WEBVTT - Why is Trump threatening Harvard?

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<v Speaker 1>Already, and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>now it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 2>Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Thursday,

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<v Speaker 2>the seventeenth of April. I'm Zara Seidler.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Sam Kazlowski.

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<v Speaker 2>Harvard University is facing a major financial blow after the

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<v Speaker 2>Trump administration froze two point two billion dollars in federal

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<v Speaker 2>funding this week. The prestigious institution has refused to comply

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<v Speaker 2>with a series of government demands relating to both diversity

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<v Speaker 2>policies and anti semitism. Today, we're unpacking what's happened in

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<v Speaker 2>this unprecedented standoff between one of America's most elite universities

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<v Speaker 2>and the White House.

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<v Speaker 1>Zara, this is a pretty significant development in President Trump's

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<v Speaker 1>relationship with universities, American universities, which is some of the

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<v Speaker 1>most famous in the world. Can you break down exactly

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<v Speaker 1>what's happened here though with Harvard?

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<v Speaker 2>So earlier this week, the Trump administration announced that it

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<v Speaker 2>was freezing around two point two billion US dollars, So

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<v Speaker 2>that's around three point five billion Australian dollars in grants

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<v Speaker 2>to Harvard Universities. Now, that came in response to Harvard

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<v Speaker 2>refusing to comply with a list of demands that came

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<v Speaker 2>from the government. Now, as you said, there is some

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<v Speaker 2>context here between the relationship of the Trump administration and

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<v Speaker 2>specifically higher education in the United States, and more specifically,

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<v Speaker 2>over the last several weeks, we've really seen the Trump

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<v Speaker 2>administration putting this increased pressure on universities, specifically focusing around

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<v Speaker 2>two main issues. Now, those issues are anti semitism on

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<v Speaker 2>campuses and DEI, which we know stands for diversity, equity

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<v Speaker 2>and inclusion when it comes to hiring and admission practices. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>the government has been warning universities that if they don't

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<v Speaker 2>comply with their demands on these issues, they could stand

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<v Speaker 2>to lose billions in federal funding.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so before we get into the specific demands, can

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<v Speaker 1>you give us a bit of background on Harvard's relationship

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<v Speaker 1>with government funding. Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>So, I'm sure many of our listeners are familiar with Harvard.

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<v Speaker 2>It's one of, if not the world's, most prestigious universities.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a Lacrosse did not go there.

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<v Speaker 2>Mike Ross from since did not attend, but many other

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<v Speaker 2>famous people have attended. Its alumni and faculty have earned

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<v Speaker 2>more than one hundred and sixty Nobel Prizes, with the

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<v Speaker 2>most recent one being awarded just this year. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think that that paints a very clear picture about the

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<v Speaker 2>caliber of participants at this college. And when it comes

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<v Speaker 2>to finances, like many other colleges, Harvard has an endowment,

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<v Speaker 2>So that's basically a fund of donated money that has

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<v Speaker 2>been incoming into the college. Now, Harvard's endowment stands at

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<v Speaker 2>around fifty billion dollars, whoa heaps of money. However, the

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<v Speaker 2>university does still rely quite heavily on federal funding for

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<v Speaker 2>research in particular. In fact, in twenty twenty four, the

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<v Speaker 2>US government supplied about sixty eight percent of Harvard's outside

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<v Speaker 2>research funding. So the freeze that we've been talking about

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<v Speaker 2>represents quite a significant portion of federal research grants and

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<v Speaker 2>contracts for Harvard.

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<v Speaker 1>So how did we get here? I mean, this is

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<v Speaker 1>a really major escalation. There is so much going on

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<v Speaker 1>in the Trump administration at the moment, it's interesting that

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<v Speaker 1>we got to this point. What led to this standoff?

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<v Speaker 2>Look, the short answer here is that this has been

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<v Speaker 2>brewing for a long time.

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<v Speaker 3>It hasn't come out of nowhere.

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<v Speaker 2>Both during the campaign and then once Donald Trump was inaugurated,

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<v Speaker 2>he made very clear that he had colleges, especially Ivy

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<v Speaker 2>League colleges, which are kind of the upper echelon of

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<v Speaker 2>US colleges, He had them in his sites, and he

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<v Speaker 2>has stood firm on that. He believes that they need

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<v Speaker 2>to be doing more on anti semitism, and he believes

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<v Speaker 2>that there is too much of a focus on DEI,

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<v Speaker 2>so those diversity and inclusion programs at these colleges, and

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<v Speaker 2>so over the past couple of months, he's basically been

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<v Speaker 2>implementing this crackdown on those colleges. When it comes to

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<v Speaker 2>Harvard in particular, though, this started on March thirty first,

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<v Speaker 2>when the White House announced that it was conducting a

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<v Speaker 2>review of Harvard's federal contracts and grants, specifically with the

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<v Speaker 2>aim to combat anti semitism. Then last Friday, the administration

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<v Speaker 2>sent a letter to Harvard's president, doctor Alan Garba, stating

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<v Speaker 2>that the university had quote failed to live up to

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<v Speaker 2>both the intellectual and civil rights conditions that justify federal investment.

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<v Speaker 1>I's strongly worded.

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<v Speaker 2>Very I mean, if there's one thing about this story,

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<v Speaker 2>it's that nothing has been lightly worded on either side here. Basically,

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<v Speaker 2>though that letter that I was just talking about that

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<v Speaker 2>was sent last Friday, detailed a list of demands from

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<v Speaker 2>the Trump administration to Harvard that the college would need

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<v Speaker 2>to meet in order to maintain its federal funding.

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<v Speaker 1>And what type When you said demands, what type of

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<v Speaker 1>thing are you talking about here? You're talking about like

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<v Speaker 1>course curriculums and all of that question.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it is quite unfamiliar to an Australian audience,

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<v Speaker 2>and it is fairly unprecedented until now to have a

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<v Speaker 2>sort of list of demands sent to a private institution.

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<v Speaker 2>The demands are themselves pretty extensive, so I guess I'll

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<v Speaker 2>just go through a high level run through of what

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<v Speaker 2>they are. So, the government wants Harvard to hire independent

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<v Speaker 2>auditors to ensure that its departments have what they call

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<v Speaker 2>diverse viewpoints, though we don't actually get any elaboration in

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<v Speaker 2>the letter about what that means. Other demands include the

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<v Speaker 2>government wanting oversight of Harvard's hiring, promotions, and admissions processes.

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<v Speaker 2>They've also demanded that Harvard reject applicants from non US

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<v Speaker 2>citizens who are deemed to be hostile to American values.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a direct quote there, but again that term isn't

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<v Speaker 2>actually defined On top of that, the government wants Harvard

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<v Speaker 2>to report any international student accused of breaking university rules

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<v Speaker 2>directly to the federal government, so rather than working through

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<v Speaker 2>an internal process, that that process be expedited and sent

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<v Speaker 2>straight to the government. The administration also calls for a

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<v Speaker 2>ban on face masks and an end to funding quote

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<v Speaker 2>any student group or club that endorses or promotes criminal activity,

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<v Speaker 2>illegal violence, or illegal harassment. Now that's kind of the

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<v Speaker 2>clearest link made to the pro Palestinian protests that we

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<v Speaker 2>saw on college campuses, the encampments that we saw last year.

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<v Speaker 2>But then the Trump administration also requests that Harvard reforms

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<v Speaker 2>programs with egregious records of anti Semitism or other bias.

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<v Speaker 1>And by programs them in courses right.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, and departments.

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<v Speaker 2>So a similar request was made of Columbia, and they

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<v Speaker 2>basically had to move the management of the Middle East

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<v Speaker 2>department at that college under different management. And so they

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<v Speaker 2>are looking for Harvard here to commission an external party,

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<v Speaker 2>and that external party needs to be a pro by

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<v Speaker 2>the government themselves to audit those programs and departments that

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<v Speaker 2>they say most fuel antisemitic harassment.

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<v Speaker 1>So this is clearly not business as usual. No, in

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<v Speaker 1>terms of the standard relationship between a government and a

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<v Speaker 1>US university. How has Harvard now responded to these demands.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, Harvard has pretty firmly rejected those demands.

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<v Speaker 1>Which puts funding on the line right well exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's why we're talking about it today. So

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<v Speaker 2>doctor Alan Garba, who I mentioned was the president, he

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<v Speaker 2>came out with a very strongly worded statement where he said,

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<v Speaker 2>no government, regardless of which party is in power, should

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<v Speaker 2>dictate what private universities can teach, whom they can admit

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<v Speaker 2>and hire, and which areas of study and inquiry they

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<v Speaker 2>can pursue. We were then shown a letter from Harvard

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<v Speaker 2>lawyers who argued that the demands by the Trump administration

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<v Speaker 2>violate Harvard's right to free speech and that they also

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<v Speaker 2>exceed the government's authority. I was reading through that letter

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<v Speaker 2>and I'll just pull out a few of the key quotes.

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<v Speaker 2>The lawyers claim that Harvard is committed to fighting anti

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<v Speaker 2>Semitism and other forms of bigotry, and that anti Semitism

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<v Speaker 2>and discrimination of any kind not only are a borrant

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<v Speaker 2>and antithetical to Harvard's values, but also threaten its academic mission.

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<v Speaker 2>But ultimately then the letter by those lawyers concludes that

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<v Speaker 2>Harvard is not prepared to agree to the demands that

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<v Speaker 2>go beyond the lawful authority of this or any administration.

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<v Speaker 2>And so we have there a refusal by Harvard to

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<v Speaker 2>respond to the demands or to make the change that

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<v Speaker 2>the Trump administration want. And therefore we fast forward, and

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<v Speaker 2>the White House has now announced the immediate freezing of

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<v Speaker 2>more than a quarter of Harvard's federal research grants and contracts.

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<v Speaker 1>And just to zoom out for one sec this is

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<v Speaker 1>now becoming a common theme of the legal opposition to

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<v Speaker 1>the Trump administration in this second term, of trying to

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<v Speaker 1>examine what is and is outside of the scope of

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<v Speaker 1>presidential power. I mean, there's a group of small businesses

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<v Speaker 1>in the Marriaka taking the administrations to court this week over tariff,

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<v Speaker 1>saying it is exceeding the powers usually given to a president.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's interesting that this isn't just in this area,

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<v Speaker 1>it's across a lot of different areas. So the administration

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<v Speaker 1>comes out and freezes a quarter of Harvard's federal research grants.

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<v Speaker 1>What's been the response to Harvard taking that stand.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, it's been fairly mixed, and I don't think that

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<v Speaker 2>that would surprise anyone. On the one hand, there are

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<v Speaker 2>current and former students who are backing Harvard's moves, suggesting

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<v Speaker 2>that this is upholding the integrity of the institution. One

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<v Speaker 2>of those former students you might be familiar with is

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<v Speaker 2>one Barack Obama.

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<v Speaker 1>I've heard of him.

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<v Speaker 3>He's, you know, a familiar name.

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<v Speaker 2>He attended Harvard, and he took to social media to

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<v Speaker 2>praise the decision. He said, it's set an example for

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<v Speaker 2>other higher ed institutions to reject an unlawful and handhanded

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<v Speaker 2>attempt to stifle academic freedom while taking concrete steps to

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<v Speaker 2>make sure all students at Harvard can bear fit from

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<v Speaker 2>an environment of intellectual inquiry, rigorous debate, and mutual respect.

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<v Speaker 2>And that precedent point is really important here, because, as

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<v Speaker 2>we've briefly inferred, Harvard is not the only school that

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<v Speaker 2>is experiencing this sort of like negotiation with the Trump administration.

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<v Speaker 2>I mentioned earlier that Columbia is another such school that

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<v Speaker 2>Donald Trump has in his sights. They are currently in

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<v Speaker 2>negotiations with the Trump administration, and what we understand is

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<v Speaker 2>that they have agreed to a number of the demands

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<v Speaker 2>made by the administration, but here we have Harvard, at

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<v Speaker 2>least to the public, being the first school to actively

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<v Speaker 2>reject the demands made. And so what precedent this sets

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<v Speaker 2>for other schools across the country who are also looking

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<v Speaker 2>at having their funding frozen. It is really interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>Is there more that President Trump can continue to kind

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<v Speaker 1>of threaten threaten Harvard with? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's a good question, because Donald Trump is

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<v Speaker 2>certainly doubling down. He is now talking about whether or

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<v Speaker 2>not Harvard should lose its tax exempt status, and he

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<v Speaker 2>is suggesting that perhaps Harvard needs to be taxed as

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<v Speaker 2>a political entity. He says, and I'm quoting here if

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<v Speaker 2>it keeps pushing political ideological and terrorist inspired supporting sickness.

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<v Speaker 2>And so, just to be clear that if the tax

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<v Speaker 2>exemption status of Harvard were to change, which would be

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<v Speaker 2>highly significant, we could again see Harvard losing billions and

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<v Speaker 2>billions of dollars under this move. But there hasn't been

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<v Speaker 2>any confirmation from the administration beyond that truth social post

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<v Speaker 2>that the Trump administration is actually thinking about doing this.

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<v Speaker 1>Right now, perhaps I'll just break that down a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit more so, at the moment, Harvard would be taxed

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<v Speaker 1>zero dollars for any of its income because it's classified

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<v Speaker 1>as an education institution, and that's essentially a saving it

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<v Speaker 1>makes because it doesn't pay money to the tax office.

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<v Speaker 1>A political entity would be taxed a higher amount than zero.

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<v Speaker 1>And Trump is basically saying that, you know, you could

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<v Speaker 1>wake up tomorrow morning, Harvard, and you could have a

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<v Speaker 1>tax bill that could potentially be in the hundreds of millions.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so that's a pretty serious next step. Where do

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<v Speaker 1>you see this all going, what happens next? And could

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<v Speaker 1>Harvard actually even appeal decisions against it?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, again, I think it does need to be restated

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<v Speaker 2>that this is a fairly unprecedented situation, both for Harvard

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<v Speaker 2>and for the administration. There's not really anything that either

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<v Speaker 2>of them can point to in terms of next steps

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<v Speaker 2>that are clearly set out. So one option is that, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>Harvard could challenge this in court. They could argue that

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<v Speaker 2>there has been government overreach and that the demands violate

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<v Speaker 2>principles of academic freedom. Another alternative is that they could

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<v Speaker 2>go back to the negotiating table exactly, and that they

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<v Speaker 2>could settle on a compromise with the administration, though at

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<v Speaker 2>this point that does seem less likely. But you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we have no idea what's happening behind closed doors. But

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<v Speaker 2>in the meantime, the existential threat that Harvard has to

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<v Speaker 2>deal with is that it now has this huge funding

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<v Speaker 2>gap that has almost entirely emerged overnight.

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<v Speaker 3>And so I was reading that there have.

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<v Speaker 2>Been a number of stop work orders made to certain

0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:13.920
<v Speaker 2>faculties undergoing research, that their research grants have just been

0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:18.320
<v Speaker 2>taken and therefore they cannot continue to invest in that research.

0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:20.280
<v Speaker 1>So don't come to work today because we don't have

0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:21.400
<v Speaker 1>the money to pay you right now.

0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.120
<v Speaker 2>Correct, And so I suspect we'll see a bit more

0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:27.160
<v Speaker 2>of that over the coming weeks and months. But this

0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:31.040
<v Speaker 2>story is still developing, and whether or not either party

0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:34.559
<v Speaker 2>negotiates compromises, we really don't know at this point.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a really interesting stories, Szara, that, as we've said

0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:42.280
<v Speaker 1>a couple of times now, doesn't have a historical example

0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:44.840
<v Speaker 1>for us to go and look at and examine what

0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:46.600
<v Speaker 1>could happen next. So we're going to have to keep

0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:48.880
<v Speaker 1>a really close eye on this one. And thank you

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<v Speaker 1>for listening to this episode of The Daily Oz. We'll

0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:55.679
<v Speaker 1>be back in the afternoon with our afternoon headlines. If

0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:57.800
<v Speaker 1>you enjoyed this episode, Flick it to a friend means

0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:03.920
<v Speaker 1>the world to us. We'll speak to you later. My

0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:06.959
<v Speaker 1>name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda Bunjelung

0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:11.360
<v Speaker 1>Kalkadoon woman from Gadighl country. The Daily oz acknowledges that

0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:13.880
<v Speaker 1>this podcast is recorded on the lands of the Gadighl

0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:17.280
<v Speaker 1>people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and torrest Rate

0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:20.240
<v Speaker 1>island and nations. We pay our respects to the first

0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:22.760
<v Speaker 1>peoples of these countries, both past and present.