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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: wants answers.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson. Welcome to the Happy

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Speaker 3: Families Podcast. Today a conversation on a topic that seems

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Speaker 3: to generate endless chatter, endless clicks, and endless questions and controversy. However,

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Speaker 3: I'm speaking to somebody who knows more about it than

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Speaker 3: just about anybody in Australia, if not on the planet.

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Speaker 3: Joe Ryan was a registered nurse for over twenty years,

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Speaker 3: with much of that time spent working in pediatric hospitals.

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Speaker 2: She's also worked as full.

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Speaker 3: Time nanny for many years, both in Australia and overseas.

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Speaker 3: And she knows babies. She knows kids going to sleep,

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Speaker 3: she knows about the stress and anxiety that's part of

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Speaker 3: early parenting. In twenty seventeen, Joe completed twelve months of

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Speaker 3: infant mental health through Melbourne University in the Royal Children's

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Speaker 3: Hospital in Melbourne. And Joe is the founder of Baby Bliss.

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Speaker 3: So we're going to talk sleep, babies, sleep training. I

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Speaker 3: don't know if I should have said those two woods

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Speaker 3: side by side, but I did. And a whole lot

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Speaker 3: of other stuff about how we help kids get to bed,

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Speaker 3: how we help parents get enough sleep, especially when it's

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Speaker 3: two o'clock in the morning, the baby's crying and no

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Speaker 3: one knows what to do. Joe Ryan, so good to

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Speaker 3: have you on the Happy Families podcast. Thanks for joining me.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. Nice to see you.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Joe, let's start with the straight up in your

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Speaker 3: face question that I know makes people cringe, but we've

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Speaker 3: got to get.

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Speaker 2: This out straight away.

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Speaker 3: What is baby sleep training?

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Speaker 1: Well, look, I think baby sleep training is a term

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Speaker 1: that's bandied around and used for a lot of different things.

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Speaker 1: I mean, in my mind, sleep training is where you

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Speaker 1: sort of override babies. You're trying to override a baby's

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Speaker 1: natural kind of I guess sleep needs or sleepabilities, and

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Speaker 1: you kind of want to train them to fit into

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Speaker 1: a bit of a cookie cutter or you know, some

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Speaker 1: a pattern or a routine in that suits sort of

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Speaker 1: what we think babies should be doing. But you know,

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Speaker 1: people do apply that term to just generally, you know,

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Speaker 1: a lot of just other stuff. But I think that's

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Speaker 1: kind of what in it. In my mind, I would

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Speaker 1: say sleep training.

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Speaker 3: Was okay, So we won't name names here. It's really

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Speaker 3: important that we're sensitive and appropriate in our professionalism. But

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Speaker 3: what I will say is there are a handful of

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Speaker 3: people globally who have made significant money advocating for baby

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Speaker 3: sleep training. They've written books, creative programs about why you

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Speaker 3: need to make sure that the kids are on this

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Speaker 3: particular routine and following this particular pattern. I was just

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Speaker 3: approached by somebody a couple of weeks ago who was

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Speaker 3: a huge advocate of baby sleep training, who wanted to

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Speaker 3: be on the podcast, And it doesn't fit with my approach,

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Speaker 3: my philosophy, what I think is best for babies, or

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Speaker 3: best for parents for that matter, in the main. I

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Speaker 3: know there may be some special circumstances where it's an

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Speaker 3: option that has to be considered. But can you tell

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Speaker 3: me why do so many people advocate for this structured

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Speaker 3: approach to baby must sleep? When I say baby.

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Speaker 1: Must sleep, I think that you know, as adults, we

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Speaker 1: want the baby to fit into our world, and you know,

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Speaker 1: we kind of you know, I mean, we have a

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Speaker 1: lot of ex we have a lot of pressures on

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Speaker 1: particularly mothers these days, you know, of wanting to you know,

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Speaker 1: either go back to work, they need to go, they

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Speaker 1: need to go back to work, so they feel that

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Speaker 1: they need the baby to be sleeping well in order

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Speaker 1: for them to be able to function properly. There's a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of external pressures on it. And then there's

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Speaker 1: also that kind of you know, oh, well, their baby's

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Speaker 1: sleeping through the night, so surely mine must be able

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Speaker 1: to do that too, So maybe unreal expectation.

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Speaker 3: When I think about baby sleep training, I'm reminded, and

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Speaker 3: this is a this is an extreme example, I know,

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Speaker 3: but I'm reminded of a parent who basically told me

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Speaker 3: I brought my child home and I knew that at

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Speaker 3: the end of week one that we needed to sleep

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Speaker 3: train or it was not going to work. And so

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Speaker 3: they literally just let their baby vomit, scream, whatever, And

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Speaker 3: when in the next day, after the baby had cried

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Speaker 3: all night and within two or three nights, she said

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Speaker 3: it never happened again. The baby just went to sleep.

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Speaker 3: The sleep training worked. I know that that's an extreme example,

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Speaker 3: but when you hear that, what's your reaction?

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Speaker 1: Oh, it makes me really really sad, because babies need,

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Speaker 1: they need to be held when they're upset, and they

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Speaker 1: need to have attention, They need someone to comfort them

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Speaker 1: and support them. You know, babies cry, that's what we know.

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Speaker 1: That's their way of communicating, you know, probably one of

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Speaker 1: their only ways of communicating when they're tiny. You know

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Speaker 1: that they want something or there's something that they need,

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Speaker 1: and so to kind of ignore that when they're young, well,

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Speaker 1: at any age, really is just it. It makes me

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Speaker 1: very sad, I think, Joe.

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Speaker 3: When we consider the idea of baby sleep training, a

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Speaker 3: lot of people will use the term crying it out

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Speaker 3: and similar words, similar names for those kinds of methods.

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Speaker 3: Are there any differences for parents who are not familiar

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Speaker 3: with this or who are trying to work out what

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Speaker 3: they're supposed to do? Is there a difference between sleep

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Speaker 3: training and crying it out or is it essentially just

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Speaker 3: a different take on the same concept.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's probably the same thing. I mean,

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Speaker 1: cry it out or can crying is sort of what

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Speaker 1: I would view as kind of the sleep training that

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Speaker 1: has been around for a long time now, that people

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Speaker 1: basically train their children to fall asleep, so they let

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Speaker 1: them cry for extended periods of time until basically the

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Speaker 1: child sort of cries themselves to sleep. That's the I

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Speaker 1: think it's essentially the same kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: In cultures other than ours, do we see this kind

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Speaker 3: of sleep training, not.

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Speaker 1: That I'm aware of. I think, you know, different cultures

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Speaker 1: have obviously different ideas, you know, tribal cultures, you know,

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Speaker 1: but they have more than often more than one caregiver.

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Speaker 1: More than one, you know, the obviously is the mother.

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Speaker 1: But in sort of tribal cultures or cultures where many

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Speaker 1: generations of one family might live in the same house,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's more than one caregiver. So I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't all fall to the mother or

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Speaker 1: the primary caregiver to provide that sort of support for

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Speaker 1: the child twenty four to seven, you know. So I

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Speaker 1: think that in a Western culture and the way that

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Speaker 1: our culture is, with women being much more isolated or

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Speaker 1: families being much more isolated from extended families, and women

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Speaker 1: having this pressure to you know, to go back to

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Speaker 1: work for whatever reason, you know that these kind of

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Speaker 1: ideas of getting your baby sleep trained early so that

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Speaker 1: they fit into that. You know. That's why it's sort

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Speaker 1: of growing and become a big thing.

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Speaker 3: We need to talk about solutions, which we will soon,

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Speaker 3: But first one more question on this sleep training cry

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Speaker 3: out controlled crying concept. If you were to list your

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Speaker 3: primary concerns Joe, and I know you've done this in

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Speaker 3: your book Baby Bliss, but for the sake of people

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Speaker 3: who are not familiar with your book and not familiar

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Speaker 3: with your work, what would you highlight as your maybe

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Speaker 3: your top three concerns with a sleep training approach to

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Speaker 3: baby nap time.

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Speaker 1: Well, the first one is attachment. You know, like babies

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Speaker 1: need to attack and they need to have a secure

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Speaker 1: attachment to their primary caregiver. And that happens very early

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Speaker 1: when babies are very very young, and if babies are

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Speaker 1: not intended to when they need someone to cry, that

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Speaker 1: attachment can become insecure because they feel like that there

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Speaker 1: isn't that primary person there to help them. So that's

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Speaker 1: a big thing. And attachment affects you for the rest

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Speaker 1: of your life, like you know, so you know, that

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Speaker 1: would be one of my main concerns. Also just understanding

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Speaker 1: you know, it's putting a lot of pressure on babies

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Speaker 1: and on parents to kind of make this baby do

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Speaker 1: something that in fact, their brain development is their brains

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Speaker 1: are not able to actually do it, you know, So

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of pressure and so it creates you know,

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Speaker 1: of course it does work for some babies because otherwise

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Speaker 1: people wouldn't keep doing it, But for a lot of

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Speaker 1: babies it doesn't, and it goes on and on, and

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Speaker 1: you have this protracted kind of period of crying and stress,

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Speaker 1: and you know everyone's unhappy. So I feel like it

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Speaker 1: puts a lot of pressure on the family unit and

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Speaker 1: on the child to do something they're not ready to do.

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Speaker 3: It's two am. The baby's beat awake three maybe four

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Speaker 3: times already. Mum is sleep deprived, exhausted, feels like she's

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Speaker 3: going to cry if she can muster the energy for

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Speaker 3: that because she's just so tired. What does she do

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Speaker 3: after the break? Joe Ryan, the founder of baby Bliss,

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Speaker 3: will give us some solutions to help any time for

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Speaker 3: exhausted over world mums with babies at once sleep. Starting

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Speaker 3: school is an exciting time, but it can also be

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Speaker 3: a little worrying. The Starting School Activity Book is a

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Speaker 3: printable workbook that will help prepare your little one for

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Speaker 3: the first thrilling school days and give you tips on

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Speaker 3: the best ways to talk about all the new things

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Speaker 3: they're going to experience. Perfect for kindie, preschool or big school,

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Speaker 3: and absolutely free online at Happy families dot com dot

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Speaker 3: a you. It's The Happy Family's podcast, the podcast for

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Speaker 3: the type or parent who just wants answers Now. Joe

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Speaker 3: Ryan from Baby Bliss joins me for this conversation.

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Speaker 2: Joe some years ago. I mean, Kylie and.

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Speaker 3: I have six daughters, and it's been a number of

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Speaker 3: years since we've had to deal with kids not sleeping

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Speaker 3: through the night. So I guess the first piece of

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Speaker 3: good news is they do grow out of it, like

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Speaker 3: eventually our eight year old, she's slept all night now

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Speaker 3: for a number of years, and we're doing Okay, you

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Speaker 3: do get through it, but it's exhausting when you're going

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Speaker 3: through it. I remember, before we met you, before we

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Speaker 3: knew who you were, before we discovered your book, we

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Speaker 3: had our first couple of kids, and Kylie and I

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Speaker 3: both hated the concept of sleep training or controlled crying

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Speaker 3: or crying it out, whatever you want to call it.

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Speaker 3: But we were exhausted and we were lost, and we

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Speaker 3: were afraid that we were going to yell at our

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Speaker 3: baby or hurt our baby, or shake our baby, or

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Speaker 3: do something that demanded that the baby go to sleep.

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Speaker 3: And if we could just yell at her enough, she

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Speaker 3: would understand that it was time to go to sleep.

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Speaker 3: And I remember we got to a point where Kylie said,

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Speaker 3: I don't want to do this thing, but I just

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Speaker 3: we need to do it. And we put the baby down,

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Speaker 3: and we were in the room next door as she

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Speaker 3: screamed and screamed and screamed and screamed and screamed and

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Speaker 3: screamed until I got so bad.

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Speaker 2: That Kylie left the house.

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Speaker 3: She went and sat in the car out on the

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Speaker 3: street as the baby screaming, and she said, even in

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Speaker 3: the car with the windows up, she could still faintly

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Speaker 3: hear the baby crying.

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Speaker 2: And it tore my heart out. It absolutely crushed Kylie.

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Speaker 2: And yet this is the kind of I know that.

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Speaker 3: Again, it's not precisely what some of the sleep training

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Speaker 3: books and manuals will tell you to do, but essentially

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Speaker 3: there's variations of different ways of letting the baby cry,

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Speaker 3: going back, letting the baby cry, going back with extending

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Speaker 3: the time period, etc. Whatever it might be. You don't

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Speaker 3: advocate for that, nor do I as a result of

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Speaker 3: what I've learned from you. If I'm that desperate parent, though,

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Speaker 3: if you could go back and talk to Kylie and

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Speaker 3: I on that night, when it's now two o'clock and

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Speaker 3: we are just shot.

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Speaker 2: What do you tell a parent to do?

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Speaker 3: How do they get through this challenging, exhausting time.

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Speaker 1: Look at his absolutely incredibly challenging, exhausting and as you say,

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Speaker 1: it does pass. But when you're in the crux of it,

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Speaker 1: when you're in the reeds, you're just like, this is

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Speaker 1: never going to end and this is the worst thing ever.

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Speaker 1: Look I, you know, I there are definitely things you

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Speaker 1: can do, and sometimes it's about just taking and we're

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Speaker 1: talking young babies here, so it's taking the baby to

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Speaker 1: bed with you. You know, maybe you know, just getting

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Speaker 1: some sleep, and then when you feel like you're a

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Speaker 1: bit more well rested, you can maybe put some more

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Speaker 1: I guess sort of techniques in place, like sitting with

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Speaker 1: the baby in its room, in the in the basinet

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Speaker 1: and soothing the baby, you know, rocking them till they're

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Speaker 1: sort of drowsy, then putting them down and patting them.

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Speaker 1: You know, there are a whole lot of different things

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Speaker 1: you can do. But when you're at that breaking point,

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Speaker 1: I would say to parents, take that baby with you

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Speaker 1: and sleep with it. You know, when they're tiny, sometimes

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Speaker 1: that's all they want. And then you know, just so

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Speaker 1: that you can recover rest, get some sleep, because in

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Speaker 1: the middle of the night, when you're both up and

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Speaker 1: you're both anxious, you know, there's often a bit of

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Speaker 1: friction too between you know, parents, and no one's able

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Speaker 1: to think clearly. And then you, when you feel a

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Speaker 1: bit more rested, you have a little plan, you know,

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Speaker 1: and you work out, like, what is going on with

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Speaker 1: this child? Do they need more sleep in the day?

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Speaker 1: You know, why are they not? You know, understanding what

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Speaker 1: sleep needs are for a baby is really important because

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people don't. You know, you

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Speaker 1: get turn home from a hospital with a new baby

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Speaker 1: and you're not quite sure what to do with this thing,

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Speaker 1: and no one tells you. You know, your baby won't

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Speaker 1: actually fall asleep when they're tired, that's that's not what happens.

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Speaker 1: You've got to put them to sleep. You've got to

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Speaker 1: assist them in the early days so that they start

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Speaker 1: to sleep, because if they're sleeping, they'll sleep better. If

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Speaker 1: they're not sleeping, they sleep worse, you know. So there's

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Speaker 1: a whole lot of stuff. So maybe do some reading

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Speaker 1: when you feel like it, and understanding what your baby's

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Speaker 1: sleep needs are and setting up really good sleep, hygiene,

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Speaker 1: around times, rituals, you know, having sort of triggers or

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Speaker 1: cues that your baby understands, like wrapping them, you know,

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Speaker 1: winding them down, making sure they've had a good feed.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I think there's a lot of information

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Speaker 1: that parents don't get that they could to just help

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Speaker 1: in those first couple of months where things are all

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Speaker 1: a bit crazy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so let me restate.

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Speaker 3: First off, there's a lot to be said for just

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Speaker 3: hopping into bed with the baby, or bring the baby

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Speaker 3: into your bed. It's probably going to work better than

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Speaker 3: you trying to squeeze into the cord or bascinet. And

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Speaker 3: you can get those basonets now that attached to the

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Speaker 3: side of your bed. They sort of fit in between

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Speaker 3: your bed base and your mattress, so your baby is

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Speaker 3: right there and you can do that thing that we

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Speaker 3: call co sleeping, which again, historically, I mean until the

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Speaker 3: last couple of hundred years, Joe, if I'm not mistaken,

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Speaker 3: that's how families slept. They all slept in the same

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Speaker 3: room together.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and co sleeping. When babies are tiny, often

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Speaker 1: they just want to be near near their parent, you know,

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Speaker 1: their mum or their their primary caregivers, So you know,

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Speaker 1: having the baby attached to the side of the bed

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Speaker 1: is a really good Those co sleepers that sit on

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Speaker 1: the side of the bed are really good, you know.

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Speaker 1: And if you have to, you know, obviously you need

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Speaker 1: to do it in a safe, safe way, and particularly

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Speaker 1: when you're tired, you know often you know you need

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Speaker 1: to make sure the baby is safe. But having the

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Speaker 1: baby close to you, you know, is one good first thing,

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Speaker 1: Like don't don't stop keep trying to put the baby

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Speaker 1: down in their own bed or in their own room

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Speaker 1: or away from you. Have them on you.

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Speaker 3: If I could get close, if I could go back

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Speaker 3: and have our six kids all over again, and I'm

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Speaker 3: not sure that I'm just kidding, I love them, I'm

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Speaker 3: creating I didn't really say that, But if I could

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Speaker 3: go back and have those six kids again, one of

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Speaker 3: the first things that I would do is make sure

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Speaker 3: that we had the baby at the very least in

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Speaker 3: the same room as us, And we did that with

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Speaker 3: the last couple of kids. But ideally we'd actually have

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Speaker 3: them as close to our bed or even on or

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Speaker 3: in our bed, or in one of those co sleeping

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Speaker 3: bassonette because having them close over time we've discovered just

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Speaker 3: how valuable that is, and we just we didn't have

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Speaker 3: the information early on, and gee, I wish we did.

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Speaker 2: But hearing the other things that you've highlighted, the.

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Speaker 3: Way that we can stay calm because emotions are contagious,

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Speaker 3: the way we can pick up additional information, work out

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Speaker 3: why the baby's not sleeping, learning to actually put the

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Speaker 3: baby to sleep, because babies do need to learn how

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Speaker 3: to go to sleep, and we have that role. All

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Speaker 3: of those things are more you talk about in your

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Speaker 3: book Baby Bliss. Is there anything else that we should

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Speaker 3: highlight for a desperate parent who just wants an answer

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Speaker 3: now and is looking for help before we wrap things up.

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Speaker 1: Joe, Look, I wish there was like a you know,

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Speaker 1: a magic bullet or you know, or a magic solution,

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Speaker 1: you know, to sort of say, if you do this,

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Speaker 1: it will work. But you've got to remember. I think

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Speaker 1: the keys remembering is that every baby is unique and

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Speaker 1: different and individual, and they have a whole lot of

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Speaker 1: things going on themselves. You know, Temperament is really important

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Speaker 1: when babies are tiny, and so trying to just understand

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Speaker 1: what your baby needs are rather than trying to force

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Speaker 1: them into doing something that you want them to do.

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Speaker 1: Watch your baby, you know, watch them. I always like

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Speaker 1: try to try to kind of decipher what those sort

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Speaker 1: of like how you know, how long they need to

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Speaker 1: be awake for before they actually you know, start to

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Speaker 1: the wheel start to fall off, and then you know,

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Speaker 1: try to get them to bed before that. You know,

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Speaker 1: So watching your baby because they are telling you, they're

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Speaker 1: trying to communicate to you all the time what they

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Speaker 1: need and so rather than just kind of saying, well

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Speaker 1: the book says this, or so and so says this,

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Speaker 1: try to get to know your child and have some

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Speaker 1: structure around, you know, getting them to bed in a

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Speaker 1: way that they will start to remember that, you know, wrapping, soothing, singing,

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Speaker 1: you know, having that kind of thing before bed is

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Speaker 1: really important because babies are clever, they learn stuff really quickly,

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Speaker 1: So consistency and repetition is really important.

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Speaker 2: To You're taking me back there and all the right ways.

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Speaker 2: I love it, Joe.

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Speaker 3: If people want more information about how they can get

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Speaker 3: their baby to soothe and sleep, where should.

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Speaker 2: They go to learn more about what you suggest?

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Speaker 1: So? I have a website baby bliss dot com dot au.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of information on there about sleep needs.

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Speaker 1: So how much baby sleep a baby needs, at what age.

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Speaker 1: It's obviously a broad thing, but you know that can

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Speaker 1: be a starting point if there's some information on settling

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Speaker 1: in the bed with the baby, like if ever you're

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Speaker 1: trying to settle your baby, you should always remain with

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Speaker 1: them all the time and soothing them. Babies cry, like

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Speaker 1: we said, but got to remember that as long as

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Speaker 1: someone's with them and comforting them, that that's important for them.

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Speaker 1: And also I have a book, Baby Bliss, which is

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Speaker 1: available on Amazon or iTunes or in your local bookshop if.

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Speaker 2: You ask for it, and I love that book. Hey, Joe,

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Speaker 2: thanks so much for joining me.

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Speaker 1: Nice to talk to you justin.

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Speaker 3: It's Joe Ryan from Baby Bliss, baby bliss dot com

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Speaker 3: dot A you. All the links will be in the

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Speaker 3: show notes so that you can get more info if

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Speaker 3: this is something that is desperately needed in your home

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Speaker 3: or the home of somebody that you know and love.

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Speaker 3: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Ruland.

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Speaker 2: From Bridge Media.

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Speaker 3: Craig Bruce is our executive producer.

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Speaker 2: For more info, visit Happy Families dot com dot U