WEBVTT - Why Are Women Doing All The Unpromotable Work? 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.560 This podcast is for general information only and should not 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:06.960 be taken as psychological advice. Listeners should consult with their 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:26.720 healthcare professionals for specific medical advice. Well. 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:28.120 Hello, I'm Amanda Kella. 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:32.680 I'm Anita McGregor, and welcome to Double A Chattery. You're welcome, welcome. 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:34.720 You know what we're going to talk about today, Amanda, 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:40.360 We're going to talk about women. Well, I'm up for it. 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:42.680 I'm up for it in a general sense. 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:44.440 Or we've got to name all the women in the world. 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:46.360 What's you think. 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:49.920 Let once upon a time there was you know what 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:52.160 I thought is I would love to go and start 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:57.760 with some feedback on the podcast that we did about 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:02.240 that amazing book that you brought in several episodes ago 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:04.680 about How to Be a Woman. 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:05.440 How to Be a Woman. 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:08.760 It was written in nineteen sixty I think, yes, and 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:11.600 it was painted a very different picture of the role 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:12.280 of women. 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:14.800 And it was you know, some of the comments I 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:19.760 really loved. There was Aaron Whitcomb who talked about listening 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:24.400 to the podcast and reflecting that her own mom had 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:28.240 worked outside the home in the sixties and that later 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:30.960 on she found out that other of her mates had 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:33.360 kind of said, oh, no, this is this Your mom 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:35.800 was a role model to me. And I was thinking 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:41.000 about working in the sixties, about how much what the 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:44.520 pressures would have been, what the judgment, the judgment, the 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:49.160 lack of support, like they probably didn't have many daycares even, 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:51.960 you know, and thinking maybe for nurses. I don't know, 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:56.880 but it was really interesting to go to hear the 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:02.160 responses of people who had listen to this podcast and 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:06.200 kind of really connected with how much things have changed. 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:09.760 And luckily, well have they In some parts they had 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:13.760 and other parts not. One from Susan here said that 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:15.720 when her mum went to get a Commonwealth Bank card, 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:17.840 hermum applied for the bank card, she filled out all 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:20.240 the forms, did all of that herself, and the bank said, well, 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:23.320 we'll be contacting your husband because he had to he 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:25.160 was given the card, and then he could give her 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:27.080 the card even though she was earning her own money. 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:32.000 You know. And those things they just they're the things 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:35.920 that you remember that just kind of, you know, stab 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:36.919 at you a little bit. 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:40.040 So that's one generation ago. And as we said, the sixties, 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:43.680 that's the cusp of women's liberation, and we think that 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:46.320 everything was changing, but it took so long. 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:51.560 There was a little message from Jackie as well, saying 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:54.160 that when she was in Kindia in nineteen seventy, so 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:57.480 again not that long ago, the teacher was handing out 0:02:57.560 --> 0:03:00.200 musical instruments and she wanted to play the drum, but 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:02.840 she was told no, no, only boys play drums. 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:04.760 Hollow Karen Carpenter. 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:08.040 I know, like it's just it's it is amazed. 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:11.639 Because that was more of an aggressive, physical, probably kind 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:13.640 of musical instrument, and it wasn't, you know, it wasn't 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:14.600 small and pretty enough for. 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:20.840 A woman's womb might have moved around if she had engaged. 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:24.040 In a woming behavior. 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:41.000 But all of this, Amanda just again made me think 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.800 about how, you know, how some things have really changed 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:50.200 and again how some things really haven't. And it started 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:55.040 I. I was listening to this manto for Pain. He's an 0:03:55.040 --> 0:04:00.000 American playwright and he makes alternative endings for children's books, 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.480 and he was talking about this. Are you familiar with 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:05.720 a children's book called The Giving Tree? 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:09.200 I've heard of it, but I don't remember much about it. 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:16.159 Well, it's it's basically about the relationship between a young 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:20.400 boy as he grows up and this giving tree that 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:24.800 at first the child just wants some shade, a place 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:28.839 to stay, and then he wants apples, and then he wants, 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:31.839 you know, a to build a boat. Can you give 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:34.520 me some of your you know, lumber so I can 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:37.720 build a boat. And then eventually this giving tree is 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:42.279 left as a stump, Amanda, And the story ends with 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:45.520 this boys and old man sitting on the stump, and 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:47.080 the tree is happy. 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:52.840 Oh, because he's been used up. Yeah, and and and 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:55.080 so it's going to go the other way. No, it's 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:58.960 it's basically supposed to be a story about a mother's 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:02.919 love for a child that she just gives everything until 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:06.159 there's nothing left of her. And there's no really clear 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:09.520 message that the boy's ever happy with his boat and 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:10.840 his house and everything else. 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:12.920 And what makes you think the tree is the mother? 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:14.680 How do you know that text? 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:17.840 Well, I think that that this is well, I mean, 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:21.880 this is tofer pains, you know, thought about it and 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:25.880 other people's you know, interpretation of this giving tree story. 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:29.760 And I love that Taufer does the alternative ending, which 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:37.280 is the tree who said healthy boundaries And it made 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:43.320 me think about there's a Canadian author and he wrote 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:49.159 this book that I love, and it's called I Love 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:52.719 You Forever, and it's about this mother who has a 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:56.400 baby and she sings this lullaby. Well, I'm going to 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:58.640 sing it, but we can cut this out if we. 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:00.400 Really count it. I'm going to have to hear it 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:01.320 in the right. 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:03.159 You're gonna have to hear it right here, right now. 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:03.880 I'm ready. 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:07.440 But so the mother goes and sings to her young baby, 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:12.680 I love you forever. I like you for always. As 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:17.120 long as I'm living, my baby, you'll be and it 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:19.280 goes on shock because you hit a note. I did 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:21.880 hit a note a note, And it goes on and 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:24.960 on about as this this child grows up and eventually 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:27.719 this woman, she's an older woman, she breaks into his 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:29.600 house so that she can rock him and rock him 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:32.800 and sing this song. And it is a grown man, 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:33.599 a grown man. 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:34.080 And that it. 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:39.120 Ends where the man rocks his mother and sings his 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:41.920 song back to her, and it's this sweet song, but 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:49.240 but toafer pain right rightfully says he's renamed this this 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:51.960 my one of my favorite I love you forever as 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:54.600 I love you forever, and I'll call before I come over. 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:03.160 But so great, like that little written thing where she's 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:04.880 still breastfeeding on his wedding day. 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:06.800 Something about it. 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:10.920 It's a little, a little, and it really made me 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:17.640 think about this, this whole idea about how women's work 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:24.400 is often the sense of not having boundaries and people pleasing. 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:28.080 We often think about it. You know, I want to 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:30.400 be liked, I want to be you know, it really 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:34.040 is about us. It's really not about the people that 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:35.600 we are trying to impress. 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:37.200 It's interesting, isn't it that you know, you look at 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:40.160 people think that nurses, why should they be paid well? 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:41.880 Because they do it's a calling. 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:45.040 Because women are caring by nature and they should be 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:46.160 doing that stuff for free. 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:49.480 Yeah, well what women wouldn't want to go and change 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:54.000 somebody as stranger's bed pounds? Really and it's the The 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:57.400 interesting part is that when we people please is that 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:01.840 there's a lot of evidence says that we don't actually 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:06.280 create emotional connection with others. That when we connect that 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:08.400 it does like when we do stuff for others, it 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:11.960 doesn't create a strong connection, it doesn't. It becomes this 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:15.960 one way often a one way relationship where we give, 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:16.480 they take. 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:19.360 I'm a huge people pleaser and I hate being a 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:22.520 people pleaser, and I'm trying so hard not to be yeah, 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:25.040 and so you think you're doing it for all the 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.040 right reasons because people go, geeh, weren't they nice? 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:29.360 Yes, In fact, you're not forming a connection at all. 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:33.400 No, No, and in fact that there are a lot 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:38.320 of downsides to people pleasing into continuing continually saying yes. 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:43.160 And there was this interview with this woman named Vanessa Bonds, 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:46.520 who is a researcher out of Carnal, and she looks 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:49.920 at women and their ability to say no. And what 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:52.439 I loved about this because one of my favorite sentences 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:56.400 has been like, noh is a complete sentence, and she goes, no, 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.440 Actually she doesn't believe that, and I loved her logic 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:03.200 about this is that when we say no, we often 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:05.599 feel as though we have to give an explanation no 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:07.760 because I just I don't have time, or no I 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:11.640 can't you know, I can we're kidnapped. Yeah, absolutely, And 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:15.600 but yes is actually a complete sentence. Yes, I will 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:20.560 like I'll do that, and so you know what she 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:26.720 pays attention to is that idea about how women often 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:30.240 say yes in situations where they feel pressured to say yes, 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:35.600 often in work situations, and they feel like they that 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:38.960 it makes them feel light, which it often may, but 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:44.720 again it creates this one one way relationship. And what 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:48.440 I really liked is that this researcher was looking at 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:52.880 who says yes in a meeting to like, who's going 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:56.040 to take the minutes, who's going to go and get 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:59.760 our lunch, who's going to go and organize a Christmas dinner, 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:01.960 who's going to you know, the Christmas party? Who's going 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:04.640 to do this? And often in this group of. 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:06.440 People who are all of equal standings, who. 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:08.199 Are all of equal standing, that there will be this 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:12.360 like kind of like sidelong glances or you know table 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:15.560 you know, eyes going down to the table because nobody 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:19.360 wants to put up their hand and and in most 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:23.000 cases it's women who eventually put up their hands. If 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:26.160 it's a group of men, they kind of you know, 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:28.800 grumble about it, and then probably somebody puts up their 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:30.920 hand and then leaves the room and tries to ask 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:34.840 some woman to do it. And when it's you know, 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:39.559 they put somebody in charge of the room that and 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:42.160 there's that who's going to do this, you know respect, 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:46.600 you know this this thankless task. Often the manager will 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:48.360 point at a woman and ask her to do. 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:52.120 It and what's the eat. So this isn't secretarial stuff 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:54.480 that someone's in a particular role. This is where you're 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:55.439 all equal partners. 0:10:56.600 --> 0:11:02.040 They call this non promotable work, and they actually one 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:04.480 of the statistics that I thought I found really really 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:07.800 interesting is that women in general at a job do 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:14.000 two hundred hours more of non promotable work when they 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:16.600 are just as a general part of the work. So 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:19.840 I might do all these things that you know, I 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:21.880 put my hand up for. I think that people are 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:24.160 going to like me. I think it's going to people 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:27.280 are going to look, you know, well at what I'm doing. 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:31.920 But here is my male counterpart who is actually engaging 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:35.080 in the promotable work stuff. So they're the ones that 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:38.440 are doing projects that have their name at the top 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:41.320 of the you know, of the report. They're you know, 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:45.440 it's not like and supported by you know, Anita, you know, 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:48.320 it's it's all this stuff that they are actually doing. 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:51.520 They have two hundred extra hours a year on average 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:53.520 to go and do that stuff. 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:57.080 How interesting because just thinking of the things like organizing 0:11:57.080 --> 0:11:59.960 a birthday cake, taking a collection for someone who's leaving, 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:01.720 arranging at farewell lunch. 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:04.040 Have you ever seen a man do that in an 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:04.880 office ever. 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:08.880 Ever, I never ever have where if a guy a 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:11.280 boss says I'm going to arrange a lunch, he'll point 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:13.959 to a female, one of our producers or something it 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:17.600 might be, and they'll do it. Yeah, we don't have 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:20.840 office assistance, we don't have that stuff. We're all of 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:22.800 equal standing, and yet a female will be called to 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:23.080 do it. 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:39.360 And they talk about the the things that get in 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:43.920 the way of saying no. And you know, part of 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:47.240 this in general for all of us is this idea 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.120 that you know, I think we've talked about this before 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:53.040 that you know, you kind of think, oh, you know, 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:58.600 can you please come and give an hour's talk somewhere Amanda, 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:01.840 And you go, sure, it's an hour of my time. 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:05.679 But it's not ever an hour of your time, is it. 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:07.520 It's you know, all the stuff that you have to 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:09.680 do to go and get ready for it. 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:11.559 It loves in my die for a few weeks. 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:14.200 Yeah, and then there's you have to figure out how 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:17.840 to get there. You have to probably have several conversations 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:21.040 with people who want to guide about what the message 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:21.640 is that they want. 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:24.600 You know, I don't like public speaking, so it's not 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:25.319 a natural fit. 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:26.400 I'd be anxious about it. 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:29.520 Yeah, So what they actually say is that if you're 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:32.240 saying yes to an hour, you're probably saying yes to 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:37.760 four hours. And actually, if you started putting that into 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:41.040 your little dots in your diary, you'd be saying that 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:45.240 you'd be probably saying no. The other piece is that 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:48.800 the pressure. Often it's easy to say yes and you 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:53.840 do it immediately, and it's harder to say no. So 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:59.160 the idea can be the immediacy of the issue can 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:02.000 lead you to say yes when you should be saying 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:08.120 no to situations so to me example. So so it 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:11.040 could be Amna again, I want you to do this 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:15.480 talk and you go, yeah, sure, and instead of saying, 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:18.160 can you give me a day to think about it? 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:21.320 Because it's rarely it's like, you know, can you give 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:24.880 a you know, can you give a limb right now? 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.560 It's it's like you have to Actually, it's it's never 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:30.720 that emergent. It's so it has to be if you 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.560 most times you can say I'm going to take twenty 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:38.080 four hours to think about this, and I think that 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:40.240 when you actually have that time to sit back, you 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:43.240 actually look at your diary, you actually look at the 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:46.280 things that you have in place that you have to do, 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:50.920 that you actually can actually think about a response that 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:55.000 is probably maybe even like a no or closer to 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:58.880 a no, or you know, I'll you know, can I 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:00.920 do it? But can I do it this way rather 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:03.840 than a yes to everything? And I've got to say, Amana, 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:07.760 I did this just last week where I was having 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:12.960 a meeting. It was a really amazing project and one 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:15.200 of the collaborators said could you do this? And I 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:19.080 went yes, And then I walked away from that conversation 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:22.920 going I don't have time to just say yes to this. 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:27.400 And I actually had to think about going back and 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:30.400 saying I need I need more time and I need 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:34.080 some help with this because I recognized I said yes 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:34.920 way too quickly. 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:36.920 And is that because you're a people pleaser? 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:45.040 Yes? Absolutely, And I'm just really excited about this project 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:47.640 and so I want to get it off the ground, 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:51.400 and so I was thinking if I got involved, then 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:53.520 it would be more likely to get off the ground. 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:57.240 But it's probably that's not true. And you know that 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:01.480 other people could actually be involved and it would probably 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:06.680 make it for a better project as well. So taking 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:11.400 time is really important and the other piece. Then I 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:13.640 think that gets in the way of saying no, Amanda. 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.120 That I often think about is that and I think 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:18.840 about this in my closet, which is weird that if 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.840 I'm going to add one more thing to my already 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:24.880 full closet, is there something that I can take out 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:27.840 of my closet At the same time, if I'm thinking 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:31.360 about purchasing something, so thinking about if I'm going to 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:33.960 say yes to something, is there something that I can 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:36.120 say no to or is there something that I can 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:43.480 take off of my plate? And you know, basically, often 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:46.200 especially as mothers, will say yes, yes, yes, yes again 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.120 as people pleasers, but if you actually had to think 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:52.040 about the things that you were giving up, it's often 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:54.440 like things like that you really value, like time with 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:56.920 your children. And if you actually had to go and 0:16:56.960 --> 0:16:59.440 look at your children and say no, I've just said 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:04.919 yes to this helping the band at the school organize 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:08.119 for a trip, which means that I can't spend time 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:11.480 with you my children. You know, if you actually had 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:14.760 to have that, you know, say that to them, you'd 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:15.480 probably see no. 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:17.760 When the kids were younger, I said yes to a 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:19.879 lot of charity stuff because I thought, you know, the 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:21.639 local hospital would ask me to do things. I think, 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:23.520 how can I say no? I've got two healthy children. 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:27.880 But Saturday after Saturday after Saturday, I was watching them 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.080 have night in front of the TV, eating pizza or everything. 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:31.639 I want to do that. Yeah, I want to be 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:34.399 at home tonight eating pizza. But I felt my civic 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:37.480 duty was such was I'm better now it's saying my 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:41.840 own mental health needs a night at home here. 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:44.920 I'm much better at that. Yeah. 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.800 But I've been guilty of all that stuff, and now 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:49.600 by nature, I say no to everything unless I get 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:52.000 cost Otherwise. I might have spoken about this before, But 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:54.560 what the sales does when she says no to something, 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:57.199 she puts a dot in her diary. So when that 0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:00.280 week comes up, she goes my healthy boundaries. I mean, 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:02.560 I don't have to do that and that this week. 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:04.800 And you get to just be joyful in that moment. 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:07.240 Yeah, because you might say yes to something when your 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:08.960 week looks empty into them, But of course by the 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:10.520 time you get there, you've got a thousand other things 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:10.960 as well. 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:15.680 You know what. That one of the biggest things that 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:20.480 I was this message that I took away from this, 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:24.560 this whole research into this non promotable time. Is that 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:28.080 I think I'm probably most guilty of this, Samanda, is 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:32.240 that somebody asks you to do something and it kind 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:36.119 of strokes your ego a little bit and you go, oh, well, 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:39.080 you know, they think I'm amazing, they think I can go. 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:41.680 Into space that yes, Katie Perry, of course I will. 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:45.800 Of course I will. It's it is that that kind 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:47.080 of that ego boost. 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:48.480 It's nothing wrong with that time. 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:51.280 I don't think that there is. But the reality is, 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:53.879 and this was the thing that really struck me, is 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:57.800 that I can still say no and be and I 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:00.240 can still delight in the moment that they thought that 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:03.160 I was somebody who was able to do this thing. 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:05.440 Yeah, so you can still win. 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:10.400 I can still win. And really in those moments, I've 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:13.800 never really considered that part of the equation. That it 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:16.000 was just you know, and we see that always just 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.119 an honor to be you know, to be asked. But 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:24.240 I think that this is that statement and action which 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:25.400 I really really liked. 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:26.920 I saw a couple of things. 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:31.000 This week that are touching on this too, and it's 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:35.280 about unpaid work as an intern, and a couple of 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:37.199 people are arking up on that. I just saw this 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:39.240 during the week A woman I don't know who she's 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:41.439 just came up on my feed. Said a couple of 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:43.800 weeks ago, I shared a post about the major corporation 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:47.800 that offered me exposure as compensation for my time as 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:50.560 an artist working on one of their upcoming projects. I 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:52.520 refused their offer and stood up for what I believe 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:55.480 is my value as an artist. The post went viral, 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:57.199 lots of people saw it, lots of people ended up 0:19:57.200 --> 0:19:59.399 following my art and she said, Then the unthinkable happened. 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:02.440 Someone who designs movie sets reached out to me asked 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:04.560 if I'd be comfortable licensing two of my artworks for 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:07.359 an upcoming movie. I accepted, and I've just licensed to 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:08.480 artworks to Netflix. 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:09.600 Wow. 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:11.720 And the same day I saw that, I saw this other. 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:16.560 One, someone saying my forever mood. Unfortunately I can't take 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:18.680 on unpaid work to help you make money at this time. 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:19.679 Thanks for thinking of me. 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:23.600 And then she said, I know this is a controversial viewpoint, 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:26.240 but she says there are so many huge, profitable companies 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:30.200 and brands, including plenty of female run brands, who expect 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:33.879 other women to work for free, which they say is 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.639 in the spirit of women, supporting women and empowering women, 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:39.480 and it's utter bullshit. If we all stood together against 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:43.360 huge corporations expecting this, then they'd sit up and take notice. 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:48.880 And oh my god, and most organizations would crumble if 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:52.320 it didn't, you know, if there weren't people putting their 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:55.280 hands up to do a lot of these little unpaid bits. 0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:59.080 And the question is should they be really unpaid things, 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:03.120 or should they act be part of a payment structure, 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:07.040 or should they be things that are considered within you 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:09.680 for promotion And because after. 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:11.879 A while, when they say it's a good experience, you go, Okay, 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:13.359 I'm sixty three years old. 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:15.480 I've got enough experience now. 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:20.760 It's it's so true. And but I was thinking about it, 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:23.760 and I'm I think, over my life, I have been 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:27.640 guilty of this where I have asked when I there's 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:31.439 something that I need to ask to get done, it 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:35.600 is often easier for me to go to another woman 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:39.600 to ask her to help me, rather than asking a 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:40.320 guy to do it. 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:44.240 Interesting, So we're all guilty of it, yep. 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:48.360 I think so. I think that I anticipate that there 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:54.960 is going to be difficulty in getting a yes. I'm 0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:58.439 probably also guilty if I think about it that I 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:03.800 think that sometimes I anticipate that a man might not 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:07.320 do the job as well, maybe even like that, you 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:10.119 know what I mean? Like you know that that's saying 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:12.840 about if you want something done, ask a busy woman, 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:16.560