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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the.

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Speaker 3: Time poor parent who just once answers.

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Speaker 4: Now, whatever reason they're doing it for, ultimately, what they're

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Speaker 4: trying to do is make this situation go away as

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Speaker 4: painlessly as they possibly can, so that we can just

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Speaker 4: get on.

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Speaker 2: With our lives again.

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Speaker 3: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 3: and dad.

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Speaker 2: You know that.

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Speaker 4: Every now and again, I love to use this podcast

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Speaker 4: as a platform to pretend that I'm still in radio

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Speaker 4: like I was twenty years ago. I mean, it was

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Speaker 4: a long time ago, but you know, I can't help

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Speaker 4: it every now and again.

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Speaker 3: I haven't lost it my own.

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Speaker 4: I know, but I just want to that the topic

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Speaker 4: of today's conversation, based on an email that we've received

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Speaker 4: from one of our listeners via podcasts at Happy Families

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Speaker 4: dot com. Dot makes me think of Billy Joel, but

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Speaker 4: it also makes me think.

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Speaker 2: Of Charles and Eddie.

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Speaker 4: But it also makes me think of the Mix. And

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Speaker 4: then there's that other song by Fleetwood, Matt and I

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Speaker 4: could keep on going, but they're the big ones. I

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Speaker 4: can't help myself because today's topic is, like I said,

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Speaker 4: in response to an email that we had from Emma,

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Speaker 4: who says, and I quote, we are having a lot

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Speaker 4: of trouble understanding why our eight year old is constantly lying.

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Speaker 4: It can be about absolutely trivial things or the very

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Speaker 4: age appropriate lies to get out of trouble. I find

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Speaker 4: it very hurtful, and unlike any of our other three

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Speaker 4: girls behavior, lying seems to be our biggest behavior challenge

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Speaker 4: with this daughter. Any strategies to help would be so

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Speaker 4: very appreciated. So Kylie, today we're having a conversation about

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Speaker 4: honesty and teaching our children not to lie. Let me

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Speaker 4: ask you this though, do you remember House? You remember

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Speaker 4: the TV show we used to watch House? Yeah, you

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Speaker 4: remember the one phrase rank doctor?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the cranky doctor.

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Speaker 4: Do you remember the one phrase He's actually pretty but

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Speaker 4: he had the great American accent, the whole ac throw.

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Speaker 4: I never knew till I heard him speaking in English

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Speaker 4: in British with the British accents. Hear him speaking with

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Speaker 4: the British accent, and I remember going, Wow, he really

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Speaker 4: does a good British accent. And then I discovered that

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Speaker 4: he's British and he was speaking with an American accent

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Speaker 4: in the series. But do you remember the one line

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Speaker 4: that he had about every patient.

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Speaker 2: That came in.

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Speaker 3: You don't remember, No, I don't.

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Speaker 2: He used to say. Everybody lies. The only variable is

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Speaker 2: but what do you believe it? Do you lie? Important question?

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Speaker 3: Do you not intentionally?

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Speaker 2: Really?

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Speaker 4: So you're saying that you unintentionally lie? We just you

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Speaker 4: accidentally say the wrong thing. You sound like one of

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Speaker 4: our children right now, I accidently light I didn't mean

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Speaker 4: to mislead you.

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Speaker 2: It just kind of did. It happened to be my advantage.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm reading some books and understanding that our perceptions

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Speaker 3: are quite skewed at times, Yes, in our efforts to

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Speaker 3: preserve ourselves.

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Speaker 4: Right, So what you're reading about his self deception the

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Speaker 4: way we don't just lie to other people, we actually

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Speaker 4: lie to ourselves.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but we believe it's truth because if we

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Speaker 3: don't believe it's true, then what.

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Speaker 2: Does that say about us?

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Speaker 3: That's exactly right.

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Speaker 4: So we don't actually believe it's truth, but we lie

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Speaker 4: to ourselves about the truth that it isn't so that

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Speaker 4: we can think that it is so that we can

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Speaker 4: feel good about ourselves, because otherwise would feel terrible about

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Speaker 4: ourselves because we're awful people. Is that what you're saying

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Speaker 4: yeah right, so 'p lifting you're glad that you listen

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Speaker 4: to this podcast morning. I reckon it would be fascinating

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Speaker 4: to do a challenge and see how long you can

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Speaker 4: go without lying, without a single lie escaping your lips.

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Speaker 2: I reckon it would be very, very hard to get through.

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Speaker 4: I was going to say a day, but I'm going

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Speaker 4: to suggest both you and I work pretty hard on

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Speaker 4: being transparent and honest and not shying away from hard conversations.

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Speaker 3: Look, everybody asks you how you're doing, and more times

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Speaker 3: than not, I'll.

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Speaker 4: Say fine, were you saying you're not fine?

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Speaker 3: No, often I'm not Why Why are you asking me? Why?

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Speaker 4: Why do you lie about how you're doing? I mean,

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Speaker 4: this is the whole thing with are you okay?

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Speaker 2: Day right? How you doing? Are you okay?

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Speaker 3: Because I don't have the capacity to have a conversation

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Speaker 3: with you right now, or I don't feel you're genuine

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Speaker 3: in your request to find out how I'm.

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Speaker 4: Doing okay, So it's timing, and it's also a feeling

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Speaker 4: of safety. Yeah, is there anything.

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Speaker 3: Else a concern about judgment?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Right, okay, which sort of ties back in with the

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Speaker 4: idea of safety. So I think if we're going to

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Speaker 4: answer Emma's question, we need to pause and consider.

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Speaker 2: Why we lie.

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Speaker 4: If House is right, if everybody lies, and if we

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Speaker 4: do deceive our own selves, then it's a really important consideration.

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Speaker 4: It's a really important question. And if we understand why

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Speaker 4: we lie, it can help us to then step into

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Speaker 4: the world of our children and get why they might

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Speaker 4: be lying.

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Speaker 2: So when you think.

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Speaker 4: About these little liars that we've got running around our

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Speaker 4: ankles every now and again, and Emma certainly is dealing

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Speaker 4: with one of her children, and I shouldn't talk about

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Speaker 4: our kids like that, because they're not just little lives,

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Speaker 4: they're also cherubs. Why do you think kids are most

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Speaker 4: likely to lie? Do you think that they're engaging in

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Speaker 4: self deception? Are they trying to preserve their identity in

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Speaker 4: the same way that you or I am?

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Speaker 3: No, I don't think they have the same cognition.

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Speaker 2: No, they don't. They don't, especially at the age of eight.

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Speaker 3: This is more about either being fearful of getting in.

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Speaker 4: Trouble, right, And so Emma said exactly that in her

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Speaker 4: email to us. She highlighted that specific issue. But why

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Speaker 4: else do you reckon they'd be lying?

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Speaker 3: Well, like, there's another thing they'd be concerned about as

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Speaker 3: a rupture in the relationship.

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Speaker 2: Yeah for sure. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So I tell mom that I've done this, and then

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Speaker 3: she gets angry at me, maybe she won't love me anymore.

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Speaker 4: So I would write that down as they're scared that

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Speaker 4: they won't be loved. Not only are they afraid that

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Speaker 4: they'll be in trouble, but they're scared that they will

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Speaker 4: become unlovable.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: A couple of other reasons that I can think of

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Speaker 4: that kids might lie to us.

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Speaker 2: One of them is.

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Speaker 4: When they think they've got this, Like I know I'm

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Speaker 4: in over my head, I know things aren't working out

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Speaker 4: so well.

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Speaker 2: I know that I've kind of just got red handed.

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Speaker 4: But I've got this, I've got it under control. I

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Speaker 4: can get my way through this. It's going to be okay.

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Speaker 4: I want to demonstrate my confidence, my capability. I want

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Speaker 4: to just be independent. I don't want interference from the

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Speaker 4: big people in my life. And so there's that line

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Speaker 4: where they think that they've got it, they think that

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Speaker 4: they can handle it, and then they end up in

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Speaker 4: deeper and deeper water as a result. And the other

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Speaker 4: reason that I think that our kids lie is because

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Speaker 4: we've taught them with all of our white lives, with

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Speaker 4: all of our hedging and fudging. Oh you can do

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Speaker 4: that on the weekend. I will come back here another time. No, no, no,

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Speaker 4: I wasn't on my phone doing that. I was doing

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Speaker 4: this instead. It's one of those important things that I

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Speaker 4: have to do, all of the little white lives that

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Speaker 4: we come up with. I'll be with you in two minutes.

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Speaker 4: I've just got to finish this thing, and I'll be

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Speaker 4: with you in two minutes. I think that we teach

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Speaker 4: them as well that honesty is not as valuable as

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Speaker 4: we sometimes make it.

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Speaker 2: Out to be.

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Speaker 4: So we've got, example, we've got afraid of being in trouble,

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Speaker 4: we've got afraid that they're not going to be loved,

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Speaker 4: and we've got the feeling that they've got it all together.

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Speaker 4: To me, when I read an email like Emma's, I

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Speaker 4: think to myself, this is probably why we've got an

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Speaker 4: eight year old who's telling FIBs constantly lying even about

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Speaker 4: the trivial things. I mean, it even makes more sense

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Speaker 4: with the trivial things, because they want to prove that

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Speaker 4: they've got this the control.

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Speaker 2: That they're big enough that they can handle it.

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Speaker 4: So they're gonna lie you might say it's cold outside,

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Speaker 4: and they'll say, well, I'm I'm really hot, even though

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Speaker 4: they've got goose pimples, goose goosebumps on their skin, goose pimples.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, do you not call them goose pimples goose pimples? Well,

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Speaker 1: I've heard people call them goose pimples, and I don't

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Speaker 1: know why, but I call them goose pimples. And I'm

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Speaker 1: not even telling a lie about it. So here's the thing, kylie.

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Speaker 1: Lying is actually a developmental achievement. We should be excited

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Speaker 1: when our kids can lie.

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Speaker 4: Tell me why, I'm just trying to put a positive

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Speaker 4: spin on it. Well, what it really shows is if

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Speaker 4: your child knows how to lie, it means that cognitively

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Speaker 4: they've gotten to a point where they know that they

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Speaker 4: can manipulate information. They can hold information that's different to

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Speaker 4: your information without passing that along. You see the world

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Speaker 4: differently with them. They're developing this thing that we call

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Speaker 4: theory of mind. Now, researchers argue that this difference in perception,

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Speaker 4: the ability to say I'm seeing it this way and

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Speaker 4: they're seeing it that way, and I get it, and

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Speaker 4: I can hold both of those perspectives At the same time,

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Speaker 4: researchers think that that comes in somewhere around four and

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Speaker 4: a half, five, maybe five and a half. But in

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Speaker 4: the last year or two that's been called into question.

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Speaker 4: And that's why we see kids doing really lousy lies

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Speaker 4: when they're only three, four, five, six, and the LN

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Speaker 4: becomes a bit more sophisticated when they get to eight, nine, ten,

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Speaker 4: because that theory of mind capacity is really.

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Speaker 2: Starting to embed itself. It's starting to build itself.

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Speaker 4: In to the child's way of being, the child's way

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Speaker 4: of thinking.

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Speaker 3: We actually had a pretty i'm going to say cool

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Speaker 3: experience because we actually watched this play out with the

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Speaker 3: kids the other week. One of our children had done

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Speaker 3: the wrong thing, but she recognized that if she owned

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Speaker 3: up to it, that she would probably get in a

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Speaker 3: bit more trouble than her little sister, and so she

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Speaker 3: convinced her little sister to take the blame, to.

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Speaker 2: Take the fall.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And her.

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Speaker 3: Little sister did it with so so much sincerity that

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Speaker 3: I believed her in spite of the fact that it

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Speaker 3: actually went against her nature to do what she was

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Speaker 3: saying that she had done. But she was just so

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Speaker 3: contrite and so apologetic for doing the wrong thing. And

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Speaker 3: it wasn't until we kind of sat back and went,

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Speaker 3: this doesn't make sense. And finally the bigger one, the

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Speaker 3: bigger one actually came and told us what had happened.

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Speaker 3: But like I said, it was cool because as I'm

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Speaker 3: looking at this and dissecting and we're having this conversation,

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Speaker 3: I'm watching I'm actually watching in real time those cognitive

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Speaker 3: wheels turning in each of the kid's minds as they

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Speaker 3: try to negate this challenging situation that they've found themselves

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Speaker 3: in and what is the best and most pain free

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Speaker 3: way to get through it right?

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Speaker 4: And that's ultimately where line is coming from. Whether it's

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Speaker 4: trying to prove that they can do something in their competent,

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Speaker 4: or trying to avoid loss of parental love, or whether

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Speaker 4: it's trying to avoid getting in trouble or whatever reason

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Speaker 4: they'd doing it for, Ultimately, what they're trying to do

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Speaker 4: is make this situation go away as painlessly as they

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Speaker 4: possibly can, so that we can just get on with

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Speaker 4: our lives again. I think that we need to talk

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Speaker 4: about how we can help our kids when they are

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Speaker 4: being dishonest, What conversations we need to have, how we

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Speaker 4: can guide them towards more integrity in the way they

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Speaker 4: engage with us.

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Speaker 3: Well, we already spoke about this situation on the podcast

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Speaker 3: a week or so ago, but the conversation we were

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Speaker 3: able to have with our daughter after she told the

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Speaker 3: truth yes, was such a powerful one because it reinforced

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Speaker 3: to her that no matter what she does, she's loved. Okay,

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Speaker 3: there is literally nothing she could do that would stop

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Speaker 3: us from loving her.

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Speaker 4: So if we step through what needs to happen, the

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Speaker 4: first thing I would say is we've got to keep

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Speaker 4: our emotions in check because there's something, at least for me,

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Speaker 4: something really I don't like the word triggering, but for me,

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Speaker 4: when it comes to dishonesty, it's probably the thing that

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Speaker 4: sets me off more than anything else.

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Speaker 3: Why do you think that's the case.

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Speaker 4: I don't know, but there's just something about I feel

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Speaker 4: as though we don't If we can't be honest in

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Speaker 4: our relationship, we don't have a relationship.

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Speaker 2: If you feel like you have to lie.

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Speaker 4: To me, it demonstrates that you don't think I'm going

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Speaker 4: to act in your best interest, or you have interests

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Speaker 4: that are deeply differentiated from mine. As a result of that,

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Speaker 4: we can't be on the same page. We can't be aligned.

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Speaker 3: But you're expecting an eight year old to think like

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Speaker 3: you think.

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Speaker 2: I know, that's a big call, isn't it.

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Speaker 4: But if I can help my eight year old to

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Speaker 4: trust me, and this is what I want Emma to

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Speaker 4: really emphasize here, if we can help our eight year

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Speaker 4: old to trust us, to know that we are there

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Speaker 4: to act in their best interests, then they will not

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Speaker 4: feel a need to lie to avoid getting in trouble.

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Speaker 4: They'll see us as their advocate, not their adversary. So

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Speaker 4: the only way that we can do that is to

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Speaker 4: stay level, calm, and cool even if they do lie.

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Speaker 3: So in most cases this will be probably actually not

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Speaker 3: dealing with it in the moment. Yes, for most of us,

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Speaker 3: we're not going to be calm, call and collected.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 4: We have a society wide expectation that people will tell

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Speaker 4: the truth. That's at the very core. I mean, trust

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Speaker 4: in a relationship makes everything work, It makes things more efficient.

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Speaker 4: When there's no trust, that's when you start getting lawyers

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Speaker 4: involved and everything gets costly, not just financially but emotionally

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Speaker 4: and socially. A lack of trust brings everything to a

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Speaker 4: grinding halt while we work out every single detail of

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Speaker 4: every single thing. And it's the same in our families.

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Speaker 4: When there's no trust. Our child says I want to

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Speaker 4: go and do this, and we say, well, tell me.

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Speaker 2: What that means. Where will you be, who will you

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Speaker 2: be with? How long will you be gone?

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Speaker 3: Now?

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Speaker 4: They might be normal questions to ask anyway, but we

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Speaker 4: start to interrogate. Rather than having a quick conversation to

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Speaker 4: check in that everything's okay, we start to really interrogate

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Speaker 4: the matter, really dive into the nitty gritty and pull

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Speaker 4: them up on any inconsistencies. When there's trust, you actually

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Speaker 4: you'll often let inconsistencies slide because you know that it

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Speaker 4: was just a slip of the tongue. It wasn't actually

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Speaker 4: anything meaningful. So if a child lies to your number one,

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Speaker 4: keep your emotions balanced.

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Speaker 2: Stay in check, keep it level.

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Speaker 4: It might mean you say, at the moment, I'm struggling

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Speaker 4: with the way this conversation is going. It doesn't seem

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Speaker 4: right to me. I'm going to step out until I

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Speaker 4: can take a big, deep breath and come back in integrity.

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Speaker 4: Telling the truth, being honest is really important in our family.

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Speaker 4: And you step out, another thing to do is that

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Speaker 4: perhaps you can let your children know that you understand

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Speaker 4: that they are struggling to understand the difference between what's

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Speaker 4: true and what they wish was true. So if they're

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Speaker 4: lying about something, instead of challenging them on it and saying,

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Speaker 4: why do you always have to lie? I think that

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Speaker 4: it's really reasonable to say you wish that was true,

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Speaker 4: don't you wouldn't it be fantastic if what is true

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Speaker 4: and what you wish were true, we're exactly the same thing.

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Speaker 4: What you wish though isn't how it actually is. And

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Speaker 4: you know that and I know that. And I found

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Speaker 4: that specific phrase to be really helpful in conversations with

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Speaker 4: the kids.

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Speaker 2: You know this and I know this.

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Speaker 4: It kind of just brings them back right here right now.

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Speaker 4: It's one of those things where that I don't go,

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Speaker 4: you don't know that, and I know something different.

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Speaker 2: They kind of.

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Speaker 4: Go, yeah, actually, I do know that, and I know

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Speaker 4: that you know that as well.

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Speaker 2: It helps soften all of that.

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Speaker 3: Well. In doing that, what you're actually giving them is

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Speaker 3: the empathy that they need, right instead of having them

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Speaker 3: feel like they have to justify the lie that they've told.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, another compassionate way to do that is, let's say

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Speaker 4: there's your treat, your treat that was in the fridge

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Speaker 4: that you've been saving for Sunday night, that special chocolate

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Speaker 4: that you were given as a gift. Suddenly it disappears

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Speaker 4: and the wrapping ends up in the bin. And what

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Speaker 4: you can say to your child when your child says,

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Speaker 4: I didn't eat it, and you've checked with everyone else

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Speaker 4: in the house, and you know that nobody else did.

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Speaker 4: It was only that child that was home, and it

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Speaker 4: somehow managed to get eaten in the time that you

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Speaker 4: were out, and that child was the only one at home.

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Speaker 4: You can just say something like, well, I've never seen

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Speaker 4: that happen before. I've never seen the chocolate eat itself

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Speaker 4: and put its wrapper in the bin when no one

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Speaker 4: else was home except for one person.

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Speaker 2: That's miraculous.

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Speaker 4: Like you can make light of it, you can keep

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Speaker 4: it nice and gentle, but you're sending a really clear

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Speaker 4: message I've never seen it happen before, because it just

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Speaker 4: doesn't stack up. There's no parsimonious reason for this to

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Speaker 4: have happened other than we've got some dishonesty. And I

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Speaker 4: think the most important thing, in spite of those fun

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Speaker 4: alternative ways of dealing with dishonesty. I think the most

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Speaker 4: important thing is just to explain the impact on the relationship.

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Speaker 4: When we do that really gently, really softly and kindly,

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Speaker 4: when we say to our kids, if you lie to me,

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Speaker 4: I can't believe you. If I can't believe you, we

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Speaker 4: don't have a relationship. I have to follow you everywhere,

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Speaker 4: I have to check up on you all the time.

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Speaker 4: It makes life hard for us all. When we explain

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Speaker 4: the impact on the relationship, the costs to the relationship,

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Speaker 4: our kids get it eventually, but more than anything, for

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Speaker 4: Emma and anyone else who's got a child who's lying,

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Speaker 4: it's important to highlight that so long as we treat

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Speaker 4: our child with love, with unconditionality, and continue to teach

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Speaker 4: them gently and patiently, they grow out of it. Lying

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Speaker 4: is to a very large degree an issue of age

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Speaker 4: and inexperience and immaturity, And as they become more experienced

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Speaker 4: and more mature, it's true that they'll still lie about

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Speaker 4: some stuff. Plenty of aodo lessons and plenty of adults

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Speaker 4: still lie about things, but the lies will not be

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Speaker 4: as destructive to relationships. If we get this right in

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Speaker 4: the early years.

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Speaker 3: For me, I think that regardless of what the challenge

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Speaker 3: is that we're having with our children, the number one

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Speaker 3: thing to focus on is the relationship. At the moment,

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Speaker 3: we're talking about lying, but it's actually about trust. That's right,

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Speaker 3: and everything that we I guess are challenged by with

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Speaker 3: our children comes down to having that relationship of trust,

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Speaker 3: a trust that you've got their best interest at heart,

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Speaker 3: that you love them no matter what, and that you're

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Speaker 3: going to do everything in your power to keep them safe.

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Speaker 3: And so if we can kind of just take the

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Speaker 3: heat of the lying and focus more heavily on the

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Speaker 3: relationship and building that sense of trust, then hopefully, over

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Speaker 3: time lying actually becomes obsolete. It no longer plays a

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Speaker 3: part in your relationship because your children just know.

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Speaker 2: Exactly well, Emma.

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Speaker 4: We really really do hope that this has been a

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Speaker 4: helpful conversation as we seek to offer some gentle guidance

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Speaker 4: in dealing with an eight year old who has a

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Speaker 4: flexible relationship with the truth. The Happy Family's podcast is

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Speaker 4: produced by Justin Rowland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 2: Craig Bruce is our

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Speaker 4: Executive producer, and for more information about making your family happier,

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Speaker 4: we'd love for you to join US at happy families

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Speaker 4: dot com dot au, or on our Facebook page at

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Speaker 4: doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families