Speaker 1: This podcast is for general information only and should not
Speaker 1: be taken as psychological advice. Listeners should consult with their
Speaker 1: healthcare professionals for specific medical advice. Well.
Speaker 2: Hello, I'm Amanda Kella.
Speaker 1: I'm Anita McGregor, and welcome to Double A Chattery. You're welcome, welcome.
Speaker 1: You know what we're going to talk about today, Amanda,
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about women. Well, I'm up for it.
Speaker 3: I'm up for it in a general sense.
Speaker 2: Or we've got to name all the women in the world.
Speaker 2: What's you think.
Speaker 1: Let once upon a time there was you know what
Speaker 1: I thought is I would love to go and start
Speaker 1: with some feedback on the podcast that we did about
Speaker 1: that amazing book that you brought in several episodes ago
Speaker 1: about How to Be a Woman.
Speaker 2: How to Be a Woman.
Speaker 3: It was written in nineteen sixty I think, yes, and
Speaker 3: it was painted a very different picture of the role
Speaker 3: of women.
Speaker 1: And it was you know, some of the comments I
Speaker 1: really loved. There was Aaron Whitcomb who talked about listening
Speaker 1: to the podcast and reflecting that her own mom had
Speaker 1: worked outside the home in the sixties and that later
Speaker 1: on she found out that other of her mates had
Speaker 1: kind of said, oh, no, this is this Your mom
Speaker 1: was a role model to me. And I was thinking
Speaker 1: about working in the sixties, about how much what the
Speaker 1: pressures would have been, what the judgment, the judgment, the
Speaker 1: lack of support, like they probably didn't have many daycares even,
Speaker 1: you know, and thinking maybe for nurses. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but it was really interesting to go to hear the
Speaker 1: responses of people who had listen to this podcast and
Speaker 1: kind of really connected with how much things have changed.
Speaker 3: And luckily, well have they In some parts they had
Speaker 3: and other parts not. One from Susan here said that
Speaker 3: when her mum went to get a Commonwealth Bank card,
Speaker 3: hermum applied for the bank card, she filled out all
Speaker 3: the forms, did all of that herself, and the bank said, well,
Speaker 3: we'll be contacting your husband because he had to he
Speaker 3: was given the card, and then he could give her
Speaker 3: the card even though she was earning her own money.
Speaker 1: You know. And those things they just they're the things
Speaker 1: that you remember that just kind of, you know, stab
Speaker 1: at you a little bit.
Speaker 3: So that's one generation ago. And as we said, the sixties,
Speaker 3: that's the cusp of women's liberation, and we think that
Speaker 3: everything was changing, but it took so long.
Speaker 1: There was a little message from Jackie as well, saying
Speaker 1: that when she was in Kindia in nineteen seventy, so
Speaker 1: again not that long ago, the teacher was handing out
Speaker 1: musical instruments and she wanted to play the drum, but
Speaker 1: she was told no, no, only boys play drums.
Speaker 2: Hollow Karen Carpenter.
Speaker 1: I know, like it's just it's it is amazed.
Speaker 3: Because that was more of an aggressive, physical, probably kind
Speaker 3: of musical instrument, and it wasn't, you know, it wasn't
Speaker 3: small and pretty enough for.
Speaker 1: A woman's womb might have moved around if she had engaged.
Speaker 2: In a woming behavior.
Speaker 1: But all of this, Amanda just again made me think
Speaker 1: about how, you know, how some things have really changed
Speaker 1: and again how some things really haven't. And it started
Speaker 1: I. I was listening to this manto for Pain. He's an
Speaker 1: American playwright and he makes alternative endings for children's books,
Speaker 1: and he was talking about this. Are you familiar with
Speaker 1: a children's book called The Giving Tree?
Speaker 3: I've heard of it, but I don't remember much about it.
Speaker 1: Well, it's it's basically about the relationship between a young
Speaker 1: boy as he grows up and this giving tree that
Speaker 1: at first the child just wants some shade, a place
Speaker 1: to stay, and then he wants apples, and then he wants,
Speaker 1: you know, a to build a boat. Can you give
Speaker 1: me some of your you know, lumber so I can
Speaker 1: build a boat. And then eventually this giving tree is
Speaker 1: left as a stump, Amanda, And the story ends with
Speaker 1: this boys and old man sitting on the stump, and
Speaker 1: the tree is happy.
Speaker 4: Oh, because he's been used up. Yeah, and and and
Speaker 4: so it's going to go the other way. No, it's
Speaker 4: it's basically supposed to be a story about a mother's
Speaker 4: love for a child that she just gives everything until
Speaker 4: there's nothing left of her. And there's no really clear
Speaker 4: message that the boy's ever happy with his boat and
Speaker 4: his house and everything else.
Speaker 2: And what makes you think the tree is the mother?
Speaker 2: How do you know that text?
Speaker 1: Well, I think that that this is well, I mean,
Speaker 1: this is tofer pains, you know, thought about it and
Speaker 1: other people's you know, interpretation of this giving tree story.
Speaker 1: And I love that Taufer does the alternative ending, which
Speaker 1: is the tree who said healthy boundaries And it made
Speaker 1: me think about there's a Canadian author and he wrote
Speaker 1: this book that I love, and it's called I Love
Speaker 1: You Forever, and it's about this mother who has a
Speaker 1: baby and she sings this lullaby. Well, I'm going to
Speaker 1: sing it, but we can cut this out if we.
Speaker 2: Really count it. I'm going to have to hear it
Speaker 2: in the right.
Speaker 1: You're gonna have to hear it right here, right now.
Speaker 2: I'm ready.
Speaker 1: But so the mother goes and sings to her young baby,
Speaker 1: I love you forever. I like you for always. As
Speaker 1: long as I'm living, my baby, you'll be and it
Speaker 1: goes on shock because you hit a note. I did
Speaker 1: hit a note a note, And it goes on and
Speaker 1: on about as this this child grows up and eventually
Speaker 1: this woman, she's an older woman, she breaks into his
Speaker 1: house so that she can rock him and rock him
Speaker 1: and sing this song. And it is a grown man,
Speaker 1: a grown man.
Speaker 2: And that it.
Speaker 1: Ends where the man rocks his mother and sings his
Speaker 1: song back to her, and it's this sweet song, but
Speaker 1: but toafer pain right rightfully says he's renamed this this
Speaker 1: my one of my favorite I love you forever as
Speaker 1: I love you forever, and I'll call before I come over.
Speaker 3: But so great, like that little written thing where she's
Speaker 3: still breastfeeding on his wedding day.
Speaker 2: Something about it.
Speaker 1: It's a little, a little, and it really made me
Speaker 1: think about this, this whole idea about how women's work
Speaker 1: is often the sense of not having boundaries and people pleasing.
Speaker 1: We often think about it. You know, I want to
Speaker 1: be liked, I want to be you know, it really
Speaker 1: is about us. It's really not about the people that
Speaker 1: we are trying to impress.
Speaker 3: It's interesting, isn't it that you know, you look at
Speaker 3: people think that nurses, why should they be paid well?
Speaker 2: Because they do it's a calling.
Speaker 3: Because women are caring by nature and they should be
Speaker 3: doing that stuff for free.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well what women wouldn't want to go and change
Speaker 1: somebody as stranger's bed pounds? Really and it's the The
Speaker 1: interesting part is that when we people please is that
Speaker 1: there's a lot of evidence says that we don't actually
Speaker 1: create emotional connection with others. That when we connect that
Speaker 1: it does like when we do stuff for others, it
Speaker 1: doesn't create a strong connection, it doesn't. It becomes this
Speaker 1: one way often a one way relationship where we give,
Speaker 1: they take.
Speaker 3: I'm a huge people pleaser and I hate being a
Speaker 3: people pleaser, and I'm trying so hard not to be yeah,
Speaker 3: and so you think you're doing it for all the
Speaker 3: right reasons because people go, geeh, weren't they nice?
Speaker 2: Yes, In fact, you're not forming a connection at all.
Speaker 1: No, No, and in fact that there are a lot
Speaker 1: of downsides to people pleasing into continuing continually saying yes.
Speaker 1: And there was this interview with this woman named Vanessa Bonds,
Speaker 1: who is a researcher out of Carnal, and she looks
Speaker 1: at women and their ability to say no. And what
Speaker 1: I loved about this because one of my favorite sentences
Speaker 1: has been like, noh is a complete sentence, and she goes, no,
Speaker 1: Actually she doesn't believe that, and I loved her logic
Speaker 1: about this is that when we say no, we often
Speaker 1: feel as though we have to give an explanation no
Speaker 1: because I just I don't have time, or no I
Speaker 1: can't you know, I can we're kidnapped. Yeah, absolutely, And
Speaker 1: but yes is actually a complete sentence. Yes, I will
Speaker 1: like I'll do that, and so you know what she
Speaker 1: pays attention to is that idea about how women often
Speaker 1: say yes in situations where they feel pressured to say yes,
Speaker 1: often in work situations, and they feel like they that
Speaker 1: it makes them feel light, which it often may, but
Speaker 1: again it creates this one one way relationship. And what
Speaker 1: I really liked is that this researcher was looking at
Speaker 1: who says yes in a meeting to like, who's going
Speaker 1: to take the minutes, who's going to go and get
Speaker 1: our lunch, who's going to go and organize a Christmas dinner,
Speaker 1: who's going to you know, the Christmas party? Who's going
Speaker 1: to do this? And often in this group of.
Speaker 2: People who are all of equal standings, who.
Speaker 1: Are all of equal standing, that there will be this
Speaker 1: like kind of like sidelong glances or you know table
Speaker 1: you know, eyes going down to the table because nobody
Speaker 1: wants to put up their hand and and in most
Speaker 1: cases it's women who eventually put up their hands. If
Speaker 1: it's a group of men, they kind of you know,
Speaker 1: grumble about it, and then probably somebody puts up their
Speaker 1: hand and then leaves the room and tries to ask
Speaker 1: some woman to do it. And when it's you know,
Speaker 1: they put somebody in charge of the room that and
Speaker 1: there's that who's going to do this, you know respect,
Speaker 1: you know this this thankless task. Often the manager will
Speaker 1: point at a woman and ask her to do.
Speaker 3: It and what's the eat. So this isn't secretarial stuff
Speaker 3: that someone's in a particular role. This is where you're
Speaker 3: all equal partners.
Speaker 1: They call this non promotable work, and they actually one
Speaker 1: of the statistics that I thought I found really really
Speaker 1: interesting is that women in general at a job do
Speaker 1: two hundred hours more of non promotable work when they
Speaker 1: are just as a general part of the work. So
Speaker 1: I might do all these things that you know, I
Speaker 1: put my hand up for. I think that people are
Speaker 1: going to like me. I think it's going to people
Speaker 1: are going to look, you know, well at what I'm doing.
Speaker 1: But here is my male counterpart who is actually engaging
Speaker 1: in the promotable work stuff. So they're the ones that
Speaker 1: are doing projects that have their name at the top
Speaker 1: of the you know, of the report. They're you know,
Speaker 1: it's not like and supported by you know, Anita, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's all this stuff that they are actually doing.
Speaker 1: They have two hundred extra hours a year on average
Speaker 1: to go and do that stuff.
Speaker 3: How interesting because just thinking of the things like organizing
Speaker 3: a birthday cake, taking a collection for someone who's leaving,
Speaker 3: arranging at farewell lunch.
Speaker 2: Have you ever seen a man do that in an
Speaker 2: office ever.
Speaker 3: Ever, I never ever have where if a guy a
Speaker 3: boss says I'm going to arrange a lunch, he'll point
Speaker 3: to a female, one of our producers or something it
Speaker 3: might be, and they'll do it. Yeah, we don't have
Speaker 3: office assistance, we don't have that stuff. We're all of
Speaker 3: equal standing, and yet a female will be called to
Speaker 3: do it.
Speaker 1: And they talk about the the things that get in
Speaker 1: the way of saying no. And you know, part of
Speaker 1: this in general for all of us is this idea
Speaker 1: that you know, I think we've talked about this before
Speaker 1: that you know, you kind of think, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: can you please come and give an hour's talk somewhere Amanda,
Speaker 1: And you go, sure, it's an hour of my time.
Speaker 1: But it's not ever an hour of your time, is it.
Speaker 1: It's you know, all the stuff that you have to
Speaker 1: do to go and get ready for it.
Speaker 2: It loves in my die for a few weeks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then there's you have to figure out how
Speaker 1: to get there. You have to probably have several conversations
Speaker 1: with people who want to guide about what the message
Speaker 1: is that they want.
Speaker 3: You know, I don't like public speaking, so it's not
Speaker 3: a natural fit.
Speaker 2: I'd be anxious about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So what they actually say is that if you're
Speaker 1: saying yes to an hour, you're probably saying yes to
Speaker 1: four hours. And actually, if you started putting that into
Speaker 1: your little dots in your diary, you'd be saying that
Speaker 1: you'd be probably saying no. The other piece is that
Speaker 1: the pressure. Often it's easy to say yes and you
Speaker 1: do it immediately, and it's harder to say no. So
Speaker 1: the idea can be the immediacy of the issue can
Speaker 1: lead you to say yes when you should be saying
Speaker 1: no to situations so to me example. So so it
Speaker 1: could be Amna again, I want you to do this
Speaker 1: talk and you go, yeah, sure, and instead of saying,
Speaker 1: can you give me a day to think about it?
Speaker 1: Because it's rarely it's like, you know, can you give
Speaker 1: a you know, can you give a limb right now?
Speaker 1: It's it's like you have to Actually, it's it's never
Speaker 1: that emergent. It's so it has to be if you
Speaker 1: most times you can say I'm going to take twenty
Speaker 1: four hours to think about this, and I think that
Speaker 1: when you actually have that time to sit back, you
Speaker 1: actually look at your diary, you actually look at the
Speaker 1: things that you have in place that you have to do,
Speaker 1: that you actually can actually think about a response that
Speaker 1: is probably maybe even like a no or closer to
Speaker 1: a no, or you know, I'll you know, can I
Speaker 1: do it? But can I do it this way rather
Speaker 1: than a yes to everything? And I've got to say, Amana,
Speaker 1: I did this just last week where I was having
Speaker 1: a meeting. It was a really amazing project and one
Speaker 1: of the collaborators said could you do this? And I
Speaker 1: went yes, And then I walked away from that conversation
Speaker 1: going I don't have time to just say yes to this.
Speaker 1: And I actually had to think about going back and
Speaker 1: saying I need I need more time and I need
Speaker 1: some help with this because I recognized I said yes
Speaker 1: way too quickly.
Speaker 2: And is that because you're a people pleaser?
Speaker 1: Yes? Absolutely, And I'm just really excited about this project
Speaker 1: and so I want to get it off the ground,
Speaker 1: and so I was thinking if I got involved, then
Speaker 1: it would be more likely to get off the ground.
Speaker 1: But it's probably that's not true. And you know that
Speaker 1: other people could actually be involved and it would probably
Speaker 1: make it for a better project as well. So taking
Speaker 1: time is really important and the other piece. Then I
Speaker 1: think that gets in the way of saying no, Amanda.
Speaker 1: That I often think about is that and I think
Speaker 1: about this in my closet, which is weird that if
Speaker 1: I'm going to add one more thing to my already
Speaker 1: full closet, is there something that I can take out
Speaker 1: of my closet At the same time, if I'm thinking
Speaker 1: about purchasing something, so thinking about if I'm going to
Speaker 1: say yes to something, is there something that I can
Speaker 1: say no to or is there something that I can
Speaker 1: take off of my plate? And you know, basically, often
Speaker 1: especially as mothers, will say yes, yes, yes, yes again
Speaker 1: as people pleasers, but if you actually had to think
Speaker 1: about the things that you were giving up, it's often
Speaker 1: like things like that you really value, like time with
Speaker 1: your children. And if you actually had to go and
Speaker 1: look at your children and say no, I've just said
Speaker 1: yes to this helping the band at the school organize
Speaker 1: for a trip, which means that I can't spend time
Speaker 1: with you my children. You know, if you actually had
Speaker 1: to have that, you know, say that to them, you'd
Speaker 1: probably see no.
Speaker 3: When the kids were younger, I said yes to a
Speaker 3: lot of charity stuff because I thought, you know, the
Speaker 3: local hospital would ask me to do things. I think,
Speaker 3: how can I say no? I've got two healthy children.
Speaker 3: But Saturday after Saturday after Saturday, I was watching them
Speaker 3: have night in front of the TV, eating pizza or everything.
Speaker 3: I want to do that. Yeah, I want to be
Speaker 3: at home tonight eating pizza. But I felt my civic
Speaker 3: duty was such was I'm better now it's saying my
Speaker 3: own mental health needs a night at home here.
Speaker 2: I'm much better at that. Yeah.
Speaker 3: But I've been guilty of all that stuff, and now
Speaker 3: by nature, I say no to everything unless I get
Speaker 3: cost Otherwise. I might have spoken about this before, But
Speaker 3: what the sales does when she says no to something,
Speaker 3: she puts a dot in her diary. So when that
Speaker 3: week comes up, she goes my healthy boundaries. I mean,
Speaker 3: I don't have to do that and that this week.
Speaker 1: And you get to just be joyful in that moment.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because you might say yes to something when your
Speaker 3: week looks empty into them, But of course by the
Speaker 3: time you get there, you've got a thousand other things
Speaker 3: as well.
Speaker 1: You know what. That one of the biggest things that
Speaker 1: I was this message that I took away from this,
Speaker 1: this whole research into this non promotable time. Is that
Speaker 1: I think I'm probably most guilty of this, Samanda, is
Speaker 1: that somebody asks you to do something and it kind
Speaker 1: of strokes your ego a little bit and you go, oh, well,
Speaker 1: you know, they think I'm amazing, they think I can go.
Speaker 2: Into space that yes, Katie Perry, of course I will.
Speaker 1: Of course I will. It's it is that that kind
Speaker 1: of that ego boost.
Speaker 2: It's nothing wrong with that time.
Speaker 1: I don't think that there is. But the reality is,
Speaker 1: and this was the thing that really struck me, is
Speaker 1: that I can still say no and be and I
Speaker 1: can still delight in the moment that they thought that
Speaker 1: I was somebody who was able to do this thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you can still win.
Speaker 1: I can still win. And really in those moments, I've
Speaker 1: never really considered that part of the equation. That it
Speaker 1: was just you know, and we see that always just
Speaker 1: an honor to be you know, to be asked. But
Speaker 1: I think that this is that statement and action which
Speaker 1: I really really liked.
Speaker 2: I saw a couple of things.
Speaker 3: This week that are touching on this too, and it's
Speaker 3: about unpaid work as an intern, and a couple of
Speaker 3: people are arking up on that. I just saw this
Speaker 3: during the week A woman I don't know who she's
Speaker 3: just came up on my feed. Said a couple of
Speaker 3: weeks ago, I shared a post about the major corporation
Speaker 3: that offered me exposure as compensation for my time as
Speaker 3: an artist working on one of their upcoming projects. I
Speaker 3: refused their offer and stood up for what I believe
Speaker 3: is my value as an artist. The post went viral,
Speaker 3: lots of people saw it, lots of people ended up
Speaker 3: following my art and she said, Then the unthinkable happened.
Speaker 3: Someone who designs movie sets reached out to me asked
Speaker 3: if I'd be comfortable licensing two of my artworks for
Speaker 3: an upcoming movie. I accepted, and I've just licensed to
Speaker 3: artworks to Netflix.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: And the same day I saw that, I saw this other.
Speaker 3: One, someone saying my forever mood. Unfortunately I can't take
Speaker 3: on unpaid work to help you make money at this time.
Speaker 2: Thanks for thinking of me.
Speaker 3: And then she said, I know this is a controversial viewpoint,
Speaker 3: but she says there are so many huge, profitable companies
Speaker 3: and brands, including plenty of female run brands, who expect
Speaker 3: other women to work for free, which they say is
Speaker 3: in the spirit of women, supporting women and empowering women,
Speaker 3: and it's utter bullshit. If we all stood together against
Speaker 3: huge corporations expecting this, then they'd sit up and take notice.
Speaker 1: And oh my god, and most organizations would crumble if
Speaker 1: it didn't, you know, if there weren't people putting their
Speaker 1: hands up to do a lot of these little unpaid bits.
Speaker 1: And the question is should they be really unpaid things,
Speaker 1: or should they act be part of a payment structure,
Speaker 1: or should they be things that are considered within you
Speaker 1: for promotion And because after.
Speaker 3: A while, when they say it's a good experience, you go, Okay,
Speaker 3: I'm sixty three years old.
Speaker 2: I've got enough experience now.
Speaker 1: It's it's so true. And but I was thinking about it,
Speaker 1: and I'm I think, over my life, I have been
Speaker 1: guilty of this where I have asked when I there's
Speaker 1: something that I need to ask to get done, it
Speaker 1: is often easier for me to go to another woman
Speaker 1: to ask her to help me, rather than asking a
Speaker 1: guy to do it.
Speaker 2: Interesting, So we're all guilty of it, yep.
Speaker 1: I think so. I think that I anticipate that there
Speaker 1: is going to be difficulty in getting a yes. I'm
Speaker 1: probably also guilty if I think about it that I
Speaker 1: think that sometimes I anticipate that a man might not
Speaker 1: do the job as well, maybe even like that, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like you know that that's saying
Speaker 1: about if you want something done, ask a busy woman,
Speaker 1: you know. And so I don't know is that you know,
Speaker 1: how do I?
Speaker 2: How do I? By doing that?
Speaker 3: Afy doing that, we perpetuate situation as well. Yeah, you
Speaker 3: may you finish here. I'm going to go up to
Speaker 3: the male CEO. I'm ask him to go and wash
Speaker 3: my CarH me, you don't see me next week?
Speaker 2: You know it hasn't gone so well.
Speaker 1: I want pictures after to show a great job his son?
Speaker 2: What him to do in a bikini.
Speaker 1: At least hot pants?
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: The other piece that really struck me.
Speaker 2: Is that.
Speaker 1: The and I hadn't thought about this either, is that
Speaker 1: it is so much easier to say no to a
Speaker 1: close friend than it is to an acquaintance. Because our
Speaker 1: close friends know us, they love us, it feels easier
Speaker 1: to say no, and so we tend to go and
Speaker 1: say yes to acquaintances when we are people pleasers that
Speaker 1: we want to we want to feel like because we
Speaker 1: don't know them. We want them to see us in
Speaker 1: a positive light.
Speaker 3: I've got a friend who explained it in very blunt terms.
Speaker 3: He said, he sees more of his dealist friends and
Speaker 3: he does his alist friends because his ailist friends get it.
Speaker 3: The dealer's friends are more persistent, and he thinks, I'll
Speaker 3: just say yes and get out of the way, whereas
Speaker 3: our good friends, you can kick that can down the
Speaker 3: road for two years and they'll still be your best friend.
Speaker 1: Isn't that Isn't that a frightening thought? Yeah, so, thinking
Speaker 1: about this, it really was kind of sobering recognition, a
Speaker 1: sobering reflection of how am I contributing to this? And
Speaker 1: thinking about how do I? How do I shift this?
Speaker 1: And especially because I work primarily with females and most
Speaker 1: of my students are females, most of my colleagues are females.
Speaker 1: How do I how do I address this?
Speaker 2: Do everything yourself, Anita, give it to a busy woman.
Speaker 1: That woman is you, that woman is me?
Speaker 2: And why don't you wash my car? Equal opportunity.
Speaker 1: You know what it's going to turn out like though,
Speaker 1: I'm going to leave the windows open and yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: going to start our glimmers today. I got Mike, Well,
Speaker 1: I got my cup filled a little bit. A couple
Speaker 1: of weekends ago, Emma and I went to U yoga
Speaker 1: and and meditation.
Speaker 2: Wekend that sounds hideous. Was there alcohol involved?
Speaker 1: There was no alcohol in my result, but you know
Speaker 1: there was amazing glorious vegetarian food, which you know, I
Speaker 1: could have done with a bit of protein, but it
Speaker 1: was okay. And like the food was really beautiful and
Speaker 1: you could really partake as much of it as you wanted.
Speaker 1: If you wanted to do the early yoga class you could.
Speaker 1: If you if you just wanted to sit around and
Speaker 1: read a book, you could and go for a walk
Speaker 1: you could. It was glorious. It was really absolutely what
Speaker 1: I needed to go and fill my cup.
Speaker 2: I just yeah, I go to cup with turbal Tea.
Speaker 1: I did, and you know, it was so lovely because
Speaker 1: it was it was cool to see that there were
Speaker 1: some people there who go regularly to do these things,
Speaker 1: and there was also some people that were kind of
Speaker 1: first time people and it was so interesting to watch
Speaker 1: them drink the kool aid, as it were, but to
Speaker 1: actually embrace the idea of a different way of kind
Speaker 1: of getting offline for a couple of days it was.
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed it, really needed it.
Speaker 3: Well, that's going to make my glimmers sound a little
Speaker 3: shallow either. But I have founded a new site and
Speaker 3: I'll show it to you, Anita.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 3: It's called Hot Guys Reading and it keeps popping up
Speaker 3: on my feed. The more I watch it, the more
Speaker 3: it pops up on my feet. I'm happy to be
Speaker 3: in that algorithm. And it's men who are photographed reading
Speaker 3: on buses, reading at airports.
Speaker 1: Or not reading it loud, Just hot guys with a
Speaker 1: book in their hands, like an actual book, actual book?
Speaker 2: Could it be more attracted?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: Actual book?
Speaker 1: Like that reading actual See where my head went. I
Speaker 1: was in Japan quite a few years ago, and I
Speaker 1: was on one of those trains in around the city
Speaker 1: of Tokyo, and there was a whole bunch of businessmen
Speaker 1: and they were reading books. But they were reading those
Speaker 1: maga but.
Speaker 3: Manga comics but a highly sexualized schoolgirl.
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, that's creepy, so this but
Speaker 1: this sounds good?
Speaker 3: Yes, And I don't see what they're reading, and I
Speaker 3: don't need to know what they're reading. Just a handsome
Speaker 3: man and an argol jumper or someone sitting in a
Speaker 3: nicely tailored jacket. You know they're not wearing hoodies and stuff.
Speaker 3: These are nice looking, polished men reading books. Who would
Speaker 3: have thought that that's all it would take to inflame me.
Speaker 3: I've moved, you know, I've had my fairy porn. I'm
Speaker 3: still making my way through the dragon porn. But the
Speaker 3: real world porn isn't bad.
Speaker 1: It's not bad at all. It is amazing how we
Speaker 1: can get to the point of going a man with
Speaker 1: a nicely tailored a man of reading a book does it?
Speaker 2: How sad are we? That's where we are. I'll share
Speaker 2: it with you.
Speaker 1: Please share, We see it