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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Dunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcuttin woman from Gadigl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to The Daily oz. It's Thursday,

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Speaker 2: the twenty third of February. I'm Zara Tom Welcome back.

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Speaker 3: Thanks Sara, it's a pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 2: What are we talking about today.

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Speaker 3: We're talking about the United Nations Torture Investigation Body, which

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Speaker 3: is canceled a visit to Australia because it can't access

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Speaker 3: all the sites it needs to investigate. Now. In more

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Speaker 3: than a decade of operations, Zara, the body has only

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Speaker 3: had to cancel a visit once before, to Rwanda. So

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Speaker 3: we're in pretty rare company there. So what's gone wrong

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Speaker 3: and what does it say about human rights in Australia.

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Speaker 3: I'll let you know in the deep dive. First, the headlines.

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Speaker 2: From the Heart First Nations organization will launch its Yes

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Speaker 2: campaign for an Indigenous Voice to Parliament in Adelaide today.

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Speaker 2: The launch will celebrate the start of the campaign to

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Speaker 2: change the constitution, which requires a referendum, which is a

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Speaker 2: public vote. The referendum is expected to take place sometime

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Speaker 2: between October and December this year.

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Speaker 3: Wages rose by three point three percent in Australia in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty two, according to the latest figures by the

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Speaker 3: Australian Bureau Statistics. Prices rose by seven point eight percent

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Speaker 3: in the same period, which means that despite the wage

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Speaker 3: increase in real terms that is accounting for prices, Australians

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Speaker 3: suffered a wage cut.

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Speaker 2: A joint report from the Climate Council and the Emergency

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Speaker 2: Leaders for Climate Action has warned of supercharged conditions that

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Speaker 2: could lead to a significant fire season later this year.

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Speaker 2: The report says that consecutive years of London Your weather

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Speaker 2: events have elevated fire risks and they advise Australian governments

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Speaker 2: to prepare for a potentially devastating fire season ahead.

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Speaker 3: And the good news and it's a good thing. I'm

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Speaker 3: talking to my boss as I read this one out.

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Speaker 3: Over ninety percent of businesses ninety percent Zara in the

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Speaker 3: UK that recently undertook a six month, four day work

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Speaker 3: week trial. We'll be moving forward with the program. The

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Speaker 3: trial involved sixty one companies spanning a range of businesses,

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Speaker 3: and they reported steady revenue figures and productivity over the

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Speaker 3: trial period despite the reduced hours in the office. Interesting.

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Speaker 3: Do you think that's interesting?

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Speaker 2: I think it's taken to point taken. So today we're

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Speaker 2: talking about the UN's torture investigation body, and the reason

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Speaker 2: we're talking about them is because they've canceled an Australian

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Speaker 2: Visit doesn't sound good to me at face value. Can

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Speaker 2: you just start with what this body actually is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So we're talking here about the United Nations Subcommittee

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Speaker 3: on the Prevention of Torture. This is a body that

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Speaker 3: monitors any country that has signed up to It's called,

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Speaker 3: and there is a bit of a mouthful, the Optional

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Speaker 3: Protocol to the Convention against Torture and are the cruel

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Speaker 3: inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. So basically, it's a

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Speaker 3: body that is kind of looking across the world at

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Speaker 3: the standards of really the treatment of prisoners and people

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Speaker 3: who are detained in various contexts. Any countries who sign

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Speaker 3: up to this protocol agree essentially to have the un

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Speaker 3: come and conduct investigations of the facilities and to draw

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Speaker 3: findings about the state of their compliance with the things

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Speaker 3: that are in this convention. It's not binding as such,

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Speaker 3: like a lot of these international treaties, it's kind of

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Speaker 3: by agreement and participation is optional. But Australia has been

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Speaker 3: signed up to it since twenty seventeen and then fairly recently.

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Speaker 3: It is fairly recent I think this particular body. I mean,

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Speaker 3: there have been long standing commitments to human rights and

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Speaker 3: war crimes, all sorts of different things that Australia has

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Speaker 3: been bound for a while, but this is a relatively

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Speaker 3: new process. This is essentially the first visit. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's not it's not gone very well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to say not so much a

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Speaker 2: visit because they've canceled it.

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Speaker 3: Talk me through what's happened, that's right. So last year

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Speaker 3: the committee was planning its visit to carry out its

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Speaker 3: work in October, it had to suspend it because of

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Speaker 3: issues visiting facilities in two states, New South Wales and Queensland.

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Speaker 3: So it's worth explaining here that you know, it gets

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Speaker 3: a little complicated because it's the federal government that signs

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Speaker 3: up to these treaties and that's kind of leading the

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Speaker 3: process of bringing the UN in. But when it comes

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Speaker 3: to prisons and facilities, they're run by states. Yeah, so

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Speaker 3: Queensland and New South Wales both had difficulties granting access

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Speaker 3: to these UN investigators and so in October they had

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Speaker 3: to eat pause. The issue in Queensland was to do

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Speaker 3: with mental health wards, which are kind of part of

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Speaker 3: this committees purview. Queensland law basically restricted the sorts of

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Speaker 3: people who would be allowed into their mental health wards,

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Speaker 3: and you know, the UN people went on the list

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Speaker 3: and so they couldn't get in. The Queensland government is

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Speaker 3: working through passing some laws to change that. In New

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Speaker 3: South Wales it's a little bit murkier. New South Wales

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Speaker 3: has been just kind of dragging its feet and it

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Speaker 3: kind of seems that the New South Wales government has

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Speaker 3: at least made public statements that suggest it doesn't really

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Speaker 3: want UN inspectors sniffing around its prisons. So back in October,

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Speaker 3: when this visit was paused, the New South Wales Corrections

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Speaker 3: Minister Jeff Lee said in a radio interview that you

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Speaker 3: know that their job was to keep people safe, not

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Speaker 3: to allow people just to wander through all at their leisure.

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Speaker 3: And so you know, New New South Wales has been

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Speaker 3: particularly kind of objecting to this. And when the UNSBT

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Speaker 3: the Subcommittee announced its sort of pause to the visit

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Speaker 3: in October, it gave Australia a bit of a bake.

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Speaker 3: It said, you know, this is a clear breach of

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Speaker 3: Australia's obligations that they have signed up to this protocol

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Speaker 3: and they have not let us get into the facilities

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Speaker 3: that we need to get into. And so if had

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Speaker 3: to take this what they call the drastic step of

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Speaker 3: suspending the visit, Australia appeared before this subcommittee. The federal

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Speaker 3: government did at the end of last year to kind

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Speaker 3: of explain themselves talk through these issues in New South

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Speaker 3: Wales and Queensland. The federal government has been sort of

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Speaker 3: speaking in public about how it hoped this could be resolved,

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Speaker 3: but it's now clear that it hasn't. So what's happened

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Speaker 3: in the last few days is that the subcommittee said

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Speaker 3: we're going to have to cancel our visit altogether because

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Speaker 3: the issues in these two jurisdictions can't be resolved. So

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Speaker 3: the Queensland one is in the process of being resolved.

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Speaker 3: The law hasn't passed yet, they haven't quite got there,

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Speaker 3: but there's still really kind of no clarity about what's

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Speaker 3: happening with New South Wales. We were in touch with

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Speaker 3: New South Wales this week and a spokesperson from the

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Speaker 3: Department of Corrections and Justice told us they had some

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Speaker 3: funding and security issues that were unresolved with the federal government,

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Speaker 3: generally some quiet, vague language. The federal government's been unable

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Speaker 3: to clarify exactly what the issue is in New South

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Speaker 3: Wales and why it can't be resolved, but certainly it's

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Speaker 3: reached the point now where this un body has said, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, we can't access all the facilities that we need,

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Speaker 3: we're going to cancel this visit.

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Speaker 2: It sounds what i'd label us fairly dramatic to have

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Speaker 2: a un body unable to visit Australia due to an

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Speaker 2: inability to get into prisons. Is it unprecedented or is

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Speaker 2: it something that happens fairly often.

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Speaker 3: What's the context is it is nearly unprecedented. So this

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Speaker 3: is only the second time that this subcommittee has had

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Speaker 3: to cancel a visit to a country. The other time

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Speaker 3: was Rwander in twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen. So we are really,

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Speaker 3: you know, in pretty small company when it comes to

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Speaker 3: not complying. It's a pretty extraordinary step to have been taken.

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Speaker 3: It's obviously a really bad look for it's going to say,

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Speaker 3: it's embarrassing exactly. And so a spokesperson for Mark Dreyfus,

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Speaker 3: the federal Attorney General, told us that the government deeply

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Speaker 3: regrets the decision and you use quite pointed language, said

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Speaker 3: that successful visits were carried out in almost all jurisdictions

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Speaker 3: in Australia and is obviously quite frustrated and disappointed by

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Speaker 3: what's happened, in particular with New South Wales. There are

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Speaker 3: some in federal politics who say that's not quite good enough.

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Speaker 3: So Green's Senator David Chubridge has been very critical of this,

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Speaker 3: and he points out and this is where it gets

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Speaker 3: into kind of murky legal territory, right, But he sort

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Speaker 3: of says, well, you know, the federal government has the

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Speaker 3: constitutional power. It's the one who signs up to these

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Speaker 3: treaties and is able to enforce them. It should be

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Speaker 3: passing a law to say, states, you've got to let

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Speaker 3: these people in This is just part of the job.

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Speaker 3: Whether or not that is feasible, I guess that's a

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Speaker 3: question for constitutional lawyers. But he's certainly suggesting that, you know,

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Speaker 3: the government could have done more here to push the

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Speaker 3: states over the line, and pointing out, as I think

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Speaker 3: a lot of people are that, you know, this is

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Speaker 3: an opportunity for transparency.

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Speaker 2: Mist So it has been canceled, which means that the

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Speaker 2: federal government hasn't stepped in what happens from here.

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Speaker 3: So I guess, I mean there will still be a

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Speaker 3: report from this subcommittee, so the visits are a part

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Speaker 3: of the investigation process just inform that report they do. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but the Australian government has provided evidence and the UN

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Speaker 3: subcommittee spoken very favorably about how helpful Australia has been

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Speaker 3: in providing evidence on its prison statistics and that sort

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Speaker 3: of thing. So we will get a report. There won't

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Speaker 3: be any direct sort of consequences apart from I guess

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Speaker 3: a bit of a slap on the wrist and a

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Speaker 3: bit of embarrassment for Australia. Again, these things are kind

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Speaker 3: of optional and participatory and there's not really any mechanism

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Speaker 3: to do that. Yeah, you know there will be a report,

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Speaker 3: and I think it's fair to say that, you know,

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Speaker 3: with or without the visits, we kind of know pretty

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Speaker 3: much what this report is going to say, and the

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Speaker 3: subcommittee's been pretty clear. The two big things that it's

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Speaker 3: really concerned about in Australia probably ones which will not

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Speaker 3: surprise many people. They are the manditary detension of refugees

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Speaker 3: and asylum seekers and the overrepresentation of First Nations people

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Speaker 3: in Australia's prisons. So you know, on the first one,

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Speaker 3: they have broad reaching concerns about the way that Australia

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Speaker 3: has used mandatory and indefinite detention of a certain category

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Speaker 3: of asylum seekers and refugees who come by boat, the

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Speaker 3: use of offshore facilities. There have also been a lot

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Speaker 3: of reports about the treatment of detainees at the hands

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Speaker 3: of government contractors or operating these centers, and a number

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Speaker 3: of issues that are of concern there. And then when

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Speaker 3: it comes to First Nations incarceration, that's a statistic that

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Speaker 3: we hear a lot about and that we're very conscious of.

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Speaker 3: And the key stat there is that First Nations people

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Speaker 3: make up three percent of the Australian population, but thirty

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Speaker 3: one percent of the prison population, and that half of

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Speaker 3: all children in Australian prisons are First nation's children. So

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Speaker 3: obviously something we know. There's a significant and deeply entrenched

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Speaker 3: issue there, and that's something that has not escaped the

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Speaker 3: notice of this UN body and is likely to feature

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Speaker 3: critically in the report that does come on Australia.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back right after this tom It sounds like

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Speaker 2: the UN subcommittee is going to publish a report that

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Speaker 2: will include certain criticisms, ones that you've already identified. What

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Speaker 2: would you say to a listener that wonders why it's

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Speaker 2: important that the trips were canceled, that the inspections were

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Speaker 2: canceled if we already know what's happening in this report, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, obviously, apart from the fact that it is

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Speaker 3: a poor reflection on Australia and its own regard here

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Speaker 3: at home for human rights in prisons, I think that

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Speaker 3: I would say this comes at a time when human

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Speaker 3: rights around the world and the international human rights framework

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Speaker 3: are under threat. As often comes up when we deal

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Speaker 3: with these international stories, we're reminded that things like you know,

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Speaker 3: international agreements on human rights, they are optional, they are voluntary.

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Speaker 3: At the end of the day. The UN doesn't have

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Speaker 3: the power to force countries to do anything. And to

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Speaker 3: the extent that the global system has been able to

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Speaker 3: advocate and push countries for human rights, it has relied

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Speaker 3: on cooperation, and it has relied on the leadership of

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Speaker 3: kind of leaders in the human rights community, and it

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Speaker 3: has particularly been I mean, the UN Human Rights Framework

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Speaker 3: is one that's really grounded in Western and American led

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Speaker 3: conceptions of human rights, and it's something that the US

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Speaker 3: and it's allies like Australia have seen themselves as the

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Speaker 3: leaders in pushing that. But right now around the world

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Speaker 3: there is a real fight against that kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: So China in particular has been doing a lot wherever

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Speaker 3: it can in international human rights discussions, has been pushing

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Speaker 3: what's called Shijing Ping thought on international affairs, which is

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Speaker 3: the country should be left to their own devices, and

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Speaker 3: that sure human rights are important, but their relative and

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Speaker 3: each country should be able to make up their own

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Speaker 3: mind and basically stay out of by the country's business.

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Speaker 3: That kind of thinking, which obviously has implications for human

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Speaker 3: rights violations that are leveled against the Chinese government. There's

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Speaker 3: an obvious thing there, and if a country like Australia.

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Speaker 3: I mean there's the issue of the visits canceled, but

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Speaker 3: there's also the issue of the you know, the asylum

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Speaker 3: seekers and the First Nations incarceration and the issues that

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Speaker 3: are going to come up in this report. Those things

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Speaker 3: make it really difficult for Australia to advocate for human

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Speaker 3: rights across the world. I mean, China do point to

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Speaker 3: things like this, They say, well, Australia, how can you

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Speaker 3: lecture us on human rights when you know this is

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Speaker 3: happening in your own house? And I think that in

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Speaker 3: a story like this, that's a pretty difficult question for

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Speaker 3: us to answer.

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Speaker 2: Tom, thanks for joining us, Thanks Sarah, thanks for joining

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Speaker 2: us on the Daily Ours. If you learned something from

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Speaker 2: today's episode, don't forget to hit subscribe, so there's a

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Speaker 2: TVA episode waiting for you every weekday morning. We'll be

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Speaker 2: back again tomorrow morning, but until then, have a brilliant day.