1
00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,000
Speaker 1: What if it was not a good idea to not

2
00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:12,480
Speaker 1: just punish your children, but a bad idea to reward them.

3
00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,560
Speaker 1: Imagine if somebody was to write a book that explained

4
00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:20,280
Speaker 1: that rewards and punishments are the lowest form of education

5
00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:22,479
Speaker 1: and there are so many different things we could be

6
00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,239
Speaker 1: doing to help our children to behave in helpful ways,

7
00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:30,520
Speaker 1: in fact, to go deeper to develop moral character. Hello,

8
00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,000
Speaker 1: welcome to the Happy Families Podcast, Real Parenting Solutions every Day.

9
00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,320
Speaker 1: It's Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. Thank you so much

10
00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:41,040
Speaker 1: for joining us. We are Justin and Kylie Colson and Kylie.

11
00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,840
Speaker 1: Today we're going to have a quick chat a preview

12
00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:45,800
Speaker 1: of an interview that I did with one of the

13
00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:50,520
Speaker 1: world's most fascinating people, I think, a guy called Alfie Cone.

14
00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:51,760
Speaker 2: Let me read out his bio.

15
00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:54,720
Speaker 1: Alfie Cone is a renowned author, educator, and social critic

16
00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,120
Speaker 1: who's been challenging conventional wisdom in education, parenting, and human

17
00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,640
Speaker 1: behavior for over three decades. Known for his provocative books

18
00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,560
Speaker 1: including Punished by Rewards and The Schools Our Children Deserve,

19
00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:10,240
Speaker 1: Alfiecone's been a vocal critic of standardized testing, traditional grading systems,

20
00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:15,320
Speaker 1: and competitive educational approaches. His research back to arguments advocate

21
00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:21,800
Speaker 1: for collaborative learning environments, unconditional parenting, and intrinsic motivation over

22
00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:27,040
Speaker 1: reward based systems. As one of the world's most outspoken

23
00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,759
Speaker 1: voices on these topics, he continues to influence teachers, parents

24
00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,199
Speaker 1: and policymakers through his lectures, articles, and books that question

25
00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,280
Speaker 1: our fundamental assumptions about how we learn and grow. And

26
00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,480
Speaker 1: he's on the Happy Families podcast on Saturday. Such a

27
00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,640
Speaker 1: great conversation. Kylie got to talk to him about some

28
00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,920
Speaker 1: really cool stuff, and this was an interview that you

29
00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:46,920
Speaker 1: listened to and just were blown away by.

30
00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:52,360
Speaker 3: For an academic who writes very dry, listening to him

31
00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,760
Speaker 3: is just an exercise of sitting on the edge of

32
00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,120
Speaker 3: your seat the entire time. Everything that comes out out

33
00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:01,840
Speaker 3: of his mouth is just a what.

34
00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:04,520
Speaker 1: I don't even think he right strive, but the way

35
00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,840
Speaker 1: he speaks, he's dynamic and excitable would be the word

36
00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:08,320
Speaker 1: that I use.

37
00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:08,919
Speaker 3: Passionate.

38
00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:10,040
Speaker 2: Passionate. Yeah, that's right.

39
00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,360
Speaker 1: So we're going to share just two snippets of a much, much,

40
00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,359
Speaker 1: much much longer conversation in today's podcast. We'll replay the

41
00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:19,280
Speaker 1: whole thing on Saturday. I think that you're going to

42
00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,720
Speaker 1: love it. We're going to start by sharing a thing

43
00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:26,120
Speaker 1: that he shared with me when I asked him what

44
00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,960
Speaker 1: is the problem with punishment, Here's what he said.

45
00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:35,760
Speaker 4: Punishment teaches power. It undermines the possibility of moral growth

46
00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,960
Speaker 4: in children. If I say to kids, do this, or

47
00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,320
Speaker 4: here's how I'm going to make you suffer, which is

48
00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,760
Speaker 4: what punishment is. And by the way, you can call

49
00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,720
Speaker 4: it consequences, it's still the same thing. It says to kids,

50
00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:49,720
Speaker 4: do this or here's what I'm going to do to you.

51
00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:55,160
Speaker 4: Then kids are first of all, thinking only about themselves,

52
00:02:55,440 --> 00:03:00,239
Speaker 4: how do I avoid the punishment? Never about the impact

53
00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:05,560
Speaker 4: of their actions on others. All use of consequences, punishment

54
00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,240
Speaker 4: focuses kids narrowly on self interest.

55
00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,639
Speaker 1: That was about forty seconds. There are so many things

56
00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:17,000
Speaker 1: that we can pull out of that that. I mean,

57
00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,240
Speaker 1: this is dense. There is a lot for us to discuss.

58
00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:26,160
Speaker 3: The thing that stands out to me specifically here is

59
00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:31,720
Speaker 3: the word I. I have read his works, I have

60
00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,440
Speaker 3: listened to him specifically talk about this topic a number

61
00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:42,520
Speaker 3: of times now, and maybe I've just forgotten, but hearing

62
00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:47,320
Speaker 3: at this time the recognition that while ever we provide

63
00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:52,840
Speaker 3: a consequence for our child. Essentially, what we are doing

64
00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:57,440
Speaker 3: is turning their thinking inward.

65
00:03:57,960 --> 00:03:59,840
Speaker 1: So the way that I described this when I'm teaching

66
00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,400
Speaker 1: similar principle is that punishment makes kids the victim and

67
00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:06,320
Speaker 1: they start to think about themselves. Like if you stick

68
00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,560
Speaker 1: a child in time out to think about what they've done,

69
00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:10,400
Speaker 1: they just think about how much they hate you, how

70
00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:12,480
Speaker 1: unfair you are, how you don't understand what's going on.

71
00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:14,880
Speaker 1: It makes it all about them, And like you said,

72
00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:20,800
Speaker 1: therefore it undermines moral growth and it exacerbates, it amplifies

73
00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,800
Speaker 1: selfishness because I'm thinking about me rather than the impact

74
00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,040
Speaker 1: of what I did and how it affected other people.

75
00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:28,679
Speaker 3: And then if you take it the next step further,

76
00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:35,640
Speaker 3: then how do I avoid punishment actually pushes bad behavior underground?

77
00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:36,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, we.

78
00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,280
Speaker 3: Just find ways to do the same thing without getting

79
00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,960
Speaker 3: caught next time. I think about the numerous times, whether

80
00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:46,880
Speaker 3: it be in the classroom, even in our home from

81
00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:51,080
Speaker 3: time to time where kids have literally said you can't

82
00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:55,239
Speaker 3: do that to me, they're not thinking about what they've done.

83
00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,000
Speaker 3: They're literally thinking about how they get away with doing.

84
00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,760
Speaker 3: What they're doing is a no. That idea of a

85
00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:04,200
Speaker 3: moral compass. There isn't one.

86
00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,159
Speaker 1: And that is the thing when I'm talking about why

87
00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,960
Speaker 1: we need to move away from punishments, it's because of

88
00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:15,320
Speaker 1: moral reasons. If I'm only doing something out of self interest,

89
00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,599
Speaker 1: then I'm not going to experience the inner growth. I'm

90
00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,320
Speaker 1: not going to develop the moral character that's necessary for

91
00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,680
Speaker 1: me to understand that. I'm not going to develop the

92
00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,160
Speaker 1: empathy because it's just about if I do it, what's

93
00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:27,840
Speaker 1: going to happen to me?

94
00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:29,320
Speaker 2: Or if I don't do it, what's going to happen

95
00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:33,040
Speaker 2: to me? Am I willing? It makes everything transactional. I

96
00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:34,719
Speaker 2: think it breeds psychopathy.

97
00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,320
Speaker 3: And when you see it so starkly put like that,

98
00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:44,880
Speaker 3: you can see how within school systems specifically, because we're

99
00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:49,160
Speaker 3: talking about children, you've almost got this vicious cycle happening

100
00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,520
Speaker 3: between kids doing the wrong things, teachers punishing or providing

101
00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,839
Speaker 3: consequences for their behavior, which then in turn creates a

102
00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,479
Speaker 3: bigger dynamic that's going on, and we just keep going

103
00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:04,719
Speaker 3: around in this ugly, ugly circle of kids who then

104
00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:09,080
Speaker 3: become labeled for being troubling kids, but the systems actually

105
00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:09,720
Speaker 3: creating it.

106
00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,720
Speaker 1: You've used the word consequences several times now as you've

107
00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,680
Speaker 1: been talking about it, and I'm really glad that Alfie

108
00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:21,320
Speaker 1: points this out that punishment and consequences are basically synonymous.

109
00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,479
Speaker 1: It's just that consequences is a diluted, softer, nicer.

110
00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,000
Speaker 3: Way, so we feel like we're being a good person

111
00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:28,159
Speaker 3: because we're not punishing them.

112
00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,120
Speaker 2: That's right. There's just consequences to what you've done. Now.

113
00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,520
Speaker 1: Now, it's true that consequences exist whether you apply them

114
00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,920
Speaker 1: or not. But really, at the heart of it, punishment

115
00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,280
Speaker 1: is about applying the kinds of consequences that lead to suffering,

116
00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:41,960
Speaker 1: but they don't necessarily lead to learning.

117
00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:42,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I like that.

118
00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:44,680
Speaker 1: After the break, we're going to talk about something else

119
00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,479
Speaker 1: that Alfie Kohn is not a fan of rewards.

120
00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:55,640
Speaker 2: Okay.

121
00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,040
Speaker 1: One of the most fascinating conversations that I've ever had

122
00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,600
Speaker 1: on the podcast was with Alphie Carr. Alphacone's written some

123
00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,320
Speaker 1: of the most influential books in my life. Unconditional Parenting

124
00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:07,839
Speaker 1: and Punished by Rewards are two books that I leave

125
00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,560
Speaker 1: in my top ten at all times. They're just phenomenal books.

126
00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:16,560
Speaker 1: And he answered my question when I asked, what's the problem?

127
00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,480
Speaker 1: I get the issue with punishment. What's the problem with

128
00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:23,880
Speaker 1: rewards because so many parents really do want to reward

129
00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:25,840
Speaker 1: to bribe their kids.

130
00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:26,920
Speaker 2: Here's what he said.

131
00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,480
Speaker 4: Rewards are just the flip side of punishment. So if

132
00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,119
Speaker 4: I reward children or offer to reward them, I'm saying,

133
00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,440
Speaker 4: do this and you'll get that. So in the first case,

134
00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,440
Speaker 4: with punishment, kids come to ask the question what do

135
00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,680
Speaker 4: they want me to do? And what happens to me

136
00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,280
Speaker 4: if I don't do it. If you offer a reward

137
00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:53,200
Speaker 4: for good behavior, which typically means mindlessly obedient, not generous

138
00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:57,160
Speaker 4: or thoughtful, then the question kids come to ask is

139
00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,440
Speaker 4: what do they want me to do and what do

140
00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:04,040
Speaker 4: I for doing it? And so the research is very

141
00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:09,520
Speaker 4: clear that rewards, like punishments, can only get temporary compliance,

142
00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:14,600
Speaker 4: and in both cases they retard moral and social and

143
00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:16,200
Speaker 4: intellectual development.

144
00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:23,360
Speaker 3: Oh, this guy's so good on the surface, you think

145
00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:28,240
Speaker 3: that by offering your children a reward, you're encouraging them

146
00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:33,840
Speaker 3: to do good things. And yet his words, just what

147
00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,120
Speaker 3: is it that I'm trying to achieve when I ask

148
00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,280
Speaker 3: my child to do something? When I suggest that if

149
00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:43,240
Speaker 3: they do X, Y and Z, there's a reward, no

150
00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,080
Speaker 3: parent is going to ask for mindless obedience.

151
00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:48,000
Speaker 2: Well, every now and again, it's kind of handy.

152
00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,600
Speaker 1: I'm not going to lie like sometimes it's just just

153
00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,320
Speaker 1: do it, don't even ask, just do it. But again,

154
00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:55,920
Speaker 1: if you go back to the punishment conversation, what we're

155
00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:57,840
Speaker 1: really loving for is character.

156
00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,960
Speaker 2: We're looking for moral de development.

157
00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,720
Speaker 3: But mindless obedience only helps them while ever you're in

158
00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,440
Speaker 3: the room, precisely as soon as you're not there, there's

159
00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:08,840
Speaker 3: no moral compass guiding their every move.

160
00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,840
Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be nice if they had developed the character

161
00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,760
Speaker 1: to look for ways that they could serve and have

162
00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,600
Speaker 1: an impact in the lives of others, So that, for example,

163
00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,360
Speaker 1: if you were away for a couple of hours, you

164
00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,440
Speaker 1: came home and they cleaned up the kitchen or hung

165
00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:26,360
Speaker 1: out a lot of washing or done something like that,

166
00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,360
Speaker 1: why not because they want not because they want a rod,

167
00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,959
Speaker 1: but because they've recognized that there's a need and they're

168
00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:37,640
Speaker 1: inclined to help. We will have a much longer conversation

169
00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,600
Speaker 1: with Alfie Cone on Saturday. We just wanted to give

170
00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,400
Speaker 1: you a taste because my goodness, is this an interview

171
00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,400
Speaker 1: that you want to catch to home?

172
00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:46,920
Speaker 3: Miss out?

173
00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,720
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, So that's on Saturday the full thing.

174
00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:54,040
Speaker 1: Alfie Cone, author Social critic, commentator.

175
00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,520
Speaker 2: And all round a genius is what I'm going to say.

176
00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,000
Speaker 1: Genius and the author of some of my favorite book

177
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,520
Speaker 1: books will play the whole interview for you on Saturday.

178
00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,920
Speaker 2: I think that you're going to absolutely love it.

179
00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,280
Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from

180
00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,520
Speaker 1: Bridge Media. For more information and resources to make your

181
00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,040
Speaker 1: family happier, visit happyfamilies dot com dot a