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Speaker 1: But the Chief Minister Leofanoccio is facing increasing pressure to

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Speaker 1: identify the senior public executive referred to in an NTIICAC report,

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Speaker 1: which was indeed released on Friday. Now, the ICAC Delegate

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Speaker 1: Patricia Kelly found a senior public servant had committed unsatisfactory

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Speaker 1: conduct in the management of their conflicts of interest after

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Speaker 1: failing to disclose the full extent of their friendship with

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Speaker 1: a candidate, despite remaining on the recruitment panel and providing

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Speaker 1: them with a reference. Now, what we know is that

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Speaker 1: this person was not able to be disclosed or the

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Speaker 1: identity not able to be disclosed under section fifty five

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Speaker 1: of the IKAK Act, which I read out for you

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Speaker 1: a little bit earlier this morning. Now, the Chief Minister

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Speaker 1: said on the show on Monday, the IKAK had made

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Speaker 1: the decision not to name the person, so it was

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Speaker 1: now about education and moving forward making sure it doesn't

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Speaker 1: happen again. But does that go far enough? Well? Joining

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Speaker 1: me on the line is the Independent Member for Johnson,

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Speaker 1: Justine Davis. Good morning to you, Justine.

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Speaker 2: Hey Katie, how are you going.

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Speaker 1: You're really good? Thank you so much for your time

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Speaker 1: this morning. Now, Justine, obviously this person's not been named,

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Speaker 1: you and I both being very careful with what we say. However,

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Speaker 1: it is a senior public servant, someone we would expect

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Speaker 1: would know how to handle a conflict of interest. What

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Speaker 1: do you make of this situation?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I just want to say that those it's

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Speaker 2: not necessary that I want to name them. I don't

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Speaker 2: even need the Chief Minister to name them. But what

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Speaker 2: I do want to know is that appropriate action has

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Speaker 2: been taken and that senior public servants, people who are

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Speaker 2: making decisions that impact on you, on me, on our

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Speaker 2: whole community, are accountable for those actions. But we're not

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Speaker 2: hearing that, you know. I think that what we know

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Speaker 2: is that release this report Operation Apollo. When they release

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Speaker 2: a report, what they do is they give it to

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Speaker 2: the minister responsible to take appropriate which is in this

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Speaker 2: case the Chief Minister. I haven't seen any appropriate action

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Speaker 2: being taken, so that doesn't fill me with confidence, and

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Speaker 2: it doesn't feel people in my community who are talking

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Speaker 2: to me with confidence about the people who were there

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Speaker 2: who were meant to be looking after us.

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Speaker 1: Justine, what do you think that the Chief Minister needs

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Speaker 1: to do at these points?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting. I didn't hear

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Speaker 2: earlier when you were talking about section fifty five. But

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Speaker 2: now I'm certainly no expert, but I went in to

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Speaker 2: look at the Act as well when the Chief Minister

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Speaker 2: was talking about that, and Ikak is certainly precluded from

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Speaker 2: naming someone, but the Chief Minister is not. That's not

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Speaker 2: my understanding of it. You know, the whole point of

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Speaker 2: the Ikak Act is to give information to the Executive

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Speaker 2: Government for them to decide how to deal with it,

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Speaker 2: and they can if it's appropriate to name someone, they

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Speaker 2: can do that. That's my understanding of it. I may

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Speaker 2: or may not be right, but I think that we

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Speaker 2: need to know that, we need to know the truth.

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Speaker 2: That will be good to find that out. I think

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Speaker 2: that now I've lost your question that.

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Speaker 1: I just asked. Really what you think the Chief Minister

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Speaker 1: needs to do at this point, And by the sounds

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Speaker 1: of it, you do feel as though she needs to

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Speaker 1: come out and be open and transparent and name this person.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think she definitely needs to take some decisive

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Speaker 2: action to show people that this issue has been addressed. So,

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Speaker 2: as I said this, we don't know who this person is,

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Speaker 2: but potentially it's someone who could have a lot of

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Speaker 2: power in our community, and we need to know that

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Speaker 2: people like that are people that are accountable, take responsibility

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Speaker 2: for their actions. If things do go wrong, that those

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Speaker 2: things are addressed and we know they're not going to

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Speaker 2: happen again. So that's what I would want to be

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Speaker 2: hearing from our chief Minister. How's that going to happen?

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Speaker 1: Justine? Do you think that the senior public servant can

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Speaker 1: stay on in their role?

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Speaker 2: Well, that's not a question for me, but I think

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Speaker 2: if trust has been undermined in them, and they've clearly

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Speaker 2: been identified, you know, as being engaged in improper conduct,

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Speaker 2: it's going to be pretty difficult. I'm you know, they

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Speaker 2: also have a role. They could come out and address

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Speaker 2: it the issues that you know, they've been found to

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Speaker 2: have dealt with in improper conduct. And a few people

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Speaker 2: have said that to me, Well, you know whatever, the

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Speaker 2: small place, we're all kind of connected to each other,

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Speaker 2: and for me, that's not the actual issue in this situation.

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Speaker 2: The issue is that there's been an investigation. Someone who

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Speaker 2: is obviously in a senior position, you know, a position

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Speaker 2: of authority, has been found to do something wrong and

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Speaker 2: it hasn't been addressed. He could come out or she

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Speaker 2: or she or whoever it is could come out and

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Speaker 2: address it publicly as well. That could be an option

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Speaker 2: for them.

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Speaker 1: Justine, we know that Parliament is going to be sitting

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Speaker 1: again soon. Are you going to be asking questions about this?

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Speaker 1: And could you name this person under parliamentary privilege?

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Speaker 2: Look, as I said earlier, that's that's not why I

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Speaker 2: want to do, and I'm really hopeful that it will

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Speaker 2: have been addressed before Parliament, which is sitting in a

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Speaker 2: couple of weeks. But if not, you know, as a

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Speaker 2: member of Parliament, I've also I'm also bound by a

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Speaker 2: code of conduct, and that code of conduct says that

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Speaker 2: I have to act in the public interest, and I

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Speaker 2: believe that it's in the public interest to know that.

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Speaker 2: As I said, we can trust our seeing your public servants,

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Speaker 2: we can trust our elected representatives, and part of that

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Speaker 2: is knowing that when people have done something wrong, that's addressed.

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Speaker 2: So if it hasn't been if it hasn't been addressed

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Speaker 2: by that point, I will be asking questions in Parliament.

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Speaker 2: I will be naming this person if I feel like

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Speaker 2: that's the only option before us to actually make sure

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Speaker 2: that people can have confidence in their systems.

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Speaker 1: Justine. You know, we know that the Eye CAAG has

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Speaker 1: gone through some serious, you know, some serious changes in

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Speaker 1: terms of you know, who's setting up the IKAG all

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing. At the moment, we have indeed

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Speaker 1: got Greg Shanahan acting as the eye CAAC. Do you

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Speaker 1: think that that's appropriate given that he was the former

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Speaker 1: head of the Attorney General Justice and as I understand it,

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Speaker 1: did rewrite the ic Act.

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Speaker 2: It's a very good question, Katie. Many people have raised

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Speaker 2: that with me as well. I think i CAAQ has

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Speaker 2: There's been many many issues with IICQ. We know that

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Speaker 2: a lot of them have been to do with conflict

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Speaker 2: of interest and i CAQ. I am a huge fan

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Speaker 2: of the importance of IKAK. We need to have an

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Speaker 2: institution here that's independent, that can investigate corruption in our

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Speaker 2: public system. But we need to be able to trust it,

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Speaker 2: you know, absolutely trust it. So if people have concern

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Speaker 2: about who's running it, the way it's operating, then we

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Speaker 2: need to address that straight straight away so we know

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Speaker 2: that it can do the job that it's set up

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Speaker 2: to do.

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Speaker 1: Look, we have got so many people messaging in this

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Speaker 1: morning about this. I mean, Andrew's just messaged through he said, Hi, Katie.

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Speaker 1: By not naming the offender public servant, a stain is

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Speaker 1: cast across all senior public servants. The ikak is a

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Speaker 1: giant waste of taxpayers money and needs to go reckons. Andrew.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's I mean, that's just one comment that's

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Speaker 1: come through. There's plenty of others. But I do wonder,

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Speaker 1: you know, with this situation, it's you know, like you

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Speaker 1: can't help but draw comparisons to the very public situation

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Speaker 1: that we saw the former Children's commissioner go through. Colleen

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Speaker 1: Gwynn were wound up in court and ultimately, you know,

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Speaker 1: was found that like she hadn't you know, she hadn't

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Speaker 1: done the wrong thing or I mean she'd obviously a

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Speaker 1: friend had been appointed, but she she declared that conflict.

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Speaker 1: You know, like, I can't help but draw those comparisons,

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Speaker 1: and and and just think why are they so different

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Speaker 1: in these two situations now, in the ways in which

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Speaker 1: they're being handled.

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Speaker 2: That's a great question. And it's interesting what that caller

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Speaker 2: just said, Andrew. But also in not identifying this, it does,

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Speaker 2: you know, cast doubt on a whole range of people.

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Speaker 2: And that's not how we that's not how we want

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Speaker 2: to be operating. I mean, I think we need our

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Speaker 2: systems both to be robust, to be able to trust

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Speaker 2: them and to be efficient to do their job. Well.

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Speaker 2: I think there's lots of you know, there's been lots

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Speaker 2: and lots of talk about IKQ, there's lots of other

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Speaker 2: models that we could look at. As I said, I

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Speaker 2: think it's imperative that we have something like that here

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Speaker 2: in the territory. It's a complicated place because we're so small.

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Speaker 2: There are conflicts of interest all over the place. But

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Speaker 2: we can we can manage that. We just need to

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Speaker 2: make sure we've got systems in place to do it

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Speaker 2: well and to address things well.

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Speaker 1: Well, Justine, it's a situation that is not going away

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Speaker 1: in a hurry by the look of us. So we'll

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Speaker 1: be keeping a very close eye on things. When does

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Speaker 1: Parliament go back next week or the week after.

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Speaker 2: The week after? So yeah, so we'll see, Yeah, we'll

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Speaker 2: see what happens.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well we will no doubt talk to

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Speaker 1: you again very soon. Not have we got you on

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Speaker 1: for the week that was on Friday? Potentially possibly seeing

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Speaker 1: if you can move a few things. That's all right,

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Speaker 1: justin well, well, I won't put you on the spot

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Speaker 1: live on Are sorry. Thank you as thank you.

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Speaker 2: We'll talk to you soon.

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Speaker 1: You too, thank you.