Speaker 1: Welcome back to TV Reload. My name's Benjamin Norris, and
Speaker 1: on this podcast, I'll be going behind the scenes with
Speaker 1: the biggest players in television. I'd love to start this
Speaker 1: week's podcast by suggesting some other content that you could
Speaker 1: check out. There is a podcast series called Big Brother's
Speaker 1: Big Eye, and there you will find three fanboys who
Speaker 1: are commenting on the current series. They have been super
Speaker 1: fans for years and basically have all grown up watching
Speaker 1: the show, and they do a really good job. It's
Speaker 1: great to see some opinions being shared. And while I've
Speaker 1: been focusing on all television away from Big Brother this year,
Speaker 1: I still love hearing what people think of the show.
Speaker 1: But it might not be as good as Margaret Pomorance
Speaker 1: dragging Big Brother for three whole minutes online, which you
Speaker 1: might want to check out. A good way to see
Speaker 1: that is on TV tonight, as I think they've posted it.
Speaker 1: It's bloody hilarious and I know you will love it.
Speaker 1: This week I saw an advanced screening of Acorn Original's
Speaker 1: series two of Missus Fisher's Modern Murder Mystery that will
Speaker 1: be available on June seventh, which I really liked. It's
Speaker 1: super camp and I grew up watching, she wrote, so
Speaker 1: I love a good murder mystery. However, I love Joel
Speaker 1: Jackson even more. You might have seen him in the
Speaker 1: award winning role of Peter Allen and the Boy from OZ.
Speaker 1: He is so sexy and I'm just going to shut
Speaker 1: up about him right now because I've started to embarrass myself.
Speaker 1: Check out the trailer for that show and let me
Speaker 1: know what you think on Twitter. My Twitter handle is
Speaker 1: Benjamin J.
Speaker 2: Morris.
Speaker 1: Coming up next week on the podcast, I'll have Scott Ryan,
Speaker 1: the creator, writer and star of Mister end Between, which
Speaker 1: we'll launch on Foxtel on May twenty six at eight thirty.
Speaker 1: It was shot in Sydney and you all know how
Speaker 1: much I love Australian content. On today's episode, I'll be
Speaker 1: chatting with Alistair McKinnon, who is the Matchbox Pictures MD.
Speaker 1: He's got a very interesting story which led him to
Speaker 1: some great experience working at ABC Australia, but now he's
Speaker 1: at the helm of Matchbox. We talk about everything from
Speaker 1: Stateless with Cate Blanchette, the upcoming series Things I Know
Speaker 1: to Be True with Nicole Kidman, and then we move
Speaker 1: into the Real Housewives of Melbourne, where we discuss who
Speaker 1: of the housewives will be on Celebrity go or should
Speaker 1: I say, who should be on Celebrity goggle Box. If
Speaker 1: you love the ins and outs of the television industry,
Speaker 1: well press subscribe to this podcast and in the meantime
Speaker 1: let's get started. Good today's guest, I'd like to welcome
Speaker 1: Alistair McKinnon to TV Reload.
Speaker 2: Luckily, Australian audiences do love watching Australian stories. It's scary
Speaker 2: having to carry a secret, it's even scarier putting yourself
Speaker 2: out there. You make absolutely the best work that you
Speaker 2: can with the resources that you have. I think the
Speaker 2: producers have brought together an amazing array of talent. I
Speaker 2: think winning an Emmy is as good as winning an Oscar?
Speaker 2: Has I actually been offended even looking at your Well,
Speaker 2: Jackie's doing Housewives of Melbourne at the moment, so so
Speaker 2: I think I think she'd be great on a Celebrity
Speaker 2: boggle Box.
Speaker 3: Stayless for Me turns the expected storytelling on its head.
Speaker 2: We're a broad Church at Matchbox and I'm proud of
Speaker 2: all of it.
Speaker 1: Hey mate, how are you?
Speaker 2: I'm very well? Thanks Ben? How are you doing?
Speaker 1: I'm actually doing really well, And if I'm honest, I'm
Speaker 1: just really excited to have you here on TV Reload
Speaker 1: talking about television and film, which is my favorite thing,
Speaker 1: and that's what we have in common because it's your
Speaker 1: favorite thing as well.
Speaker 2: Indeed, I've made a career of it, so I'm delighted
Speaker 2: to be here and talking to you.
Speaker 1: Then, well, that's nice to hear. My first question I
Speaker 1: have for you is what was your master class of
Speaker 1: television and film? You know, what sparked the spark inside
Speaker 1: of you growing up that made you want to work
Speaker 1: in this industry.
Speaker 2: Look, it's probably a couple of things. I mean, I
Speaker 2: was obsessed with film growing up. So I grew up
Speaker 2: in a relatively small country town in Victoria, and it
Speaker 2: was pretty broad. You know, I was watching everything. I mean,
Speaker 2: this is the eighties, So when I think back to
Speaker 2: that time, it was things like, you know, the John
Speaker 2: Hughes films towards the late eighties, you know, things like
Speaker 2: Working Girl and Aliens, and you know, I sort of
Speaker 2: devoured more. But I was also really obsessed with classic
Speaker 2: Golden Age of Hollywood as well, So you know, I
Speaker 2: was really into all of those Katherine Hepburn and Spencer,
Speaker 2: Tracy Movies, Davis, and just used to watch film all
Speaker 2: the time. I mean it was my number one past
Speaker 2: and I was not a sports playing child, so I
Speaker 2: was very much indoors watching, glued to the vhs. I
Speaker 2: had a very well used membership at our local video shop.
Speaker 2: And then I think on the TV side, I was
Speaker 2: kind of quite into those. It's probably a bit revealing overall,
Speaker 2: but I was quite into some of those quite high camp,
Speaker 2: you know, event miniseriies, so things like The Thornbirds and
Speaker 2: Returned to Eden, things like that that were just such
Speaker 2: high drama that now would be the stuff of satire
Speaker 2: and spoof, but at the time were kind of these
Speaker 2: conversation pieces that just the whole world was talking about.
Speaker 2: So I was always very into that. And then, of course,
Speaker 2: you know, as a young tenang, I love neighbors like
Speaker 2: everyone else, Jason and Kylie and Guy Pierce and those
Speaker 2: soaps so look pretty broad for me, I would say.
Speaker 1: I just realized that we must be the same age
Speaker 1: because Aliens and Work are in my top ten films
Speaker 1: of all time. Aliens.
Speaker 2: Aliens is my favorite film of all time.
Speaker 1: It's my favorite film. Okay, we don't want to be
Speaker 1: those annoying people on a podcast. I like broccoli. No,
Speaker 1: I like broccoli, but I think it's amazing that we
Speaker 1: have that same film. But also I wouldn't swim in
Speaker 1: our pool at home at nighttime because of Return to Eden.
Speaker 3: My name is Stephanie Harper and this is Eden here,
Speaker 3: and my father was keen on the day he died
Speaker 3: seventeen years ago.
Speaker 2: I was twenty three, lonely and afraid.
Speaker 3: If I'd known then of the nightmare that lay ahead,
Speaker 3: I think I'd have chosen to.
Speaker 2: Die with him. Yeah, I mean it's a classic. I
Speaker 2: still have Returned to Eden on DVD, not that I
Speaker 2: have a dvdy same or but I have a copy
Speaker 2: that I can watch if I get the right equipment.
Speaker 1: And just to give people an idea of what that is.
Speaker 1: In that mini series, which was just to classic in
Speaker 1: the eighties, there was a crocodile scene in someone's swimming
Speaker 1: pool in their backyard and it ruined people for swimming
Speaker 1: and swimming pools. Yeah, for generations, it's a muugh wlatch.
Speaker 1: How did you get into television then? How do you
Speaker 1: transcend from being just passionate about it and then getting
Speaker 1: into this industry and really owning it.
Speaker 2: Look, I think I was always pretty focused on it,
Speaker 2: and it was always the direction I wanted to go in.
Speaker 2: I think at various times I thought maybe I wanted
Speaker 2: to be a writer or a director, and you know,
Speaker 2: didn't really particularly have any aptitude for either of those
Speaker 2: creative endeavors. I ended up doing studying law at university,
Speaker 2: but I did go to film school as well at VCA,
Speaker 2: and I think I got to the end of sort
Speaker 2: of much to my parents' sort of pain, I think,
Speaker 2: you know, nine years of university jumping between law and
Speaker 2: film and all of that, and realized that I was
Speaker 2: probably definitely more suited to that business side. And then,
Speaker 2: almost by chance, I've been living in London working for
Speaker 2: my uncle who was a documentary filmmaker, and I moved
Speaker 2: back to Australia to Sydney, and one of the first
Speaker 2: jobs I got was at the ABC. It was meant
Speaker 2: to be sort of like a temporary thing while I
Speaker 2: was settling in and then kind of stuck around, and
Speaker 2: then I ended up getting a job in the legal
Speaker 2: department there. So my first kind of industry job was
Speaker 2: actually within the legal team at the ABC, and in
Speaker 2: there you're sort of doing things like, you know, there's
Speaker 2: some proper law stuff like defamation actions and pre publication advice,
Speaker 2: and I was always trying to drift closer to the content.
Speaker 2: And so from there I went to the Australian Film Commission,
Speaker 2: was working in legal there. I did a stin at
Speaker 2: the Writers Guild in policy. Then I was at Screen Australia,
Speaker 2: also in policy. I worked at OZ Film for a
Speaker 2: time doing international production attraction and then found my way
Speaker 2: to SBS Business Affairs, which was you know, I stayed.
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed a lot and ended up as the
Speaker 2: head of Business Affairs, but was still trying very much
Speaker 2: to move closer to content. And then Greer Simpkin, who's
Speaker 2: a good friend who at the time as a deputy
Speaker 2: head of Fiction at the ABC, was leaving, which was
Speaker 2: had created this kind of very rare opportunity because people
Speaker 2: in those jobs tend to hang on to them because
Speaker 2: they're great jobs. And I managed to segue myself over
Speaker 2: into the fiction department at the ABC, and shortly not
Speaker 2: too long after that, Corrolsplan, who was the then head
Speaker 2: of Fiction, resigned or retired and I found myself as
Speaker 2: the acting head of fiction suddenly at the ABC until amazing.
Speaker 2: It's a combination of intention and ambition and always coupled,
Speaker 2: I think, with a little bit of luck and timing.
Speaker 2: I think sometimes you can't really necessarily map those things
Speaker 2: out in a really controlled way. You're at the mercy
Speaker 2: of external forces. But you know, I've definitely had some
Speaker 2: luck along the way.
Speaker 1: I always say to people, you know, nothing happens in
Speaker 1: a straight line, and I think that the greatest people
Speaker 1: are the ones that your passion and your skill set
Speaker 1: comes together, and I think that's ultimately your story.
Speaker 2: I certainly would never, however, many years ago, have imagined
Speaker 2: or envisaged myself running a production company I'm doing now
Speaker 2: certainly not one of the scale of Matchbox, But now
Speaker 2: that I'm in that role, it feels like the perfect
Speaker 2: fit for me, and I'm loving it, and it does
Speaker 2: feel like it is the culmination of all of these
Speaker 2: various jobs I've had, some were good, some were bad.
Speaker 2: That along the way, you're meeting people, you understanding of
Speaker 2: the industry and how it works kind of just is
Speaker 2: building and building.
Speaker 1: And you find yourself on Zoom chats with people like
Speaker 1: Cate Blanchette and Nicole kimm and I imagine and they're
Speaker 1: not a zoom chat with me.
Speaker 2: Look, look that that is the Triumvirate right there. You've
Speaker 2: mailed it. Yes, you do get to meet some pretty
Speaker 2: extraordinary people, and you have, you know, some pretty wild experiences.
Speaker 2: I mean, going to the Berlinali for a red carpet
Speaker 2: premiere with Cape Blanchett for Stateless.
Speaker 1: Stateless is a six part limited series that's set in
Speaker 1: Australia but deals with really universal themes.
Speaker 2: You know, they're the kind of great privileges that come
Speaker 2: along with working in an industry like this and also
Speaker 2: a job like this. So you know, I'm very lucky.
Speaker 1: You sometimes just have to pinch yourself at those moments
Speaker 1: and think this is otherworldly, but you kind of have
Speaker 1: to acknowledge it in a way, don't you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Look, I certainly never take anything for granted,
Speaker 2: and none of it is particularly easy, by the way.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think to get to those places is
Speaker 2: the combined effort of so many people. I mean, even
Speaker 2: just within Matchbox. You know, we're a pretty big team,
Speaker 2: but you know, a very talented, passionate team, But then
Speaker 2: also all the other people you're working with the writers,
Speaker 2: the directors, all of the creatives that come together and
Speaker 2: for things to work. Always say, it's just as hard.
Speaker 2: No one sets out to make a bad show or
Speaker 2: a bad film, and it's just as hard to like
Speaker 2: a good one as it is to make a bad one.
Speaker 2: And you're just relying on the sort of alchemy and
Speaker 2: so many elements kind of converging at the right time.
Speaker 2: You know, it's a lot of hard work, I think
Speaker 2: from so many people. It's such a collaborative industry to
Speaker 2: get you there. So when you do have those sorts
Speaker 2: of successes or those highs or those moments, yeah, you
Speaker 2: definitely can't take it for granted.
Speaker 1: What would you say is something that you brought from
Speaker 1: that experience at ABC into match Box.
Speaker 2: Look, I think one of the really helpful things for
Speaker 2: that is really understanding the internal workings of a broadcaster,
Speaker 2: having that insight about what's driving decision making, how those
Speaker 2: decisions are made. Sometimes when as a production company you
Speaker 2: might be frustrated at how long something's taking. Having worked there,
Speaker 2: I can say, well, look, this is the process. That's
Speaker 2: how that has to happen. So I think you know,
Speaker 2: we is needs to be patient or so I think
Speaker 2: it just helped bridge maybe a bit of a relationship
Speaker 2: gap that can exist from time to time, not always,
Speaker 2: but you know sometimes when that's there.
Speaker 1: Since taking over from Chris, what would you say is
Speaker 1: your proudest moment being at Matchbox now?
Speaker 2: Well, look, I mean there's been many, some of which
Speaker 2: I can't necessarily take credit for because there were things
Speaker 2: that were in train or in place before I got there.
Speaker 2: But I think one of the big things when I
Speaker 2: was coming in was trying to push match Box into
Speaker 2: being not just one of the top or the leading
Speaker 2: drama producer in Australia, but really pushing it to become
Speaker 2: more of a global drama brand. So I think, you know,
Speaker 2: the explosion of the streaming and we all know and
Speaker 2: talk about that a lot, and there's lots of industry
Speaker 2: debate at the moment about what that means and Netflix
Speaker 2: and Amazon and how do they kind of fit into
Speaker 2: the ecosystem here, But certainly even five years ago, that
Speaker 2: opportunity wasn't really there so much. So I think my
Speaker 2: main missions so I've got here is to really try
Speaker 2: and push out into the world more So, I think
Speaker 2: one of the things that I'm most excited about and
Speaker 2: you know, there are others coming down the line, but
Speaker 2: was certainly getting a series order from Amazon for Things
Speaker 2: I Don't be True with Nicole Kidman, you know, partnering
Speaker 2: with Blossom on that show, you know, Andrew Babell's exceptional
Speaker 2: play and his beautiful writing, all of that coming together,
Speaker 2: and then seeing the excitement from Amazon for that work
Speaker 2: and working with Nicole and at Blossom on that has
Speaker 2: been a really exciting, I think, demonstration of what that
Speaker 2: ambition looks like in practice. So it's one thing to say, yeah,
Speaker 2: we want to be on the world stage and we
Speaker 2: want to be making global shows and converting that is
Speaker 2: not straightforward and it's not easy. So for me, things
Speaker 2: I know to be true, that getting that across the
Speaker 2: line and now working towards bringing that to Scream feels
Speaker 2: that is something I'm pretty excited about and pretty proud of.
Speaker 1: Did you have a fascination for Nicole growing up?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: Is that a surreal moment?
Speaker 2: Bangkok Hilso was one of you know, I was obsessed
Speaker 2: with that show. That was kind of again, that was
Speaker 2: one of those great TV mini series events of that era. Yes,
Speaker 2: and Vietnam and Bem expand it's come on. I mean, like,
Speaker 2: you know, there was so much she was iconic in Australia,
Speaker 2: you know, long before she became that this sort of
Speaker 2: global icon.
Speaker 3: I think that many soldiers who served in Vietnam went
Speaker 3: believing that they were doing the right thing. But I
Speaker 3: think the issues of Australian and American involvement are much
Speaker 3: clearer now.
Speaker 2: Don't really give us stuff, what do you think? Yeah, no,
Speaker 2: I mean it's absolutely thrilling to be working with her.
Speaker 1: She's incredible and a lot of people say, you know,
Speaker 1: when you get a chance to meet Nicole, she's more
Speaker 1: impressive in real life than what you'd imagined.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I think we quite often can sometimes have a bit
Speaker 1: of a disconnect on celebrity, but when it comes to
Speaker 1: someone who's just reading the books and getting the work
Speaker 1: done and passionate about story. You know, everyone that's working
Speaker 1: with her since Nine Perfect Strangers is just in Australia
Speaker 1: is just like, it's unbelievable.
Speaker 2: I think, you know, just incredibly hard working, incredibly talented,
Speaker 2: and incredibly generous. And so I think being able to
Speaker 2: work with her as a gift absolutely undereniably.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, can you explain a little
Speaker 1: bit for maybe the non television industry professionals what that
Speaker 1: collaboration of NBC International and Matchbox Pictures is, like how
Speaker 1: that came together and the importance of it.
Speaker 2: Well, so I mean, going all the way back, I mean,
Speaker 2: and this is obviously long before my time. I mean,
Speaker 2: Matchbox was founded by producing creatives who I think you
Speaker 2: know ten We celebrated our tenth birthday a year ago,
Speaker 2: a year and a half ago, so you know, eleven
Speaker 2: years ago or so, coming together because I think they
Speaker 2: thought it's such a hard slog when you're a one
Speaker 2: man band or you know, you're trying to keep your
Speaker 2: head above order, no matter how talented you are. And
Speaker 2: I think they realized that by joining forces they could
Speaker 2: be much stronger as a group, which is how it
Speaker 2: turned out. And then NBC picked up on that and
Speaker 2: after about sort of five or six years, ended up
Speaker 2: buying the company out. That hasn't really changed, I think
Speaker 2: anything about what Matchbox stands for or it's DNA and
Speaker 2: in terms of the sorts of projects it makes and
Speaker 2: the values that we have as a company, the stories
Speaker 2: we tell the people that we want to represent on screen.
Speaker 2: But what it does mean is that we have this
Speaker 2: fantastic resource across the studio group in terms of experience
Speaker 2: and talent and advice, and you know, we can get
Speaker 2: access to people that you might not normally readily be
Speaker 2: able to get access to. NBCU is enormous and when
Speaker 2: you expand that out to include Universal Pictures and Focus
Speaker 2: and there is an incredible wealth of talent on the
Speaker 2: creative side, but also on the business side and on
Speaker 2: the strategic side. And so even though we still very
Speaker 2: much function as an independent Australian production company and we
Speaker 2: have incredible autonomy in what we do well.
Speaker 1: I guess the exceptional growth that you guys have had
Speaker 1: has just led to that. And I want to know
Speaker 1: how vital it is to collaborate with international partners and
Speaker 1: what that means for Matchbox.
Speaker 2: It's pretty essential because I think it's getting harder and
Speaker 2: harder to put together budgets here. You know, there's been
Speaker 2: a lot of inflationary effects on the cost of making television,
Speaker 2: but it hasn't been a correlating increase in terms of
Speaker 2: the sorts of license fees that broadcasters pay. Competition for
Speaker 2: eyeballs is fiercer than ever, so I think for some
Speaker 2: buyers or broadcaster as they think, well, maybe our value
Speaker 2: is actually declining because we're getting smaller audiences. Why would
Speaker 2: we pay more for that? But the challenge if you're
Speaker 2: an Australian production company is that your shows, whether it's
Speaker 2: in direct partnership with a streamer like a Netflix or
Speaker 2: an Amazon, or whether it's something you know, they're very
Speaker 2: good acquirers of Australian content. I mean, if you go
Speaker 2: to Netflix, they're great at picking up a lot of
Speaker 2: Australian drama. But then that means that your drama is
Speaker 2: sitting side by side with something that had five and
Speaker 2: ten times the budget. And so I'm kind of always
Speaker 2: very conscious of you make absolutely the best work that
Speaker 2: you can with the resources that you have, but then
Speaker 2: when suddenly you're slapped next to Bridgeton, it's hard not
Speaker 2: to be concerned about how people then might differentiate, say, oh,
Speaker 2: those Australian shows they don't look as polished as the
Speaker 2: big American ones or the UK ones. Maybe I'll lean
Speaker 2: that way, but I think those international partnerships are becoming
Speaker 2: more important. It's a very long winded way of saying
Speaker 2: in terms of like putting together the sorts of budgets
Speaker 2: you need, I guess, to compete in that global space.
Speaker 2: It's not really enough to be making a show on
Speaker 2: a traditional budget model and expect that to really land,
Speaker 2: necessarily with an American audience or what have you. That said,
Speaker 2: you then do have breakouts which surprise everybody. I mean
Speaker 2: Safe Harbor, which was a series we did for SBS,
Speaker 2: fantastic series. You know, it looks a billion dollars. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, the value is very much on screen for that.
Speaker 2: Incredibly talented people all over it, and that ended up
Speaker 2: becoming a huge success for us with global sales and
Speaker 2: won an international Emmy Award. So you know, there are
Speaker 2: exceptions to the rule, but I think in general we
Speaker 2: are in a situation of spiraling inflation on budgets and
Speaker 2: it's getting harder and harder to put together the finance
Speaker 2: for series. So yeah, international money is becoming more and
Speaker 2: more important.
Speaker 1: I think it's funny that you talk about the quality
Speaker 1: and comparing it against other markets and other countries, because
Speaker 1: you know the family law, seven types of ambiguity, total control.
Speaker 1: You know, they're all so beautifully shot. Doesn't matter whether
Speaker 1: it's a drama or a comedy. I feel like if
Speaker 1: you see the Matchbox come up, I get a sense
Speaker 1: of what I already know what to expect. There's a
Speaker 1: quality that comes across with all of the work. Is
Speaker 1: there a way in making sure that there is that
Speaker 1: kind of brand element?
Speaker 2: Look, I think there is a kind of Matchbox DNA,
Speaker 2: And I think Matchbox, because it has always had such
Speaker 2: a high standard for what we do and don't do,
Speaker 2: means that you are regularly attracting and working with the
Speaker 2: very best people. So that's very helpful. I mean, I
Speaker 2: think we've sort of talked Debbie Lee, who's our head
Speaker 2: of scripted. We always talk about the fact that we
Speaker 2: never would make anything or we'd never take anything on
Speaker 2: to develop unless there was somebody in the creative team
Speaker 2: that was prepared to kind of sweat blood at two
Speaker 2: in the morning, someone is prepared to absolutely die in
Speaker 2: a ditch for that idea or that show, and if
Speaker 2: it doesn't pass that threshold, then we don't do it.
Speaker 2: We would never take something off because for opportunistic reasons,
Speaker 2: you know, oh, hey, someone wants someone's got this idea
Speaker 2: and they've already got you know, a broadcast interested and
Speaker 2: lined up. If it doesn't really resonate for us. We
Speaker 2: would never do it just because we could. And I
Speaker 2: think that means you end up with a catalog like
Speaker 2: the one that we have, you know, the library of content.
Speaker 1: It's interesting, you know, I wonder whether or not actors
Speaker 1: are choosing to make television content over film content. Do
Speaker 1: you think that's the case. Do you think actors are
Speaker 1: being more drawn to making television content over taking film roles.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think you can't deny, you know, the
Speaker 2: absolute explosion of you know, traditionally the Hollywood movie stars
Speaker 2: doing television now. I mean watching Kate Winslet in Mayor
Speaker 2: of Eastown at the moment, and I think you could
Speaker 2: not say that she has given a better performance in
Speaker 2: any film she's ever done. I mean, I think it's
Speaker 2: her best work. I think it's an astonishingly good series.
Speaker 2: And I think actors have come to realize that a
Speaker 2: lot of those really top line actors have come to
Speaker 2: see that there is no real differentiation in terms of
Speaker 2: the quality and ambition that you can have. I mean,
Speaker 2: TV series now go anywhere and do anything. They have
Speaker 2: budgets wildly exceeding film, and so you see that reflected
Speaker 2: everyone from Julia Roberts to George Clooney to Kate winslet
Speaker 2: you know, they're all doing television, and I think there's
Speaker 2: no kind of snobbishness there anymore. I think winning an
Speaker 2: Emmy is as good as winning an Oscar. I think
Speaker 2: that's a really fantastic change, because there are so many
Speaker 2: stories that can't be told in nineteen minutes or are
Speaker 2: so truncated, particularly if you're looking at things like book
Speaker 2: adaptations or we're actually having that longer format to be
Speaker 2: able to tell stories just means you can bring so
Speaker 2: much more to it. And especially in a year where
Speaker 2: people were pretty much stuck at home and people weren't
Speaker 2: going to movie theaters anyway, and you had time to kill,
Speaker 2: people could really engage with the longer format. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, I think actors havenorned TV and way that
Speaker 2: they never were before. For sure.
Speaker 1: I can honestly tell you that my favorite moments in
Speaker 1: the last sixteen months have all been watching television at home,
Speaker 1: and that is a sign of the times, I guess,
Speaker 1: with having lockdowns and things like that. But I can
Speaker 1: tell you Big Little Lies was a great book, and
Speaker 1: having the privilege of the luxury, I guess I don't
Speaker 1: know how to describe it. Being told in long form
Speaker 1: just proved that there's there's a need, there's a thirst
Speaker 1: for it. People want, people want to They're willing to
Speaker 1: commit to this content, you know, they and they're well.
Speaker 2: And I think I may I may not be completely
Speaker 2: right about this, but I think that sort of long
Speaker 2: form premium TV storytelling has kind of replaced in some
Speaker 2: ways what used to be the mid budget feature film.
Speaker 2: So feature become these big event films like Quiet Place Too,
Speaker 2: or the Marvel films, or you know, these kind of
Speaker 2: you know sci fi or you know, effects laden mega blockbusters, Avengers,
Speaker 2: et cetera, or really arthouse more indie things, you know
Speaker 2: The Father recently, you know, those sorts of films that
Speaker 2: are speaking to a much more niche market. That sort
Speaker 2: of mid range, mid budget film, I think is finding
Speaker 2: it much much harder to get an audience, and I
Speaker 2: think they're harder to finance. And so it feels an observation,
Speaker 2: It feels to me like that sort of premium TV
Speaker 2: has really taken the place of that middle range. So
Speaker 2: you've got the megabudget at the top, you've got the
Speaker 2: low budget at the bottom, and in the middle, there's television.
Speaker 1: And you're producing alongside as we were talking about before,
Speaker 1: but you're producing with Nicole Kimmen with Blossom Films, well
Speaker 1: underneath the Blossom Films banner and association with Jen Chapman Films.
Speaker 1: What can you tell us about things I know to
Speaker 1: be true?
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I mean, well, I suppose a lot of
Speaker 2: people have seen the play because it's been a really
Speaker 2: successful theater production, and you know it was a Belvoir,
Speaker 2: but it also had international runs in America and in Europe,
Speaker 2: in the UK and in Spain. So I mean, I
Speaker 2: don't know if this is a so much. And because
Speaker 2: a lot of people have seen it, I know that
Speaker 2: every audience sees that ends up crying by the end
Speaker 2: of it because it's so moving. But was that this
Speaker 2: very Australian story that Andrew created said in the Adelaide
Speaker 2: suburbs resonated equally wherever it was performed. And I think
Speaker 2: it was something interesting too when Amazon, who our ultimate
Speaker 2: partners on it, when they read the scripts, they had
Speaker 2: exactly the same reaction to It's just this very universal
Speaker 2: story that I think is so right for the times
Speaker 2: as well, because it's about family and connection at a
Speaker 2: time when I think we've all been either separated from family,
Speaker 2: trying to get back together with family, trying to reconnect
Speaker 2: and thinking about world and relationship in a different way.
Speaker 2: I think it's something that audiences are going to really love.
Speaker 2: And I mean, and that's why you know, Amanda Higgs,
Speaker 2: who's an incredible producer, who was the person that saw
Speaker 2: the play and you know went after those rights, you know,
Speaker 2: immediately thank goodness for her. But of course, you know,
Speaker 2: you don't get to work with legends like Jan Chapman
Speaker 2: and companies like Blossom if you don't have something pretty special.
Speaker 2: So I don't know that that's so much of a
Speaker 2: tease other than to say I think it's going to
Speaker 2: be pretty exceptional, so people should be looking forward to it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think it ultimately, like Big Little Lies
Speaker 1: and The Undoing have sort of reinvented television drama in
Speaker 1: a way. You know, now with Nicole coming back into
Speaker 1: Australia to do Nine Perfect Strangers, was it a good
Speaker 1: opportunity to get involved with some of the best global
Speaker 1: storytellers at that point? Like, was that a moment where
Speaker 1: you're thinking, well, we can then tap into that as
Speaker 1: much as we can tap into our resources through NBC.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think the amazing thing about well,
Speaker 2: this kind of side bar from COVID or you know,
Speaker 2: an impact of COVID and Australia's successful handling of it
Speaker 2: or keeping it kind of relatively under control is of
Speaker 2: course we can see there is just so much American
Speaker 2: production that's come out to Australia, you know, and some
Speaker 2: of those you know, we're involved with, you know, Young
Speaker 2: Rock and Lebrea, which are shooting in Melbourne at the moment, Exotic,
Speaker 2: you know, we're looking after on the ground. But you know,
Speaker 2: there are so many other productions out here from Netflix
Speaker 2: and made up stories and that's a great thing for
Speaker 2: the industry because well there's pros and coms right. So
Speaker 2: on the one hand, you have the opportunity for Cruise
Speaker 2: one to be working at full capacity. Everybody's busy as
Speaker 2: hell and it's and that's a powerful thing. And people
Speaker 2: are getting exposure to budgets that they might never have
Speaker 2: normally been able to work with, and you're working with
Speaker 2: technology that you have been able to work with. So
Speaker 2: there's a huge kind of learning and upskilling that goes
Speaker 2: along with that. The downside, of course, being that competition
Speaker 2: for cruse and writers and directors has never been more ferocious,
Speaker 2: and people are just so busy that sometimes if you're
Speaker 2: trying to crew up a show, you literally just can't
Speaker 2: find the people. Not because you can't find the best people,
Speaker 2: you actually just can't find anyone. I mean, we were,
Speaker 2: you know, on some of our shows you're kind of
Speaker 2: trying to get builders or people that have or electricians
Speaker 2: that have never worked in the industry before trying to
Speaker 2: draw their men just because you can't find the people
Speaker 2: that are normally doing those roles because there's just so
Speaker 2: much going on, and I think we're pretty much at
Speaker 2: industry capacity. But to your point, yes, it means suddenly
Speaker 2: there's all of these people in town. There's people you're
Speaker 2: meeting and talking to and able to swap stories with,
Speaker 2: and I think it feels like a really great opportunity
Speaker 2: for everybody to kind of think differently about their ambition
Speaker 2: and who they're working with and finding other ways to
Speaker 2: collaborate and work because we're all scrambling for the same resources.
Speaker 1: How important would you say it is to show the
Speaker 1: rest of the world who we are in Australia you know,
Speaker 1: especially in this industry, how important do you think it
Speaker 1: is for us to be able to share our culture
Speaker 1: on a bigger scale.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that's vitally important. You know,
Speaker 2: Australians have always punched well above their weight when it
Speaker 2: comes to the industry. You know, there are so many
Speaker 2: Australians in Hollywood and in the UK. Inded, there are
Speaker 2: Australians who don't even know are Australian. You know, there
Speaker 2: are actually and people that never really did any work
Speaker 2: in Australia that went straight to Hollywood and now have
Speaker 2: successful careers and you probably wouldn't even realize because you've
Speaker 2: only ever heard them speaking with an American accent. Even when
Speaker 2: I was working at the ABC and I was traveling
Speaker 2: to LA to kind of try and create co productions
Speaker 2: and find partners so I can try and leverage the
Speaker 2: ABC budgets further, any agent you spoke to, anywhere you went,
Speaker 2: any buyer you went to, they were all very well
Speaker 2: aware of the Australian extraordinary talent that was coming out
Speaker 2: of here. I mean, I think if you look at
Speaker 2: the top actors in the world, given our population size,
Speaker 2: we are disproportionately represented so I think in terms of
Speaker 2: Australians going out into the world and taking their talent
Speaker 2: to the world, that's kind of that's always been there.
Speaker 2: But I think it is really important that we are
Speaker 2: telling Australians stories as well and that they are traveling.
Speaker 2: And I think so when you see shows like Mystery
Speaker 2: Road for example, which is you got a very uniquely
Speaker 2: distinctive Australian flavor, it's important to tell them that sort
Speaker 2: of story or Stateless even which you know is a
Speaker 2: very global story but actually something that's very particular to
Speaker 2: Australia's you know, engine program at the time. And for
Speaker 2: that to end up globally on Netflix, I think is
Speaker 2: a wonderful thing because it's helping to kind of inform
Speaker 2: the world about who we are and what we do
Speaker 2: for better or worse. You know, it can't all be happy.
Speaker 2: But I think when you if you're doing something more generic,
Speaker 2: if you're doing sort of like an Australian procedural, you're
Speaker 2: always going to have a much harder time trying to
Speaker 2: cut through and get any kind of recognition internationally. Because
Speaker 2: you look at the US, for example, they do procedurals
Speaker 2: so well. They do them by you in huge numbers,
Speaker 2: shows like Law and Order and SPU and those kinds
Speaker 2: of things. If we were making those sorts of shows,
Speaker 2: they're going to have a lot of trouble breaking out,
Speaker 2: I think outside. So it's only really those uniquely Australian
Speaker 2: stories that are going to have the best chance of traveling.
Speaker 2: So in a way, they kind of one creates the other.
Speaker 2: It's kind of like an infinite loop.
Speaker 1: Really has our storytelling changed in the last few years?
Speaker 1: Are we sort of turning a corner with Australian storytelling?
Speaker 1: And the reason why I asked that is that for
Speaker 1: a while people said we only could tell stories that
Speaker 1: were quite bleak about our country.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think our storytelling
Speaker 2: has definitely become a lot more sophisticated, and I think
Speaker 2: that we definitely can compete with the best of television
Speaker 2: being made anywhere in the world. We've always been really
Speaker 2: great at comedy, but I think sometimes our comedy is
Speaker 2: so Australian that maybe that doesn't travel so well overseas,
Speaker 2: so that ends up being like a very domestic play.
Speaker 2: And I take your point about dramas often being quite
Speaker 2: sort of heavy and serious, but I do think there
Speaker 2: is much more diversity out there now in terms of
Speaker 2: what's being made and what people are looking for. And
Speaker 2: I think there's also been a shift though to in
Speaker 2: what people's expectations are of a drama. And I think,
Speaker 2: you know, it used to be, you know, a half
Speaker 2: hour is a comedy, and now it is a drama drama.
Speaker 2: And I think now you have half hours that are
Speaker 2: dramas and hours that are light sort of drama das.
Speaker 2: And I think there's much more nuance in those categories
Speaker 2: and what audiences expect from those categories. And I think
Speaker 2: you can see that playing out and the sorts of
Speaker 2: shows that are coming through.
Speaker 1: Kate Blanchette said that, you know, drama needs to be
Speaker 1: challenging and impolite, which I loved that heading. I thought
Speaker 1: it was amazing. What did you learn from working alongside
Speaker 1: someone like Kate Blanchette.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. I mean, Kate is just ferociously intelligent
Speaker 2: and really does have an incredible social awareness and social conscience.
Speaker 2: And I think everything that she does, you know, from
Speaker 2: my observation, everything that she does, and certainly working with her,
Speaker 2: is done with such purpose and intent. There's nothing frivolous.
Speaker 2: About the decision making, you know, all the way through
Speaker 2: something like stateless. And she was absolutely tireless on that
Speaker 2: show in terms of casting and the creative and you
Speaker 2: know her, she was determined to make that show as
Speaker 2: good as it possibly could be, and you know, really
Speaker 2: backed it up. So I think, what did I learn?
Speaker 2: I mean, well, apart from being in the presence of greatness,
Speaker 2: I mean getting to watch her perform and being on set,
Speaker 2: particularly when she did that big song and dance number
Speaker 2: early on in the series, was an incredible gift. But
Speaker 2: also I think just seeing just that tireless pursuit of excellence,
Speaker 2: never accepting second best, never accepting no, and just always
Speaker 2: pushing to get the best possible outcome. And Kate and
Speaker 2: I mean everyone on that show indeed did it. It
Speaker 2: wasn't certainly it wasn't just her, but certainly that is
Speaker 2: something that you know, I witnessed.
Speaker 1: That show was just so amazing. And you guys really
Speaker 1: know how to sort of present a balanced diet of content.
Speaker 1: You know, do you enjoy the Real Housewives of Melbourne
Speaker 1: as much as making these other programs.
Speaker 2: Look, I'm not ashamed to admit I am a fan
Speaker 2: of the Housewives franchise. I love The Real Housewives and Melbourne.
Speaker 2: We're in the middle of production at the moment with
Speaker 2: a fabulous cast of new faces and some of the
Speaker 2: original cast members as well. But I think when I
Speaker 2: came into the job, because I'm a bit of a
Speaker 2: squat about these things, and I knew that Housewives was
Speaker 2: one of ours, I hadn't before, but I did actually
Speaker 2: start watching a lot of the International Housewives, So I
Speaker 2: mean Beverly Hills, New York, Atlanta. I've I've seen more
Speaker 2: than that than I should probably admit. And I'm a fan.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's not you know, people can
Speaker 2: be people can sort of go, oh god, that reality
Speaker 2: sort of trash or you know, people people can be
Speaker 2: quite negative about it. But actually those shows are wildly
Speaker 2: successful and connect with audiences and provide form of escapism
Speaker 2: or entertainment that you know, sometimes that is just in
Speaker 2: a mixed diet of whatever TV you want to watch.
Speaker 2: Everything can't be stateless, and sometimes watching a couple of
Speaker 2: housewives go at it over something like you know, trivial
Speaker 2: is the best way to turn off. And those shows
Speaker 2: are incredibly well made, and you know, there are incredibly
Speaker 2: skilled producers who are managing those They're not easy to
Speaker 2: make because in a way, and you know, and sometimes
Speaker 2: people think, oh, it's all fake and it's scripted, and
Speaker 2: it's not the case. You know, people are experiencing things
Speaker 2: in real time and having real reactions. And I have
Speaker 2: a lot of respect for housewives. I think. I think
Speaker 2: it's an incredible and I got a wildly successful franchise.
Speaker 2: I can't wait for Melbourne this year. I think it's
Speaker 2: it's shaping up to be a cracker of a series,
Speaker 2: this one.
Speaker 1: Who is creating all the drama in this new series
Speaker 1: that's happening at the moment.
Speaker 2: Look, I mean I think, well, we're early, we're early
Speaker 2: days in the process. But I mean I think if
Speaker 2: you imagine that we've got you know, Gamble and Janet
Speaker 2: and Jackie from the sort of original cast, and then
Speaker 2: you've got a whole new group that creates a completely
Speaker 2: new dynamic. And as people are kind of working out
Speaker 2: who's who and who's friends with who and relationships are
Speaker 2: being forged, so it will certainly be a lot of drama.
Speaker 1: Again, if you were a housewife, what sort of personality
Speaker 1: type would you be?
Speaker 2: Good? Agree, Maybe I'd be a Bethny frank maybe a
Speaker 2: slightly more reserved Bethany Frankle.
Speaker 1: Well, that's the reason why that show is so popular
Speaker 1: is because we all can relate in some way. There's
Speaker 1: usually a character type or somebody that you know, you
Speaker 1: can resonate with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean Bethany is somebody who I mean,
Speaker 2: I think wildly entertaining, because certainly somebody who is just
Speaker 2: relentlessly honest, very forcefully so sometimes but you know, man,
Speaker 2: did she over the years that she was in New York,
Speaker 2: did she deliver the goods?
Speaker 1: So Confessions of an Oversharer it's basically the title of
Speaker 1: her book.
Speaker 2: She auditioned for Wheelhousewives of New York, spent you know,
Speaker 2: seven grand on an audition tape or something, and has
Speaker 2: now leveraged her role on that show to like one
Speaker 2: hundred million dollar empire that she now sits on top of.
Speaker 2: So you can't see I mean that is that is
Speaker 2: that is a woman who knows what she's doing.
Speaker 1: There's a rumor going around this week about celebrity goggle Box.
Speaker 1: It's happening, so that's not a rumor, but that Lydia
Speaker 1: and Jackie have both been asked to do Celebrity goggle
Speaker 1: Box and I want to be great. No, Well, they're
Speaker 1: only going to pick one of them apparently, So who
Speaker 1: would be better on Celebrity goggle Box, Lydia or Jackie.
Speaker 2: Well, Jackie's doing Housewives of Melbourne at the moment, so
Speaker 2: I'd love to see Lydia do it. So I think
Speaker 2: I think she'd be great on a celebrity goggle Box.
Speaker 3: Don't suck on your own fucking head.
Speaker 2: Lydia had a lot of great moments over the years.
Speaker 2: I think one of my favorites was what's a great line?
Speaker 2: When Gina's cutting her off or something and she says,
Speaker 2: can I please Spock?
Speaker 1: Why is it that I'm being blamed that I'm being
Speaker 1: say you've actually said.
Speaker 2: The worst Spock? Spock? Can I speak?
Speaker 3: I don't know, can you Spock?
Speaker 1: Do you think we'd ever see any of the original
Speaker 1: people coming back? You know, there's been Pettiflower, Andrea Moss, Susie.
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to think of all the people that
Speaker 1: have now gone. Do you think that any of these
Speaker 1: people ever come back in a friend role?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, I think it's always possible. I mean, I
Speaker 2: think you're always open minded about you know what's the
Speaker 2: right makeup and what's the right dynamic, and it just
Speaker 2: comes down to timing and who else is around and
Speaker 2: what you're looking to do with the show and what
Speaker 2: sort of direction you're intending to go in. But I mean,
Speaker 2: I think if you look at all of the international franchises,
Speaker 2: some of which are in you know, season thirteen and beyond,
Speaker 2: there is a bit of that kind of fluidity if
Speaker 2: people might step out for a few years, come back
Speaker 2: or come back as a friend, and so yeah, we'd
Speaker 2: certainly be open to that. As to who specifically, I
Speaker 2: don't know, you'd have to sort of go through. There's
Speaker 2: been I mean, there's been some interesting characters over the years,
Speaker 2: but sure, you know, I think you never say never.
Speaker 1: Now, I want to pitch an idea to you before
Speaker 1: you go, because I enjoy the show overseas, which is
Speaker 1: the only Way is Essex, and I think that there's
Speaker 1: a real market for the Only Way is Melbourne, because
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be nice to see young people on screen
Speaker 1: in this sort of semi scripted reality format similar to
Speaker 1: what Essex is. You know, it's real, but some of
Speaker 1: it's set up for your entertainment. Do you think that
Speaker 1: there is a possibility for the Way is Melbourne.
Speaker 2: Look, I mean I'm a fan of Taui as well,
Speaker 2: and I look, to be honest with you, I hadn't
Speaker 2: really thought about that before, but yeah, I think that's
Speaker 2: a good idea, Ben, good pitch, Definitely, that's I mean,
Speaker 2: I think I think the only Way is Essex is
Speaker 2: a really fun show. And again there's been some fantastic
Speaker 2: characters that have come out of that and become quite
Speaker 2: well known celebrities, you know, people you know, fan favorites
Speaker 2: in the UK. And yeah, I take your point about
Speaker 2: that kind of depiction of younger people and opportunities for
Speaker 2: younger people to be in that space. So yeah, good idea.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, we need to bring younger audiences
Speaker 1: back into the fold, and there is a lot more
Speaker 1: content being made for probably a little bit older audiences.
Speaker 1: It would be good to tell some story about because
Speaker 1: I'm forty and I find myself learning so much from
Speaker 1: younger people that's so different to who I was at
Speaker 1: that age. Yeah, so I'm fascinated in my own right
Speaker 1: of wanting to know what's going on.
Speaker 2: It's too I mean, I think I think the really
Speaker 2: younger audiences. A lot of them don't watch television at all.
Speaker 2: And when I say provision, I don't mean kind of
Speaker 2: literally television on a wall, because not many people are
Speaker 2: doing that these days, But I mean they don't watch
Speaker 2: that kind of traditional drama. You know, They're watching YouTube
Speaker 2: and shorts and TikTok. And I think it's an ongoing
Speaker 2: kind of challenge for the industry is how do you
Speaker 2: really connect? And I think when you crack it and
Speaker 2: you make the right show, the audience is there. And
Speaker 2: I think, you know, the americud market probably does it
Speaker 2: a bit more successfully than we do. At the moment,
Speaker 2: there's not a huge amount of programming coming out of
Speaker 2: Australia that I think is targeting that generation kids, yes, teens, yes,
Speaker 2: but you know, we don't do a lot of ya
Speaker 2: and we don't do a lot that's kind of speaking
Speaker 2: to them. So yeah, I think there's definitely work to
Speaker 2: be done. But they're a tough market to crack at
Speaker 2: the moment because they've just got so many other options
Speaker 2: for how they spend their screen time, including making their
Speaker 2: own you know, like a lot of them are the
Speaker 2: start their own they're the stars of their own kind
Speaker 2: of screen creations, So you know, how do you get
Speaker 2: Kate Planchette to keep to compete with someone who's watching themselves.
Speaker 1: The last question I have for you is, what is
Speaker 1: a funny story from behind the scenes at Matchbox? You know,
Speaker 1: something of a funny anecdote or a moment, you know
Speaker 1: when you tell people what it is that you do for.
Speaker 2: Work for us. I mean, all of that goal probably
Speaker 2: comes in the making of Housewives, probably too many to
Speaker 2: even mention. Some things then that I could not even
Speaker 2: repeat on this podcast because of the way the show
Speaker 2: is made and all reality in fact. So you'd see
Speaker 2: this if you watch Kardashians or any of those shows
Speaker 2: where you're watching you know, sequences of life or you
Speaker 2: know things that have played out, and then you have
Speaker 2: somebody's direct to camera interview where they're talking as though
Speaker 2: it's in real time, but obviously that's filmed at a
Speaker 2: different time, and so often you would need to show
Speaker 2: you have to show Pete to remind them of like
Speaker 2: four months ago this moment was happening, what we're thinking,
Speaker 2: So then somebody is having to speak to that in
Speaker 2: their direct camera. But what the Housewives franchise globally have done,
Speaker 2: is that they generally save up showing everybody the episodes
Speaker 2: until just before the reunion, so that actually what happens
Speaker 2: is those reunion specials, which you know for Beverly Hills
Speaker 2: and New York Rum, you know, they're three partners, and
Speaker 2: that's because all of the women watched the whole show
Speaker 2: for the first time just before, so suddenly they see
Speaker 2: what everybody's been saying in their direct cameras or things
Speaker 2: that maybe they were saying behind their back. So you
Speaker 2: said one thing to me here and then you said
Speaker 2: something else there, and so obviously what that does is
Speaker 2: mean that by the time everyone's sitting, you know, in
Speaker 2: they're dressed in the nines at the reunion, there are
Speaker 2: some raw wounds that maybe have been reopened, and so
Speaker 2: it's an opportunity for everybody that's thrashed that out there.
Speaker 1: Insignificant ass hair is what comes to mind when I
Speaker 1: think about Real Housewives of Melbourne reunion. You are not the.
Speaker 3: Same way even Curio insignificant ass here.
Speaker 1: That's when you're like, I have come so far and
Speaker 1: I am the head of Matchbox and some of the
Speaker 1: content I may involve Cape Blanchette saying some magnificent words,
Speaker 1: and then I have Genieliano saying insignificant ass here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but we're a broad church at match Box, and
Speaker 2: I'm proud of all that.
Speaker 1: Well, I just want to say thank you so much
Speaker 1: for making some of the best Australian content I've ever
Speaker 1: seen and working on that. I think it's important for
Speaker 1: people to realize that you might see the actors, but
Speaker 1: it's about the people that get these stories made, the writers,
Speaker 1: the cameraman, everybody that works on it. It's so collaborative.
Speaker 1: And you have done a fantastic job since you've been
Speaker 1: at Matchbox, bringing in some international dollars and adding to
Speaker 1: the conversation. And I want to say thank you for that.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Ben, It's been a real pleasure.