1
00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,880
Speaker 1: It's the Will Woody podcast. Everybody here.

2
00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:11,360
Speaker 2: Wow, that's that's that's amazing. Hello, Sam, Hey, Hey, good

3
00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:16,160
Speaker 2: thank you Sam. Yes, I don't really know what to start.

4
00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:17,200
Speaker 1: He's going on.

5
00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:21,760
Speaker 3: But before we start, Sam, So, I've actually surprised Will

6
00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:23,760
Speaker 3: here with you.

7
00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:27,240
Speaker 2: In no uncertain terms.

8
00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,200
Speaker 3: Will worships you.

9
00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:34,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm a surprised kidess you didn't know I was coming.

10
00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:39,400
Speaker 2: No, I had no idea. No, just seeing you for

11
00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:41,120
Speaker 2: the first time. Yeah.

12
00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:42,200
Speaker 1: Well, nice to meet you, guys.

13
00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:44,760
Speaker 2: Pleasure to meet you too, Pleasure to meet you. What

14
00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:45,760
Speaker 2: do you want to take the reins here?

15
00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,920
Speaker 3: I'm a little bit absolutely yeah, sure, absolutely, okay, Will,

16
00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,720
Speaker 3: So I have organized for you someone who you I

17
00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:55,680
Speaker 3: don't want to use the word idolize or worship, but

18
00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:56,880
Speaker 3: you really look up to this person.

19
00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:57,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

20
00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:59,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, you love the way they explain things. You spoke,

21
00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:03,960
Speaker 3: You teach me things that Sam Harris teaches you on,

22
00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,319
Speaker 3: stuff such as free Will You actually talked about his

23
00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,080
Speaker 3: app to me Waking Up, which I use every single

24
00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,320
Speaker 3: morning now. But if anyone listening doesn't know who I'm

25
00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,000
Speaker 3: speaking of when I say Sam Harris, I believe we've

26
00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,160
Speaker 3: put together an opener. As you may have just heard

27
00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,160
Speaker 3: Our next guest is Sam Harris, and no not the

28
00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:25,640
Speaker 3: Some Harris from sales.

29
00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,160
Speaker 2: Author, neural scientists, philosopher and.

30
00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:33,000
Speaker 1: Podcast extraw and hair to say, Will's a big fun

31
00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:34,480
Speaker 1: would be in on this statement.

32
00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,119
Speaker 2: Quite frankly, I need to be quiet so.

33
00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:38,360
Speaker 4: We can get on with this chat.

34
00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,160
Speaker 2: Please welcome to the show Some Harris.

35
00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:46,959
Speaker 3: So without further ado, will I give you mister Sam Harris?

36
00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,680
Speaker 2: Yes, Hey Sam, how's it going?

37
00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,760
Speaker 1: Happy to be here? One point of order. If you're

38
00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,000
Speaker 1: recording this, what I'm seeing as a giant blank screen,

39
00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:03,360
Speaker 1: the speaker view is not populating to the name frame

40
00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,680
Speaker 1: and so I don't know if if you're seeing something

41
00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,280
Speaker 1: similar on your side. But I don't know what you're

42
00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:10,959
Speaker 1: gonna do with the video, but you might want to.

43
00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,679
Speaker 1: We can see you're not getting thumbnails.

44
00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,520
Speaker 2: We've got you. Yeah, we've got you, Sam, But you

45
00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:19,519
Speaker 2: can't see the boys. I'll try and.

46
00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:22,120
Speaker 1: Well I can see I can see the two of

47
00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,840
Speaker 1: you that I can't see Joel. But I'm just saying

48
00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,959
Speaker 1: what appears to be pinned. What appears to be pinned

49
00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,480
Speaker 1: on my screen in the biggest like, it's this ninety

50
00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,560
Speaker 1: five percent of the screen, and it's not something I'm controlling.

51
00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:35,600
Speaker 1: Is it just a black field?

52
00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,280
Speaker 4: Oh shure, that's not something you haven't got it on

53
00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,760
Speaker 4: a particular view down your end. If you click gallery

54
00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,160
Speaker 4: view down your end on zoom, it might change it

55
00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:44,560
Speaker 4: up for you.

56
00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,680
Speaker 1: Or I just want to that's right. Make sure well

57
00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,360
Speaker 1: if you if you guys are seeing something that looks

58
00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:54,200
Speaker 1: good on your side as you're recording it, then then

59
00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:58,440
Speaker 1: you're probably fine. But yeah, whatever reason, I've got no control.

60
00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,079
Speaker 4: Okay, a full screen hour in that you can't see

61
00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:02,480
Speaker 4: you can't see gallery can you see?

62
00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:04,880
Speaker 2: You can see me waving, but maybe just very small

63
00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:05,160
Speaker 2: I'm just.

64
00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I can see you in in tiny

65
00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,320
Speaker 1: thumbnail mode. Are on the top right perfectly? Are we

66
00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:11,760
Speaker 1: on the top right of the screen there for you?

67
00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:13,760
Speaker 1: You should be able to press gallery view if you

68
00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,440
Speaker 1: slide the cursor up, you'll say, speak of you and

69
00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,840
Speaker 1: gallery view in the top right hand corner. Yeah, for

70
00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,760
Speaker 1: some reason, it's not uh oh hold on, yeah, you

71
00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,440
Speaker 1: just got covered by my okay, now now we're all

72
00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:31,160
Speaker 1: over the place and four quadrants. It's fine, yeah, okay.

73
00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,079
Speaker 2: All right, oh yeah, okay, well let's give that a guy.

74
00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:34,360
Speaker 2: You okay with that?

75
00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:38,320
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, I'm just gonna move this just so that

76
00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:40,320
Speaker 1: I I'm actually looking at the center of the screen

77
00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:45,119
Speaker 1: more than Okay, that's going to be fine, Okay, right,

78
00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,360
Speaker 1: Sorry about that. No, I didn't want you to record

79
00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,960
Speaker 1: a black screen. So that's it's thanks Mane, I can

80
00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,120
Speaker 1: I can adjust my brain to this condition.

81
00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,720
Speaker 4: Christ that's good tonight. Well, look, I don't really know

82
00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,960
Speaker 4: what it's not. I I'm yeah, my name is Will.

83
00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,960
Speaker 4: About seven or eight years ago, I was very depressed,

84
00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,160
Speaker 4: and I saw a lot of psychologists and a lot

85
00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,280
Speaker 4: of people trying to figure out what was going on

86
00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:16,440
Speaker 4: in my brain. And I bumped into an interview a

87
00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,560
Speaker 4: chance podcast that you did with Joseph Goldstein, who knows

88
00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:22,400
Speaker 4: a very good friend of yours, called The Path and

89
00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:24,240
Speaker 4: the Goal, which is sort of very much at the

90
00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,240
Speaker 4: beginning of the Waking Up podcast when you started that,

91
00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,080
Speaker 4: and I was actually on a plane with Woody when

92
00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,479
Speaker 4: I heard that, and it just I had a just

93
00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:34,719
Speaker 4: the way that you were describing what you were talking about,

94
00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:38,159
Speaker 4: I had a complete out of body experience, which I

95
00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,760
Speaker 4: know is not uncommon when you hear that sort of language,

96
00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:43,120
Speaker 4: and it just rang a bell for me, which I

97
00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:48,880
Speaker 4: sort of began me on a path down meditation, and yeah,

98
00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,520
Speaker 4: I constantly used you as a as a reference point,

99
00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:53,320
Speaker 4: got your app waking up as well.

100
00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,200
Speaker 2: And really I've been.

101
00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:57,520
Speaker 4: Thinking about what I wanted to say to you, but

102
00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,760
Speaker 4: I really just wanted to say thank you because you

103
00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:05,880
Speaker 4: actually changed my relationship with myself and have made me

104
00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:07,360
Speaker 4: so much happier for that.

105
00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,240
Speaker 1: So just that, oh, nice, nice, well, very happy to

106
00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,600
Speaker 1: hear it. So so had you been practicing meditation before

107
00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:13,920
Speaker 1: that or was it introduction to.

108
00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:14,280
Speaker 2: Not at all?

109
00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,520
Speaker 4: Not at all that well, like a little bit, but

110
00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,280
Speaker 4: not certainly not into a partner. And then after that

111
00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,600
Speaker 4: I did a ten day retreat and then then I

112
00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,360
Speaker 4: worked and now really really enjoying the non dualistic model

113
00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,520
Speaker 4: that you're kind of preaching on the app.

114
00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,440
Speaker 2: And yeah, it gains.

115
00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,480
Speaker 4: It's totally life changing for anyone that doesn't anything about it.

116
00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,080
Speaker 4: It really did change, as I said, my relationship with myself.

117
00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:38,960
Speaker 4: And I feel like you're just kind of responsible for

118
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,880
Speaker 4: a series of very relieving moments in my life after

119
00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,359
Speaker 4: you read After I read Free Will as well, and

120
00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:47,440
Speaker 4: I don't know why I find that relieving, but just

121
00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:49,640
Speaker 4: kind of not knowing that I am Actually.

122
00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,200
Speaker 1: Some people find it anything but relieving. Yes, them a

123
00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:54,800
Speaker 1: polarizing topic. Album.

124
00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:56,680
Speaker 3: My hand up there, because we'll often talks to me

125
00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:58,440
Speaker 3: about the book. He's actually given me the book. I

126
00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:00,440
Speaker 3: haven't read the book yet, Sam, But can you sort

127
00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,080
Speaker 3: of if you can try to summarize to me and

128
00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:08,680
Speaker 3: everyone listening the idea behind us not having any free will?

129
00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,080
Speaker 1: Well, you know, a lot turns on what you mean

130
00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,719
Speaker 1: by free will, But what I think most people mean

131
00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:18,640
Speaker 1: by it is the sense that if you rewound the

132
00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,640
Speaker 1: movie of your life. You know, if we rewound this

133
00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,000
Speaker 1: conversation to a few seconds ago or a few minutes ago,

134
00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,719
Speaker 1: we each of us could decide to behave differently. You

135
00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,960
Speaker 1: could think different thoughts, you could say different things, And

136
00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:34,800
Speaker 1: so it is for every moment in your life. And

137
00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:38,320
Speaker 1: this is the basis, the real, durable basis of regret

138
00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:44,239
Speaker 1: and shame and and for directed at oneself and hatred

139
00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,520
Speaker 1: of other people, because when you see people doing terrible

140
00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:48,960
Speaker 1: things in the world, you have the sense that they

141
00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,839
Speaker 1: should be doing otherwise right and that they are the

142
00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:58,080
Speaker 1: true authors of their actions. And a lot moves when

143
00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,239
Speaker 1: you when you realize that this is an illusion. Not

144
00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,640
Speaker 1: not everything changes, but some important things change, and most

145
00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:10,119
Speaker 1: importantly for me, the the psychological basis for hatred, both

146
00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,080
Speaker 1: of oneself and others, goes out the window. But so

147
00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,920
Speaker 1: the reason to doubt that that free will of this

148
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,560
Speaker 1: form exists is pretty simple. It's just that there's no

149
00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,400
Speaker 1: account of causality that makes sense of it. I mean,

150
00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:30,280
Speaker 1: I either your your behavior, your thoughts, your intentions, and

151
00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,920
Speaker 1: your subsequent actions in this moment are determined by the

152
00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,119
Speaker 1: prior state of the universe, you know, most importantly your brain,

153
00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:43,000
Speaker 1: or they're random, or there's some combination of of you know,

154
00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:48,600
Speaker 1: determined you know, clockwork and randomness. But in either case,

155
00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,800
Speaker 1: however you turn those dials, there's no basis for the

156
00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,240
Speaker 1: idea that you could have done other than you did

157
00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,480
Speaker 1: a moment ago, you know, So like the idea like

158
00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:59,240
Speaker 1: if if I ask you to, you know, just pick

159
00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,680
Speaker 1: a memory, any memory, and you just remember something right now.

160
00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,040
Speaker 1: You don't the first there is this moment where you

161
00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:09,160
Speaker 1: haven't thought of anything yet, and then just something arrives.

162
00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,520
Speaker 1: You know, you think of of, you know, a conversation

163
00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:12,960
Speaker 1: you had earlier in the day, or you think of

164
00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,600
Speaker 1: a movie you saw, but you don't you can't think

165
00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,200
Speaker 1: the thought before it simply appears, and you have no

166
00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,240
Speaker 1: control over what appears. I mean, you just don't. You

167
00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,840
Speaker 1: literally do not know what you're going to think next. Yeah,

168
00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,720
Speaker 1: and therefore you don't know what you're going to intend

169
00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:32,400
Speaker 1: to do next or decide next. And and all of this,

170
00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:34,800
Speaker 1: you know, makes perfect sense biologically. I mean, you didn't.

171
00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:36,760
Speaker 1: You didn't pick your parents, you didn't pick your genes,

172
00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,000
Speaker 1: you didn't pick all of the influences that that played

173
00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:44,760
Speaker 1: upon your your hardware to produce your you know, the

174
00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,520
Speaker 1: very last state of your brain that became the basis

175
00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:50,440
Speaker 1: for the next thought or the next intention or the

176
00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,360
Speaker 1: next action. And so from the point of view of

177
00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,000
Speaker 1: the experience or from just you know, witnessing what it's

178
00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,960
Speaker 1: like to be you in each moment, just mean, just

179
00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,440
Speaker 1: the conscious awareness that is illumined, that is illuminating your

180
00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,000
Speaker 1: experience in this moment. From that point of view, everything

181
00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,160
Speaker 1: is just appearing, you know, every like it's just like

182
00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:12,880
Speaker 1: the next sound. You don't know what the next sound

183
00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,560
Speaker 1: is going to be, and it just it just lands

184
00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,679
Speaker 1: on your ear drum and you notice it to whatever

185
00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:19,680
Speaker 1: you do, and you don't know what the next thought

186
00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:21,559
Speaker 1: is going to be, and you don't know what your

187
00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:25,280
Speaker 1: next feeling is going to be and you know, meditation

188
00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,840
Speaker 1: is is a a way of recognizing that and feeling

189
00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:34,480
Speaker 1: the freedom that is available when you give up this

190
00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:39,760
Speaker 1: illusion of kind of a self based control of experience.

191
00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:41,320
Speaker 1: Now that's not that's not to say that everything goes

192
00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:43,680
Speaker 1: out the window. It's not like, you know, you become

193
00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:48,120
Speaker 1: a fatalist or you just have to there's no role

194
00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,360
Speaker 1: for choice or effort in your life. There is, but again,

195
00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:55,360
Speaker 1: your choices and efforts are still mysterious. You can't know

196
00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,760
Speaker 1: why you chose one thing over the other, no matter

197
00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:00,959
Speaker 1: how laborious you make the che You just go back

198
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,640
Speaker 1: and forth between you know, should I have pizza or

199
00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,079
Speaker 1: should I have pasta? You could? You could? You cause

200
00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,160
Speaker 1: you can think about that for an hour. Yeah, but

201
00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:13,080
Speaker 1: if you finally land on pizza, that final decision is

202
00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,120
Speaker 1: in fact mysterious. And if you land on pizza and

203
00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:17,520
Speaker 1: then the last second say oh no, it's going to

204
00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,520
Speaker 1: be pasta, the fact that that that final pivot arose

205
00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:22,640
Speaker 1: is a mysterious.

206
00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:23,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

207
00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,480
Speaker 4: And I think the I think the thing is that

208
00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,880
Speaker 4: we're talking about before initially was a lot of people

209
00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:30,360
Speaker 4: would see this is really scary.

210
00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,079
Speaker 2: This you know, this sense of free fall.

211
00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,959
Speaker 4: But something that I heard recently the guy that wrote

212
00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,480
Speaker 4: zen Habits which really resonated with me, who was also

213
00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,280
Speaker 4: I heard on the Waking Up app was he said

214
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:47,960
Speaker 4: that level of uncertainty the witnesses the zen Witticism is

215
00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:52,480
Speaker 4: is it's like there's no parachute, but then the reality

216
00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,360
Speaker 4: is there's also no ground, Like you can kind of

217
00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:00,840
Speaker 4: fall back into that state where if you let go

218
00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,360
Speaker 4: of the idea that you might be controlling something, then

219
00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:08,080
Speaker 4: it's actually quite liberating to watch and be and be

220
00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,280
Speaker 4: witnessed to it and part of it ultimately, rather than

221
00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:13,480
Speaker 4: trying to control it, which I feel very relieving because

222
00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,679
Speaker 4: I wasn't feeling and feel like I was fighting something anymore,

223
00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:17,720
Speaker 4: just accepting that it was sort of part of me

224
00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,240
Speaker 4: and and letting it be, which is huge.

225
00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,319
Speaker 1: Well, so much of our psychological suffering is born of

226
00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:29,000
Speaker 1: this illusion of control and this feeling of resistance to experience.

227
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:33,480
Speaker 1: And we feel, you know, an emotion arise, like anxiety

228
00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:38,760
Speaker 1: or anger or or something unpleasant, and not only do

229
00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,720
Speaker 1: we feel the unpleasantness of the emotion, we feel this

230
00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:48,440
Speaker 1: resistance to it. And this so so much of meditation practice,

231
00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,440
Speaker 1: you know, in particular mindfulness practice is just a matter

232
00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:57,480
Speaker 1: of recognizing that the suffering component of even physical pain

233
00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,040
Speaker 1: is largely a matter of resist existing it psychologically, and

234
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,120
Speaker 1: you can just if you can just realize that like

235
00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,040
Speaker 1: part of so much of it. I mean, take physical

236
00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,840
Speaker 1: pain as an example. So much of the suffering is

237
00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:15,280
Speaker 1: born of this feeling that I can't you know, I

238
00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:19,760
Speaker 1: can't stand another second of this. But you've, ironically, in

239
00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:22,880
Speaker 1: that moment, you have just you know, withstood another second

240
00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,439
Speaker 1: of it. It's like like you've already you're already experiencing

241
00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,560
Speaker 1: the pain, and yet layered on top of that is

242
00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:33,520
Speaker 1: this fear and resistance to to some picture of the future,

243
00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:35,760
Speaker 1: like how long is this going to last? Yeah, and

244
00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,959
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's already present, right, So it's like

245
00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,480
Speaker 1: like you're adding this level of of you know, your

246
00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,520
Speaker 1: like the mind has become a clenched fist around whatever

247
00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:47,680
Speaker 1: unpleasantness is arising on its own.

248
00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:49,480
Speaker 3: And that's quite a relief when you do push through.

249
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:51,280
Speaker 3: I like to do ospots to Sam and it's a

250
00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,520
Speaker 3: great moment when you exactly what you described and you're like,

251
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:54,839
Speaker 3: I can't do this. I kind of I've got to

252
00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:55,960
Speaker 3: get out I've got to get out. And then if

253
00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,240
Speaker 3: you sit there for long enough, you get this feeling

254
00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:02,400
Speaker 3: of just relate where you go, oh no, it's actually fine. Yeah,

255
00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,400
Speaker 3: and almost that euphoric feeling takes over your body.

256
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, And you kind of get to the point with

257
00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,520
Speaker 4: meditation where you sort of just start feeling feelings of

258
00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:14,679
Speaker 4: intensity rather than necessarily being able to label what it is,

259
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,800
Speaker 4: if you can sort of remove that second dart as

260
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,319
Speaker 4: the Buddy used to call it, which is your reaction

261
00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:21,320
Speaker 4: to it, which.

262
00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:21,800
Speaker 2: Is the label.

263
00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,160
Speaker 4: Bet, Sam, I really want to talk to you really quickly.

264
00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,120
Speaker 4: I imagine this is why Wood's got me Wood, He's

265
00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:30,640
Speaker 4: brought you on. Here is I through the depressive episode

266
00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:32,439
Speaker 4: that I had. One of the things Wood is my

267
00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:33,839
Speaker 4: best friend. He's a guy I do the show with,

268
00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,120
Speaker 4: and he was really the reason that I kind of

269
00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,800
Speaker 4: pulled through it in a lot of ways, because we

270
00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:40,520
Speaker 4: had to rock up and do this comedy show together,

271
00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:42,520
Speaker 4: and he would just look at me and be like, wow,

272
00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,240
Speaker 4: you are you are not able to.

273
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,360
Speaker 2: Do a comedy show today.

274
00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,400
Speaker 4: So I was kind of lucky in a lot of

275
00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,720
Speaker 4: senses because I had this you know, catch all claus

276
00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,680
Speaker 4: where I had to go to work, and I couldn't

277
00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,760
Speaker 4: bury myself behind a photocopy or a piece of machinery

278
00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,280
Speaker 4: to talk and be animated. And naturally that sort of

279
00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,480
Speaker 4: developed this relationship between us where I would learn before

280
00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,240
Speaker 4: the start of the day, when I was feeling depressed,

281
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,440
Speaker 4: I'd meditated sort of checking with myself and I'd noticed

282
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,600
Speaker 4: that I was really struggling. I could send him a

283
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,160
Speaker 4: text message at the start of the day and let

284
00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:17,920
Speaker 4: him know so that he could and then I could

285
00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:19,840
Speaker 4: sort of tell him how I'd like him to interact

286
00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,120
Speaker 4: with me that day, which would make me relieve me

287
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,440
Speaker 4: of that burden so that I'm not rocking up to

288
00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:26,680
Speaker 4: work sort of hiding this thing from everybody.

289
00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,320
Speaker 2: So I was kind.

290
00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,040
Speaker 4: Of inspired a bit by your app coming out when

291
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,280
Speaker 4: Waking Up came out, because you moved over to the

292
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,920
Speaker 4: app format about a way that you just sort of

293
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:41,480
Speaker 4: greased the wheels on communication for people who are suffering

294
00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,240
Speaker 4: with whatever it is, whatever mental health condition or mental

295
00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,200
Speaker 4: illness you might be having, because we kind of all

296
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,680
Speaker 4: know that the way through the mental health crisis is

297
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,320
Speaker 4: telling somebody who's around you. But you know, paradoxically, when

298
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,160
Speaker 4: you're in it, that's the hardest thing to do. A

299
00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:57,880
Speaker 4: lot of the time you sort of feel like a

300
00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:03,160
Speaker 4: burden on the people around you. So I really wanted

301
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:04,920
Speaker 4: to ask you, actually, I mean, that's that's what the

302
00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,280
Speaker 4: app is. Share my mood is what the apps called,

303
00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,560
Speaker 4: and people can sort of tell somebody in their life

304
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:11,920
Speaker 4: in three clicks effectively how they're going, and then they

305
00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,320
Speaker 4: don't have to go through the process of like drafting

306
00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,760
Speaker 4: a message thinking about who that you know they're going

307
00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,320
Speaker 4: to tell. It's just it's very basic in that sense.

308
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,600
Speaker 4: But I wanted to ask you. I suppose, now that

309
00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:29,480
Speaker 4: you're on here in your work through meditation and philosophy

310
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,960
Speaker 4: of mind and stuff, what sort of a role people

311
00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:38,440
Speaker 4: outside the sufferer? I think probably the language I've probably

312
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:39,720
Speaker 4: heard you use a lot more as the role of

313
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,680
Speaker 4: a teacher would play. But I suppose a teacher can

314
00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,920
Speaker 4: be a friend, or a family member or a work

315
00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:51,440
Speaker 4: colleague can play in helping you navigate mental trauma whatever

316
00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,720
Speaker 4: it is, you know, if it's grief or anxiety or

317
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:54,520
Speaker 4: or depression.

318
00:15:54,800 --> 00:16:00,720
Speaker 1: M hm, well, I mean, one one of the usions

319
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:05,760
Speaker 1: that quickly lands on you when you're suffering is the

320
00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:10,240
Speaker 1: sense that it's anomalous, right, that like you're alone in it.

321
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,640
Speaker 1: I mean, this is this is a departure from what

322
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,960
Speaker 1: is normal, and you see other people sort of going

323
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,160
Speaker 1: on with their or apparently going on with their normal lives,

324
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:21,640
Speaker 1: and you've been derailed. And this can be you know,

325
00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:23,440
Speaker 1: this could be from a depression, or it could be

326
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,680
Speaker 1: from the grief of a you know, somebody die close

327
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,320
Speaker 1: to you, dying right so like, or you've got a

328
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:34,040
Speaker 1: scary health diagnosis or whatever. It is something that is

329
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:44,320
Speaker 1: that just throws you out of the normal day to

330
00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,360
Speaker 1: day routine of just you know, seeking happiness in all

331
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,280
Speaker 1: the usual ways because that suddenly becomes impossible, and then

332
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:56,400
Speaker 1: you're thrust into more existential concerns that it seems like

333
00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,760
Speaker 1: you're alone in that, and it's just just a moment's

334
00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:01,720
Speaker 1: thought can reveal to you. I mean, whether or not

335
00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:06,880
Speaker 1: anyone around you is very good at at crossing that distance,

336
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,800
Speaker 1: that's another matter. But you can just on your own

337
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:14,679
Speaker 1: side recognize that this is. You know, whether everyone around

338
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,879
Speaker 1: you is experiencing this exact thing. Now, virtually all of

339
00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,359
Speaker 1: them will experience something very much like this at a

340
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,080
Speaker 1: certain point. I mean everyone that you know, if you've

341
00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,840
Speaker 1: just lived long enough, everyone you love is going to die, right,

342
00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,760
Speaker 1: I mean, so the luckiest person, the healthiest person is

343
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,080
Speaker 1: just going to get one phone call after another finding

344
00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,680
Speaker 1: out that people that love die, right, So, like even

345
00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,680
Speaker 1: the luckiest person can't get out of here without serious

346
00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,240
Speaker 1: They're going to have a serious encounter with with the

347
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,160
Speaker 1: mortality of others and their own sense of loss. Yeah,

348
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,240
Speaker 1: and you and and it's true. And you know, depression

349
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:51,280
Speaker 1: is very common, Anxiety disorders are very common, you know,

350
00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,480
Speaker 1: substance abuses, right, I mean, there's so many flavors to this,

351
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,439
Speaker 1: but it's it's it's a it is a very common

352
00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:02,240
Speaker 1: circumstance to be miserable for reasons that that are either

353
00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:06,040
Speaker 1: obvious or not obvious, but are are are seemingly intractable.

354
00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,720
Speaker 1: And we're all in a very's a common circumstance. And

355
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,360
Speaker 1: that can give you both compassion for others and compassion

356
00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:17,959
Speaker 1: for yourself. And and it is it is just in

357
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:22,000
Speaker 1: fact the case that because most of us spend so

358
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,960
Speaker 1: much time denying all of this or trying to avoid

359
00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:30,480
Speaker 1: paying attention to it, that we're really we're not good

360
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,879
Speaker 1: at talking about it, especially especially when when it's happening

361
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,439
Speaker 1: to somebody else. You know, if if you know if

362
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:41,480
Speaker 1: you're if your friend loses, you know, their spouse, it's

363
00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:43,680
Speaker 1: can be very difficult to figure out how you talk

364
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:45,760
Speaker 1: to that person, right, like how do you like? Do

365
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:47,840
Speaker 1: you just you don't have good people don't have good

366
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:53,240
Speaker 1: intuitions for for how to interface with someone who's crisis.

367
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,000
Speaker 1: And that's something that I think everyone has some kind

368
00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,280
Speaker 1: of ethical obligation to get better at. But it's something

369
00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,760
Speaker 1: that you when you're in a black hole, you just

370
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,879
Speaker 1: have to recognize that, yeah, people aren't going to be

371
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:12,520
Speaker 1: great at navigating that necessarily, and you still And the

372
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,760
Speaker 1: thing that's really insidious about depression is that it is

373
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,200
Speaker 1: it is really the like the classic state where the

374
00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,360
Speaker 1: things that would help you climb out of it are

375
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,120
Speaker 1: precisely the things you don't want to do. You've got

376
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,480
Speaker 1: no energy to do. It's like you don't want to socialize,

377
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,399
Speaker 1: you don't want to exercise, you don't want to just

378
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 1: you don't want to put your attention on things that

379
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:38,119
Speaker 1: could stand a chance of lifting you out. And so

380
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:42,080
Speaker 1: it is. It is very it's very clever in that way,

381
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,800
Speaker 1: and it is kind of black hole that you know,

382
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,720
Speaker 1: once you're once you're over the event horizon, it begins

383
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:49,480
Speaker 1: to function by its own dynamics.

384
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, you just need to lifeline down to the down

385
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:53,080
Speaker 4: to the hole there to help you out of there.

386
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:54,680
Speaker 2: And yeah and reach out.

387
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:56,919
Speaker 3: As Sam, we know we do have to let you go.

388
00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,640
Speaker 3: Matn't know that you've got you're a very very busy man.

389
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,679
Speaker 3: But if you do, you want to hear more of

390
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,240
Speaker 3: Sam Harris, see more of Sam Harris. You've got an

391
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:07,720
Speaker 3: incredible app, Sam Waking Up. Yeah, I know the podcast.

392
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,560
Speaker 3: You've got a podcast with Ricky Gervais which has just

393
00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 3: come out as well. Absolutely mental. Yeah, really quickly, Sam,

394
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:15,960
Speaker 3: how did that come about? A podcast with Ricky Gervais.

395
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:22,160
Speaker 1: We were just having some fun phone calls and we realized,

396
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,800
Speaker 1: wait a minute, this is people would like to listen

397
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,320
Speaker 1: to this, and we're having such a good time. Yeah,

398
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,840
Speaker 1: let's just roll tape and see what happens. And so

399
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,639
Speaker 1: we basically record a podcast. It's virtually identical to what

400
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,560
Speaker 1: we were talking about anyway. I mean, it's just, you know,

401
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,159
Speaker 1: apart from some editing we did. Yeah, you know, it

402
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,840
Speaker 1: was very much in the spirit of what we were

403
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:44,879
Speaker 1: doing on the phone already, and so it's just a

404
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,600
Speaker 1: matter of you know, recording better audio and seeing what happened.

405
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:50,639
Speaker 3: Is that I mean, is that your relationship with Ricky

406
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:52,480
Speaker 3: him just firing questions at you?

407
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:55,159
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean that was It's kind of the

408
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,919
Speaker 1: conceit of the phone call, but it's very much like

409
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,159
Speaker 1: what was happening already. So it was. It was just

410
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 1: we didn't really have to give it too much top spin.

411
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,960
Speaker 4: Oh well, apart from editing around Jervas, so I'm sure, yeah.

412
00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,240
Speaker 1: Or just just taking things out, you know that we

413
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,679
Speaker 1: just didn't want to go public with but you know,

414
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 1: it was it was fun and yeah, I mean our

415
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 1: relationship is almost entirely virtual that way. I've only met

416
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,600
Speaker 1: him in person once, a lot of phone calls.

417
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,440
Speaker 4: You guys really wax beautifully on a lot of topics.

418
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 4: And Ricky's obviously super clever dude as well, so his

419
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 4: questions are as funny as they are penetrating it. And

420
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,200
Speaker 4: the fruit of that is is honestly a ripping chat

421
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,879
Speaker 4: Absolutely Mental dot com if you want to buy and

422
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 4: listen to Absolutely Mental with Ricky Gervas and Sam House. Sam,

423
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:43,880
Speaker 4: excuse me, thanks so much for coming on. Honestly, it's

424
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,640
Speaker 4: a pleasure. Yeah, and on from the bottom of my heart.

425
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 4: I'm sure I won't ever get a chance to meet you.

426
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 4: I'm sure i'll see you again hopefully. But like honestly, man,

427
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:53,960
Speaker 4: thank you so much for you you've brought into.

428
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,879
Speaker 1: Mindy to meet both of you. Yeah, thanks, thanks for

429
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:56,360
Speaker 1: the invitation.

430
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,360
Speaker 2: It's been a real pleasure. I'm having you. Oh, I've

431
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,679
Speaker 2: needed you a lot of times. You don't realize that,

432
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 2: but I've actually genuinely needed you. I think if any

433
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 2: there's a chat that Sam.

434
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,199
Speaker 1: Happens for it. Yeah, it's great to be able to

435
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:07,479
Speaker 1: do it.

436
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,160
Speaker 2: He really guys GUIDs you every day. It's amazing.

437
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I did meditations every single morning Sam. They're just brilliant.

438
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,680
Speaker 3: They're seriously good, Matte. Thank you so much if anybody wants.

439
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 3: And the chats, most recently with David White.

440
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,400
Speaker 1: Have just been Yeah, he's amazing.

441
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,160
Speaker 2: He's really such good chats. Man.

442
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,120
Speaker 4: Again, you've got to go. Thank you so much. It's

443
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 4: been a pleasure in so many ways.

444
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thanks so.

445
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,680
Speaker 2: Much, Sam.

446
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,679
Speaker 3: Thank you Sam.

447
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 2: More of the boys on the Full Show podcast.

448
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 1: You know you want to