1
00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:05,520
Speaker 1: We all have our Achilles Hill when it comes to

2
00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:07,360
Speaker 1: self control. But what we know is that there are

3
00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:11,120
Speaker 1: different tools we can use to improve our self control.

4
00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,720
Speaker 1: And these different things we can do, they're teachable, their

5
00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:18,840
Speaker 1: strategies are often easy to implement, and so I talk

6
00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,000
Speaker 1: to my kids about the different ways that they can

7
00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,239
Speaker 1: manage the temptation when it exists.

8
00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,120
Speaker 2: This is the Parenting and Perspective Podcast. It's a Happy

9
00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,400
Speaker 2: Families podcast. Hello, my name is doctor Justin Colson. It's

10
00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,200
Speaker 2: so good of you to join me for today's conversation.

11
00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,959
Speaker 2: This is one that I've been so excited about for a.

12
00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:37,840
Speaker 3: Long long time.

13
00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,320
Speaker 2: Today's guest has been linked to one of the most

14
00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:45,720
Speaker 2: famous psychological experiments ever done. Certainly in the last several

15
00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,479
Speaker 2: decades this has become an absolute classic. I'll tell you

16
00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:50,000
Speaker 2: more about it in just a sect, but let me

17
00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,920
Speaker 2: introduce my guest. Doctor Ethan Cross is a professor in

18
00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,040
Speaker 2: the psychology department the Well Look, I'll just say, at

19
00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:02,120
Speaker 2: the prestigious Ross School of Business at the University of Michigan.

20
00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,640
Speaker 2: Ethan specializes in the study of self control, and he

21
00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,800
Speaker 2: was mentored in graduate school by Walter Mitchell, who famously

22
00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:14,360
Speaker 2: studied delayed gratification with what's become known.

23
00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:16,400
Speaker 3: As the marsh Mellow experiment.

24
00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:21,240
Speaker 2: Ethan runs the University of Michigan Emotion and Self Control Laboratory,

25
00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,119
Speaker 2: and he's won a number of awards over the course

26
00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,880
Speaker 2: of his career, as well as being featured in publications

27
00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,119
Speaker 2: including The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The New.

28
00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:31,600
Speaker 3: Yorker, and USA Today.

29
00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:34,160
Speaker 2: And as always, I began by asking Ethan about his

30
00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:35,920
Speaker 2: work and his family life.

31
00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,080
Speaker 1: Well, I run a lab called the University of Michigan

32
00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:45,279
Speaker 1: Emotion and Self Control Laboratory, and basically we do lots

33
00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,920
Speaker 1: of experiments to try to figure out how self control

34
00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,920
Speaker 1: works in children and adults. And when I use the

35
00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:59,440
Speaker 1: term self control, I mean how can people align their thoughts,

36
00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,279
Speaker 1: feel and behaviors with their goals? So it's really broad.

37
00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,000
Speaker 1: It's really like, if you want to act or think

38
00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,440
Speaker 1: or feel a particular way in this world, how can

39
00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,480
Speaker 1: you do that? What are the psychological tools that allow

40
00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,600
Speaker 1: you to fulfill those goals? And so that takes us

41
00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:16,880
Speaker 1: down a lot of exciting paths that I'm sure we'll

42
00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,359
Speaker 1: talk about today and when I'm not working in a

43
00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:24,799
Speaker 1: lab with my students and colleagues, I'm both working and

44
00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,640
Speaker 1: relaxing at home. They a lot of work at home too.

45
00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:33,839
Speaker 1: I've got I'm married to a woman named Lara, and

46
00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,400
Speaker 1: I've got two daughters, My and Danny, age eleven and six,

47
00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,520
Speaker 1: who are a lot of fun and the inspiration for

48
00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:42,680
Speaker 1: lots of self control experiments.

49
00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I bet do you ever experiment on them?

50
00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,720
Speaker 2: Have you done the marshmallow experiment with your two daughters?

51
00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,280
Speaker 1: I have, in fact, a funny story about the marshmallow

52
00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,880
Speaker 1: experiment with my oldest daughter Maya. So my advisor in

53
00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,600
Speaker 1: graduate school is actually the marshmallow Man, Walter Michelle.

54
00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:02,880
Speaker 2: Now before you tell me about Maya for people who

55
00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,400
Speaker 2: are not familiar with Walter Michelle and the marshmallow experiment,

56
00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:06,640
Speaker 2: because that was going to be my next question.

57
00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,000
Speaker 3: Anyway, Okay, when I was cyber was talking, I was like,

58
00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:09,480
Speaker 3: no way.

59
00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,680
Speaker 2: Ethan Cross was supervised by one of the one of

60
00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:18,840
Speaker 2: the modern legends of psychology. He did this marshmallow experiment

61
00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:20,720
Speaker 2: that so many people have heard of and may maybe

62
00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:22,840
Speaker 2: even have seen in a recent resurgence of it on

63
00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,679
Speaker 2: TikTok in the last few months through the isolation stage.

64
00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,640
Speaker 3: What did he do? And then what did you do

65
00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:31,840
Speaker 3: with maya as a result of that.

66
00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:37,520
Speaker 1: Sure. So the marshmallow test in a nutshell is it's

67
00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,000
Speaker 1: a paradigm for studying self control in the lab under

68
00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:44,200
Speaker 1: control conditions. And what you do is you bring a

69
00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,320
Speaker 1: kid into the lab and then you give them a choice.

70
00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,400
Speaker 1: You say you can have one treat now or and

71
00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:52,440
Speaker 1: we call it the marshmallow test, but in fact we

72
00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,960
Speaker 1: use whatever treats the kids like. So for some kids

73
00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:56,840
Speaker 1: it's reasons. Other kids it's pretzels.

74
00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,440
Speaker 2: And you show me one child that's going to pick

75
00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:00,720
Speaker 2: a raisin a marshmallow.

76
00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:05,240
Speaker 1: Really, there are some we could talk about the question

77
00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,680
Speaker 1: marks that surround their match. I'm just joking. Some kids

78
00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,960
Speaker 1: like fruit, go figure. So you give them a choice

79
00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,440
Speaker 1: one marshmallow now or if you wait until I come back.

80
00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:17,880
Speaker 1: I have to leave the room for a little bit.

81
00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:19,800
Speaker 1: But if you can just sit tight and wait, then

82
00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,520
Speaker 1: you can have two marshmallows. But the only way you

83
00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,360
Speaker 1: can have two is if you wait until I come back.

84
00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,760
Speaker 1: And the experimenter doesn't tell the child how long it's

85
00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,160
Speaker 1: going to take for them to come back. So there's uncertainty,

86
00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,480
Speaker 1: which we know everyone who's living through COVID nineteen right

87
00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,279
Speaker 1: now uncertainty can drive emotional responses, and so this for

88
00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:44,480
Speaker 1: children is a really difficult choice, right because all the kids,

89
00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,839
Speaker 1: like Walter and the experimenters are running these studies, they

90
00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,400
Speaker 1: make sure that everyone wants the two marshmallows.

91
00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,520
Speaker 2: And then normally only around age four, maybe five or

92
00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,479
Speaker 2: six at the monster. So it's not like self regulation

93
00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:58,719
Speaker 2: and self control, which is what we're talking about and

94
00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:02,000
Speaker 2: teaching these kids. It's not like this is intrinsic to

95
00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,880
Speaker 2: them at this point, and self control is hard. They

96
00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,000
Speaker 2: go from zero zero to one hundred emotionally in seconds,

97
00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:08,520
Speaker 2: don't they.

98
00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,240
Speaker 1: Some kids do and other kids don't, And so that's

99
00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:13,960
Speaker 1: part of that. That's one of the really interesting findings

100
00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,640
Speaker 1: surrounding this line of work. So you look at so

101
00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,320
Speaker 1: everyone wants the two marshmallows, but they have this dilemma.

102
00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,800
Speaker 1: They're looking at this delectable treat, right, they're drooling over it,

103
00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,320
Speaker 1: So what do they do? So it turns out in

104
00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:29,680
Speaker 1: one line of studies they find that the kids who

105
00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,520
Speaker 1: are able to wait longer, their delay of gratification ability

106
00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,680
Speaker 1: predicts lots of important life outcomes later on in life.

107
00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,839
Speaker 1: So how well they do in school, how adjusted they

108
00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,080
Speaker 1: are in their relationships and their health. And the idea

109
00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,240
Speaker 1: is that what this task is tapping into is this

110
00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:52,360
Speaker 1: basic competency, this ability to manage our emotions. The other

111
00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,800
Speaker 1: thing that this line of research tells us, though, is

112
00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,680
Speaker 1: what Walter did lots of experiments to figure out, well,

113
00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:02,880
Speaker 1: how can you direct kids to think differently about what

114
00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,800
Speaker 1: they're waiting for the two marshmallows versus one? What are

115
00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,200
Speaker 1: the different psychological tricks that you can use, so to speak,

116
00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,960
Speaker 1: to manage your emotions effectively? And so they did lots

117
00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:17,080
Speaker 1: of experiments and found developed lots of insights that informed

118
00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:21,360
Speaker 1: us now many decades later about what are the tools

119
00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,240
Speaker 1: that people possess that we can use to control ourselves.

120
00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,240
Speaker 1: So that's the marshmallow test in a nutshell, and the

121
00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:29,960
Speaker 1: quick to bring it back to my family, the fun

122
00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,760
Speaker 1: anecdote is, I, of course have been waiting like a

123
00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,200
Speaker 1: decade since I started working with Walter to have a

124
00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,880
Speaker 1: kid who I could do this task with. And so

125
00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,880
Speaker 1: I dutifully set up the task and all the parameters

126
00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,039
Speaker 1: and make sure I'm doing it by the book, and

127
00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,920
Speaker 1: then I sit my down and I describe it and

128
00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,680
Speaker 1: I say okay, and before I leave, she goes, Daddy,

129
00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,599
Speaker 1: I want one marshmallow now and I want both later.

130
00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,719
Speaker 1: And so it's a clear violation of a protocol. And so,

131
00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,159
Speaker 1: because I know Walter or passed away recently, but I

132
00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,320
Speaker 1: knew him, I picked up the phone and I called

133
00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:07,240
Speaker 1: Walter and I said, Walter, you know, have you ever

134
00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,520
Speaker 1: heard of a child doing this in all the years

135
00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:14,640
Speaker 1: that you've been doing this research? And he pauses, and

136
00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,320
Speaker 1: then very sternly he says, Ethan, it's not too soon

137
00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:23,560
Speaker 1: to start therapy as as an indicator of what the uh,

138
00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,640
Speaker 1: of course was joking, but the message was delivered well.

139
00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,320
Speaker 2: And so you're going to have a long, long, hard

140
00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:31,320
Speaker 2: life with with the negotiator.

141
00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:32,920
Speaker 3: That's what That's what he's saying.

142
00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:37,800
Speaker 1: Get ready, Buckley, that basically that's right. So and uh,

143
00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:39,920
Speaker 1: you know, we maybe we'll get into it later. Maya

144
00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,520
Speaker 1: has proven to be quite a dept at negotiations in

145
00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:44,559
Speaker 1: the six years since we've done that task.

146
00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,000
Speaker 2: So now, now, before I asked the next question, I

147
00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,520
Speaker 2: think it's really important to highlight that as a as

148
00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,160
Speaker 2: a parenting expert or as a psychology researcher, my my

149
00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,160
Speaker 2: suggestion is you probably wouldn't be encouraging parents to do

150
00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,880
Speaker 2: the Marshmallow t start home with their children as a

151
00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,000
Speaker 2: diagnostic tool to determine how self control they'll be throughout

152
00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:09,680
Speaker 2: their life. Their destiny is not in their decision around Marshmallow.

153
00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:10,760
Speaker 1: Absolutely not.

154
00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:12,040
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a fun experiment.

155
00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,040
Speaker 1: It's fun experiment, and you know, the way that the

156
00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,320
Speaker 1: context in which I used to with my kids was

157
00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,480
Speaker 1: to introduce them to a scientific experiment and then to

158
00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:25,679
Speaker 1: talk about what we've learned. And one of the things

159
00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,160
Speaker 1: that we've learned, which often gets lost in the translation

160
00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,360
Speaker 1: of this work when people talk about it with the world,

161
00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,920
Speaker 1: is that one of the things we know is that

162
00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,400
Speaker 1: you can change your self control. You know, one of

163
00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:39,520
Speaker 1: my pet peeves is when I hear people saying you

164
00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:43,480
Speaker 1: have no self control. That's absolutely not true. Everyone possesses

165
00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,480
Speaker 1: self control to some extent. Some of us are better

166
00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,120
Speaker 1: at exerting it in some context as opposed to others.

167
00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,320
Speaker 1: I may be really good at exerting self control regulating

168
00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,520
Speaker 1: myself when I'm working on a problem at work, but

169
00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,439
Speaker 1: maybe I have a little bit more difficulties when I'm

170
00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,160
Speaker 1: coaching soccer. That's not true. I'm pretty good there too,

171
00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:04,040
Speaker 1: but I have my weaknesses they're associated with the pantry

172
00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,760
Speaker 1: post ten pm at night when I crave some food.

173
00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:08,240
Speaker 3: Advice.

174
00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,480
Speaker 1: We all have our achilles heel when it comes to

175
00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:13,320
Speaker 1: self control. But what we know is that there are

176
00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:17,120
Speaker 1: different tools we can use to improve our self control.

177
00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,480
Speaker 1: And these these these different things we can do, they're teachable,

178
00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,560
Speaker 1: their strategies are often easy to implement, and so I

179
00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:26,679
Speaker 1: talk to my kids about the different ways that they

180
00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:31,760
Speaker 1: can manage the temptation when it exists. And so absolutely not.

181
00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:33,920
Speaker 1: You wouldn't want people to think that scores on that

182
00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:35,720
Speaker 1: test or their destiny by any means.

183
00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:37,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I've done at home with my kids as well,

184
00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,520
Speaker 2: purely to have the conversation about self control and how

185
00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:44,360
Speaker 2: it works. In fact, you've taken me exactly to where

186
00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:45,800
Speaker 2: I wanted to go next, and that was just to

187
00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:46,560
Speaker 2: talk about how.

188
00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:47,960
Speaker 3: We can teach our children's self control.

189
00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,640
Speaker 2: And what I'm especially interested in is how does it

190
00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:56,480
Speaker 2: affect children who are not developing along with typical pathways,

191
00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,160
Speaker 2: you know, kids that have got ADHD, kids that have

192
00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:03,160
Speaker 2: got autism. What can your self control research teach us

193
00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,720
Speaker 2: in terms of helping those more narrow, rigid thinking children

194
00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:09,599
Speaker 2: to manage themselves.

195
00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,440
Speaker 1: Will one disclaimer is we haven't looked at several of

196
00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:17,160
Speaker 1: those populations, and there's always this tension between wanting to

197
00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:22,320
Speaker 1: generalize from the studies we've done as far as we

198
00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,960
Speaker 1: can and without having looked at ADHD and autism in particular.

199
00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,000
Speaker 1: It's hard to make that leap because we're dealing with,

200
00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,480
Speaker 1: in some cases, very different kinds of populations with their

201
00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:38,040
Speaker 1: own unique characteristics. Now what we do know, we can

202
00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,840
Speaker 1: say something though about about populations of children who experience

203
00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:47,600
Speaker 1: difficulty regulating themselves in general, so not clinical populations, but

204
00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,920
Speaker 1: groups that are just more impulsive, more prone to anger,

205
00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,480
Speaker 1: more prone to experiencing temptation. By and large, what we

206
00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:59,240
Speaker 1: see is that the more intense the emotional response, the

207
00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,760
Speaker 1: more effective the different self controls tend to be. And

208
00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:05,640
Speaker 1: the idea there is, look, if you're dealing with a

209
00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,200
Speaker 1: little bit of emotion, there's not a whole lot of

210
00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:11,880
Speaker 1: room for these tools to help you feel better or

211
00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,439
Speaker 1: help you rein it in. But as the amplitude of

212
00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,280
Speaker 1: the emotions go up, the more intense it is, the

213
00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,720
Speaker 1: more room there is to help bring you down. And

214
00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,600
Speaker 1: so in some of those Batman effect studies, for example,

215
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,960
Speaker 1: we've seen that the kids who benefit the most from

216
00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:30,480
Speaker 1: that technique are the ones who have the most difficulty

217
00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:34,800
Speaker 1: regulating themselves. In general, they're the ones who are benefiting.

218
00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,000
Speaker 1: And so there are lots of open questions about whether

219
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:42,200
Speaker 1: that'll extend to autistic and other populations, but we do

220
00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,280
Speaker 1: have some inklings that it might. So there are a

221
00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:49,240
Speaker 1: boatload of different strategies that people can use to exert

222
00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,880
Speaker 1: self control, both children and adults. And to be concrete

223
00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,640
Speaker 1: about what I mean by that, we know, for example,

224
00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,800
Speaker 1: that when people are tempted to act in particular ways,

225
00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,720
Speaker 1: or when they're trying to control their emotions, diverting their

226
00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,959
Speaker 1: attention can be really powerful right as a short term fix,

227
00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,600
Speaker 1: So you might want to have a person if something

228
00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,720
Speaker 1: is bothering us or tempting us, let's focus on something else.

229
00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,560
Speaker 1: And for young children in particular, diverting attention can be

230
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,920
Speaker 1: a powerful tool if they're looking at a treat. For example,

231
00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,959
Speaker 1: in the Marshmallow studies, like one of the best ways

232
00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,320
Speaker 1: to get kids to wait longer was to put a

233
00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,520
Speaker 1: little box on top of the marshmallow so the kids

234
00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,800
Speaker 1: couldn't see it, or to have the child think about

235
00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,000
Speaker 1: other things, think fun thoughts about being on the playground

236
00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,920
Speaker 1: with Mommy pushing me on the swing. So diverting our

237
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,240
Speaker 1: attention away from a thing that's tempting or bothering us

238
00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,720
Speaker 1: can be one kind of tool. Another kind of tool

239
00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,559
Speaker 1: deals with the ability of the mind to change the

240
00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,199
Speaker 1: way we think about things. So we did a study

241
00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,600
Speaker 1: several years ago. It was a brain imaging experiment in

242
00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,679
Speaker 1: which we were trying to look at how people can

243
00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:01,199
Speaker 1: reduce craving responses to things like Peize's or drugs. Right,

244
00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:05,320
Speaker 1: we see these temptations, we desperately want them, and so

245
00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,160
Speaker 1: in one condition, we've had people just look it up

246
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:13,520
Speaker 1: an image of a delicious looking piece of pizza, and

247
00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:17,199
Speaker 1: in another condition, we had them imagine that a cockerroach

248
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,040
Speaker 1: to just crawled across the pizzas. And so that's just

249
00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,559
Speaker 1: an example of the power of the mind to transform

250
00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,240
Speaker 1: the way we think about things, and how we change

251
00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,600
Speaker 1: the way we think can change the way we feel.

252
00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:34,520
Speaker 1: That is the basis of cognitive therapy and cognitive interventions

253
00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:35,480
Speaker 1: to change our mood.

254
00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:37,280
Speaker 2: So, in a nutshell, what we want to do without

255
00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,720
Speaker 2: our children is we want to either divert their attention

256
00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,080
Speaker 2: so they're not even thinking about it, or make it invisible,

257
00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:44,880
Speaker 2: like literally pick it up and move it, or pick

258
00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:46,240
Speaker 2: your child up and move your child.

259
00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:47,600
Speaker 3: And this will obviously work a.

260
00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:49,880
Speaker 2: Lot easier with younger children, but you can still make

261
00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,520
Speaker 2: stuff invisible. They usually look at you and wing and say, oh,

262
00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,120
Speaker 2: a couple believe you're taking that away. But technically that's

263
00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,440
Speaker 2: not self control, that's parent control. Nevertheless, it will reduce

264
00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,040
Speaker 2: the challenge that you're fighting.

265
00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:03,840
Speaker 1: Well, I think the way you're describing it right is

266
00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,239
Speaker 1: the parent is being the agent of control. This parent control.

267
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:09,880
Speaker 1: But what we also can do, and one of the

268
00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,600
Speaker 1: things we're exploring now is teaching kids to do this

269
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,120
Speaker 1: on their own. And so one of the strike if

270
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,240
Speaker 1: you look back at some of those early marshmallow studies,

271
00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,680
Speaker 1: what you see is that some kids spontaneously do this.

272
00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,280
Speaker 1: Some kids close their you can't see me now, your

273
00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,400
Speaker 1: listeners can't see me, but I'm mimicking what they do.

274
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,520
Speaker 1: Some kids put their hand over their eyes. One girl

275
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,640
Speaker 1: had really long hair and she flipped it so she

276
00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,000
Speaker 1: couldn't see the marshmallow in front of her. Another kid

277
00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:40,560
Speaker 1: told himself a story, an elaborate story with imaginary friends.

278
00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,360
Speaker 1: And so these are all different tools that kids are

279
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,720
Speaker 1: doing on their own. And so as parents, we possess

280
00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:51,200
Speaker 1: the ability to essentially give kids the tools by distracting

281
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,760
Speaker 1: them or prompting them to think different. Hey, that person's

282
00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:56,520
Speaker 1: bothering you at the schoolyard, But let's look at the

283
00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,680
Speaker 1: big picture, Maya or Danny. You know what, there's lots

284
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:01,320
Speaker 1: of friends. You don't have to talk with that person,

285
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,240
Speaker 1: So we could shift their perspective. But what we can

286
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,560
Speaker 1: also do is we can teach children to do this

287
00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:08,320
Speaker 1: on their own.

288
00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,680
Speaker 2: If you would rattle off, let's say three self control tips,

289
00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:13,920
Speaker 2: the top three that come to mind for children who

290
00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,920
Speaker 2: are somewhere around four, five, six, seven years of age,

291
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,400
Speaker 2: you know, those elementary school, those early primary school years.

292
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,560
Speaker 2: What kind of tips would you give parents if they

293
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,840
Speaker 2: want to help their kids to develop the self control

294
00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,840
Speaker 2: to not eat the marshmallow or the pretzel or the raisin.

295
00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:30,880
Speaker 3: Right where do they go?

296
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,920
Speaker 1: Well? I think one is attention. So teaching them how

297
00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:39,040
Speaker 1: to divert their attention away from whatever's tempting them and

298
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,640
Speaker 1: give themselves something to focus on is even more powerful.

299
00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,640
Speaker 1: So really get them to focus in on something that's

300
00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,920
Speaker 1: equally engaging, but not the thing that's tempting them So

301
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:50,920
Speaker 1: if you don't want them to watch TV, give them

302
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,360
Speaker 1: a really fun buzzle to work on or something like that,

303
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,000
Speaker 1: or problem to work on. Another thing is changing the

304
00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,000
Speaker 1: way they think about something. So if they're looking at

305
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,320
Speaker 1: the candy and they really want to eat it, asks

306
00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,160
Speaker 1: them to imagine, well, you know, imagine that. I guess

307
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,560
Speaker 1: kids aren't tempted by bread. Is what is a candy? Basically?

308
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,680
Speaker 1: Mostly right? I mean, imagine that someone stepped on it,

309
00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:18,880
Speaker 1: you know, or those kinds of transformations can be powerful, right,

310
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,880
Speaker 1: So don't think about it as a marshmallow. Think about

311
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,720
Speaker 1: it as a puffy cloud, right, So play with it

312
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,560
Speaker 1: in your head, and importantly, when you play with it,

313
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,320
Speaker 1: don't think about the things that are most Oh my god,

314
00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to think about how it's going to taste.

315
00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,280
Speaker 1: If you've talked to your child about the negative health

316
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:40,680
Speaker 1: implications of eating too much candy or negative health implications

317
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,840
Speaker 1: for a child like tummy aches, right, not feeling good after,

318
00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:46,880
Speaker 1: have them think about that. So, you know, think about

319
00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,960
Speaker 1: the fact that too many marshmallows can make you not

320
00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:51,720
Speaker 1: so healthy and that's not a good thing. You have

321
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:53,760
Speaker 1: to go to the doctor and so forth and so on.

322
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,400
Speaker 1: A third strategy you can use to give you the

323
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,200
Speaker 1: last one is you can try something called what we've

324
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:06,640
Speaker 1: called the Batman effect. So have a child pretend find

325
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:11,159
Speaker 1: their favorite superhero. And as so, superheroes are usually generally

326
00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:17,600
Speaker 1: really good at at at exercising restraint right and being

327
00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,600
Speaker 1: able to do good things in the world. And so

328
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,440
Speaker 1: in some studies, what a colleague of Mind Stephanie Carlson

329
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:28,920
Speaker 1: has found is that having children use imagine their superhero

330
00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,240
Speaker 1: and use their name, imagine your Batman and say what

331
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,720
Speaker 1: would Batman do right now? Would Batman be able to

332
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,640
Speaker 1: not eat the marshmallow? Or Dora the Explorer? What would

333
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,560
Speaker 1: Dora do? That can be really powerful. It transports them

334
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,880
Speaker 1: into this other role which gives them some distance from

335
00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:48,359
Speaker 1: the temptation and also this superpower to restrain it. And

336
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,600
Speaker 1: so that's been a fun strategy that kids have been

337
00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:53,840
Speaker 1: able to benefit from in some experiments.

338
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:54,960
Speaker 3: I love the Batman effect.

339
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,520
Speaker 2: And what I really love about that that piece of

340
00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:02,760
Speaker 2: research is well, first of all, we're looking at how

341
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,560
Speaker 2: people who speak to themselves in that sort of alter

342
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:08,440
Speaker 2: ego way.

343
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:10,280
Speaker 3: You know, what would Batman do, what would Wonder Woman do?

344
00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:11,240
Speaker 3: What would bother the bill.

345
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:15,400
Speaker 2: To do versus. Come on, Ethan, you've got this versus

346
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:17,160
Speaker 2: I know what I would do. You know, these three

347
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,280
Speaker 2: different conditions, and you found in this study that kids

348
00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,840
Speaker 2: persevered longer. They just they had more motivation, they had

349
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,160
Speaker 2: a greater level of self control and tenacity. So I've

350
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,400
Speaker 2: been talking to adults about that and saying, when you're

351
00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,280
Speaker 2: up against something where you don't want to exert the

352
00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,440
Speaker 2: kind of control that's necessary, or where you're struggling, or

353
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,000
Speaker 2: you don't want to persevere, or you're ready to explode

354
00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,440
Speaker 2: your children, and you just need to regulate your emotions.

355
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,000
Speaker 2: Don't necessarily think about what Batman would do, but think

356
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:45,119
Speaker 2: about who your inner mental mentor might be. You know,

357
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,520
Speaker 2: think of Ethan Cross or many people, unfortunately for me,

358
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,560
Speaker 2: will say that I just think about what you would

359
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:52,320
Speaker 2: do if you or what I would do if you

360
00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:56,440
Speaker 2: were watching me. I know that ancient and modern traditions

361
00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,120
Speaker 2: have encouraged that. So there's the Christian tradition of wearing

362
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,600
Speaker 2: the ww ID bracelet what would Jesus do? And I

363
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,240
Speaker 2: think that that, I mean, that's a kind of a

364
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,240
Speaker 2: self control strategy, really isn't It's a psychological a self

365
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:08,120
Speaker 2: distancing strategy.

366
00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,439
Speaker 1: Absolutely, you know this idea of distance. Really, what it

367
00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,200
Speaker 1: boils down to is the it's almost like giving yourself

368
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 1: a time out in the moment. So it's this ability

369
00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:24,160
Speaker 1: when we experience strong emotions, they often narrow our attention

370
00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,640
Speaker 1: in on exactly what it is that's driving those responses,

371
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,080
Speaker 1: and that that can that zooming in can make it

372
00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:36,640
Speaker 1: really difficult to take the broader picture into account. If

373
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,879
Speaker 1: I am too intolerant with my children, how might that

374
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,760
Speaker 1: affect them long term? So this ability to just hit

375
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,760
Speaker 1: stop for a moment and zoom out can be really powerful.

376
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,440
Speaker 1: And there's lots of research which shows that. And in fact,

377
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,800
Speaker 1: this is a project that where we've been working on

378
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,840
Speaker 1: for the past five years. It's called the Toolbox Project.

379
00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,080
Speaker 1: For the past ten years or so, I've been teaching

380
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,560
Speaker 1: a class here a little bit less than ten years

381
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,600
Speaker 1: called the Science of Self Control to University Michigan undergrads,

382
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,040
Speaker 1: And it's essentially science's great as hits when it comes

383
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,440
Speaker 1: to what we've learned over the past fifty years about

384
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,760
Speaker 1: how to control our emotions, our thoughts, our behaviors. And

385
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,800
Speaker 1: it's always a really fun class to teach. The students

386
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,040
Speaker 1: love the material, they're engaged. And the way it works

387
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 1: is every week students come in, they read stuff, and

388
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,000
Speaker 1: I pepper them with questions, and on the final day

389
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,960
Speaker 1: we reverse the roles. They come in with questions for me,

390
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,640
Speaker 1: it's their last day. Here's what's on my mind. Now

391
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,120
Speaker 1: that I've gone through the whole literature, I've digested it

392
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,560
Speaker 1: and so forth. And about five years ago, this one

393
00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:45,640
Speaker 1: girl named Ariel. She raised her hand like really defiantly

394
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,159
Speaker 1: as soon as the class started to wanting to be

395
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,399
Speaker 1: called on. And so I called on her, and she says,

396
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,840
Speaker 1: why are we learning about this now? I go, well,

397
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,480
Speaker 1: what do you mean? She goes, well, you know, we've

398
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,760
Speaker 1: gone over all of these different strategies that exist, dozens

399
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,680
Speaker 1: of strategies that can help us be happier, healthier, get

400
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,919
Speaker 1: better jobs, and so forth. Why did anyone teach us

401
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,119
Speaker 1: about this earlier on in life when it could have

402
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,639
Speaker 1: helped us, like when we were kids or adolescents. And

403
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,399
Speaker 1: so the first thing I said was, fear not. Life

404
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,080
Speaker 1: is not over. You will still have opportunities to use

405
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:24,120
Speaker 1: these strategies once you leave college. But then I did

406
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 1: something I don't want to say it was slightly cowardly.

407
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,800
Speaker 1: I did what many politicians do when they don't have

408
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 1: a good answer to a question. I deflected and I

409
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:35,919
Speaker 1: threw it back to the class and I said, well,

410
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,000
Speaker 1: what other people think, why haven't you learned about this yet?

411
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:40,960
Speaker 1: And the reason I did that was because I didn't

412
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,479
Speaker 1: have a good answer to that question. And so it

413
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,880
Speaker 1: got me thinking a lot about why aren't we teaching

414
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 1: kids about what we know about how the mind works

415
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,520
Speaker 1: when it comes to self control. We teach children about

416
00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:59,119
Speaker 1: how the digestive system works. We teach them about geometry,

417
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 1: we teach them about social studies. These are just concepts.

418
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 1: These are these are topics that we think are important,

419
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 1: and so they're in the they're in the kind of

420
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 1: canon of what we expose them to in in school. Well,

421
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 1: the mind seems kind of important and we've learned about it,

422
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 1: so why aren't we also teaching them about this? And

423
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,639
Speaker 1: so fast forward five years. What we've been doing is

424
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 1: a group of scientists like myself have have paired up

425
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 1: with educational experts curriculum designers to essentially take the science

426
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 1: of self control, what do we know about the different

427
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,879
Speaker 1: tools that exist, and we've translated that into a curriculum

428
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,879
Speaker 1: for middle and high school kids a little bit older

429
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 1: than the than the ages that you were asking about.

430
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 1: But the idea was that this was a good place

431
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 1: to start, and so we took the science which can

432
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 1: be filled with complicated terms that scientists love to use,

433
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 1: but we've we've made it simple and with engaging exercises.

434
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,680
Speaker 1: And what we're doing now is we are looking at, well,

435
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 1: what are the implications of teaching children about these strategies.

436
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 1: In some of our early studies, we know we have

437
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 1: data to show that the kids who go through this curriculum,

438
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 1: they do in fact learn the material. So you do

439
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,199
Speaker 1: a test at the beginning and at the end of

440
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 1: the curriculum their knowledge of the science of self control increases.

441
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 1: And what we're getting ready to do with about ten

442
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 1: thousand students next year is we're going to test to

443
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:32,199
Speaker 1: see what effect does learning about these strategies have on

444
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 1: these students' ability to regulate themselves down the road in life.

445
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 1: And the hypothesis the prediction is that knowing about these

446
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 1: strategies should provide these kids with resources that they could

447
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 1: draw upon when they need them, in the same way

448
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 1: that knowing how to compute a percentage allows us to

449
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 1: determine the tip when we go to a restaurant. The

450
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 1: idea is that when a kid is angry or tempted,

451
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: if they're motivated to control those urges or emotions, they

452
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 1: should have a knowledge base to fall back on in

453
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: those instances.

454
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 2: Earlier, you defined self control. I'd like to now define

455
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 2: emotional regulation. But I'm not sure that there's got to

456
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 2: be an enormous difference in what you said previously. You know,

457
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 2: that idea of harnessing your your faculties and characteristics and

458
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 2: directing them towards a goal effectively was my summary of

459
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 2: your your definition. Would you would you be switching that

460
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 2: up at all for emotional regulation?

461
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 1: You know?

462
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 3: I don't.

463
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 1: And a disclaimer, you know, for all of all the

464
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 1: people listening, is that scientists are really good at coming

465
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 1: up with different terms that differ in ever so slight ways,

466
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 1: and that could be useful when we do experiments. But

467
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 1: I think the self includes emotions, it includes behaviors, and

468
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 1: includes thoughts and cognitions, and so when you're talking about

469
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: controlling the self control, to me, it's a whole kit

470
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 1: and kaboodle. So I use the broadest definition of self control.

471
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 1: It's aligning thoughts, feelings, and behaviors with goals. Now, now

472
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,360
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that self control is always a good thing,

473
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 1: because it means that if you have bad goals right,

474
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: the better you are at. Self control means that you

475
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: can do bad things right. So, for example, let's say

476
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 1: I have the goal of of of of of committing

477
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 1: a crime right, which might be very challenging for me

478
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 1: to emotionally, it might be hard to hurt someone else.

479
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: If I have good self control, that might help me

480
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: do that. So so self control in my world is

481
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: not always good, right.

482
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 2: And our kids aren't necessarily planning on committing the any

483
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 2: any grievous and we hope not.

484
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,880
Speaker 1: That's right, And so in all of our studies we're

485
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 1: giving them goals that are healthy goals. Of course, I

486
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,199
Speaker 1: think that's in most of cases. That's where self control

487
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 1: is being hardness towards.

488
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 2: I'm fascinated though, by this idea that self control can

489
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 2: sometimes be a bad thing, and it's not necessarily just

490
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 2: in pursuit of negative goals. Sometimes that self control can

491
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 2: also become counterproductive when our children become so rigid and

492
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 2: so focused, and we do as adults as well, we

493
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 2: become so focused on something that is good and worthy

494
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 2: and useful, but it's actually going to come at such

495
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 2: an extraordinary cost and our life gets out of balance.

496
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 2: You know, there's all this Angela Duckworth, who I know

497
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:33,640
Speaker 2: you've worked with her work around being gritty and persevering

498
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 2: through tough times. Paul Tough wrote a book called How

499
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 2: Children Succeed. It was all about teaching kids grit, making

500
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 2: sure that they do the hard yards. And there's obviously

501
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 2: a very strong argument for having that gritty determination and perseverance,

502
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 2: having the self control, but there's also a pretty strong

503
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 2: argument about having the wisdom to know when to step

504
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,360
Speaker 2: back and just let go. Can you talk a little

505
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 2: bit about why self control isn't always the most important thing,

506
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 2: or is and always going to be functional and optimal

507
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,120
Speaker 2: for our children all for ourselves.

508
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: So many things are interesting about what you said. I mean,

509
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: this idea of wisdom as stepping back right is another

510
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: illustration of the value of distance, disability to step back

511
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,959
Speaker 1: and take stock of what you're going through and then

512
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 1: decide how to behave I think your question speaks to

513
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: this issue of that human beings are complicated. We are

514
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 1: not driven to achieve one goal we live in a

515
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 1: world filled with multiple goals, right, so goals to succeed

516
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 1: at work but also to succeed in our personal lives.

517
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: And those goals don't always conflict, as many people know

518
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: who are trudging away at work at eight pm when

519
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,479
Speaker 1: they might want to be home with their family, and

520
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: so there are trade offs that we are constantly trying

521
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 1: to maintain. It. It keeps take stock of and balance and

522
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: so forth, and it gets complicated. So, you know, although

523
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 1: most of our experiments focus on one goal, that's not

524
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: the world in which we live. And I think people

525
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 1: who are better able to balance all of the different

526
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 1: goals that are on their plates and manage them accordingly

527
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: are more likely to be in a position to be

528
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: living the kind of life they ultimately want.

529
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 3: Who are these perfect people? Where are they? How do

530
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 3: we study them? They're in Australia, of course, of course,

531
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 3: so I.

532
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: Think this is you know, this is unfortunately where a

533
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 1: lot of the science stops right now, because most of

534
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 1: the work we do and thus far has been studying

535
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: specific goals under tightly controlled conditions. And the reason for

536
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: that is it's much harder conceptually and practically to do

537
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 1: experiments when there are seventeen goals that are all conflicting,

538
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: so I wish I could tell you who these people are.

539
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: There are likely exemplars that we could find and then

540
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: try to study in the same way that we sometimes.

541
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: You know, one approach to science is finding people who

542
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 1: are really good at something, you know, Michael Jordan's of

543
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: their industries, and then trying to figure out what makes

544
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: them tick, and then you run experiments on them. But

545
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: in my mind, we haven't yet done that on the

546
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: exemplars of self control.

547
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 2: I think that it's a really interesting conversation though, and

548
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 2: I know we're kind of going off script a little

549
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 2: bit here, but to me, this idea that some parents

550
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 2: will will take a conversation about self control and say, Okay,

551
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 2: well I want my child to get into this university

552
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 2: course or have this opportunity in life, or just you've

553
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 2: got to learn self control. Because the dun Eden study

554
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 2: showed the children who learn self control do better at school,

555
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 2: and they're less likely ended up in prison, and they're

556
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 2: going to have more successful marriages. You know, this was

557
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 2: this thirty plus year study of how self control is

558
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 2: associated with all these positive outcomes. So we've got to

559
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 2: teach your self control, and all of a sudden life

560
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 2: becomes too controlled, whether it's pursuing academics or whether it's

561
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 2: pursuing the extracurricular things like piano or or whatever that

562
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 2: thing is that our children are doing outside, you know,

563
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 2: becoming an Olympian swimmer, whatever it may.

564
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: Right, Well, I think I think a big part of

565
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: that equation has to do with number one, what you

566
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: as a parent and the child the value right, because

567
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: our goals, right, Like, so, what are the goals that

568
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: we have and which are most important to us? There

569
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: are going to be people out there who, for them,

570
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: the most important thing is getting into that desired college

571
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: or getting that job. And if that's the case, you

572
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: can make an argument that helping that child fulfill that

573
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: goal is really important. But let's say people have multiple

574
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: goals like that are important them not just getting into

575
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: the best school, but also having great relationships and enjoying

576
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: the moment. Well, that would suggests a different course of action.

577
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: I mean, look, I study this stuff. I'm a I'm

578
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: a presumed expert on this topic, and I'd be lying

579
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: if I told you that my wife and I are

580
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: constantly doing a kind of self and family evaluation of

581
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: our kids, their goals, our goals, and how we can

582
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: give them the best possibility of leading living a happy life,

583
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: like we want them to be successful more than that,

584
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: we want them to be happy. And you know, I

585
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: think we are stumbling our way through like many parents

586
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 1: with forward progress. Of course, if we invite my and

587
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: Danny on the podcast, they might say something different. The

588
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: first step is being mindful of this. Simply being aware

589
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: that life isn't driven much of the time by one goal,

590
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: but by many is an important insight that can be

591
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: useful for helping parents think about how they want to

592
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: structure their kids' activities and lives, given these multiple goals

593
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,959
Speaker 1: that they may have for their kids and that their

594
00:31:58,040 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: kids may have for themselves.

595
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 2: Ethan, I appreciate the vulnerability and you, I guess confessing

596
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 2: owning up to the fact that you're kind of making

597
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 2: it up as you go along, even if you've got

598
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 2: the professorship in psychology, because I feel the same way.

599
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 2: You know, I've written six books, I've got the PhD

600
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 2: in positive psychology, I've run a bajillion seminars on this stuff.

601
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 2: And there are days where I look at my wife

602
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 2: and say I don't have a clue how we're supposed

603
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 2: to manage it.

604
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 3: You tell me, and she'll look at me and say, well,

605
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 3: you're the expert. You told me. I'm like, but I

606
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 3: don't know.

607
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 2: Anyway, let's move towards a conclusion. There's a couple of

608
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: other questions that I want to ask you before we

609
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 2: get to my five questions that always wrap up every podcast.

610
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 2: Something that strikes me as vitally important is that.

611
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 3: Emotions are contagious.

612
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 2: Kids catch their parents cranky, they catch our chaos, they

613
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 2: catch our crazy, but they also catch how calm. The

614
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 2: same strategies that we've discussed for younger children, I'm sure

615
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 2: that they work for adults as well for parents. But

616
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 2: I'm curious if there's anything else that you would add here.

617
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 2: How else can parents stay calm and appropriately regulated? What

618
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 2: strategies would you share for parents who are just over

619
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 2: it some afternoons or evenings or mornings.

620
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,239
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you about the strategies that some

621
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: of the ones, some of my favorites that I rely on.

622
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: Because there's a boltload of strategies there at least a

623
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: dozen two dozen out there that have science behind it.

624
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: We don't have time to get into them all. But

625
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: let me tell you what I do. One thing I

626
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: do is I will rely on that linguistic distancing. So

627
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: when I'm in the heat of the moment, I'm anxious

628
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: or I'm angry, I will use my name silently to

629
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: think about what I'm going through.

630
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 2: Ethan k Dad, Why are you talking to yourself in

631
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 2: the first person?

632
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 3: What's going on here?

633
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, definitely, you definitely want to do that silently.

634
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: That's an infortant caveat, and that's helpful. Another thing I'll

635
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: do is something that we call temporal distancing jargon. Again,

636
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: think of it as mental time travel. This can be

637
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: a very powerful tool. I'll imagine in about how am

638
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: I going to feel about this thing, not right now,

639
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: but a week from now, or a month from now,

640
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: or a year from now as you age. One of

641
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 1: the things I think many people learn is that many

642
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: times time does heal Right. Our emotions go up, but

643
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 1: inevitably they do come down. Right. Our own personal news

644
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 1: cycle is constantly running, just like it is out there

645
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: in the media. New things come in to our lives, right,

646
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: and our emotions abside. So I'll remind myself about the

647
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 1: fact that you know what, I'll probably feel fine about

648
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:37,479
Speaker 1: this argument network a week later, and then the last

649
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: thing I'll do is I'll take a walk out in nature.

650
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 1: There's some gorgeous data showing how simple exposures to green

651
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: space can be remarkably powerful for calming us down and

652
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: restoring the psychological resources that we often need to remain

653
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: in control. And so that's my trio of strategies that

654
00:34:58,960 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: I rely on.

655
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: Ethan so many questions that I want to ask you,

656
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 2: but time's going to get the better of us. So

657
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,760
Speaker 2: I'm going to completely switch gears for one final question,

658
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 2: and this relates to your work that you've done around social.

659
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:13,280
Speaker 3: Media and well being.

660
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 2: We alluded earlier that we might get to this, and

661
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 2: I really want to bring this up. So recently I

662
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 2: spoke with Sarah Coyn at Brigham Young University. Had a

663
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 2: fascinating conversation with her around what she's been discovering in

664
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 2: her research to do with the lack of control that

665
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 2: both parents and children often feel in relation to their

666
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 2: media being consumed. But also she highlighted something that Andy

667
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 2: Shobulski at Oxford has highlighted, and that is that there

668
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 2: doesn't seem to be any tremendous wellbeing downsides from reasonable

669
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 2: amounts of device and technology usage. What I'd love to

670
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 2: know is what does your research say about social media

671
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 2: wellbeing and in particularly what does it say for young people?

672
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 2: And how does this all weave back into the self

673
00:35:59,000 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 2: control conversation?

674
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: Easy question. So this is a you know, I've been

675
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 1: doing research in the space for about ten years and

676
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 1: it's been really interesting to see it evolve. It is

677
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 1: very contentious right now. Number one, I think we need

678
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: to not talk about social media or digital screen time

679
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: as this monolithic activity, right that's either good or bad.

680
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 1: There are countless ways that people can use social media,

681
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: and if you break down different ways of using it,

682
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: what you see is just like in everyday life, there

683
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 1: are helpful versus harmful ways of interacting with other people.

684
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: The same is true of social media, and so a

685
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: lot of the things that we do on social media

686
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: can be good for us, help build social capital and

687
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 1: social connections. A lot of the things can be totally benign,

688
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: have no implications on how we feel, and yet there

689
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 1: can be other ways that we interact with social media

690
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: that tank our emotions. For example, think about things like

691
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: cyber bullying, and trolling, which are really quite significant phenomena

692
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 1: that have a ton of data behind them. Right, the

693
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 1: consequences of being cyberbullied can be extreme, the kinds of

694
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: fomo experiences and envy that we experience when we look

695
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: at people's curated lives online. So there are many different

696
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,720
Speaker 1: ways that we connect with the technology, and I think

697
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: you can ask questions about well, does time on screen

698
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,919
Speaker 1: lead people to feel good or bad? And I think

699
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: Sarah's right that on the whole that data show well,

700
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,839
Speaker 1: overall usage small negative effect on well being, but it's

701
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: a really small effect. But if you break things down

702
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: into different ways of using the technology, what you find

703
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: is that they're healthy and harmful ways of using it.

704
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,439
Speaker 1: And I think the challenge for parents is to figure

705
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: out what those are so that they can teach their

706
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 1: kids how to navigate social media optimally. In the same

707
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: way that we spend much of our parenting life teaching

708
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: our children how to navigate the offline world optimally, the

709
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 1: same is true, I would argue for social media.

710
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we've got the way I talk to parents

711
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 2: about this is I'll describe three c's. There's connection, there's consumption,

712
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 2: there's creation when we're online. And my read of it,

713
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 2: and certainly your conversation just now underscores and reemphasizes this,

714
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 2: is that when we're using it for consumption or for

715
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 2: other negative purposes, which is certainly not effective for connection

716
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 2: or creation, we can actually end up with the strong downside.

717
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 2: But if we're using it for connection, we're using it

718
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 2: for creation, we're probably going to have positive experiences online.

719
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 2: And then it just comes down to regulation. Am I

720
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 2: able to get off so that I can get enough sleep?

721
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 2: Am I able to get off so that there's no

722
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: impact on my physical well being? I can still go

723
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 2: and be a human? It sounds so sensible when you

724
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 2: say it like that, Ethan.

725
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:01,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, no, I totally agree. And what I

726
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 1: tell people is that, look, social media, it's a new

727
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 1: ecosystem that we interact in. It's a new environment, and

728
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,399
Speaker 1: environments aren't good or bad, right, It depends on how

729
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 1: you engage with the environment that determines the implications it

730
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 1: has for your emotional life. And I think if you

731
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 1: look at the evidence, you find evidence to support that

732
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: idea as well.

733
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,839
Speaker 2: So yeah, right, well, thank you so much. Let's move

734
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 2: towards the conclusion you've got a book coming out soon.

735
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,280
Speaker 2: Would you like to tell us a bit about that book.

736
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 1: Yes, the book coming out. It's called Chatter, The Voice

737
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 1: in Our Head, Why it matters and how to harness it,

738
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 1: And it's coming out next January, and it talks about

739
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: a lot of the work that we've talked about on

740
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 1: this podcast, but goes deeper, namely, why is it that

741
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 1: our ability to think about our lives sometimes can be

742
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,879
Speaker 1: an incredible superpower, but at other times tank our mood

743
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: and our relationships And importantly, what are the tools that

744
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 1: we possessed to master that ability to introspect?

745
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 3: That sounds amazing. Available for pre order or soon.

746
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 1: It's available for pre order. It's on Amazon and all

747
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 1: of well, it's on Amazon. I don't know about all

748
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: the other sites yet because I'm a first time author,

749
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,959
Speaker 1: but I know you can find it on Amazon, and yeah,

750
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 1: pre order is available.

751
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 3: Congratulations, Chatter Chatter. I love the sound of that. It

752
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:24,320
Speaker 3: sounds brilliant.

753
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 2: To wrap up the podcast, I always ask five questions

754
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 2: of all of my guests. Everyone gets the same ones,

755
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 2: and they're supposed to be reasonably rapid fire, but if

756
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 2: you want to expand on any sometimes we hear some

757
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 2: of our most compelling and delightful stories.

758
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 3: So question number one, Ethan Cross.

759
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 2: If we asked your two daughters what their favorite thing

760
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 2: to do with you is, what would they tell.

761
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 1: Us Take all time before bed, cooking dinner together, and

762
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 1: traveling to exciting places which don't mean exotic, but exciting beautiful.

763
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 2: What's been your trickiest ing moment? And don't tell me

764
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 2: that it was that marshmallow experiment where your daughter wanted bonuses.

765
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: Now, my trickiest moment has been seeing my children deal

766
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: with emotional hardship that the source of which is out

767
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: of my control, So when other kids are being mean

768
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: to them, and just knowing that inevitably there's going to

769
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 1: be more of that in store for them as they

770
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:30,359
Speaker 1: live their lives, and just trying to help them as

771
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: I experience their pain, which is not pleasant but probably

772
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 1: a good thing.

773
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting how many people will offer some kind

774
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 2: of a response along those lines. Watching our children struggle

775
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:46,359
Speaker 2: seems to be an almost universally agreed upon challenge that

776
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: no parent wants, and yet every parent knows how important

777
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 2: that is. It seems to teach them everything that they

778
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,919
Speaker 2: need to know about being a great human ongoingly. Question

779
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 2: number three, Ethan, if you could spend an hour with

780
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 2: your two daughters at any age at all, so you know,

781
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 2: tomorrow afternoon they walk in the door and they're waiting

782
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 2: for you in the living room at that age, what

783
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 2: age would you pick them?

784
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 3: Why?

785
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 1: I would take their current age, And the reason for

786
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,800
Speaker 1: that is I found every age to be equally awe

787
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 1: inspiring and fun and so and I'm sure that'll continue,

788
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 1: so their current age.

789
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 2: No matter how wonderful their current age is, and how

790
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 2: glad you are to be in the moment, what are

791
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 2: you looking forward to most as a dad?

792
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: Seeing them succeed at whatever they choose to devote themselves to,

793
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 1: seeing them make a mark on the world in some way,

794
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 1: you know. Seeing my oldest daughter, she recently did community

795
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: theater and it was important to her, and I've never

796
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: done any kind of theater, but seeing her get up

797
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 1: on the stage and sing and dance, it was just

798
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 1: remarkable to see how she had achieved what was important

799
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: for her. And so just watching them both pursue their

800
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,359
Speaker 1: goals and hopefully accomplish them on if not learning from

801
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: them and finding new ones something I look forward.

802
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:06,439
Speaker 3: To brilliant and the last question.

803
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 2: If you could go back to Ethan Cross as a

804
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 2: very young dad having one of those terribly tough moments,

805
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 2: with no experience at all as a parenting expert, and

806
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 2: maybe even without the PhD in Self control and psychology,

807
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 2: what advice would you give yourself.

808
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 1: I would to be less hard on myself and to

809
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: likewise remember that incredible mental time travel machine that we

810
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: all possess. I think when my kids were young and

811
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 1: parenting was new to me, you can get carried away

812
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 1: with what's happening and not knowing when, when will the

813
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 1: sleepless nights end and so forth, and so just knowing

814
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: that things will get better as time goes on would

815
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 1: have been powerful to have a reminder of back then.

816
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 2: Well, Ethan, it's just been an absolute pleasure to talk

817
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 2: with you. So grateful for your generous and your wisdom.

818
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 2: Thank you for being a part of the Parenting in

819
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 2: Perspective podcast.

820
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 1: Wonderful. Thank you so much. As what a fine conversation,

821
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 1: so I hope we can do it again.

822
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 3: Well, what a fascinating discussion.

823
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 2: I hope you've gotten some insight into Professor Ethan Cross

824
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:20,320
Speaker 2: as a result of this Parenting.

825
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 3: In Perspective podcast.

826
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 2: As I said at the beginning of the podcast, I

827
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 2: just love the fact that he's linked to this all

828
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 2: time classic marshmallow experiment and the work of Walter Mitchell,

829
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,399
Speaker 2: one of the most important psychologists of the modern era.

830
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 3: Just a quick reminder as well. I can't emphasize this enough.

831
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 2: And Ethan also made the point if you're going to

832
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 2: try that experiment on your own children, their destiny is

833
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 2: not linked directly to the decision that they make about

834
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 2: the marsh mellow.

835
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 3: What we want to do is make.

836
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 2: Sure that they learn how to self control better, because

837
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 2: the more self control they have in healthy doses.

838
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 3: The better it will be in their lives.

839
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 2: Okay, coming up next on the Parenting in Perspective podcast,

840
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 2: we're going to be talking about triumphing over adversity. So

841
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,799
Speaker 2: join me doctor Justin Coulson as I talk with one

842
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 2: of the most remarkable men that I've ever had the

843
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,800
Speaker 2: opportunity to speak with and his wife John and Amanda

844
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,320
Speaker 2: McLain as we discuss their life experiences.

845
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 4: So as an incomplete para pleagerer, I vividly remember waking

846
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:21,879
Speaker 4: up after coming out of the coma and being in

847
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 4: a world of pain. It's a bit about initially, why

848
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 4: me there? It's my life literally as gone. There's always

849
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 4: this internal dialogue around what am I going to do

850
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 4: with my life? My job? Wanted to be a fireman.

851
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 4: I mean, all these kind of reoccurring dark thoughts. Having

852
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 4: encouraging words from my father, from my brother, from my

853
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 4: doctor started to create shades of light to give me

854
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 4: hope moving forward.

855
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,839
Speaker 2: That's former triathlete and Australian Paralympic representative John McLean and

856
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 2: his wife Amanda, my next guests on the Parenting in

857
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 2: Perspective podcast, and.

858
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 3: It was always just before we wrap this up. Thank

859
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 3: you so very very.

860
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:02,799
Speaker 2: Much to a person who is known as doctor and

861
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 2: Mum of three who left a five star review on

862
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:07,359
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts.

863
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,320
Speaker 3: She said, cyscinct relevant and doable.

864
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 2: Enjoying these longer parenting and perspective conversations with relevant, educated

865
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:18,800
Speaker 2: experts or personalities. The short happy Families podcasts are brilliant

866
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 2: for quick car trips to work or for the reluctant,

867
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 2: often male partners in your life who would eat a

868
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 2: parenting book before reading one complete game changer justin thanks

869
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 2: and doctor and Mum of three, thank you so very

870
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 2: much for your five star rating. If you're enjoying the

871
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,800
Speaker 2: podcast and you reckon it's worth sharing with other people,

872
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 2: could you help out by doing what Doctor and Mum

873
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 2: of three has done and leave us that five star

874
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 2: review and a comment. Please the comments and the reviews

875
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 2: and the five star ratings they help other people to

876
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 2: find out about the podcast and find ways that they

877
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 2: can be more informed and make their families happier and

878
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,280
Speaker 2: more flourishing. And please tell your friends about the podcast.

879
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 2: Just share the link, get the word out.

880
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 3: We want to tell.

881
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 2: Everybody that we can about how cool the conversations are

882
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 2: that we're having.

883
00:46:57,760 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 3: Okay, let's wrap this up.

884
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 2: If you like more info on how I can help

885
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 2: your family flourish, particularly if you would like to have

886
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 2: ongoing monthly support via our amazing Happy Families memberships, you

887
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 2: can get all the info at Happyfamilies dot com dot

888
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:13,280
Speaker 2: au or visit my Facebook page, Doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families.

889
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 2: And as always, thank you very much to Justin Roland

890
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 2: for his work in producing the podcast and making it

891
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 2: sound just great. And thank you for listening to the

892
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 2: Parenting in Perspective podcast, a Happy Families podcast