1 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 2 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: used by the world's most successful people to get so 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imbat. 4 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 5 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work day. 6 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: This episode is another my favorite tip episode. The title 7 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: is probably pretty self explanatory. It's about my favorite tip 8 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: from each of the interviews I conduct. So the extract 9 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: I have for you today is from my chat with 10 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: Paul Migliorini. Paul leads the Amazon Web Services business across 11 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: Australia and New Zealand, a role that he has been 12 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: in for the last four years. Prior to joining AWS, 13 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: Paul held leadership roles in Asia and Australia with BT Motorola, 14 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: Regis and Ernest and Young, and was most recently the 15 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: CEO for Regis an z and Regional Managing Director for 16 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: South Asia at BT. 17 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 2: SO. 18 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 1: I love the full interview I had with Paul and 19 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 1: learning all about how things are done at Amazon, but 20 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: in this particular extract we get into talking about why 21 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: Amazon bands PowerPoint dex and what they do instead. So 22 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: on that note, let's head to Paul to hear more 23 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: about not using PowerPoint anymore. I want to come back 24 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: to the six page narrative because I had heard that 25 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: power points are banned. 26 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 2: Was that hard? 27 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: By the way, I imagine in your pre Amazon or 28 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: pre a WUS life, you would have created lots of PowerPoint? 29 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: What was that like getting that up? 30 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 2: In actual fact, I used to be a management consultant, 31 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 2: so I lived in PowerPoint for a long time, and 32 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 2: so I thought I would struggle with it. Actually, but 33 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 2: it became a big It took a long time. And 34 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 2: because it's not it's not a natural thing. A lot 35 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 2: of people don't spend time writing long form documents in 36 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 2: any company, and so actually it's a learned skill and 37 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 2: it just takes a bit of practice. And you know, 38 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 2: so we use long form narrative for most things. So 39 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 2: for instance, when we do an interview, we'll write our 40 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 2: notes up as long form narrative. We don't use bullet points. 41 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 2: We just write them up as long form narrative. And 42 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 2: so you just become very practiced at it. And so 43 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 2: what I find is now it's just it's so useful. 44 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 2: I just couldn't imagine operating without them now actually, because 45 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 2: because of the level of rigor and depth you get 46 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 2: to and when you're writing one, what I find is 47 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 2: I probably write maybe six or seven of them a year, 48 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 2: are long form, six pages, and when you're writing them, 49 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 2: it gives you exceptional clarity because you really have to. 50 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 2: It forces you to be quite rigorous and to think 51 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 2: things through deeply, So both in terms of consuming it 52 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 2: in terms of getting people into the same page and 53 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:47,959 Speaker 2: writing them, it's really really useful mechanism. And so I 54 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 2: thought it'd be a lot harder than it was, to 55 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 2: be frank, and it wasn't at all. 56 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: Like I imagine when you say narrative, I imagine something 57 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: reading like a short story. Is that the right interpretation? Yeah? 58 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, six page form narrative, full sentences. 59 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: No dot points, no dot points, beginning, middle and end 60 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: with data waven in. 61 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 2: Black and white. You know. Yeah. 62 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: Wow. 63 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 2: You can have lots of appendencies, by the way, and 64 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 2: so some people do. 65 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: I never do. 66 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 2: But you see these documents that are so well, but 67 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 2: you don't have to read them, and that's the rule. 68 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 2: And so again it's a forcing function. So people have them, 69 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 2: but you're not expected to read them, so you need 70 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 2: to write the document with a view that the apendicies 71 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 2: may not be read. 72 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: How long does it take to write one of. 73 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 2: It kind of depends. It depends. So like I sit 74 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: down and write, you know, a kind of a document 75 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 2: that summarizes our as business once a year, and I 76 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 2: take a lot of time on that, because you know, 77 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 2: I really go deep in every part of the business 78 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 2: and thin deeply about it. So maybe that's you know, 79 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 2: fifty or sixty hours of my time to write that. Equally, 80 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: I've written docs that I can do, you know, in 81 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 2: an afternoon in three or four hours, that aren't perhaps 82 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 2: as deep or kind of analytical as the broader docks. 83 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 2: So it just kind of depends. You just get very 84 00:03:58,120 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: good at writing them. Some of them are quick to write, 85 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 2: others take a lot longer. 86 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: Are you taught how to write? Because I feel like 87 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: the ability to write, and particularly the ability to write 88 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: pros is a lost skill. Does Amazon give you training? 89 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 2: We do have narrative writing courses and so it's totally optional. 90 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 2: So if people want coaching on it, you can get 91 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 2: you can get coaching. And then there's what you do 92 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 2: find to your point is there's a bunch of people 93 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 2: who are just really good at it, and they invariably 94 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 2: become coaches to everyone else as well. I'm not one 95 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 2: of those people. 96 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: So how did you get better at it? I assume 97 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: that you've improved at it during your time here. 98 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 2: It's just practicing conditioning. You just get good at it. 99 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 2: You consume a lot of them, you know, you write 100 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 2: a lot of them. You just get good at it. 101 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 2: I think moderately competent, I would describe probably not good. 102 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just I'm fascinated by that. I feel like 103 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: there'd be you know, people listening to this going, ah, 104 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: do away with powerpoints. But then I feel like with 105 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: the amount of time and rigor that's going into a 106 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: six page narrative, and I assume that they don't have 107 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 1: to be six pages, but that's just the limit, that's right. 108 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: And I assume that they are like font sized guidelines, 109 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: so you're just going eight point five. 110 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 2: Ten point font minimum. There's hard rules around margin sizes 111 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 2: and line spacing the whole lot, because you know, you 112 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 2: could imagine every trick in the book has been tried. 113 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 114 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 2: You know that this notion of a forcing function is 115 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 2: an interesting one that the idea that it's a fixed 116 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: six pages is really useful as well, because you know, 117 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 2: I know that Andy writes a six pager on AWS 118 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 2: each year for Jeff and I sit there and going, 119 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 2: you know, Gollie, how would you fit an entire business 120 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 2: into six pages? And you know when I struggle to 121 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 2: do the am Z business, and I know ed when 122 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 2: who runs our APEC business does the same. And it's 123 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 2: a super forcing function because it does force you to 124 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 2: synthesize your messaging into a coherent six page narrative. You 125 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 2: can't just waffle on forever, and you've got to get 126 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 2: to the important points and you've got to you've got 127 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 2: to make it constructive and really focused, And so that 128 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 2: becomes useful as well. 129 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: I imagine that must be a beautiful time saving device because 130 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: I feel like like that much thought does not go 131 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: into PowerPoint dex and there's often a lot of unnecessary. 132 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 2: Totally yeah, where is this? 133 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: It's all It's all there. And I want to pick 134 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: back up on what you said about how within the 135 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: meeting is when people will actually read the narrative. 136 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 2: Is that right? 137 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: So that's kind of time blocked out for reading. 138 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 2: Normally, what happens is you take you read in silence 139 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 2: for the first fifteen to twenty minutes of the meeting, 140 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 2: and everyone reads in silence, and again there's a bunch 141 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 2: of protocols around that, and what are they We just 142 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 2: complete silence because people are focused on it and concentrating 143 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 2: on their docks, so you know, just being respectful around 144 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 2: those is important. So it's quite funny, Like it's really 145 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 2: it feels very unnatural when you first joined that. Everyone 146 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 2: sits down and you know, Hi, how are you? And 147 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 2: let's read a dock and you sit there in silence 148 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 2: for twenty minutes and read a dock. I find it 149 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 2: so super useful because you do get this situation where 150 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 2: often what happens, particularly with PowerPoint, is you've get people 151 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 2: that are just wonderful communicators and can communicate really well 152 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 2: and present really well. Often that can cover a lot 153 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 2: of sins. And the reverse is also true. You get 154 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 2: people that are poor communicators who can't get a point 155 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 2: across well, but actually what they're saying is really important, 156 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 2: and that's kind of I think that's potentially very risky 157 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 2: in a lot of companies. What you want to do 158 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 2: is get the right message, and because you've got time 159 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 2: to construct it well, and a narrative typically what happens, 160 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 2: and it's not always the case. You know, invariably, if 161 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 2: you've get a poorly written narrative, you know you don't 162 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 2: get a great quality outcome. But when it's well written, 163 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 2: getting everyone to the same page with the same data 164 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 2: set at the end of that twenty minutes is really powerful. 165 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 2: Because the other thing that happens with PowerPoint is you'll 166 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 2: have someone who has say an hour, and they'll spend 167 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 2: forty five minutes of that hour presenting a pack and 168 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 2: you've got a bunch of questions for each of each 169 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 2: of the pages, so you can stop and ask questions, 170 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,239 Speaker 2: and often you don't get to a really clean endpoint 171 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 2: because you're debating different things and it leads a lot 172 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 2: to interpretation. So often find that you just don't get 173 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 2: as cleaner an outcome, which means it actually takes a 174 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 2: lot longer because you're reving through things a lot more. 175 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 2: That doesn't seem to happen as much. 176 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I do like the fact that it really takes 177 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: out a lot of the bias. Is that you know, 178 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: if you've got the gift of the gab, you can 179 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: sell most things through a PowerPoint deck and the reverse 180 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: is true. But also I like the fact that the 181 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: ratios of consuming information versus talking about the information is 182 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: really different here because you're not just like in passive 183 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: mode listening to a PowerPoint presentation. You're actively reading and 184 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: processing something. That must make for a very different quality 185 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: of discussions. 186 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 2: I think, so, yeah, invariably it does. 187 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: Hello there, that is it for today's episode. I hope 188 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: you found it useful. And maybe if you know someone 189 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: who is feeling a little bit deaf by powerpointing, you 190 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: might want to share this episode with them. They might 191 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: find it interesting and get some new ideas from it. 192 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: And if you're enjoying how I work, why not leave 193 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: a review. It is like the most awesome thing getting 194 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: feedback from listeners. I love it, and thank you hugely 195 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: to the hundreds of people who have left reviews. It 196 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: is so appreciated. So that is it for today's show, 197 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: and I will see you next time.