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Speaker 1: We know this. A trio of Territorians were charged over

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Speaker 1: a multimillion dollar Commonwealth fraud scheme and they're now on

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Speaker 1: bail after appearing in court for the first time yesterday. Now,

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Speaker 1: we tried to speak to him yesterday but the timing

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Speaker 1: didn't quite work out, but he joins us on the

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Speaker 1: line now it is nt News journalist Harry Brill.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, Harry, Good morning, Kay, Good morning to your listeners.

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Speaker 1: Ate, thanks so much for your time this morning. And

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Speaker 1: I understand it was pretty intense in the courtroom yesterday.

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Speaker 1: Tell us what happened.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was, Actually it was super tense. So when

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Speaker 2: the morning kicked off, the Alligare spender's names weren't actually

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Speaker 2: on the coll list, so everyone rocked up the Dyle

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Speaker 2: and Local court on the belief that they were going

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Speaker 2: to be there, but it wasn't official. And then it's

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Speaker 2: sort of it's sort of just unfolded. So started off

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Speaker 2: with friends and family of the ques rocking up, and

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Speaker 2: then there was a big pack of federal agents that

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Speaker 2: rocked up. So pofs is uniformed and not uniformed. They

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Speaker 2: arrived and as soon as we're in the courthouse, it

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Speaker 2: could just sense that there was real high anticipation. Everyone

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Speaker 2: didn't know which court room they were going to be in.

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Speaker 2: We didn't know if they're want to split up. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was very intense and if anyone who's been style

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Speaker 2: on local court, you know it's a bit of a scramble.

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Speaker 2: But yesterday was quite exceptional.

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Speaker 1: So Harry talk us through what happened then as those

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Speaker 1: court proceedings got underway. From what I from what I

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Speaker 1: could read from your reporting, they did actually all three

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Speaker 1: were in court at the same time. Is that correct?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Correct, So they went one after the other. It

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Speaker 2: was quick succession. There was no mucking around. It was

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Speaker 2: a little bit of if you were sitting in the

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Speaker 2: body of the court, it felt a little bit like

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Speaker 2: deja voo because the statement of alleged facts, I understand

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Speaker 2: would read quite similar to one another, and joke Ball totally.

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Speaker 2: He acknowledged as much. But yeah, it basically started off

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Speaker 2: with mister Michael Buckley. He went first and he was

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Speaker 2: sort of the catalyst for the other two because Sam

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Speaker 2: and the Ledgebacks are the same and the conditions that

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Speaker 2: they were bailed on were the same. So it was

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Speaker 2: very quick. It was organized. The prosecution and the defense.

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Speaker 2: They clearly liaiged well and truly early so they could

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Speaker 2: get in and out as quickly as possible. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was very clean, very quick.

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Speaker 1: So Harry talk us through their bail conditions, so I

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Speaker 1: understand there's quite a few of them, and by the

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Speaker 1: sounds of it, fairly strect conditions.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it really was, I suppose not surprising given the allegations,

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Speaker 2: but they were very lengthy and as a reporter it

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Speaker 2: was very hard to keep up with. There was a

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Speaker 2: lot of keyboards being banged on by all the reporters

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Speaker 2: in there. But in the end there were more than

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Speaker 2: ten conditions that were laid, and a few of them

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Speaker 2: were I guess what you would regard as fairly generic

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Speaker 2: so be of good behavior. But then there were a

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Speaker 2: lot of niche conditions that were that were also imposed.

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Speaker 2: So for example, surrendering passports, you're only allowed to be

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Speaker 2: a possession of one mobile device once in card. You're

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Speaker 2: not allowed to be on encrypted messaging platforms, so think

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Speaker 2: you whatched up your signal, your telegram, and not to

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Speaker 2: communicate with any prosecution witnesses or persons of interests, and

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Speaker 2: that included fellow accused except in the case of missus Win.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, it was a very lengthy, very tight bail plan.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, Harry, have the AFP said anything more about

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Speaker 1: the investigation, given that they flagged that it was continuing

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Speaker 1: and that there could be more charges to come.

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Speaker 2: No, they haven't. They've been very very cagey, very tight lipped.

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Speaker 2: They've been prepared to shed light on I suppose the

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Speaker 2: big muscle movements of the investigation. They've been from the

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Speaker 2: outset quite quite clear that this is a large scale operation.

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Speaker 2: They have told us that this is ongoing. As you

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Speaker 2: mentioned that there's been more than more than eighty officers

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Speaker 2: so far involved, and that's and key word there is

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Speaker 2: so far because this is something that could drag on

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Speaker 2: for we don't know how long, so we will learn

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Speaker 2: more in the future. But the AP they've been very cagey,

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Speaker 2: and it's quite clear because for the last eight months,

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Speaker 2: when this investigation has been unraveling, it's just been business

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Speaker 2: as usual for MJ Builders. Yeah, you know, we've seen

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Speaker 2: all the activities that they've been involved in those last

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Speaker 2: eight months. You wouldn't think that a building company like

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Speaker 2: that would be would be getting combed over. So look,

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Speaker 2: they'd be very cagy and I don't think they want

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Speaker 2: to want to compromise anything that they're doing regarding this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no doubt, you know, particularly if those investigations are ongoing.

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Speaker 1: So Harry, when are we expecting the trio back in

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Speaker 1: court now? And you know, any idea sort of what

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Speaker 1: will happen next.

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Speaker 2: Well, Look, it's going to be a pretty it's going

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Speaker 2: to be a very long Christmas for for everyone who's

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Speaker 2: interested in this. They're going to be back in February

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Speaker 2: and that's going to be for a preliminary examination mentioned

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Speaker 2: so for those out there who are unfamiliar with that, Basically,

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Speaker 2: it's just an opportunity for the party to sit down

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Speaker 2: before before the judge and go through some of the

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Speaker 2: evidence that's been tabled, identify any issues pertain to their

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Speaker 2: legal matters, see if a plea can or can't be entered,

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Speaker 2: things like that. So, look, we've still got some the

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Speaker 2: long road ahead of us in this. And Judge ball

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Speaker 2: Tolly himself, he acknowledged that he said it's likely this

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Speaker 2: we will go to Supreme Court. So look, we are

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Speaker 2: we are very much still in the first phase of its.

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Speaker 1: Entire And Harry, I know you mentioned a little earlier. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: those agreed facts that you know that we discussed yesterday,

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Speaker 1: and you know there will be further evidence tabled, no

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Speaker 1: doubt about it. You know, if this investigation is still

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Speaker 1: underway and it's been eight months in the making, was

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Speaker 1: there much further detail shared in terms of when you

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Speaker 1: heard those agreed facts? I suppose other than what we

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Speaker 1: already you know, what we'd already been told in the

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Speaker 1: sense you know that we're talking sort of seventy one

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Speaker 1: million dollars.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately, No, and this is this is a great mystery

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Speaker 2: that's eating away at all of us. So all we

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Speaker 2: know is what we what we heard from from the

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Speaker 2: get go, which is that this is seventy one million

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Speaker 2: dollars pertaining to Commonwealth money, so Department of Defense. Probably

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Speaker 2: something of note is that the aff said it pertains

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Speaker 2: to contracts. So what we do know is this is

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Speaker 2: there's more than one contract that's supposedly made up this

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Speaker 2: seventy one million, But no, they have not spoken to

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Speaker 2: specifically what contracts, what projects. It's it's killing us as

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Speaker 2: reporters because obviously we'd love to know as much as

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Speaker 2: your listeners would. But this is stuff that we expect

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Speaker 2: to unravel in the coming months, and perhaps they PEE

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Speaker 2: themselves will bring this to light as well as their

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Speaker 2: investigation on folds. But yeah, I think noting you know

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Speaker 2: how how import this investigation is, the AFP will probably

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Speaker 2: want less ed on this than not. Ye. I think

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Speaker 2: they themselves are still trying to figure out how deep

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Speaker 2: this goes. So it's all.

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Speaker 1: Very raw, keeping their cards close to their chest, no

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Speaker 1: doubt about it, particularly when you're talking about such a

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Speaker 1: huge alleged sum of money. Harry, before I let you go,

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Speaker 1: I know that M and J Builders did send out

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Speaker 1: a statement yesterday to their contractors and too, I'm presuming

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Speaker 1: to their staff as well. I'll take our listeners through

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Speaker 1: that a bit later. Have you guys have any reporters

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Speaker 1: from the NT and you've sort of been out there

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Speaker 1: to see whether they are sort of business as usual

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Speaker 1: at this point in time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So one of our reporters, Bodihood, she actually did

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Speaker 2: pass by M and J yesterday. It looks business as usual.

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Speaker 2: Bo I won't speak on her behalf, but a report

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Speaker 2: that she did issue was that it just looked like

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Speaker 2: it was another day on the WORKID. Obviously it rained out,

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Speaker 2: but people were in their in their gear, they were

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Speaker 2: in their kid they in their vehicles. It looked like

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Speaker 2: operations are still underway.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and you know it would be tough going

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Speaker 1: for the staff, for contractors, everybody involved in those different projects.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk a little bit more about, you know,

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Speaker 1: about what this means, I guess, to the building and

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Speaker 1: construction industry. In a few minutes time, we'll catch up

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Speaker 1: with Master Builders. But Harry Brill really appreciate your time

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Speaker 1: this morning, and appreciate your insight from yesterday as well.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk to you again soon.