Speaker 1: How I work is having a little break over the
Speaker 1: festive season, so I've picked a handful of my absolute
Speaker 1: favorite episodes from the last eighteen months to play for
Speaker 1: you in this best of series. I hope you enjoy,
Speaker 1: and I'll be back with new episodes twice weekly from
Speaker 1: January twenty eight. When I say workplace culture, one company
Speaker 1: that probably comes to mind for almost everyone is Google.
Speaker 1: Whether it's the sprawling open plan officers that were all
Speaker 1: the rage for tech companies in the twenty tens, the
Speaker 1: free gourmet meals for staff, or their relentless pursuit of innovation.
Speaker 1: Google's been on a mission to acquire and retain the
Speaker 1: world's top talent for a very long time now. So
Speaker 1: when Mel's Silver, who's Google's managing director in Australia and
Speaker 1: New Zealand, tells you how to improve your company's culture,
Speaker 1: you'd know that she's probably onto something. Mel's been with
Speaker 1: Google for sixteen years now, and she's worked with countless
Speaker 1: incredible mentors and mentees along the way. So what are
Speaker 1: the most important lessons Mel has learned from her time
Speaker 1: at Google? How does she use her leadership expertise not
Speaker 1: only in her work life but also in her family life,
Speaker 1: and how does she structure what she calls her thinking days.
Speaker 1: My name is doctor Amanthea Immer. I'm an organizational psychologist
Speaker 1: and the founder of Behavioral Science Consultancy Inventium, and this
Speaker 1: is how I work a show about how to help
Speaker 1: you do your best work? Now something that you do
Speaker 1: our thinking days, which I find very interesting. Can you
Speaker 1: tell me what is the thinking day?
Speaker 2: So a thinking day is one day every six weeks,
Speaker 2: very much enabled by the wonderful powers of my executive assistant,
Speaker 2: where I just take myself out of the game, get
Speaker 2: off the day flaw, get onto the balcony, whatever the
Speaker 2: sort of leadership be term you want to use, and
Speaker 2: I carve it up into sort of three sections so
Speaker 2: that I can get into serious flow. Like the origin
Speaker 2: story of the thinking day for me was I went
Speaker 2: to this course and it was probably about a year
Speaker 2: less than a year into taking the job back in Australia,
Speaker 2: and I just realized I was like a slave to
Speaker 2: my diary, like people were putting stuff in, people were
Speaker 2: telling me what I should be thinking about, and I
Speaker 2: knew that there was so much I wanted to think about,
Speaker 2: but I just couldn't find the time, and I went
Speaker 2: to this course that was all about sustaining high performance
Speaker 2: for females within Google, and we got a kind of
Speaker 2: deep dive into this concept of flow, like getting yourself,
Speaker 2: putting the phone down, turning it around, giving yourself no distractions,
Speaker 2: and giving yourself time to think about it. And I
Speaker 2: just thought, if I don't create some sort of intervention here,
Speaker 2: it's never going to happen. I'm never going to get
Speaker 2: an hour and a half free just by chance. And
Speaker 2: so I first started out by carving out time in
Speaker 2: the morning two days a week, and it just wasn't
Speaker 2: working for me. Why Why is that? I'm a working
Speaker 2: mom and like by the time I get to the
Speaker 2: office some days, like I've run a marathon, you know,
Speaker 2: like I've dropped two kids off at school, I've forgotten
Speaker 2: to order lunch orders, I've got phone call, you know.
Speaker 2: So it's just you're not in good flow state. And
Speaker 2: so I sat down with my assistant and I said,
Speaker 2: how do you think we can make this work? And
Speaker 2: she said, We're just going to give you a date
Speaker 2: every six weeks. And so it's just there, it's a block,
Speaker 2: it's unbookable. But the key to it is the prep right.
Speaker 2: The key to it is getting the three topics that
Speaker 2: I want to think deeply about, at least a straw
Speaker 2: man of those, and some questions, because if I need
Speaker 2: data or inputs, I want it beforehand. And usually the
Speaker 2: output of them is an incredible mind map about thirty
Speaker 2: five new questions to go and talk to different people about,
Speaker 2: or in the really great cases, scoping doc of some
Speaker 2: stuff that we need to do and some deliverables that
Speaker 2: we should probably be putting out into the world. So
Speaker 2: I just I don't know what I do without them now,
Speaker 2: to be honest, they are a game changer for me.
Speaker 1: What's an example of a challenge that you bring to
Speaker 1: a thinking day?
Speaker 2: So really good topical one most recently was, you know,
Speaker 2: I think the world is going through, especially working people,
Speaker 2: a huge shift right now. Google's always had this wonderful culture,
Speaker 2: and it's known for great food and great officers, and
Speaker 2: you know, there's a whole bunch of people who've been
Speaker 2: through three and a half years of you know, just
Speaker 2: NonStop kind of stress and resilience, and you know, there's
Speaker 2: macro uncertainty out there, and I just kind of think,
Speaker 2: I thought to myself, do we have programs right now
Speaker 2: that are fit for purpose in terms of what kind
Speaker 2: of culture and capability that we are trying to build
Speaker 2: in our organization. Is it still fit for purpose? Do
Speaker 2: we need a bit of a course correction? And I
Speaker 2: knew we had a leadership off site coming out up,
Speaker 2: and so I just wanted us to be really intentional
Speaker 2: about the questions that we were going to ask of
Speaker 2: each other and the sort of strategic imperatives that we
Speaker 2: wanted to deliver on. So I ended up creating a
Speaker 2: bit of a table which was like, what was it
Speaker 2: like before, what is it like now, how do we
Speaker 2: think Googlers feel about it? And what's the strategic imperative
Speaker 2: that comes off the back of that, And it just
Speaker 2: ended up being a wonderful discussion guide for our off site.
Speaker 2: So things like that, which again you never really carve
Speaker 2: out time to think about if you just go through
Speaker 2: the motions of rocking up to the meetings that people
Speaker 2: want to have.
Speaker 1: So how then do you prepare for your thinking days?
Speaker 1: What does that process look like?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's generally three really high level questions and they
Speaker 2: will come up over the course of six week. So
Speaker 2: there's usually like a page at the back of the
Speaker 2: notebook where it's like thinking day kind of ideas, and
Speaker 2: then the week before I'll distill it down and kind
Speaker 2: of think about the stuff that I really want to
Speaker 2: focus on, choose the three and then do the kind
Speaker 2: of gathering that I need for that. Sometimes on a
Speaker 2: thinking day as well, I'll carve out some of that
Speaker 2: time to have a session with my coach. And that's
Speaker 2: also great because I come out of those really energized.
Speaker 2: It's great prep for a mind map.
Speaker 1: Now. I know when we spoke before this interview, you
Speaker 1: were talking about how Barred, which is Google's version of
Speaker 1: chat GPT, was also quite helpful in helping you prep
Speaker 1: for these days. I want to take a step back
Speaker 1: first because and I guess for those that haven't tried
Speaker 1: bad and I think it's still in beta mode.
Speaker 2: Is that right? Join in Australia on a waiting list
Speaker 2: and you can get access now. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now, I've had a few people from go on the
Speaker 1: show over the years, and one of my favorites was
Speaker 1: Laura may Martin.
Speaker 2: She's great. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So she's Google's executive productivity advisor and helped top execs
Speaker 1: be more productive. And I've gotten some great tips from
Speaker 1: her about Google Calendar and Gmail. I know that you
Speaker 1: think quite deeply along with your executive assistant around how
Speaker 1: you use Google Calendar. Can you tell me how you
Speaker 1: think about g cal and I guess you also think
Speaker 1: about it quite strategically in terms of looking back over it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think the way I work with my
Speaker 2: assistant is so important. Here she color codes my diary,
Speaker 2: which serves a whole bunch of purposes, some very strategic
Speaker 2: and some very practical, like being able to look at
Speaker 2: your calendar in the morning and know if you have
Speaker 2: something external will actually impact what you wear that day.
Speaker 2: So that's just a quick glance in the morning, is
Speaker 2: there any blue right need the good sneakers today? But
Speaker 2: what it also enables is this kind of tagging of
Speaker 2: the event, so that at the end of a quarter
Speaker 2: we can go back and say, right, She says to me,
Speaker 2: mel this is where you spent your time this quarter,
Speaker 2: and is that right? Does that feel right in terms
Speaker 2: of your priorities? And so for me, it's things like
Speaker 2: external relationships, one on ones with team members, what kind
Speaker 2: of topics we're talking about, And so it's just a
Speaker 2: really good gauge of whether things are going to plan
Speaker 2: or not. But what sits behind that is this being
Speaker 2: intentional about your time, right. And I've said this so
Speaker 2: many times I feel like a bit of a broken record,
Speaker 2: but I don't want to be the busiest person. I
Speaker 2: don't want to have the busiest calendar that's the most packed.
Speaker 2: What I want to be is the most impactful person.
Speaker 2: And if you don't measure these things, then you can't
Speaker 2: manage them. And so the color coding for us is
Speaker 2: just a great tool. And even with things like this
Speaker 2: is for the kids, I need to go. I need
Speaker 2: to be there for this particular thing, so I know
Speaker 2: where that is, and she knows where that is, and
Speaker 2: she knows that it's a not bookable over type thing.
Speaker 2: So it's just a really good I don't know, it
Speaker 2: just speeds things up.
Speaker 1: I guess, what are the different colors that you like?
Speaker 1: The different categories of work that have their own color.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So there's internal events, there's like ads, business type stuff,
Speaker 2: there's broader cross functional all of Google type stuff. Internal
Speaker 2: external so whether it's with a partner or not. There's kids.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's I think there's about nine or ten
Speaker 2: different colors that we have going on we've used all
Speaker 2: the colors. I know, we've maxed out colors. And then
Speaker 2: there's actually one for like do not schedule, which is
Speaker 2: thinking time right or work time that she knows that
Speaker 2: I've got to, you know, I need to spend some
Speaker 2: time doing something, preparing for a meeting or whatever it
Speaker 2: might be.
Speaker 1: How do you decide what percentage of time is the
Speaker 1: right amount to be dedicating to those different broadategories of work?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's less about this needs to be fifty
Speaker 2: percent of my time and more about hang on, it
Speaker 2: should definitely be more than ten, you know, Like it's
Speaker 2: more about tweaking as opposed to sort of setting guidelines
Speaker 2: and making sure we stick to them. But it's just
Speaker 2: more of a lead indicator of our things on track
Speaker 2: or not, as opposed to a quota, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean.
Speaker 1: I know. Something else that you do is you've only
Speaker 1: got one calendar as opposed to several, which I found
Speaker 1: interesting because in my own life, I've got three calendars.
Speaker 1: I've got my work calendar, I've got my personal calendar,
Speaker 1: which is also my daughter's commitments as well, and then
Speaker 1: I've got to shared calendar with my partner, and it
Speaker 1: can be a bit messy. So tell me about only
Speaker 1: having one calendar.
Speaker 2: Well, I only have one life, and you know, it's
Speaker 2: just about shortcuts really for me. I mean, I do
Speaker 2: think that philosophically, I bring my whole self to work,
Speaker 2: and you know, at home, everyone needs to understand that
Speaker 2: mum's mum works, that my partner understands that I work.
Speaker 2: But having one view of everything is just convenient to me,
Speaker 2: Like I will double book on myself if I have
Speaker 2: one calendar here and one calendar there. So I think
Speaker 2: the beauty of it is if someone does send me
Speaker 2: an invite to a personal Gmail thing, I can actually
Speaker 2: see it in that one space. But for me, it's
Speaker 2: just a speed of what's going on. You know, birthday
Speaker 2: parties are in their swimming lessons, are in their netballs
Speaker 2: in there. You know, it's just this is my whole being.
Speaker 1: Now, I want to talk about advice because you've been
Speaker 1: at Google for sixteen years.
Speaker 2: I was five when I started.
Speaker 1: I've been running inventing for sixteen years, and I too
Speaker 1: was five when I sonted that business. Very yeah, I
Speaker 1: want to know what's the best advice you've received from
Speaker 1: fellow Googlers over that period of time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, radical candor is something that I
Speaker 2: am a big fan of and the best.
Speaker 1: And for those that haven't heard of the term radical candor,
Speaker 1: it has, I guess become popularized over the years. Can
Speaker 1: you define what it is?
Speaker 2: So it's just being brutally honest with people and being
Speaker 2: really direct. I's actually written a book written by googleer
Speaker 2: Kim Scott. I think her name was a Is. She's
Speaker 2: still with us, but you know, she's got this really
Speaker 2: incredible model of you know, are you just working in
Speaker 2: ruinous empathy? Are you trying to be too nice? And
Speaker 2: you know, all these different models and I think this
Speaker 2: concept of being really direct with someone. The example she
Speaker 2: gives is, you know, I was sitting in a meeting
Speaker 2: and my boss after the meeting said to me, you know,
Speaker 2: when you say too much, it makes you sound really dumb,
Speaker 2: which like what a sting, right, But I just think
Speaker 2: I am the sort of person who responds best to
Speaker 2: hearing it right before, right between the eyeballs, you know.
Speaker 2: And I had a great boss and he said to me,
Speaker 2: you know, you've got this incredible fire in the belly.
Speaker 2: You're really commercial. People follow you, but you've really got
Speaker 2: to watch your p's and q's, like you've got to
Speaker 2: know when is the right time. You really have to
Speaker 2: develop that skill. And it was just such a powerful
Speaker 2: piece of feedback to me because I think I had,
Speaker 2: you know, I'd grown up in a time where I
Speaker 2: was I'd grown up in banking. I'd grown up in
Speaker 2: environments where that kind of hate to say it, but
Speaker 2: it's like boys' locker room type language and stuff was
Speaker 2: just the norm, and you almost felt like you had
Speaker 2: to be that way. I think I was that way anyway,
Speaker 2: So don't get me wrong, but you there was this
Speaker 2: kind of acceptance of that, and he just said to me,
Speaker 2: you know, you will have much more cut through when
Speaker 2: you know when and how to play those levers. And
Speaker 2: it just enabled me to go away and think about
Speaker 2: it and put it into practice without losing who I
Speaker 2: was as a person, still being really direct and still
Speaker 2: being really you know, I bring levity to situations. That's
Speaker 2: one of my superpowers. It doesn't mean being serious and
Speaker 2: losing my personality. It means just knowing when to play
Speaker 2: the card right.
Speaker 1: I can imagine hearing feedback like that could feel like
Speaker 1: it's an attack on you and your personality. How do
Speaker 1: you work through applying the feedback as opposed to I
Speaker 1: don't know, getting really defensive and going no, no, that's
Speaker 1: a part of me. You're asking me to fundamentally change.
Speaker 2: So do you know why I think I remember that
Speaker 2: particular piece of feedback so well is because he coupled
Speaker 2: it with my strength, and he said, you have this
Speaker 2: fire in your belly. I love it. You have this
Speaker 2: commercial acumen. I love it. People will follow you. Don't
Speaker 2: stuff it up like it's and so it kind of
Speaker 2: appreciated who I was, and it like it really affirmed
Speaker 2: all of the good things about my personality in the
Speaker 2: same time as him coming across as I'm giving you
Speaker 2: this as a gift. Right, it's always going to sting
Speaker 2: to hear feedback that, even if it's just constructive stuff
Speaker 2: about the way you run a meeting, or if it's
Speaker 2: got nothing to do with your personality, good feedback I
Speaker 2: think has to sting. Otherwise it's not going to be
Speaker 2: heard or felt right, Otherwise, I think you're in realinos
Speaker 2: empathy mode. But you know, I think over the years,
Speaker 2: you realize that you're only getting that feedback because someone
Speaker 2: really cares about your development. Right if you go through
Speaker 2: a relationship with a boss or with an employee, and
Speaker 2: all you ever say to them is you're great, don't
Speaker 2: worry about it. That there's a verse of that that's like, well,
Speaker 2: I don't really care, you know, keep doing what you're doing.
Speaker 2: You lean in when you really care about someone.
Speaker 1: Now you have a coach, and I think it's really
Speaker 1: hard finding a good I mean it's hard finding those
Speaker 1: good kind of like support people in your life, whether
Speaker 1: it's a therapist, a psychologist, a coach. How did you
Speaker 1: find your coach?
Speaker 2: Well, Google actually put me in touch with my coach,
Speaker 2: and it started out as quite a specific purpose. So
Speaker 2: I had just taken on a new role, like an
Speaker 2: expanded role, and the leadership team, the leadership development team,
Speaker 2: came and said, hey, you know you're about to do
Speaker 2: this thing. Would you like to have a coach for
Speaker 2: a couple of sessions just to kind of bang some
Speaker 2: stuff out? And I was like, yeah, sure, great, and
Speaker 2: we just hit it off. And so I think at
Speaker 2: the end of every ten sessions, I would go begging
Speaker 2: and pleading to please, can I keep the coach? And
Speaker 2: they'd be like yeah, yeah, yeah, And then you know,
Speaker 2: I think it's only ten years now that I've had
Speaker 2: the same coach and he's incredible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell me what are some of the most important
Speaker 1: things that he's taught you and helped you with?
Speaker 2: Ah, well, geez, again, this is a whole other podcast.
Speaker 2: The most impactful one, like the one that has changed
Speaker 2: me the most, is coming to groups with that in
Speaker 2: a critic. Right, So I have a tendency to be
Speaker 2: quite catastrophic, and I have a tendency to make it
Speaker 2: all my fault in my mind, and he has just
Speaker 2: been so instrumental in helping me come to terms with that,
Speaker 2: but not not by ignoring it, by accepting that that's
Speaker 2: a huge part of who I am, being proud of
Speaker 2: why that is there, and then just being great at
Speaker 2: consciously pushing it to the back. So I'll give you
Speaker 2: an example. You know, something goes wrong, my brain goes,
Speaker 2: this is all.
Speaker 1: Your fault, Like, how did you get the why did you.
Speaker 2: Found I'm now able to go this is what you
Speaker 2: do all the time. The reason why you do that
Speaker 2: is because you've got really high standards and you don't
Speaker 2: ever want to be the person who has let the
Speaker 2: team down. But here the voice know that it's probably
Speaker 2: going to be ten times more than the reality of
Speaker 2: the situation. Put it back, turn the volume down on
Speaker 2: that voice. Go So he gave me like a bus visual,
Speaker 2: Like you're driving the bus and there's someone who's like
Speaker 2: screaming in your ear, just send them to the back
Speaker 2: of the bus. That has completely changed me, completely changed
Speaker 2: who I am and the way I think about myself
Speaker 2: and the way I judge myself. Made me so much
Speaker 2: more confident in myself because I'm actually proud now that
Speaker 2: I have that little voice. I'm proud that it keeps
Speaker 2: me grounded, like it keeps me hungry, and it pushes me,
Speaker 2: but it can also bring me all the way down.
Speaker 2: If I don't watch.
Speaker 1: It, we will be back with Melson talking about how
Speaker 1: she approaches people development in a really simple but really
Speaker 1: impactful way. If you're looking for more tips to improve
Speaker 1: the way you work can live. I write a short
Speaker 1: weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered that have helped
Speaker 1: me personally. You can sign up for that at Amantha
Speaker 1: dot com. That's Amantha dot com. Now, I know that
Speaker 1: you're really passionate about people development and you have office hours, Yesordo,
Speaker 1: can you tell me about that so office hours is
Speaker 1: a couple of half hour slots every week that anyone
Speaker 1: can just book and come in. I actually just came
Speaker 1: off the back of some the Melbourne office and look, ninety.
Speaker 2: Percent of the time people are having a career conversation.
Speaker 2: So they sometimes they'll bring in a performance development plan,
Speaker 2: or they'll bring in their kind of goals and we'll
Speaker 2: chat them through, or they'll have a job that they're
Speaker 2: thinking about that they want to kind of bash out
Speaker 2: so people can use them for whatever they want. But
Speaker 2: most of the time it is about people development. I mean,
Speaker 2: I think you know, I have been at Google for
Speaker 2: a long time and I've had sort of two stints
Speaker 2: in the Australia team, and you know, we've done incredible things,
Speaker 2: and we've built wonderful products, and we've helped advertisers all
Speaker 2: around the country. But man, the dopamine hits when you
Speaker 2: see someone who you hired sixteen years ago become a director,
Speaker 2: or you see them in a job that's in a
Speaker 2: completely different team and they are just nailing it. I
Speaker 2: don't think there's a better dopamine hit that you get
Speaker 2: from seeing that and knowing and because we have a
Speaker 2: culture where that sort of seeking advice and helping and
Speaker 2: coaching is part of the part of it, the full circle,
Speaker 2: like people thank you for it. They come back and
Speaker 2: they or they write you a card or you know,
Speaker 2: little things like that, and you don't do it for that,
Speaker 2: but you do feel like it's just a whole new
Speaker 2: source of I don't know, inspiration and gratitude. And yeah,
Speaker 2: it's my favorite thing to do. It's one of the
Speaker 2: things that fills the cup, not grains the cup. And
Speaker 2: that's kind of you know, in terms of managing your energy,
Speaker 2: I think in senior roles, you do have to kind
Speaker 2: of go in knowing that if I just go with
Speaker 2: the flow here, my energy will be completely depleted at
Speaker 2: the end of every day. So what am I actively
Speaker 2: doing to top it up? Office hours is one of them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Now you're a parent as well. You have three
Speaker 1: kids and two ten and thirteen, I think their ages.
Speaker 1: You said that you have a weekly spreadsheet with your
Speaker 1: partner to manage everything parenting.
Speaker 2: Can you tell me what that looks like? So it's
Speaker 2: a spreadsheet with a few tabs, so you know, there
Speaker 2: was actually a new tab added last week because I
Speaker 2: was away and there was just a whole bunch of
Speaker 2: stuff that was going on. And you know, it's like
Speaker 2: military kind of level logistics when you have a teenager,
Speaker 2: a tween, and a toddler. And so for my husband
Speaker 2: having to do all three, like look after all three
Speaker 2: of them last week on his own, that was like major.
Speaker 2: So there were you know, maybe a couple of times
Speaker 2: there were ubers involved in bringing children school, but you know,
Speaker 2: there was like an early netball camp, and there was
Speaker 2: you know, tapping into the network of amazing mothers that
Speaker 2: support each other in this sort of world. You know,
Speaker 2: like so this person's picking up this child for that
Speaker 2: day and this, you know, so it was just kind
Speaker 2: of it's just a matter of putting it all on
Speaker 2: one piece of paper. You know, we're both busy people, right,
Speaker 2: so just having a go to on your phone that
Speaker 2: you can go, yep, this is what's going on today
Speaker 2: is just easier. But you know, on the other spreadsheet,
Speaker 2: there's here's the homework that this middle one needs to
Speaker 2: get done this week, and this is what we need
Speaker 2: to check at the end of every day. And you know,
Speaker 2: so look, it's just logistics, man. I mean it probably
Speaker 2: speaks to some sort of control thing that I have
Speaker 2: it feels better once you've written it down, you know,
Speaker 2: and you've got the structure and you know it's doable.
Speaker 2: Otherwise you just think it's impossible.
Speaker 1: How do you think about parenting and the time that
Speaker 1: you do spend with your kids, given like you're in
Speaker 1: a job that's demanding and that requires travel.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, I try. I just try to
Speaker 2: be as present as I can. I don't win all
Speaker 2: the time, but it's about finding those moments that matter.
Speaker 2: I think when you're you know, so I pick up
Speaker 2: my daughter from school on a certain day and that's
Speaker 2: just like not negotiable, and that's our time together. You know.
Speaker 2: I do nepple on the weekends. I mean, it's a
Speaker 2: great way just to connect with other parents, but for
Speaker 2: her to know that mum sees me there, that's really important.
Speaker 2: I drive my eldest son to school and that's really
Speaker 2: good chat time because he's at the age of he
Speaker 2: doesn't want to necessarily look you in the face all
Speaker 2: the time. But you know, that's our connection time. It's
Speaker 2: about making the time you have work. You know. I
Speaker 2: grew up in a household where my mum ran a
Speaker 2: small business. You know, our loundroom was the boardroom, it
Speaker 2: was the opper center, you know. And so I think
Speaker 2: I had a kind of good schooling in Hey, this
Speaker 2: is mum time and sometimes mum's got meetings at night.
Speaker 2: And it doesn't mean that I ever thought she was
Speaker 2: less of a mumm. So I mean, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I just I feel like there's all this kind of
Speaker 2: pressure about how mums should be and all this kind
Speaker 2: of stuff. I just want to be the mum they
Speaker 2: call when something goes wrong. That's kind of my north star.
Speaker 2: And so how do you cultivate that relationship over the
Speaker 2: course of you know, probably thirteen or fourteen years by
Speaker 2: the time they start getting into those situations being the
Speaker 2: one that they can talk to. So I don't pride
Speaker 2: myself on necessarily have we made cookies today? Yes, great,
Speaker 2: we've made cookies today. And great if you make cookies
Speaker 2: like that, if that's your thing with your kids, awesome.
Speaker 2: But for me, it's just about making sure individually they
Speaker 2: have some time with one another and knowing. I think
Speaker 2: the beauty of the smaller child is that he's given
Speaker 2: us this perspective that life changes a lot. You know,
Speaker 2: there's a big difference between eight and ten. There's a
Speaker 2: big difference between one and three. And so you know,
Speaker 2: like if we're in a crazy phase now, it'll be
Speaker 2: really different in six months time. So let's not beat
Speaker 2: ourselves up over the fact of what we can and
Speaker 2: can't do. And if I've got to travel this week,
Speaker 2: that doesn't delete every bit of parenting that we've done
Speaker 2: the week before.
Speaker 1: You know, So, what are your principles around technology and
Speaker 1: screens for your kids?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's a fascinating question because I've got
Speaker 2: three kids and they are all super different, right, and again, phases,
Speaker 2: reasons and seasons. There was definitely I've always sort of
Speaker 2: had that he's the rope, like you stuff it up,
Speaker 2: basically like I'm going to trust you. Here are the boundaries,
Speaker 2: and if you break them, then I pull back. But
Speaker 2: I guess the first principle is I don't believe that
Speaker 2: it's evil. I believe that. You know, my son when
Speaker 2: he was little, learned how to sing, you know, let
Speaker 2: it go in twenty five languages by watching YouTube. He
Speaker 2: now he is really into art, so he will sit
Speaker 2: there and watch videos about how to draw an eye.
Speaker 2: I think that's a good use of screen time. If
Speaker 2: he also then watches anime, and so I don't think
Speaker 2: it's a one size fits all. I think it's what
Speaker 2: you're doing on there. My daughter isn't a different phase
Speaker 2: in her life, and it's completely different usage, and so
Speaker 2: it requires a completely different style. And so it's almost
Speaker 2: like leadership at work, as horrible as that might sound,
Speaker 2: but there's no one size fits all. It's like what
Speaker 2: motivates you is not what motivates another person. And the
Speaker 2: things that we need to develop with you are different
Speaker 2: to the things that we need to develop with the
Speaker 2: other one. So I think it's about being a little
Speaker 2: bit more nuanced. But the reality is technology is going
Speaker 2: to be part of their world. So I want them
Speaker 2: to be the boss of their boundaries, just like I
Speaker 2: want my folks at work to be the boss of
Speaker 2: their boundaries as well.
Speaker 1: Something I've been thinking and writing a lot about this
Speaker 1: here is health, and that's the topic of the current
Speaker 1: book that I'm working on. And I'm curious, like, in
Speaker 1: amongst all the different responsibilities that you have, where does
Speaker 1: looking after both physical and mental.
Speaker 2: Health for you?
Speaker 1: How do you think about that? And where do you
Speaker 1: find time?
Speaker 2: Such a great timely question. So I actually was lucky
Speaker 2: enough yesterday to interview James Clear for an event we
Speaker 2: had here in Melbourne. And I'm a huge fan of
Speaker 2: that book. But earlier this well, actually, when I came
Speaker 2: back from matt Leedst the beginning of last year, while
Speaker 2: I was on maternity leave, I had the best sort
Speaker 2: of regime of my life. I was walking every day.
Speaker 2: I was yoguring every day, I was exercising every day.
Speaker 2: I you know, like I had time to cook really
Speaker 2: great healthy meals. Like the yoga was the mental health
Speaker 2: break as well. Everyone was at home, so I got
Speaker 2: breaks from them. You know. I was living my best life,
Speaker 2: let's just put it that way. And I came back
Speaker 2: to work and Amantha, it just all vanished. It just
Speaker 2: all slipped away. And despite the best of intentions, like, ok,
Speaker 2: I'm going to get up a five point thirty and
Speaker 2: I'm going to do yoga and I'm going to do
Speaker 2: my forget it right, And of course it takes me
Speaker 2: about six months to kind of realize that that's happening.
Speaker 2: And so I read Atomic Habits and I thought, Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm going to do this, like one percent of thing.
Speaker 2: I'm just going to try. I'm just going to master
Speaker 2: the art of showing up. And it's actually in the diary.
Speaker 2: It's the hack for me has been I bought myself
Speaker 2: a new fit bed, so I've gamer fighter. I've made
Speaker 2: it attractive and made it sort of quite obvious. When
Speaker 2: there is a half an hour break in my diary,
Speaker 2: I leave the office and I go walk twice around
Speaker 2: the block. When I spoke to you, I was walking
Speaker 2: around the block, and so that's where I'm at right now.
Speaker 2: But I've also realized that in a year's time, when
Speaker 2: the baby's a little bit older, that these things become easier, right,
Speaker 2: And so I'm just not I'm just being kind to myself,
Speaker 2: to be honest. But the identity that I'm trying to
Speaker 2: kind of manifest is I want to master the art
Speaker 2: of showing up. I want to take advantage of the
Speaker 2: moments that I have, and I just want to be
Speaker 2: the sort of person that takes time for themselves. A
Speaker 2: lot of anger that I hear from working mums is
Speaker 2: everybody takes from me, and I just I just don't
Speaker 2: want to ever kind of foster that resentment. I just
Speaker 2: I want to be even if it's five minutes, that's enough,
Speaker 2: you know, I've done, like I've dropped one of my
Speaker 2: kids off really early in the morning, just done a
Speaker 2: sneaky trip down to this cliff, sat there for five minutes.
Speaker 2: How did a quick little meditation. That's enough. That's enough
Speaker 2: right now, So it's going to be kind to myself.
Speaker 2: I love that, Mel.
Speaker 1: For people that want to connect with you, what is
Speaker 1: the best way to do that?
Speaker 2: Well, LinkedIn is wide open, baby. LinkedIn is definitely the
Speaker 2: best of place because I do keep the other socials
Speaker 2: private just because you know, I want to be able
Speaker 2: to send photos of my kids to my mum with
Speaker 2: how of being open to the whole universe to see.
Speaker 2: But yeah, for sure on LinkedIn, and it's a very
Speaker 2: busy channel. I can imagine. I can imagine.
Speaker 1: I feel like you're about to be inundated with many
Speaker 1: messages on LinkedIn. Mel, this has just been such an
Speaker 1: absolute joy. As I said, when we connected, and fratuitously
Speaker 1: we got connected by someone at Google. You've been on
Speaker 1: kind of my hit list in my mind for how
Speaker 1: I work for a while now, and I'm so glad
Speaker 1: that we could make this happen. It's just been just
Speaker 1: a joy to hear about how you think about work.
Speaker 2: Thanks, aman there's been so wonderful to be here. I
Speaker 2: hope that.
Speaker 1: You enjoyed this chat with Mel I must say she
Speaker 1: was such fun to talk to and her energy, I
Speaker 1: must say, is so contagious. If you enjoyed this episode
Speaker 1: and you know someone else who would benefit, why not
Speaker 1: share it with them? And if you're enjoying How I Work,
Speaker 1: I'd love it if you could take a few seconds
Speaker 1: to leave a review in the Apple Podcasts app or
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to this podcast from Thank you for
Speaker 1: sharing part of your day with me by listening to
Speaker 1: How I Work. If you're keen for more tips on
Speaker 1: how to work better, connect with me via LinkedIn or Instagram.
Speaker 1: I'm very easy to find. Just search for Amantha Imba.
Speaker 1: How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of
Speaker 1: the Warrenery people, part of the cool And Nation. I
Speaker 1: am so grateful for being able to work and live
Speaker 1: on this beautiful land and I want to pay my
Speaker 1: respects to elder's past, present and emerging. How I Work
Speaker 1: is produced by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios.
Speaker 2: The producer for this episode was
Speaker 1: Liam Riordan and thank you to Martin Nimba, who did
Speaker 1: the audio mix and makes everything sound better than it
Speaker 1: would have otherwise.