1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families podcast with Doctor Justinkilson, where 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: Luke and Susie our husband and wife radio team with 3 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: three young boys. This is the podcast for the time 4 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: poor parent who just wants some answers now. 5 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 2: Our next guest is a doctor of psychology who writes 6 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 2: for The New York Times and is featured in Sydney's 7 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 2: Daily Telegraph, The Project, The Today Show, and of course 8 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 2: the Look At Susie Radio show. A closet middle aged 9 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: man in lycra and our family and parenting expert from 10 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 2: Happy Families dot com dot Are you please welcome father 11 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 2: of six daughters, Dr Justin Kilson. 12 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 3: I always, I always get scared when I look over 13 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 3: at Dr Justin Wilson is one of these segments about 14 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 3: to start, and he's got the smuggest look on his 15 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,159 Speaker 3: face because I know that there is jokes on. 16 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 4: The hashtag dad. 17 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 5: Joke I spotted in our Bino Dalmatian the other day. 18 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 5: There's the least I could have done for him, I spotted. 19 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: I started getting that joke halfway through. 20 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 2: It spot I took about four seconds afterwards. But you 21 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 2: know how we we got there. 22 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 5: It's terrible, isn't it now? 23 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 2: I mentioned about how great it is to be able 24 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 2: to imment doctor Justin Coilson's strategies because it was a 25 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 2: while ago he talked about family meetings. We've recently introduced 26 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 2: family meetings into our house, doctor Justin, and it has 27 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 2: changed everything. 28 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: Changed out, yeah, everything, it's been brilliant. 29 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 2: It's often it's fifteen minutes a day. We've got it 30 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 2: set us as a set time every single day. But 31 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 2: you know what it's done is changed behavior at night. 32 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:34,119 Speaker 2: It's changed behavior in the afternoon. It's changed everything because. 33 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 5: What are you doing? 34 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 2: Because we just sit there and we just go, here's 35 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 2: some of the things that maybe you know a kind 36 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 2: of going well for us. Here's some things that maybe 37 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 2: we need to sort of adjust. So we just before 38 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,559 Speaker 2: anything gets out of control with whether they're helping, whether their. 39 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 4: Rooms are good. 40 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 2: Occasionally we've gone okay, so we know that our rooms 41 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 2: are messy. So at the end of our family meeting, 42 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 2: we're going one song clean up of our bedroom. 43 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:57,919 Speaker 1: Do you know the big thing? One of our sons 44 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: came to us in the family meeting and he said, 45 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: when are we going to have our birthday party? And 46 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: we'd forgotten about the birthday. 47 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 4: Party because chance to raise issues. 48 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: Birthdays are in May, but we moved in May, and 49 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: so we said we'll do a late one. But he 50 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: remembered now week after Christmas, that's outside of family meetings. 51 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: We would have kept putting that conversation off and never 52 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: done anything. But within that context we were ordered to go, Okay, 53 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: well let's have a look at it, and we've created 54 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 1: an eight and a half birthday. 55 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:23,959 Speaker 2: Hilarious thing about it, justin is because when they said 56 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 2: our birthday party, and Susy goes, oh, you're right, maybe 57 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 2: we could do something combined with Christmas, and the look 58 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 2: on one of the eight year old's face was no, no, 59 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: not fair, And I said, okay, so maybe we're having 60 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 2: them separate. 61 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: They want presents. 62 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 5: What I love though about the whole family meeting thing 63 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 5: is it doesn't have to be a big deal. You 64 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 5: sit down and have a ten minute chat, you talk 65 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 5: about the good stuff. You know, it's not we're going 66 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 5: to discipon you, and it's just a conversation. 67 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: It's great, it's really good. We're all informed, all on 68 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: the same page. 69 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 2: It's working so and it's just revolutionized the cleaning and 70 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 2: the organization of the house because if anything starts to 71 00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 2: not quite be right. We just have a casual chat 72 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 2: in the morning. It never explodes. 73 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 3: Brilliant. 74 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: So good. Now we've got to get to our question 75 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: of the day, do it. I love that recently we've 76 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: had quite a few questions come through from Dad's and 77 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: this is another one. Michael sent it through. What limits 78 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,799 Speaker 1: or techniques have parents put in place to incentivize kids 79 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: to limit their screen time? 80 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 5: They put them all in place, and none of them worked. 81 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: Getting outside exercises, any good behavior we want to see 82 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: in our children, how do we incentivize it? 83 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 5: Okay, well, well, incentives only work in the short term. 84 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 5: I was going to say they don't work, but they do. 85 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 5: If you if you dangle a big enough carrot, somebody 86 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 5: is going to take a bite. They're going to go 87 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 5: for it. Incentives do work, but they really are a 88 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 5: short term fixed They're not the kind of thing that 89 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 5: changes the way a person sees the world. And this 90 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 5: kind of makes sense. Right If I said to my children, 91 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 5: I'll give you five bucks to tidy up your room, 92 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 5: it works for that. It works for that time, and 93 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 5: usually when you don't if they want five dollars. 94 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, the worst thing is they go no, thank you, Yeah, no, 95 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 4: I need more. 96 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 5: And sometimes you go and check the room and you 97 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 5: think to yourself, oh, my goodness, they did not do 98 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 5: this all. They've stuffed the clothing under the bed and 99 00:03:58,840 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 5: they've just made an. 100 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: Absolutely Sometimes sometimes yeah yeah. 101 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 5: So incentives tend to lead to people taking shortcuts. It 102 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 5: doesn't drive any of the desira desirable behavior over the 103 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 5: long term. There are better things to do, and I 104 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 5: think the best thing for us to do is to 105 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 5: tap into what to University of Rochester researchers at DC 106 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 5: and rich Ryan have talked about for about thirty years now. 107 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 5: They've identified these three basic psychological needs. They say, if 108 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 5: you meet these three basic psychological needs, you can help 109 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 5: people to have an intrinsic desire to do things rather 110 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 5: than you know, parents being the police and saying you 111 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 5: need to get outside and jump on the trampoline for 112 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 5: fifteen minutes, because the kids will watch the clock while 113 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 5: they're doing it. And so these basic psychological needs. First 114 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 5: of all, you want to make it relational. Secondly, you 115 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 5: want to make it competence building. And third you want 116 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 5: to make it something that they feel like they have 117 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 5: a sense of choice and volition for This is actually 118 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 5: why screens are so enticing, by the way, because on 119 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 5: their screens, they're with their friends. On their screens, they're 120 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 5: developing competence and mastery, whether they're social media ring or 121 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 5: whether they're gaming, and they feel like they can do 122 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 5: whatever they want. They've got this incredible freedom, autonomy, and volition. 123 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 5: Our goal, therefore, is to find things that are off 124 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 5: screens that help them to feel connected to others, that 125 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 5: help them feel like they're improving and getting better at things, 126 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 5: and that help them to have a sense that I'm 127 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 5: freely choosing this because it brings me joys, it's purposeful, 128 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 5: it's meaningful, it's helping me to develop as a person. 129 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: This has just made sense about child eldest son's recent 130 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: cubing addiction. Like Rubik's cubing, it's it's building competence. He's 131 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 1: got friends who do the same thing he's competing, so 132 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: he's got measures to see that he's improving with it, 133 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: and he's got so much freedom with it as well. 134 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not just the son that's becoming obsessed with it. 135 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 5: On your face, it makes so much as he puts 136 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 5: the cube down. 137 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 4: There, thinking, gosh, I don't have my cube close. 138 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 1: To me, so can I ask? Then, in all of 139 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: these things, whether it's exercise or screen time, how much 140 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: does parental example play a part? 141 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 5: Well, it certainly is important. If children see us consistently 142 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 5: in front of screens, they're going to think that that's 143 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 5: the norm. You know. The culture, as we talked about 144 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 5: in a recent conversation, culture is the collective behavior of 145 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 5: the group. So if the group is sitting in front 146 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 5: of screens all day and all night, then that's what 147 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 5: those who are entering the group or growing into the 148 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 5: group will think is normal. It's critical that and it's 149 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 5: quite a bit of research that shows that parents who, 150 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 5: for example, exercise, have children who are more likely to exercise, 151 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 5: or parents who do this you know, the children. If monkey, 152 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 5: see monkey, do, that's what. 153 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 4: The kids do. 154 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: If you serve, they're likely to serve. 155 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:31,799 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that's right. And part of that is because 156 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 5: we try to give our children the same positive experiences 157 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 5: that we've enjoyed ourselves. But part of it dolls is 158 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 5: and part of its resource oriented, but partly it's just 159 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 5: the kids see that that's what you do, and so 160 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 5: that's what you do. 161 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a valuable thing. For us to wrap our 162 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 2: head around, because it feels like it's one of those 163 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 2: things that no matter how close to getting it we 164 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 2: think we are, that then the next day comes around 165 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 2: and we realize we're a long long way off. I 166 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,559 Speaker 2: would imagine this is a dynamic challenge that what works 167 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 2: one week may not necessarily but if we're constantly focused. 168 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 2: And this is why the principles rather than the individual strategies. 169 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. There's a couple of other things that you 170 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 5: can do as well. In addition to helping your children 171 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 5: to be engaged in activities that are going to build relationships, 172 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 5: help them to feel like they're developing and doing something 173 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 5: purposeful in their lives, we can do a couple of 174 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 5: other things to make it less convenient to use those devices. So, 175 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 5: for example, in our home, we've put the television in 176 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 5: the room furthest from everyone and everything. It's a pain 177 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 5: to go to the media room. It's literally it's the 178 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 5: rumpest room right out of the back, and nobody actually 179 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 5: wants to be there because you've got to go downstairs, 180 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 5: and you've got to go down the dark corridor, and 181 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 5: then you know you're kind of away from everyone and everything. 182 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 5: Nobody will hear you scream in the ropers room, and 183 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 5: so that's the only television that we have in the house. 184 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 5: We don't have screens unless they're being used in public areas. 185 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 5: The kids don't take their screens into their rooms. We 186 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 5: have a whole list of different things that make access 187 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 5: to those devices a little bit more friction full rather 188 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 5: than friction free. You've got to work hard. We don't 189 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 5: make it easy, which means that the children find other 190 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 5: things to do because other things are easier. We move 191 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 5: the trampoline so that the children can literally jump off 192 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 5: our back deck and be on the trampoline, and we've 193 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 5: been able to do it in a way that's completely 194 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 5: safe for them, so they're not sort of jumping six 195 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 5: feet or anything like that. And so the trampoline has 196 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 5: actually become the go to place because it's literally three 197 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 5: steps from the back deck and they're on the tramp 198 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 5: It's about creating an environment that invites and pulls our 199 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 5: children towards activities other than screens. 200 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 4: So good as we wrap up. 201 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 2: Just on aside, one of the things that we had 202 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 2: done in the past before we spent as much time 203 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 2: with you is to use the lack of access to 204 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 2: the screens as a punishment in a sense, right to say, well, 205 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 2: then your band from YouTube for the day. 206 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 5: Makes them want it more. 207 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 2: But our kids are incredible, and this is not good management. 208 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 2: I don't think this is just pure good luck and 209 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 2: who they are that they honored the band and didn't 210 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 2: try and sneak their way around it, and and so 211 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 2: like they would come back the next day and go, is. 212 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:06,839 Speaker 4: Am I allowed to use it? Now? Am I allowed 213 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 4: to get back on? 214 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 2: And we'd give them permission so they would just they 215 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 2: would honor this almost every time. The problem was one 216 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 2: time and I was a little bit stressed, and I 217 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 2: knew I had to. I knew I was going to 218 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 2: ban them from YouTube and from using any device. All 219 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 2: devices gone. I didn't And they said how long for? 220 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 2: And I said until further notice? Oh, I forgot about it. 221 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 2: And it was about a week later one of my 222 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 2: sons came and said, can I use devices yet? 223 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 4: He's not been using it for a week and I've 224 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 4: even forgotten about it. And he just didn't use them 225 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 4: for a week. And it came like it's now a 226 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 4: leaftime went okay, now. 227 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 2: I know that you wouldn't approve its story. 228 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: Justin Kilson, thanks so much for your time. To find 229 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 1: out more info on all of Justin's books, podcasts, and programs, 230 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: you can go online to Happy Families dot com dot au. 231 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: And to find out how to have Justin come and 232 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: speak at your school, organization or event, go to Justin 233 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: Coulson dot com