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Speaker 1: Now you might recall I reckon. It was towards the

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Speaker 1: end of last year I caught up with Gi Cardoner

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Speaker 1: and we've spoken about a program that he's running at

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Speaker 1: the moment with others called Brother to Another. Now joining

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Speaker 1: me in the studio right now is Gi Cardona, and

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Speaker 1: he's also joined in the studio by Andrew Lockier from

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Speaker 1: Brother to Another. Good morning to you.

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Speaker 2: Both, Good morning morning, lovely to have.

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Speaker 1: You in the studio now. We talk a lot in

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Speaker 1: the Northern Territory about youth crime. We talk a lot

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Speaker 1: on this show about issues of youth crime and some

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Speaker 1: of the concerns that people have around those issues. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's been incidents in recent months where we've seen kids

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Speaker 1: as young as Ash involved in some pretty terrible situations.

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Speaker 1: But the work you guys are doing at the moment, well, firstly, Gi,

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Speaker 1: I suppose for those who don't know a lot, or

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Speaker 1: maybe they didn't hear you on the show last time

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Speaker 1: that we spoke about Brother to Another, tell us a

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Speaker 1: little bit more about Brother to Another.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks, Katie. Yeah, it's been a really cool journey it.

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Speaker 2: Brother to Another started off as a voluntary program in

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Speaker 2: Dondale about in twenty twenty one, and as part of

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Speaker 2: that program, I was just coming in with about six

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Speaker 2: or seven different types of activities and the young people

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Speaker 2: were deciding I guess what they wanted to do because

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Speaker 2: it gave them a little bit of control over their day.

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Speaker 2: Through those discussions, we actually talked about services that they

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Speaker 2: were or weren't receiving, and one particular was, you know,

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Speaker 2: they wanted more services with Aboriginal people, ones that worked

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Speaker 2: with them after hours in schools, worked with their siblings

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Speaker 2: and their friends, and worked with their families. So then

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Speaker 2: that's where we started developing. Okay, what would this look like?

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Speaker 2: The name Brother to Another actually comes from a workshop

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Speaker 2: I did in B Block and don Dale to decide that,

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Speaker 2: so they had some control on what the organization looked like.

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Speaker 2: The end of twenty twenty one, we became a charity

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Speaker 2: because I guess the main thing is community taking control

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Speaker 2: and putting it I guess a step forward to finding out,

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Speaker 2: I guess what does work? How can the people most

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Speaker 2: affective be heard and how can we show government what

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Speaker 2: is effective? So from the.

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Speaker 1: Work that you guys are doing, Andrew, what are you

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Speaker 1: finding is quite effective? At the moment when you're working

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Speaker 1: with some of these young people.

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Speaker 3: So what we're finding effective is a wrap around service,

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Speaker 3: you know, rather than working in a silo with just

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Speaker 3: the young person by themselves, we're working holistically in the

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Speaker 3: family unit, so trying to work out who's significant in

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Speaker 3: the young person's life, you know, the parents' grandparents, siblings

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Speaker 3: and even their peers, and trying to wrap service around

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Speaker 3: that group of people rather than just that individual.

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Speaker 1: And we not like we hear so much about there's

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Speaker 1: so many departments or it feels like there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of departments right that are working in this space, and

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Speaker 1: we feel like these you know, you know, territory families

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Speaker 1: or housing and you know, all these departments are doing

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Speaker 1: different work, but it's still feels like, you know, the

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Speaker 1: work that really can help these kids a lot of

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Speaker 1: the time maybe isn't sort of happening, or it's all

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Speaker 1: those services are operating but maybe aren't quite effectively operating

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Speaker 1: to actually help the key.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel that the natural inkling for the department

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Speaker 2: is to create more programs that's case managed. And we're

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Speaker 2: dealing with some of the most disengaged youth in Australia,

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Speaker 2: let alone the NT and so then by creating more

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Speaker 2: services that sort of case manager driven, they're already the

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Speaker 2: positions and the type of people that the young people

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Speaker 2: already don't engaging with. So we need to be more

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Speaker 2: creative and actually look in into actually what's practical. It

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Speaker 2: is multi departmental in terms of responsibility. You've got territory families.

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Speaker 2: But where we've seen things work really well is deep

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Speaker 2: collaboration with education, and particularly when we've had the rasy

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Speaker 2: age legislation come in that ten to twelve year old mark,

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Speaker 2: looking at year six and seven, generally, sometimes we're seeing

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Speaker 2: youth go from having one teacher in one class to

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Speaker 2: maybe going to middle school and having seven teachers and

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Speaker 2: seven classes. So it's if you work deeply with the

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Speaker 2: school as a service to the point where you're actually

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Speaker 2: walking into the school with the young person, you're joining classes,

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Speaker 2: you're working on behavioral issues, you're looking at how you

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Speaker 2: can adapt the curriculum and more engagement with that, how

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Speaker 2: you do school sessions as well. We're really fortunate with

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Speaker 2: rather to another that we're actually delivering a nt original

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Speaker 2: languages and culture curriculum with the re engagement schools. So

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Speaker 2: how can services actually support education because when we've seen

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Speaker 2: young people support it at school, they feel more a

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Speaker 2: part of something in the community, and we generally get

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Speaker 2: really good results. Their parents feel more in control as well,

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Speaker 2: and they create positive peer groups. We've had a young

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Speaker 2: fellow go to school after not going for a year

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Speaker 2: and sort of going in and out of sort of guess,

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Speaker 2: getting into trouble with don Dale, and then feeling like

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Speaker 2: he was a part of something, creating new friend groups,

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Speaker 2: looking at what he wants to do for work, how

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Speaker 2: he can be a role model. So it's kind of

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Speaker 2: thinking outside of the box. In addition with that young person,

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Speaker 2: we did after our sessions looking at life skills.

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Speaker 1: YEP.

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Speaker 2: A lot of things that goes missing is that when

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Speaker 2: a young person goes into youth attention, they miss opportunities

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Speaker 2: to practice life. You look at a thirteen or fourteen

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Speaker 2: year old, they miss opportunities going to school, interacting with teachers,

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Speaker 2: interacting with people of authority in the shops. And right now,

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Speaker 2: in terms of policy, we see a lot of all right,

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Speaker 2: we're going to sort of, I guess, disengage these kids

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Speaker 2: from you know, whether it be a curfew or go

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Speaker 2: on a casual in a shopping center. Disengaging them from

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Speaker 2: opportunities to safely practice life. And then we have adults

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Speaker 2: who actually don't know how to engage.

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Speaker 1: So how do you juggle that? Because this is the real,

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Speaker 1: I think issue that we've gotten a lot of ways

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Speaker 1: in the end right now? Is it? In some cases,

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Speaker 1: you know, people are feeling really unsafe if you have

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Speaker 1: got you instead of committed some of the you know,

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Speaker 1: some of the issues have been really serious sort of

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Speaker 1: crimes and quite dangerous. So how do you juggle that

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Speaker 1: then in terms of making sure that you know that

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Speaker 1: they're they're learning and acknowledging that what they've done is

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Speaker 1: not the right thing to do, and that there has

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Speaker 1: been a victim to the crime, and then trying to

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Speaker 1: get them on that right track, and and trying to

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Speaker 1: get them sort of back in in those settings where

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Speaker 1: you know they may have friends that are that are

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Speaker 1: trying to maybe get them to do the wrong thing.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of the right word for it,

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Speaker 1: but like, how do you juggle that because it's it's

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Speaker 1: difficult to do.

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Speaker 2: That's where we've got strategic peer group referrals. So we

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Speaker 2: look at what are the biggest influencers and indicators for

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Speaker 2: I guess a young person to engage in some any

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Speaker 2: social behavior or seeing their well being quite low. So

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Speaker 2: by engaging with the whole friend group, there's a great

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Speaker 2: opportunity to build skills around them, how to be a

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Speaker 2: good brother to each other, and how to build those

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Speaker 2: life skills together. With that, you need basically the two

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Speaker 2: principles of working with youth, whether it be anywhere in

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Speaker 2: the world, to safe spaces and safe faces. So if

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Speaker 2: you have that consistently, that's a really positive way to

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Speaker 2: build I guess that respect and feel like they're a

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Speaker 2: part of something as part of their friend groups. Yes,

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Speaker 2: it's challenging, it's extremely challenging. Yeah, you know, we hold

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Speaker 2: after our sessions at night and it's you know, you

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Speaker 2: need a really talented group of people working with them their.

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Speaker 1: Mentor yeah, mentors.

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Speaker 3: The other opportunity we're missing is to empower our families

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Speaker 3: and parents in particular. Services are running around again, like

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Speaker 3: I said, in solos where a silo sorry, where you

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Speaker 3: know they'll serve as a young person but won't ever

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Speaker 3: speak to mum, you know. So it's bringing that authority

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Speaker 3: and I guess, you know a bit of power back

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Speaker 3: to mum. In the house or whoever the parents are

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Speaker 3: in the house to be able to make those decisions

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Speaker 3: rather than services stepping in to make some of those

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Speaker 3: decisions for people.

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Speaker 1: Because that's something that I've heard quite a bit, and

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Speaker 1: I know that there is a real misconception that, you know,

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Speaker 1: that there's parents not taking responsibility for their kids. And

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that in some cases that may well be true.

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Speaker 1: But in other cases you've got parents that or you know, mom, dad,

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Speaker 1: grandparents who really are trying to give it a go with,

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Speaker 1: you know, with their kids, and their kids are at

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Speaker 1: that age where they're not listening. They're listening more to

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Speaker 1: their peer group than what they are maybe to their mum,

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Speaker 1: and that then, you know, mum doesn't actually have the

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Speaker 1: support around her to be able to get things back

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Speaker 1: under control. Is that something you guys are finding absolutely?

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Speaker 2: And I guess another issue with the sector that takes

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Speaker 2: power away from families is that there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: profiteering from different organizations in this sector where the business

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Speaker 2: model of making money actually contradicts actually a mother making decisions.

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Speaker 2: For instance, you know, we had an instance of a

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Speaker 2: mother cooking dinner for her kids and then the kids

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Speaker 2: knew that they could call up another service and get

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Speaker 2: McDonald's and that was brought there. So's there's a figure

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Speaker 2: to that. So I guess it's that balance of how

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Speaker 2: do you balance the charitable side, the non for profits,

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Speaker 2: and I guess the for profit businesses working in a

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Speaker 2: space which is really difficult where you don't get outcomes

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Speaker 2: straight away and we can't be looking at bums on

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Speaker 2: seats outcomes with these youth, which is what a lot

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Speaker 2: of the profiteering organizations do have. We have to look

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Speaker 2: at that long term connections.

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Speaker 1: And what's actually working right.

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Speaker 2: And we've actually got a spreadsheet of about so the

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Speaker 2: youth justice system and the NTEE is actually made up

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Speaker 2: of about sixty to eighty mini systems, and so we

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Speaker 2: can't definitely not work on every single one of them.

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Speaker 2: If you look at it as a brick wall. We

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Speaker 2: can work on ten to fifteen of them and who

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Speaker 2: else can work on the others. And some are up

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Speaker 2: to the parents to do, some are up to services,

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Speaker 2: some are up to government to look at their procurement

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Speaker 2: and what they're doing there in legislation.

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Speaker 1: And so at this point it sounds like you guys working,

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Speaker 1: you're trying to work in the schools. You're doing stuff

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Speaker 1: after ours, you're doing stuff at night time. You're also

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Speaker 1: doing stuff out at don Dale. Is it like, are

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Speaker 1: you getting any funding from the government.

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Speaker 2: No, no, not so we're currently privately funded through three

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Speaker 2: amazing funders. We were approached for a smaller amount from government,

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Speaker 2: but the KPIs you know, I guess what they wanted

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Speaker 2: out of that wasn't enough for us to do an

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Speaker 2: actual quality and sustainable service. If we engage with a

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Speaker 2: young person, we need to stick with them at least

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Speaker 2: for a couple of years, and it goes back to

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Speaker 2: safe faces and safe spaces for us to get those

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Speaker 2: positive outcomes.

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Speaker 1: So we're too from here for brother to another because

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Speaker 1: from what you're telling me, it does sound like it's

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Speaker 1: really good work. You know, I think even I've got kids,

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Speaker 1: like my eldest is a teenager, right, so I know

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Speaker 1: how important it is for your teenagers to be around

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Speaker 1: people that have good habits, that are teaching them good things.

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Speaker 1: They've got good mental even with their own peers that

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Speaker 1: are older than them. You know, when they're around really

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Speaker 1: nice older kids that are that are playing the same sports,

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Speaker 1: that have got the same sort of goals as them.

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Speaker 1: It makes a huge difference. So it sounds to me

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Speaker 1: like some of the work that you're doing is really

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Speaker 1: great in terms of the kids having that like, how

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Speaker 1: do you expand on that and how do you sort

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Speaker 1: of you know, how do you continue to grow to

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Speaker 1: try and help more territory kids pology.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I guess dollars in the bank would help

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Speaker 3: obviously with that sort of situation to make sure we're

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Speaker 3: servicing our community, but also having I guess funded services

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Speaker 3: out there understand what's happening in the landscape rather than

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Speaker 3: just trying to meet a KPI all the time. It's

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Speaker 3: what's going on in the community, what do we need,

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Speaker 3: how do we target a service to, you know, to

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Speaker 3: address what's going on in our community rather than just

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Speaker 3: tick a box KPI services that are not working.

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Speaker 2: I think we're also finding that we need to move

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Speaker 2: more from our service delivery model to the advocacy and

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Speaker 2: talking to governments about what policy works, what legislation works

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Speaker 2: or doesn't. You know, the young people are telling us

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Speaker 2: directly things like the electronic monitoring devices actually contribute to

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Speaker 2: them getting into trouble, and this is we've got partnerships

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Speaker 2: across Queensland, and there's also been research done across Australia

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Speaker 2: to say it doesn't work.

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Speaker 1: So in what why is it getting them into sort

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Speaker 1: of further trouble.

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Speaker 2: What are they Well, it further disengages them from community

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Speaker 2: and further ostracizes as well. It builds out hate for

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Speaker 2: society or other people. And so basically it's one of

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Speaker 2: those things where you find another kid with a EMD

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Speaker 2: and you could stick together. But you can imagine being

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Speaker 2: uncomfortable going to school. You can imagine being uncomfortable playing footy,

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Speaker 2: going to the shops and things like that. So it

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Speaker 2: actually can compounds. It actually doesn't you know, to a

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Speaker 2: mind of a thirteen year old, particularly those when you're

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Speaker 2: a divergence, which we need to remember a lot of

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Speaker 2: the youth actually have some form of diagnosis, whether or

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Speaker 2: potential diagnosis that it doesn't It doesn't tick in their

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Speaker 2: head the same if I have a CMD, I can't

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Speaker 2: do this. It becomes I'm not accepted by society, and

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Speaker 2: when we're trying to get kids into school and connected

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Speaker 2: to community positively, it just doesn't work. And it's very

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Speaker 2: like the same as curfew. So we're looking at the

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Speaker 2: same disengagement model again. You want to give these young

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Speaker 2: people the best opportunity to practice life, to learn those skills.

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Speaker 1: I know, I know they'll be listeners thinking to themselves,

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Speaker 1: but what do we do. You know, if we're talking

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Speaker 1: about a kid that's breaking into homes or that's threatening

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Speaker 1: other kids, how are you going to monitor them if

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Speaker 1: they don't have you know, one of those ankle monitoring

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Speaker 1: bracelets on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think if we look at the stats,

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Speaker 2: we can see that rates have continued to increase and rise,

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Speaker 2: so there's actually no evidence to show that it's effective.

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Speaker 2: If anything, it's gone the other way. That's where we

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Speaker 2: work with the Good Data Institute, which is a body

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Speaker 2: from down in Victoria on data set and evaluating what

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Speaker 2: impact it is actually working. But it also comes back

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Speaker 2: to having after ours programs and after our spaces. We

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Speaker 2: need to remember that the Shack, which is the Youth

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Speaker 2: droppings and currently runs out of a school which a

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Speaker 2: lot of these youth are disengaged from now. I used

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Speaker 2: to actually run the shack when it was the Shed

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Speaker 2: in Casuarina, and we'd often have youth who are involved

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Speaker 2: in the justice system coming and going. It was the

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Speaker 2: only safe space they could go to a lot of

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Speaker 2: the times, and it worked. It worked really well.

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Speaker 1: Hey, before I let you both go, I mean, how

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Speaker 1: many kids are you currently working with? I guess in

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Speaker 1: some of those not so much in don Dale, I

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Speaker 1: suppose I'm assuming those numbers would fluctuate based on the

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Speaker 1: number of kids that are in there. But how many

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Speaker 1: young people are you working with in the other programs

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Speaker 1: that you're doing.

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Speaker 2: So we talked via family units because that's the only

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Speaker 2: way for us to be effective. So we've got twelve

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Speaker 2: family units who are on various stages of I guess

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Speaker 2: having the youth really entrenched in the system to that

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Speaker 2: preventative model, which the preventative model is obviously the best

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Speaker 2: time to work with you. So that can actually be

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Speaker 2: up to thirty clients that we look at because we

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Speaker 2: include how do you support the family members and siblings

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Speaker 2: as well? And before we go, I definitely want to

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Speaker 2: note that there's nothing for girls in the place, and

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Speaker 2: it's a huge gap.

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Speaker 3: What we know that works, Katie, is the interaction with

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Speaker 3: positive people that comes from your demographics. So what we're

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Speaker 3: talking about as young Aboriginal people that are being locked

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Speaker 3: up and what we know that works is them interacting

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Speaker 3: with positive Aboriginal people that are adults that are around

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Speaker 3: in their lives. So if we can get young people

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Speaker 3: more involved with Aboriginal people that are doing positive things

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Speaker 3: in the community, I think you're going to see a

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Speaker 3: change in community right now. The way the services are working,

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Speaker 3: like I said, the silos where kids are one service

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Speaker 3: and the parents in that same family unit or another service,

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Speaker 3: it's just not working, I reckon.

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Speaker 1: Look, I'm sure that we've probably got families out there

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Speaker 1: listening this morning that are thinking to themselves, how do

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Speaker 1: I get in contact with you guys? How do we

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Speaker 1: find out more about brother to another. We might even have,

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Speaker 1: you know, incredible Indigenous leaders listening this morning that are thinking,

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Speaker 1: how do we get in contact to try and support

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Speaker 1: you guys, or to potentially get involved in mentoring kids

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Speaker 1: in some way as well. What's the best way for

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Speaker 1: them to do it? Is there a website? What's the

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Speaker 1: best thing for them to do?

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Speaker 2: So we've got a website and then we've also got

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Speaker 2: an Instagram page. So we kind of just work off

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Speaker 2: those two, yep, and look in the end like this

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Speaker 2: is a you know, we're a territory charity developed by

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Speaker 2: all territory people, and we just want to help our community.

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Speaker 2: And look, we're very proud to be shown up every day.

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Speaker 1: So look, my hat goes off to both of you

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Speaker 1: because I think to myself, we talk a lot about

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Speaker 1: the issues, but you two are actually they're trying to

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Speaker 1: make a go of it, trying to help kids, and

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Speaker 1: you know, without a huge amount of funding by the

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Speaker 1: sounds of things. So thank you both so very much

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Speaker 1: for joining us this morning, and I really appreciate you time.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll talk to you again soon. Thank you.