1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:04,359 Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily This is the Dahlias. 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: Oh now it makes sense. Good morning, and welcome to 3 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: the Daily Os. It's Wednesday, the twenty third of April. 4 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: I'm Lucy Tassel, I'm Zara Seidler. Pope Francis, the head 5 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: of the Catholic Church, has died at eighty eight of 6 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: a stroke and a heart attack. His death means a 7 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: process called the People Conclave is about to begin, where 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: senior church leaders will gather in the Sistine Chapel, sequestered 9 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: from the world, to elect a new Pope. In today's episode, 10 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: we'll explain what we know about this mysterious process, who 11 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 1: the contenders are, and why this all comes down to 12 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: different colors of smoke. Lucy. 13 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 2: Earlier this week we learned that Pope Francis had died. 14 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 2: We understand that he had been unwell for quite a while, 15 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 2: but that he passed on Monday morning. Can talk to 16 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,279 Speaker 2: me about Pope Francis, and I guess, in the first instance, 17 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 2: about his legacy. 18 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: Pope Francis will always be known as the first Pope 19 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: from South America. His election was also significant because he 20 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: was taking over from a pope who had retired for 21 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 1: the first time in six hundred years and only the 22 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: second time in the history of the church. He will 23 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: also be known for his relatively progressive views and his 24 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: care for the disadvantage the discriminated against. An anecdote that 25 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: I think really reflects Pope Francis's legacy is that the 26 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: pope has an official summer residence and he said, I'm 27 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: never going to use it. I won't go on holiday. 28 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: Turn it into a museum so people can come and visit. 29 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: And that's what he did. He never went on holiday 30 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: the entire time, even though he became pope in his 31 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: mid seventies, the entire time that he was there, he 32 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: really felt like he needed to be in service of 33 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: the church and its people. So those are some of 34 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: the things that we know about him and about his legacy. 35 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: Now there's going to be a new pope, someone who 36 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: will go from being someone that maybe only a few 37 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: thousand people know to someone that billions of people around 38 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: the world know the name of, or rather the assumed 39 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: name of. But I'll get to that later. 40 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, and obviously the election of a new pope is 41 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 2: so significant, But I guess before we go into what 42 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 2: the process is for those who are perhaps less familiar 43 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 2: with the Catholic Church, can you just explain what the 44 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 2: role of the pope actually is. 45 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: Catholics believe the pope is God's representative on earth and 46 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: that any official declarations by the pope can't be wrong 47 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: because they come through him from God. The role of 48 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: the pope has existed since the earliest days of the Church, 49 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: and Catholics actually believe the first pope was one of Jesus' 50 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: twelve disciples, Saint Peter. Today, the pope also has a 51 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: formal role as the head of state of Vatican City, 52 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: which is a city state inside the city of Rome, 53 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: the capital of Italy. The Vatican is both a sacred 54 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: site for Catholics and it's also the church's headquarters. It 55 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,519 Speaker 1: has observer status at the United Nations, and its small 56 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: population is mostly people who work for the Church. As 57 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:21,399 Speaker 1: you would imagine, the pope's responsibilities also involve leading masses, 58 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: which is like the Catholic religious observance, publishing reflections on 59 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: world events and on holidays, and meeting members of the 60 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: church and also world leaders. At the Vatican. For example, 61 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: it's believed that the last person Pope Francis met with 62 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: was US Vice President JD. Vance, who of course converted 63 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: to Catholicism a couple of years ago. Again, we'll touch 64 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: on that later. 65 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, and so these are the responsibilities of the pope. 66 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 2: But how does someone ascend to the papacy. 67 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: Something I learned while researching this podcast today which is 68 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: very surprising to me, is that technically any baptized Catholic 69 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: man could become the pope. 70 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 2: Oh interesting. 71 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: They could all go in there to the secret conclave 72 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: and write in JD. Vance if they wanted to. It's 73 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: extremely unlikely. Only cardinals, which is a senior church leader, 74 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: have been named the pope since the fourteenth century. When 75 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: something has existed for as long as the Catholic Church 76 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: has as an institution, you tend to get these kind 77 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 1: of very long term trends. Yeah, so seven hundred years 78 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 1: of only cardinals. 79 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 2: What is a cardinal? 80 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: A cardinal is a senior advisor to the pope. The 81 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: pope can appoint them from different places around the world. 82 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: They vote on who becomes the pope. They're part of 83 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 1: an organization called the College of Cardinals, and so they 84 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: are the ones who vote in a process called the Conclave, 85 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: which gave its name to an Oscar winning movie. 86 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 2: He's going to say, people might be familiar with the 87 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:54,679 Speaker 2: name of that process now. 88 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: And that film actually, despite having very dramatic developments, I 89 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: think the process, to my understanding, is depicted fairly accurately, 90 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: which is all these senior advisors from all around the world, 91 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: they gather in the Sistine Chapel in the Vatican and 92 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: they vote until they have decided on who will be 93 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: the next pope. They're not allowed to speak to anyone 94 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: in the outside world while this is happening. It's called 95 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: being in seclusion. And also only cardinals under the age 96 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: of eighty are allowed to vote, I imagine, because it's 97 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 1: about who will be taking the church into the future. 98 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: That means about half of the current number of cardinals 99 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: are not going to be voting. And they vote until 100 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 1: they secure a two thirds majority of votes, until one 101 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 1: candidate does rather, and then something really exciting happens, which 102 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: is they release white smoke into the air to let 103 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: the world know we have chosen a pope. At the 104 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: end of every previous vote that does not result in 105 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: unelected pope, they release black smoke. 106 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 2: And I learned while I was your post that smoke 107 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 2: is in part formed by burning the ballots that people 108 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 2: are voting with or the cardinals are voting with. 109 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, the level of seclusion extends even to who voted 110 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: for what and how many people got yeah wow vote. 111 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: We really don't know. That's what's kind of bananas about 112 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: this process in the modern world. It is truly a mystery. 113 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: We only know the basic mechanics. We will never know 114 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: who voted for whom and how many people were contenders 115 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: and then fell away. We can get a rough sense 116 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: of how many rounds of voting they were by how 117 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: many times the black smoke is released, but other than that, 118 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: we have no idea what the discussions were. 119 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 2: Wow, it's fascinating. And so you're saying, black smoke shoots 120 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 2: up if they are unsuccessful in choosing a pope. But 121 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 2: when that two thirds majority is reached and a pope 122 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 2: is declared, white smoke comes up. Yes, what happens after that? 123 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 1: And I'll also note if it's cloudy, the white smoke 124 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: can be really hard to spot. Yeah. Interesting in an 125 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: issue in the past. 126 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 2: Interesting. 127 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: So then the head of the College of Cardinals comes 128 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: out on a balcony. It's Saint Peter's Basilica. Typically thousands 129 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: of people are gathered in the square waiting, or they've 130 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: gathered after seeing the white smoke to say, Okay, we're 131 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: going to go and see the new Pope. The Dean 132 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: of the College of Cardinals comes out onto the balcony 133 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: and says a Latin phrase, hebemus popham, which means we 134 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: have a pope. And then the new Pope comes out 135 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: and says hello, I'm the Pope. Hello to the billions 136 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: of Catholics around the world. My new name is blank. 137 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,119 Speaker 2: Talk to me about that new name part, because again 138 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 2: I'm not overly familiar with certain parts of Catholicism, and 139 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 2: so learning all of this has been so fascinating for me. 140 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 2: Where do popes get their names from. 141 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: They choose it from a name within the church's history 142 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: that they want to guide them as they enter this 143 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: new kind of enormous role. So, for example, Pope Francis 144 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: is named Francis after Saint Francis of Assisi, because he 145 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: said he wanted to emulate his care for the poor 146 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: and the downtrodden in the past. If you take the 147 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: same name as a previous pope, then you add a 148 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: number to your name. So, for example, if the new 149 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: pope takes John, he'll be John the twenty fourth because 150 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: there have been twenty three previous Johns. He might be 151 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: taking that to represent John the Baptist, an important Catholic figure. 152 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: He might be saying, I want to be just like 153 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: John the twenty third. It's any number of reasons which 154 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: will be explained. 155 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it so so interesting and so just on that. 156 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 2: We are at this point now where there will be 157 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 2: a new pope and this conclave process will now unfold. 158 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 2: Do we know who is I don't know. I guess 159 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 2: a front runner to become the next pope. What do 160 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 2: we know about that? 161 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 1: There's a saying I've just learned in the process of 162 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: researching this, which is you enter a conclave a pope, 163 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: but you leave a cardinal, which basically means you can 164 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: enter as a front runner, and then things can go 165 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: completely differently once they're in seclusion and sequestered from the 166 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: rest of the world. But international media has speculated and 167 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: here are three main contenders from what I saw. So 168 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: the first is Cardinal Luis Tugley. He's the former Archbishop 169 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: of Manila. He's widely considered to be the closest to 170 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: Francis in terms of caring about social justice and in 171 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: terms of how they think about leading the church. He's 172 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: sixty seven, and if he's elected, he would be the 173 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: first pope from East Asia. I specify this because there 174 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: are a couple of popes from Syria in the church's 175 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 1: first thousand years, but not since then it's mainly been European. 176 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: The next one is Cardinal Peter Erdo, who's the Archbishop 177 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: of Budapest. He's a conservative, but he worked effectively with Francis, 178 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: a progressive. He's seventy two, and he has strong connections 179 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: with European and African bishops, so that could mean that 180 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: they joined together to vote him in. It's entirely possible, 181 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: we don't know. And then the third one I wanted 182 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: to raise is Cardinal Pietro Paroline. He was the Pope's 183 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: second in command. He's seventy and he worked for a 184 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: long time as a diplomat for the Church. He negotiated 185 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: a number of key agreements. He also met with US 186 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: Vice President JD. Vance last week, and a Vatican statement 187 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: about that meeting said it included, quote, an exchange of 188 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: opinions about migrants, refugees and prisoners, so could be interesting 189 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 1: if he is elected to see how he navigates the 190 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: Church's relationship with the world. But as I said before, 191 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: we just don't know. 192 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 2: I mean, it seems like we're going to have to 193 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 2: wait and see what happens and wait for that white smoke. 194 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 2: When does this process actually kick off? Though you said 195 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 2: it can take a number of days, When does it begin. 196 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: It doesn't actually begin for a couple of weeks, okay, 197 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: So the Vatican is in an official period of mourning, 198 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: then there'll be meetings among the cardinals ahead of the conclave. 199 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: Many of these cardinals are bas at the Vatican, but 200 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: plenty are also coming from all over the world, so 201 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: we have to account for travel time, including for Australia's 202 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 1: Cardinal Mikhola Beachuk. He's forty four, which makes him the 203 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: youngest member of the College of Cardinals, and he was 204 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: actually only made a cardinal last year by Poete Francis. 205 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: He was born in Ukraine and moved to Australia in 206 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one when he was given a senior position 207 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church based in Australia. This 208 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: church is a subsidiary of the larger church. The fact 209 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: that he was elected so recently, the fact of his age, 210 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: the fact that he's from a subsidiary branch all mean 211 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: it's unlikely that he becomes the pope, but never say never, 212 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 1: Never say never. It's unlikely, but it's certainly possible. The 213 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: conclave is a mystery. 214 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 2: Wow, it really is. Lucy. Thank you so much for 215 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 2: explaining that. It's such a fascinating topic and has so 216 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:55,719 Speaker 2: much influence on the rest of the world, and yet 217 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 2: we know so little about what actually goes on. So 218 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 2: thank you for shedding a bit of light there, and 219 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 2: thank you for joining us for another episode of The 220 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 2: Daily Oas. We'll be back later today with the day's headlines, 221 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 2: but until then, have a great day. 222 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 223 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 1: Bungelung Kalkatin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 224 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 225 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 226 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: s right island and nations. We pay our respects to 227 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: the first peoples of these countries both past and present.