1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,960
Speaker 1: Well, as we know from September one, the twelve month

2
00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,680
Speaker 1: trial allowing eligible members of the public to purchase, possess, carry,

3
00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,959
Speaker 1: and use OC spray for self defense. Well, it kicks

4
00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:12,640
Speaker 1: in now. We're just one week to go before this

5
00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:15,080
Speaker 1: trial begins. We wanted to make sure that our listeners

6
00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,959
Speaker 1: knew what the process would be and any precautions really

7
00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,080
Speaker 1: that we need to be aware of before purchasing the spray.

8
00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,640
Speaker 1: Now joining us in the studio is Commander John Aiken.

9
00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:26,560
Speaker 1: Good morning to you.

10
00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,040
Speaker 2: Commander, good morning and good morning to your listeners.

11
00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,360
Speaker 1: Lovely to have you on the show. Now, Commander, tell

12
00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:35,600
Speaker 1: me first off, what requirements are in place? What do

13
00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,519
Speaker 1: we need to know before we purchase this OC spray.

14
00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,199
Speaker 2: So I think it's relatively well known now, but obviously,

15
00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,200
Speaker 2: as you said from the first September, the Northern Tertory

16
00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,720
Speaker 2: government is running a twelvemonth trial to allow eligible adults

17
00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,639
Speaker 2: to purchase carrying us OC spray for self defense purposes.

18
00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,040
Speaker 2: Only those sales are in person that declared firearms dealers,

19
00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:55,960
Speaker 2: and there's a list of those available on the public

20
00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,800
Speaker 2: facing website, available from the police website, and that requires

21
00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:03,640
Speaker 2: fa ID and that signed declaration at the point of sale.

22
00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,800
Speaker 2: Misuse remains an offence under the Weapons Control Act, So

23
00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,240
Speaker 2: they are and will remain prohibited weapons. So any misuse

24
00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:12,480
Speaker 2: would be an offense, and we'll be collecting your whole

25
00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,839
Speaker 2: bunch of data, including dealer reports and other police data,

26
00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,000
Speaker 2: using risk based monitoring, targeted audits, et cetera, and those

27
00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:20,640
Speaker 2: outcomes will inform the next steps.

28
00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:23,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. Right, So I guess in terms of because lots

29
00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:25,920
Speaker 1: of people are like, well, what happens if, you know,

30
00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,280
Speaker 1: if it gets into the wrong hands, what happens if

31
00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,240
Speaker 1: somebody uses it, you know, in a way that they're

32
00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,480
Speaker 1: not supposed to it. By the sounds of what you've

33
00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,039
Speaker 1: just said to me there, it sounds like it'll be

34
00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:38,360
Speaker 1: dealt with in the same way that anybody else miss

35
00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,039
Speaker 1: using something like a machete or I can't think of

36
00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,000
Speaker 1: any other cross bowl or something like that. It sounds

37
00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,280
Speaker 1: as it will sort of be, you know, it'll be

38
00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:49,559
Speaker 1: dealt with in a similar sort of way if you're

39
00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:50,640
Speaker 1: misusing a weapon.

40
00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so. As I said, the OC spray is

41
00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,120
Speaker 2: a prohibited weapon now and remains a prohibited weapon. What

42
00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,680
Speaker 2: this trial is doing is opening up a relatively what

43
00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,800
Speaker 2: I describe as a narrow exempt for people to access

44
00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,600
Speaker 2: it for self defense purposes only. You know, people have

45
00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:06,640
Speaker 2: asked that question. What if someone lies, were lying on

46
00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:08,920
Speaker 2: the declaration is an offense. The form will go to

47
00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,440
Speaker 2: our firearms Policy and Records units, so there's an audit trail.

48
00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,680
Speaker 2: So basically, at the point of sale, a member of

49
00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:17,359
Speaker 2: the public will come in, they'll have to show photo

50
00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,080
Speaker 2: ID to the firearms dealer. They've got to complete the

51
00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:21,720
Speaker 2: form a bit like if you were going to the

52
00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,560
Speaker 2: airport and you've got to do that declaration about what's

53
00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,320
Speaker 2: in your luggage, So similar process to that. The dealer

54
00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:28,920
Speaker 2: make sure that it's you in front of them with

55
00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,120
Speaker 2: the photo ID, you make the declaration, they witness it,

56
00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,919
Speaker 2: and what comes to the police at point of sale

57
00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:39,200
Speaker 2: is who has declared, who has purchased, what their address is,

58
00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:41,400
Speaker 2: the data birth what they have purchased. So there's quite

59
00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,560
Speaker 2: a lot of information that's coming to our firearms area

60
00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,799
Speaker 2: in pretty much real time. That information also comes back

61
00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,400
Speaker 2: to the person, so that's the evidence that they need

62
00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:51,160
Speaker 2: to show police if they're asked if they should have

63
00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,160
Speaker 2: it or not, or if they are the right person

64
00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:55,359
Speaker 2: to be carrying it, and police will have access to

65
00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:56,000
Speaker 2: that information.

66
00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,080
Speaker 1: Let's say someone goes in and purchases some OC spray

67
00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,880
Speaker 1: and they've actually in, gosh, I don't know, some kind

68
00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,880
Speaker 1: of violent criminal history where they've been involved in. I

69
00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:07,720
Speaker 1: can't think of something off the top of my head,

70
00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,919
Speaker 1: but some kind of violent scenario. Then, does if they've

71
00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,200
Speaker 1: lied on that form and they've still purchased the OC spread,

72
00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,800
Speaker 1: does some kind of alert tick over for the Northern

73
00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:19,799
Speaker 1: Territory Police or what happens next?

74
00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:22,400
Speaker 2: So I suppose a couple of things is that this

75
00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:24,200
Speaker 2: is a time limited trial, and what we're trying to

76
00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,080
Speaker 2: do is approach it from that common sense, sort of

77
00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,480
Speaker 2: sensible perspective. So the first part about that was the

78
00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,440
Speaker 2: firearms dealers are a really good, solid network that we

79
00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,200
Speaker 2: engage with on a regular basis. We picked them specifically

80
00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,120
Speaker 2: because they understand legislation, they have all the right storage requirements,

81
00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,400
Speaker 2: they're very used to asking people all the right questions

82
00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,400
Speaker 2: at point of sale. So obviously it's going it's still

83
00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:46,600
Speaker 2: an offense to supply or sell to a person that

84
00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,320
Speaker 2: you shouldn't. So if something really obvious is there, like

85
00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,600
Speaker 2: the person's photo ID doesn't match the person in front

86
00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:52,960
Speaker 2: of them, then it would be an offense for the

87
00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,160
Speaker 2: dealer to sell to that person. Now, obviously lying on

88
00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,240
Speaker 2: a declaration would be an offense. As I said, the

89
00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,200
Speaker 2: form comes to the police, So there is a trail

90
00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,400
Speaker 2: and if we were to identify that a person had

91
00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,640
Speaker 2: got it unlawfully, we can seize it and they can

92
00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:06,360
Speaker 2: be prosecuted.

93
00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:08,880
Speaker 1: Now, is there any like, are there any limits in

94
00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,800
Speaker 1: terms of the number of canisters which you can purchase?

95
00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:14,800
Speaker 2: There's not a limit to the number of canisters that

96
00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:16,560
Speaker 2: you can purchase, and part of that is to do

97
00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:18,440
Speaker 2: with the way in which your trial has come about.

98
00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:20,839
Speaker 2: But what we have limited is the amount of canisters

99
00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:22,520
Speaker 2: that you can carry in public. So it's only a

100
00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,080
Speaker 2: maximum of two canisters per person can be carried in public.

101
00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:27,480
Speaker 2: And that's a way that we've put a bit of

102
00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,280
Speaker 2: a limitation around around it in.

103
00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,640
Speaker 1: Terms of like there's also I suppose some real practical

104
00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,560
Speaker 1: questions from you know, seniors and that kind of thing.

105
00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:38,520
Speaker 1: And I don't know whether you've sort of got the

106
00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,240
Speaker 1: answer to this for us, But like with a little canister,

107
00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,839
Speaker 1: you know, if somebody does have a person trying to,

108
00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,159
Speaker 1: you know, to attack them and they spray it in

109
00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,800
Speaker 1: their face, is it going to be enough for them

110
00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:51,800
Speaker 1: to be able to get away, you know, even for

111
00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,200
Speaker 1: an elderly person who may not be as as nimble

112
00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:56,440
Speaker 1: or as fast on their feet.

113
00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:03,080
Speaker 2: So I have every police officer in certainly in the

114
00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,240
Speaker 2: Northern Territory, and I can attest to this has been

115
00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,440
Speaker 2: sprayed by purpose spray. That's the thing that happens during

116
00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,400
Speaker 2: their training, so OC spray. I worked at our training

117
00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,240
Speaker 2: college for about five years and have been involved in

118
00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,120
Speaker 2: the spraying of hundreds of recruits. I don't wear that

119
00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:17,840
Speaker 2: badge with honor, but it is a thing that has happened,

120
00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,359
Speaker 2: and have been sprayed myself, I would say probably in

121
00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,600
Speaker 2: the dozens of times. It is a very effective tool

122
00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,800
Speaker 2: to disrupt what's happening. And that's really what we're looking

123
00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:28,720
Speaker 2: at here is a tool to help people with self

124
00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,200
Speaker 2: defense purposes to really give them the ability to then

125
00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,520
Speaker 2: actually do what they need to do. I call the

126
00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,400
Speaker 2: police to come and give them some assistance. So I

127
00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:38,760
Speaker 2: would say that their response always varies depending on where

128
00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:40,400
Speaker 2: it lands and all of those kinds of things, but

129
00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:44,559
Speaker 2: it definitely works and for members of the public self

130
00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,160
Speaker 2: defense purposes to then give them an opportunity to call

131
00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:47,560
Speaker 2: for help.

132
00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,880
Speaker 1: What happens if somebody sprays it in self defense and

133
00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:53,320
Speaker 1: I don't know, like the person that you know that

134
00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,680
Speaker 1: they thought was attacking them is not actually attacking them.

135
00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,120
Speaker 1: They're just running past them or something like that, and

136
00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,240
Speaker 1: you know they sprayed at someone. Can they pretend actually

137
00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:00,960
Speaker 1: being charged.

138
00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:04,640
Speaker 2: We try to keep this as simple as possible. So

139
00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,120
Speaker 2: the self defense things that have been put into the

140
00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,960
Speaker 2: instrument for the purposes of the trial are exactly the

141
00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,000
Speaker 2: same as they exist in the Criminal Code today. So

142
00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,600
Speaker 2: you can basically use today before the first of September

143
00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,520
Speaker 2: self defense. You can obviously defend yourself and those provisions

144
00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:22,520
Speaker 2: under the Criminal Code are the same provisions that we

145
00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,480
Speaker 2: have put into the put into the OC spray trial.

146
00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:29,599
Speaker 2: So it's about, you know, self defense, defending yourself. It

147
00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,160
Speaker 2: needs to be reasonable in the circumstances, but ultimately that's

148
00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,360
Speaker 2: up to the person themselves to say as to why

149
00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,400
Speaker 2: they thought that it was reasonable. As I said, that's

150
00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:38,560
Speaker 2: absolutely the same today as it will be on the

151
00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:39,279
Speaker 2: first of September.

152
00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:41,880
Speaker 1: Now, so you know, as a police officer out there

153
00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,760
Speaker 1: working hard in our community, do you have any concerns

154
00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,200
Speaker 1: about this IC spray getting into the wrong hands.

155
00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,560
Speaker 2: I suppose you know, again, what we're trying to do

156
00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,320
Speaker 2: here is to create a relatively narrow exemption. You know,

157
00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:01,720
Speaker 2: it remains a prohibited weapon. The exemption allows you know,

158
00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:06,760
Speaker 2: Laura biding adults to access it for self defense purposes.

159
00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,360
Speaker 2: If the wrong people get their hands on it, then obviously,

160
00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:11,360
Speaker 2: as I said, it's treated as an offense and police

161
00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:13,520
Speaker 2: can then go ahead and en lay charges if they

162
00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:13,880
Speaker 2: needed to.

163
00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:16,880
Speaker 1: Well, Commander I really appreciate you joining us in the

164
00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,240
Speaker 1: studio this morning. I'm sure that, as you know, as

165
00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,920
Speaker 1: the OC spray rolls out, there may be different questions

166
00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,080
Speaker 1: that we've got, but I think that you've let our

167
00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,200
Speaker 1: listeners know most of the answers to the questions that

168
00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,840
Speaker 1: they've had over the last few weeks. So I certainly

169
00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:32,240
Speaker 1: appreciate you joining us in the studio and telling us

170
00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:33,240
Speaker 1: a little bit more about it.

171
00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,320
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, and I just encourage people to

172
00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,280
Speaker 2: continue to look at the OC spray troll website. We're

173
00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,040
Speaker 2: continuing to add more and more information, particularly as we

174
00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,960
Speaker 2: get questions coming. There's a frequently asked questions section and

175
00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:45,040
Speaker 2: we'll continue to build on that.

176
00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,440
Speaker 1: Well, Commander jhn Ak can thank you so much for

177
00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:48,640
Speaker 1: your time this morning. Thanks