intentional, being 433 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: aware and just trying to notice anything that makes sense. 434 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've personally found that it's such a hard habit 435 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 2: to stick to. And I had Laura on the show 436 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 2: a little while ago, and gosh, she's been doing it 437 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 2: for years. The time track. Yeah, I know, it's inspiring, 438 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 2: although I did. I got this device. I don't know 439 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 2: if you've come across it, called time you Lab. It's 440 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 2: like an eight sided dice, is the best way to 441 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 2: describe it, A bit bigger than that, sort of like 442 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 2: half the size of a phone, I guess, and you 443 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,719 Speaker 2: can label the eight sides of your eight most common 444 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 2: activities and then you just put it the side up 445 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 2: of the activity that you're doing and it tracks that. 446 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 3: So that's interesting. 447 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was kind of interesting, little bit buggy, but 448 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 2: it's the best thing I've found to actually time track 449 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 2: and not have it been this completely frustrating, annoying thing. 450 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: I like that it's like a manual, like a dexterious thing, right, 451 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 1: the thing that you're actually carrying around or it's. 452 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 3: On your desk, right, Yeah, exactly. I like that. 453 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: That's a little bit just because like I always have 454 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: so many tabs in programs up and it's like, do 455 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: I need to have an Excel tab where I'm putting 456 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: in all my hours and stuff? I think, I think 457 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: that's doing it that way is. 458 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 3: Kind of fun. 459 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 2: Now, on the topic of time, I've heard you talk 460 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 2: about using waiting time productively, and I'm curious because you 461 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 2: travel a lot. That's one of the things that you're 462 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 2: known for, and with travel comes a lot of waiting time, 463 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 2: and I'm curious, like, what how do you use I 464 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 2: guess what some people would call dead time in a 465 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 2: way that is productive or enriching. 466 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: Well, I think most of us, as we go through 467 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 1: daily life, there are all of these pockets of time, 468 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: you know, which you can't and be captured in some way, 469 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: you know, as opposed to being dead time or just 470 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: time that's wasted or whatever. And I mean, first firstly, 471 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: let's say, you know, it's okay to not like be 472 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: working all the time. It's okay to like be in 473 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: the uber or the taxi and just like look out 474 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: the window, you know. But I think, you know, for 475 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: all those times that were being like intentionally mindful, there's 476 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: also just a lot of other time we're just kind 477 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: of sitting around or whatever. And especially if you're a traveler, 478 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: as you said, I mean a traveler. A traveler's life 479 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: is composed of a lot of waiting. 480 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 3: You know. 481 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: I remember when I first went to every country in 482 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: the world. I began this project, this quest I did 483 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: for eleven years, and a lot of people were reading 484 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: my blog because of that, and people would so many 485 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: people would say, I want to travel with you, and 486 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: I would always say, no, you don't like because you're 487 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: You're like imagination of it is like it's this Indiana 488 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,719 Speaker 1: Jones thing and in reality, like I'm just I'm waiting 489 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: so much. I'm so much waiting for the bus or 490 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: for the train station or for the the whatever. And 491 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: I'm okay with that, Like I made my peace with that, 492 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 1: but a lot of people, you know, not so much 493 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: so capturing time, like I always have a notebook with me, 494 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 1: a paper netbook, like a journal. I almost always have 495 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: my laptop with me. And it's like, if you've got 496 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 1: ten minutes, there's there are a lot of things you 497 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 1: can do in ten minutes. You know, you might not 498 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: be able to, like make a lot of progress on 499 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 1: a big creative project, like you might not be able 500 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: to write your book ten minutes at a time. But 501 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: there or maybe you maybe you can't. I mean, who knows, 502 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: But there's there's so many other things that can can 503 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: be done, and so I try to maintain like a 504 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 1: list of like you know, I use I do use Omnifocus, 505 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 1: the software to track like my projects and tasks, and 506 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: so I've got a list of like here's things I 507 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:32,919 Speaker 1: can do and I'm online. Here are things I can 508 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 1: do when I'm offline. Here are things I need to 509 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: do in my office. Here are things I need to do, 510 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: you know, away from the way from the computer and errands. 511 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: I need to run phone calls and so on. So 512 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: whenever I'm in these situation, it's like I always can always 513 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 1: like look at something and you know, make a little 514 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: bit of progress towards one of those objectives that's handy. 515 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 2: So so you've almost got lists of things that can 516 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 2: be done during those those waiting times or dead times. 517 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 2: I guess it's almost like being prepared for that waite 518 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 2: time and using it well. And I'm curious, like what, like, 519 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 2: given how much you've traveled, and I'm like I feel 520 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 2: like a novice traveler compared to you, although I travel 521 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 2: sort of at least once a fortnite if not every week, 522 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 2: just yeah, mostly domestically for work. So I wanted, I like, 523 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 2: what what are your best sort of travel tips for 524 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 2: I don't know, the kind of like those quick domestic 525 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 2: trips that I guess a lot of probably a lot 526 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 2: of listeners are making for work every. 527 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: Week, right, I mean, I'm not sure. Besides some of 528 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: what we talked about in terms of capturing your time 529 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: and maybe maybe a big picture thing that I think 530 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: is true whether you're traveling or not, is you know. 531 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: I'm very focused on outcomes and like, what are my deliverables? 532 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: What do I need to finish today? As opposed to 533 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,719 Speaker 1: you know, between nine am and nine forty am, I'm 534 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: working on this kind of thing. Like some people work 535 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: well with that approach, but for me, it's all about 536 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: like what has to actually you know, be finished, you know. 537 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: And so if I spend thirty minutes working on something, 538 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: but I don't actually complete the part of the task 539 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: I need to, and I'm not really happy with myself. 540 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 1: Whereas I feel like this you know, positive you know, 541 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: momentum boost or whatever if I make progress on it. 542 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: So I think I've just tried to construct my whole 543 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: life like that, and it's not It's not so much 544 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: whether I'm doing a domestic trip or like around the 545 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: world trip, or whether I'm not traveling at all. It's 546 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: just all kind of connected, you know, wherever I am. 547 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,679 Speaker 2: And how about for for jet lag? Because I imagine you 548 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 2: would experience jet lag many many times a year. What 549 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 2: what is your I guess your protocol for jet lag. 550 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 3: I don't think there's a perfect solution. 551 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean I heard, I've heard every you know, 552 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: proposed solution, and people who travel, like have traveled like 553 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: once in their life will email me and say here's 554 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: what you need to do, you know, and I'm like, 555 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: thank you very much, you know, but I'm not immune 556 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: to it. Like sometimes i will have like a really 557 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 1: big trip and come back and I'm perfectly fine. I'm like, 558 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 1: this is amazing, and the next time it's it's completely opposite, 559 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: and I'm just kind of wrecked. So I don't really 560 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 1: try to I mean, like the usual things, like you know, 561 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: get sunlight, it's good, you can to like get on 562 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: that time zone before you leave, you know, eat meals 563 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: at certain hours, So I do that kind of stuff. 564 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 1: But you know, for the most part, I just kind 565 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: of go with the flow. For the most part, I 566 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: don't plan my life. It's like the weather, Like I've 567 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: never I don't really care what the weather is. Like 568 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: people are really obsessed with, like what's the weather like today. 569 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: I'm like, what are you going to do that's different 570 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: in your life? Like, like, you know, maybe if you're 571 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: like a professional like ultimate frisbee player or something, or 572 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: if you're a landscaper, like if you're working outside, then 573 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: I understand that's relevant. But for those of us who 574 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,239 Speaker 1: are not doing that most of our time, you know, 575 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 1: why do you need to know if it's going to 576 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 1: rain or not? Like it doesn't really matter. And so 577 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: the same for me is true with the jet lag. 578 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: You know, I'm I'm going to go somewhere. 579 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 3: I might be tired. 580 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 1: They're okay, fine, but i still have to do what 581 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 1: I need to do there, and I'm either going to 582 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: do it when I'm tired, I'm going to do it 583 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: when I'm fresh, and that's great, and then I'm going 584 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: to come back and then you know, again, it's just 585 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 1: like a lifestyle. So I don't really worry about stuff. 586 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 2: Like that I was reading through some I guess some 587 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 2: of your earlier blog posts, maybe from a few years ago, 588 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 2: and one of your posts you write for someone who 589 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 2: built brand around nonconformity. I've cared a lot, way too 590 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 2: much about what other people think of me. Is that 591 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 2: something you still relate to? 592 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I do. I mean I think less 593 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: and less. I think partly it's just like a matter 594 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: of getting older. And you know, is that you know, 595 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: when you get older, you care less about what people think, 596 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: which is good. But yeah, I think I felt, like, 597 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: you know, I used the phrase cognitive dissonance earlier in 598 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: terms of like email, I think I felt that as 599 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 1: well in terms of like of nonconformity or just you know, 600 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: maybe some personal aspects of my life or decisions I 601 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: was making, Like am I aligned with my value? Like 602 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: I've got stated values here, so you know, you have 603 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 1: your actions have to line up with those. And I 604 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: guess I realized, you know, that I did care a 605 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: lot about you know, how people perceive me or you know, 606 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: my status or my ego or something. And so just 607 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: kind of being aware of that was that was very helpful. 608 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 2: And was there anything that you did deliberately aside from 609 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 2: just letting yourself get older, that helped you. I guess, y, yeah, 610 00:25:58,200 --> 00:25:58,479 Speaker 2: that's good. 611 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: I'm trying to I mean like say, like there was 612 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: some like life circumstances that happened, But what did I 613 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: do deliberately? I mean maybe maybe in some ways, I 614 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: just came to a point where I felt like I 615 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 1: had to I had to like make some changes. I 616 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 1: had to be willing to, like, you know, look at 617 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: the big picture and say what kind of work do 618 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 1: I want to do? What kind of community do I 619 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: want to be in? What kind of relationships do I 620 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 1: want to have? You know, is that the same same 621 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 1: answer that it was five years ago, ten years ago, 622 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: or whatever. I think, because it's easy for anybody to 623 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: get into a rut of like this is what I've 624 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: been doing. So but you know, anybody who's listening, you 625 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: don't have to wait for that to happen to you, 626 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: like you can actually do it proactively. And I think 627 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 1: that's that's more impressive. Just like I have so many 628 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: stories of people who have lost their job, you know, 629 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: they've been fired or laid off or made redundant, and 630 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: that later they go on and say, actually I was 631 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 1: crushed when it happened, but it turned out to be 632 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: the best thing that ever happened to me. So I 633 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: got a lot of stories like that. But I think 634 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 1: it's more impressive when somebody is like, actually, my job 635 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,479 Speaker 1: is okay, you know, but I don't love it, And 636 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,360 Speaker 1: so what is the thing that I love? How can 637 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: I actually, you know, devote myself to that without waiting 638 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 1: for you know, a crisis or a trauma to occur. 639 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: So I'm not sure I'm the best, you know, I'm 640 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,120 Speaker 1: the best role model. I think people can take action 641 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: wherever they are without waiting for something to happen. 642 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 2: And something else I was curious about. You wrote about 643 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 2: like a strategy that you will sometimes use that I 644 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 2: think you'd learn in therapy way You'll ask yourself the question, 645 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 2: what is six year old Chris feeling right now? 646 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's kind of deep. I mean, that's deep. 647 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: You know, that's kind of like you know, our inner 648 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: child's you know, which kind of continues, you know, with us, 649 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: especially when we encounter situations that are difficult to produce 650 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: emotions like anxiety or fear or you know, the sense 651 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: of like wanting to do something, desperate or to be 652 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: possessive of something like all this kind of stuff. It 653 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: connects to like you know, six year old being afraid 654 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: of something you or six year old longing for something, 655 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: and you know you have to kind of, you know, 656 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 1: either either like directly or subconsciously, you know, address that 657 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: somehow and you know, reassure yourself that you be okay 658 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: if this thing that you want it doesn't turn out, 659 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: or you know, something goes differently, or you know, whatever, 660 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: whatever the case may be. It's I said earlier, like 661 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: I'm really focused on outcomes, Like I'm focused on the 662 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 1: outcomes of things I can create, and I try to 663 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: be less and less focused on the outcomes of things 664 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 1: I can't control. And that's not a like it's not 665 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 1: like a journey or it's not like a destination where 666 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: you're like, yep, I'm there now. It's definitely a journey. 667 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: But I think that's the goal to like to not 668 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: be attached to things that are outside our control. 669 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 2: And how does that work? Like, you know, right now, 670 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 2: for example, you're on the road promoting a book, like 671 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 2: your latest book. What does that look like in terms 672 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 2: of I guess outcomes that you're striving towards That you 673 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 2: can control versus those that you can't. 674 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's really good. I think this is 675 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: a good example because this book was coming out at 676 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: a time in which was like three weeks out from 677 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: my largest event of the year that I produced, an 678 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: organ you know, like a thousand people come, and like 679 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: I mentioned that because I knew going into I was like, 680 00:28:58,440 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: it's gonna be tough to kind of do both things, 681 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:01,719 Speaker 1: Like I worry that both of them are going to suffer. 682 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: But the long story short is there wasn't any other 683 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: way to do that timing and so and also this 684 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: book is also kind of creative and different from all 685 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: my others, and so the good thing about it is 686 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: there's not the same commercial pressure or expectation that I 687 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: that I have either self applied or you know, from 688 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 1: the industry or the publisher whatever, that I would for 689 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: another book. 690 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 3: So that's good. 691 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: But I definitely have had to kind of practice it, like, Okay, 692 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: this you know, hopefully this book is going to have 693 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: like a lifespan and it's going to have legs and 694 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: reached enough people like it needs to be successful at 695 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: a like a certain level. 696 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 3: But I'm okay with it. 697 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: Not being like you know, a blockbuster bestseller or whatever. 698 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: So and just recognizing as you said, like I can't. 699 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: I can do everything I can to like push it 700 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: or whatever. But really, in the end, like books and 701 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: anything else in life, like books in particular, they succeed 702 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: in the long term if people read them and talk 703 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: about them. That's you know, that's the only way a 704 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: book has true legs, and like you know, a long 705 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: tail of sales. 706 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 2: And look, my final question for you, Chris, is if 707 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 2: people want to consume more of what you're doing, what 708 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 2: is the best way to do that? Ah? 709 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: Sure, Well, yeah, I'm an author, so my books are 710 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: you know, at any online retailer or a local bookstore. 711 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: The podcast is called Side Hustle School, it's free, it's 712 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: every day, it's in Apple podcast or Spotify or wherever 713 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts. And then my original blog it's 714 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: called The Art of Noneconformity, which you can get to 715 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: by searching for that phrase or my name, Chris Gilibo. 716 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 2: Fantastic, Well, Chris, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to 717 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 2: you and hearing about your life, your travel, and your work. 718 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 2: So thank you so. 719 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 3: Much, thank you so much, Thank you so much. The 720 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 3: pleasure is mine. 721 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 2: That is it for today's show. I hope you enjoyed 722 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 2: my chat with Chris, and I hope that if you 723 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 2: do happen to be a perfectionist, you're now perhaps questioning 724 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 2: your perfectionistic tendencies and rethinking all of that. Maybe they're 725 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 2: getting in the way of your productivity and outputs. So 726 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 2: that is it for today's show. If you liked it, 727 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 2: please leave a review in Apple Podcasts or wherever you 728 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 2: listen to this show, and I will see you next time.