WEBVTT - What happens when the Pope dies?

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<v Speaker 1>Already and this is the Daily This is the Dahlias.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh now it makes sense. Good morning, and welcome to

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<v Speaker 1>the Daily Os. It's Wednesday, the twenty third of April.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Lucy Tassel, I'm Zara Seidler. Pope Francis, the head

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<v Speaker 1>of the Catholic Church, has died at eighty eight of

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<v Speaker 1>a stroke and a heart attack. His death means a

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<v Speaker 1>process called the People Conclave is about to begin, where

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<v Speaker 1>senior church leaders will gather in the Sistine Chapel, sequestered

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<v Speaker 1>from the world, to elect a new Pope. In today's episode,

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<v Speaker 1>we'll explain what we know about this mysterious process, who

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<v Speaker 1>the contenders are, and why this all comes down to

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<v Speaker 1>different colors of smoke. Lucy.

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<v Speaker 2>Earlier this week we learned that Pope Francis had died.

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<v Speaker 2>We understand that he had been unwell for quite a while,

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<v Speaker 2>but that he passed on Monday morning. Can talk to

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<v Speaker 2>me about Pope Francis, and I guess, in the first instance,

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<v Speaker 2>about his legacy.

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<v Speaker 1>Pope Francis will always be known as the first Pope

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<v Speaker 1>from South America. His election was also significant because he

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<v Speaker 1>was taking over from a pope who had retired for

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<v Speaker 1>the first time in six hundred years and only the

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<v Speaker 1>second time in the history of the church. He will

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<v Speaker 1>also be known for his relatively progressive views and his

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<v Speaker 1>care for the disadvantage the discriminated against. An anecdote that

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<v Speaker 1>I think really reflects Pope Francis's legacy is that the

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<v Speaker 1>pope has an official summer residence and he said, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>never going to use it. I won't go on holiday.

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<v Speaker 1>Turn it into a museum so people can come and visit.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's what he did. He never went on holiday

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<v Speaker 1>the entire time, even though he became pope in his

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<v Speaker 1>mid seventies, the entire time that he was there, he

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<v Speaker 1>really felt like he needed to be in service of

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<v Speaker 1>the church and its people. So those are some of

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<v Speaker 1>the things that we know about him and about his legacy.

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<v Speaker 1>Now there's going to be a new pope, someone who

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<v Speaker 1>will go from being someone that maybe only a few

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<v Speaker 1>thousand people know to someone that billions of people around

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<v Speaker 1>the world know the name of, or rather the assumed

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<v Speaker 1>name of. But I'll get to that later.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and obviously the election of a new pope is

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<v Speaker 2>so significant, But I guess before we go into what

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<v Speaker 2>the process is for those who are perhaps less familiar

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<v Speaker 2>with the Catholic Church, can you just explain what the

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<v Speaker 2>role of the pope actually is.

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<v Speaker 1>Catholics believe the pope is God's representative on earth and

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<v Speaker 1>that any official declarations by the pope can't be wrong

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<v Speaker 1>because they come through him from God. The role of

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<v Speaker 1>the pope has existed since the earliest days of the Church,

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<v Speaker 1>and Catholics actually believe the first pope was one of Jesus'

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<v Speaker 1>twelve disciples, Saint Peter. Today, the pope also has a

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<v Speaker 1>formal role as the head of state of Vatican City,

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<v Speaker 1>which is a city state inside the city of Rome,

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<v Speaker 1>the capital of Italy. The Vatican is both a sacred

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<v Speaker 1>site for Catholics and it's also the church's headquarters. It

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<v Speaker 1>has observer status at the United Nations, and its small

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<v Speaker 1>population is mostly people who work for the Church. As

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<v Speaker 1>you would imagine, the pope's responsibilities also involve leading masses,

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<v Speaker 1>which is like the Catholic religious observance, publishing reflections on

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<v Speaker 1>world events and on holidays, and meeting members of the

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<v Speaker 1>church and also world leaders. At the Vatican. For example,

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<v Speaker 1>it's believed that the last person Pope Francis met with

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<v Speaker 1>was US Vice President JD. Vance, who of course converted

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<v Speaker 1>to Catholicism a couple of years ago. Again, we'll touch

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<v Speaker 1>on that later.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, and so these are the responsibilities of the pope.

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<v Speaker 2>But how does someone ascend to the papacy.

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<v Speaker 1>Something I learned while researching this podcast today which is

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<v Speaker 1>very surprising to me, is that technically any baptized Catholic

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<v Speaker 1>man could become the pope.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>They could all go in there to the secret conclave

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<v Speaker 1>and write in JD. Vance if they wanted to. It's

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<v Speaker 1>extremely unlikely. Only cardinals, which is a senior church leader,

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<v Speaker 1>have been named the pope since the fourteenth century. When

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<v Speaker 1>something has existed for as long as the Catholic Church

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<v Speaker 1>has as an institution, you tend to get these kind

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<v Speaker 1>of very long term trends. Yeah, so seven hundred years

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<v Speaker 1>of only cardinals.

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<v Speaker 2>What is a cardinal?

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<v Speaker 1>A cardinal is a senior advisor to the pope. The

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<v Speaker 1>pope can appoint them from different places around the world.

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<v Speaker 1>They vote on who becomes the pope. They're part of

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<v Speaker 1>an organization called the College of Cardinals, and so they

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<v Speaker 1>are the ones who vote in a process called the Conclave,

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<v Speaker 1>which gave its name to an Oscar winning movie.

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<v Speaker 2>He's going to say, people might be familiar with the

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<v Speaker 2>name of that process now.

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<v Speaker 1>And that film actually, despite having very dramatic developments, I

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<v Speaker 1>think the process, to my understanding, is depicted fairly accurately,

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<v Speaker 1>which is all these senior advisors from all around the world,

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<v Speaker 1>they gather in the Sistine Chapel in the Vatican and

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<v Speaker 1>they vote until they have decided on who will be

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<v Speaker 1>the next pope. They're not allowed to speak to anyone

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<v Speaker 1>in the outside world while this is happening. It's called

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<v Speaker 1>being in seclusion. And also only cardinals under the age

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<v Speaker 1>of eighty are allowed to vote, I imagine, because it's

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<v Speaker 1>about who will be taking the church into the future.

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<v Speaker 1>That means about half of the current number of cardinals

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<v Speaker 1>are not going to be voting. And they vote until

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<v Speaker 1>they secure a two thirds majority of votes, until one

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<v Speaker 1>candidate does rather, and then something really exciting happens, which

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<v Speaker 1>is they release white smoke into the air to let

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<v Speaker 1>the world know we have chosen a pope. At the

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<v Speaker 1>end of every previous vote that does not result in

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<v Speaker 1>unelected pope, they release black smoke.

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<v Speaker 2>And I learned while I was your post that smoke

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<v Speaker 2>is in part formed by burning the ballots that people

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<v Speaker 2>are voting with or the cardinals are voting with.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the level of seclusion extends even to who voted

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<v Speaker 1>for what and how many people got yeah wow vote.

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<v Speaker 1>We really don't know. That's what's kind of bananas about

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<v Speaker 1>this process in the modern world. It is truly a mystery.

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<v Speaker 1>We only know the basic mechanics. We will never know

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<v Speaker 1>who voted for whom and how many people were contenders

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<v Speaker 1>and then fell away. We can get a rough sense

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<v Speaker 1>of how many rounds of voting they were by how

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<v Speaker 1>many times the black smoke is released, but other than that,

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<v Speaker 1>we have no idea what the discussions were.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, it's fascinating. And so you're saying, black smoke shoots

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<v Speaker 2>up if they are unsuccessful in choosing a pope. But

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<v Speaker 2>when that two thirds majority is reached and a pope

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<v Speaker 2>is declared, white smoke comes up. Yes, what happens after that?

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<v Speaker 1>And I'll also note if it's cloudy, the white smoke

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<v Speaker 1>can be really hard to spot. Yeah. Interesting in an

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<v Speaker 1>issue in the past.

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<v Speaker 2>Interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>So then the head of the College of Cardinals comes

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<v Speaker 1>out on a balcony. It's Saint Peter's Basilica. Typically thousands

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<v Speaker 1>of people are gathered in the square waiting, or they've

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<v Speaker 1>gathered after seeing the white smoke to say, Okay, we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to go and see the new Pope. The Dean

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<v Speaker 1>of the College of Cardinals comes out onto the balcony

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<v Speaker 1>and says a Latin phrase, hebemus popham, which means we

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<v Speaker 1>have a pope. And then the new Pope comes out

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<v Speaker 1>and says hello, I'm the Pope. Hello to the billions

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<v Speaker 1>of Catholics around the world. My new name is blank.

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<v Speaker 2>Talk to me about that new name part, because again

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not overly familiar with certain parts of Catholicism, and

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<v Speaker 2>so learning all of this has been so fascinating for me.

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<v Speaker 2>Where do popes get their names from.

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<v Speaker 1>They choose it from a name within the church's history

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<v Speaker 1>that they want to guide them as they enter this

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<v Speaker 1>new kind of enormous role. So, for example, Pope Francis

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<v Speaker 1>is named Francis after Saint Francis of Assisi, because he

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<v Speaker 1>said he wanted to emulate his care for the poor

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<v Speaker 1>and the downtrodden in the past. If you take the

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<v Speaker 1>same name as a previous pope, then you add a

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<v Speaker 1>number to your name. So, for example, if the new

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<v Speaker 1>pope takes John, he'll be John the twenty fourth because

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<v Speaker 1>there have been twenty three previous Johns. He might be

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<v Speaker 1>taking that to represent John the Baptist, an important Catholic figure.

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<v Speaker 1>He might be saying, I want to be just like

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<v Speaker 1>John the twenty third. It's any number of reasons which

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<v Speaker 1>will be explained.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it so so interesting and so just on that.

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<v Speaker 2>We are at this point now where there will be

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<v Speaker 2>a new pope and this conclave process will now unfold.

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<v Speaker 2>Do we know who is I don't know. I guess

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<v Speaker 2>a front runner to become the next pope. What do

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<v Speaker 2>we know about that?

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<v Speaker 1>There's a saying I've just learned in the process of

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<v Speaker 1>researching this, which is you enter a conclave a pope,

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<v Speaker 1>but you leave a cardinal, which basically means you can

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<v Speaker 1>enter as a front runner, and then things can go

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<v Speaker 1>completely differently once they're in seclusion and sequestered from the

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<v Speaker 1>rest of the world. But international media has speculated and

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<v Speaker 1>here are three main contenders from what I saw. So

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<v Speaker 1>the first is Cardinal Luis Tugley. He's the former Archbishop

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<v Speaker 1>of Manila. He's widely considered to be the closest to

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<v Speaker 1>Francis in terms of caring about social justice and in

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<v Speaker 1>terms of how they think about leading the church. He's

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<v Speaker 1>sixty seven, and if he's elected, he would be the

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<v Speaker 1>first pope from East Asia. I specify this because there

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<v Speaker 1>are a couple of popes from Syria in the church's

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<v Speaker 1>first thousand years, but not since then it's mainly been European.

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<v Speaker 1>The next one is Cardinal Peter Erdo, who's the Archbishop

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<v Speaker 1>of Budapest. He's a conservative, but he worked effectively with Francis,

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<v Speaker 1>a progressive. He's seventy two, and he has strong connections

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<v Speaker 1>with European and African bishops, so that could mean that

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<v Speaker 1>they joined together to vote him in. It's entirely possible,

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<v Speaker 1>we don't know. And then the third one I wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to raise is Cardinal Pietro Paroline. He was the Pope's

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<v Speaker 1>second in command. He's seventy and he worked for a

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<v Speaker 1>long time as a diplomat for the Church. He negotiated

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<v Speaker 1>a number of key agreements. He also met with US

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<v Speaker 1>Vice President JD. Vance last week, and a Vatican statement

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<v Speaker 1>about that meeting said it included, quote, an exchange of

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<v Speaker 1>opinions about migrants, refugees and prisoners, so could be interesting

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<v Speaker 1>if he is elected to see how he navigates the

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<v Speaker 1>Church's relationship with the world. But as I said before,

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<v Speaker 1>we just don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it seems like we're going to have to

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<v Speaker 2>wait and see what happens and wait for that white smoke.

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<v Speaker 2>When does this process actually kick off? Though you said

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<v Speaker 2>it can take a number of days, When does it begin.

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<v Speaker 1>It doesn't actually begin for a couple of weeks, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>So the Vatican is in an official period of mourning,

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<v Speaker 1>then there'll be meetings among the cardinals ahead of the conclave.

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<v Speaker 1>Many of these cardinals are bas at the Vatican, but

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<v Speaker 1>plenty are also coming from all over the world, so

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<v Speaker 1>we have to account for travel time, including for Australia's

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<v Speaker 1>Cardinal Mikhola Beachuk. He's forty four, which makes him the

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<v Speaker 1>youngest member of the College of Cardinals, and he was

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<v Speaker 1>actually only made a cardinal last year by Poete Francis.

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<v Speaker 1>He was born in Ukraine and moved to Australia in

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty one when he was given a senior position

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<v Speaker 1>in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church based in Australia. This

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<v Speaker 1>church is a subsidiary of the larger church. The fact

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<v Speaker 1>that he was elected so recently, the fact of his age,

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<v Speaker 1>the fact that he's from a subsidiary branch all mean

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<v Speaker 1>it's unlikely that he becomes the pope, but never say never,

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<v Speaker 1>Never say never. It's unlikely, but it's certainly possible. The

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<v Speaker 1>conclave is a mystery.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, it really is. Lucy. Thank you so much for

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<v Speaker 2>explaining that. It's such a fascinating topic and has so

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<v Speaker 2>much influence on the rest of the world, and yet

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<v Speaker 2>we know so little about what actually goes on. So

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<v Speaker 2>thank you for shedding a bit of light there, and

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<v Speaker 2>thank you for joining us for another episode of The

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<v Speaker 2>Daily Oas. We'll be back later today with the day's headlines,

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<v Speaker 2>but until then, have a great day.

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<v Speaker 1>My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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<v Speaker 1>Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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<v Speaker 1>the first peoples of these countries both past and present.