1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,200 Speaker 1: Jersey and Amanda jam nation Well. 2 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 2: Last week Green's spokesperson for Justice, Sue Higginson, introduced a 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 2: motion calling on Attorney General Michael Daily to pardon Kathleen Folbig. 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 2: Yesterday it was done. The fifty five year old who 5 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 2: was jailed for two decades for the murder of her 6 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 2: four children walked free after there was evidence of reasonable 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 2: possibility that three of those children died of natural causes. 8 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 2: An extraordinary day for science, an extraordinary day for justice. 9 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 2: Sue Higginson joins us. 10 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 3: Now, Hello, Sue, good morning. 11 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 2: How did you first get involved in this case? How 12 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 2: did you become a champion here? 13 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,599 Speaker 3: Look I'm not a champion, but oh yes, I think 14 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 3: you are. No. 15 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 4: I got involved quite recently, to be frank h Like, 16 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 4: I heard about this like every other Australian over the years. 17 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 4: But I got involved at the level of detail of 18 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 4: which I know now only a couple of months ago. 19 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 3: It was actually just after the election when I became 20 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 3: the portfolio holder for the Greens for Justice. 21 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 4: I looked at the inquiry, I looked at the evidence. 22 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 4: I read the thousands of pages of this inquiry. The 23 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 4: former inquiry went back to media articles and I couldn't 24 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 4: believe that we were sitting all of us on top 25 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 4: of all of that. Notwithstanding there was clear evidence now 26 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,680 Speaker 4: of reasonable doubt, and there was a woman still languishing 27 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 4: in a prison, and nobody other than her champions, nobody 28 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 4: in the position of power, were actually doing the right thing. 29 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 3: And that's when I contacted the Attorney General. 30 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 4: I made pleas to him directly. I wrote letters to him, 31 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 4: I wrote letters to the Premiere. I contacted the Premier's 32 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 4: chief of staff, and then I put a motion and 33 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 4: noticed of motion to the Parliament last week. 34 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: And this genetic come to G one one four, our gene. 35 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 5: That was pretty much discovered in twenty twenty one as 36 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 5: far as a contributing factor. 37 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 4: Look, actually, the more I've looked, the more I realize 38 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 4: it really is. You know, those medical scientific experts who 39 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 4: were speaking publicly back then in twenty twenty one. I 40 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 4: think there was even an article of one of the 41 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 4: experts at A and U saying we've found the cause 42 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:24,399 Speaker 4: of death of two of Kathleen Folbiggs's babies. 43 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 3: All the way back. 44 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 4: Then, as you rightly point out, that should have been 45 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 4: more than an alarm bell to us that as lawyers 46 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 4: I mean that's. 47 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 3: The other thing. 48 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 4: Look, I have the advantage of having a law background. 49 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 4: I've been a practically lawyer for decades. But as soon 50 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 4: as I started putting these pieces together, that's when I realized, oh, no, 51 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 4: we're holding somebody in prison wrongfully. 52 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 3: And let's remember, our entire criminal. 53 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 4: Justice system is based on the very foundation that nobody 54 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,679 Speaker 4: should have their liberty or freedom taken and less they're 55 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 4: charged and convicted beyond a reasonable doubt. 56 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 2: Its extraordinary day yesterday to see Kathleen released to the 57 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,079 Speaker 2: home of her great friend and another wonderful champion, Tracy. 58 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 2: Tracy Chapman. Have you spoken to either of them. 59 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 4: I've spoken to Kathleen's lawyer. I've left the women. I'll 60 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 4: catch up with them today. But I mean last night, 61 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 4: when I was getting messages that you know, cups of tea, pizzas, pajamas, hugs, tears, laugh. 62 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 3: I just yeah, I mean, I think. 63 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 4: We were all in joyous amounts of tears with the 64 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 4: whole scenario. 65 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 3: It's hard to night. Kids they were like young. 66 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 4: It felt like they were you know, it felt like 67 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 4: there was young girls at the party. 68 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 3: That's how it felt from where I was. 69 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: Oh, it's hard to imagine though, what the last twenty 70 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 2: years have been like that there's Kathleen mourning her children, 71 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 2: confused by why they've passed away, knowing she wasn't responsible 72 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 2: in solitary can finement for six years. It's hard to 73 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 2: not have your heart bleed for her. 74 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 4: I don't think any of us can really really imagine 75 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 4: or contemplate. I think that, you know, a lot of 76 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 4: us try to put our feet in those shoes and really. 77 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 3: Have a go. 78 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 4: But you know, and then you go and make your 79 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 4: own cup of tea, or then you go and walk 80 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 4: outside into the sunshine, or then you go and pick 81 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 4: up your own book, or you jump in your own bed, 82 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 4: you know. I mean that's what on Saturday morning, when 83 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 4: I wasn't aware, you know, we'd had the notice of 84 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 4: motion debate. The Attorney General and the current government seem 85 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 4: to have bunkered down on their position. 86 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 3: No, we're going to wait. We're gonna wait. We're going 87 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 3: to wait for the. 88 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 4: Final writing of the former Chief Justice of New South 89 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 4: Wales his findings in writing We're going to wait. On 90 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 4: Saturday morning, I remember just waking up in my own 91 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 4: bed and feeling these waves of absolute fury and frustration 92 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 4: and despair and sadness. And yet this morning I woke 93 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 4: up differently. For the it felt very different. 94 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: And it's going to take some time for Kathleen. She 95 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: was branded Australia's worst serial killer in a family actually 96 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: for all those years. 97 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 5: It's going to take a long time for people, the 98 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 5: public to come to the realization that she is indeed innocent. 99 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 4: Look what I mean, really, we've got to take a long, 100 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 4: hard look at you know, what did happen, how that happened. 101 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 3: There's lessons for all of us in this. You know, 102 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:29,919 Speaker 3: she was called a monster. As you say, I mean this. 103 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 4: I've compared this to the Lindy Chamberlain case and it 104 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 4: is it is. 105 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 3: In fact, in many. 106 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 4: Ways, this case is far worse and we did far 107 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 4: more deeper and greater, longer term wrongs. We've got to 108 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 4: remember there was never any actual evidence whatsoever around the 109 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 4: murder or the manslaughter or the harm of those children. 110 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 4: It was Kathleen's conviction was one hundred percent based on tendency, 111 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 4: coincidental evidence, and legal theories that have long been discredited. 112 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 3: And that we now know we're very. 113 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:10,359 Speaker 4: Gendered, anti sort of mother type of legal theories. You know, 114 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 4: one child dying, maybe sudden infant death syndrome. To goodness, gracious, 115 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 4: three or four, you've got a murderous mother that wasn't 116 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 4: coping on your hands. 117 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 3: That's all been discredited for a long time now. 118 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 2: And the diary entries to what new mother isn't having 119 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 2: a terrible time and saying, I wish that's. 120 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 5: And also you look at her her history of a 121 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 5: father murders her mother. You know, she's put into foster 122 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 5: hoims like her whole life, you see, and then. 123 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 2: You wonder, you know, no, wonder she doesn't. She didn't 124 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 2: respond emotionally same as Lindy in the way that we 125 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 2: expected her to, and we punished her for that. 126 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 3: Too, exactly. 127 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 4: I mean, this is not the perfect mother, not the 128 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 4: ex at least you know now and as we heard 129 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 4: in the inquiry with the psychological and psychiatric expert evidence, 130 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:00,799 Speaker 4: now at least we have much deeper understanding around mothers. 131 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 3: None of us have perfect mothers. 132 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 4: Were not those polar Kodak sandwich making perfect women. 133 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 3: Are we We're mothers? You know? 134 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 4: So yeah, what a fantastic day to day and Kathleen 135 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 4: is free, and we do we need to look at 136 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 4: our legal processes. 137 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 3: We need to look. It was very difficult. 138 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 4: For Kathleen to get to this point and her legal team, 139 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 4: I mean, my goodness, Rannie Rego, a solicitor who has 140 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 4: worked for years fully pro bono, around the clock with 141 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 4: lawyers telling her, oh, what are you doing. 142 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 3: You're wasting your time, this will never come to pass. 143 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 4: And tonight, you know, last night they were united in 144 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 4: freedom together. 145 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 3: That's great, brilliant. 146 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: So thank you for joining us this morning. Si Higgins 147 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: and Greens MP. 148 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 2: Good work, thank you, Sue 149 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 4: My pleasure, and good work all those people and champions 150 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 4: out there.