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Speaker 1: Today we're going to tell you how to help your

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Speaker 1: children to be more socially agile, more resilient, have higher

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Speaker 1: self esteem, be better problem solvers, in fact, be generally

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Speaker 1: better all round kids by doing one simple thing. It's

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Speaker 1: a very special doctor's desk episode of the Happy Families

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Speaker 1: podcast Real Parenting Solutions every day on Australia's most downloaded

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Speaker 1: parenting podcast. We are Justin and Kylie Coulson. Kylie, you

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Speaker 1: love it when we talk science. These are your favorite episodes,

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Speaker 1: And today we are going to get right into the

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Speaker 1: nitty gritty of an International Journal of Environmental Research and

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Speaker 1: Public Health twenty fifteen meta analysis systematic review about risky

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Speaker 1: outdoor play and how healthy our children will be.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's get straight into it. Then. What is risky play?

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Speaker 2: Because you start saying things like that and with an

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Speaker 2: intro like you gay, and I'm feeling a little bit

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Speaker 2: nervous about what it is you're actually asking me as

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Speaker 2: a parent to do.

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Speaker 3: Okay, am I supposed.

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Speaker 2: To hand my three year old's a box of matches

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Speaker 2: and leave her to figure out what happens when we

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Speaker 2: strike a match? Am I supposed to give my five

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Speaker 2: year old a sharp knife? And tell them to go

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Speaker 2: cut their own apple. Like, what is it you're asking

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Speaker 2: me to do? All right, let's leave my kid in

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Speaker 2: the park at seven and tell them to find their

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Speaker 2: way home.

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Speaker 1: Well, Lanoscanazi did it with a nine year old on

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Speaker 1: the subway in New York City. Let's distinguish between risky

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Speaker 1: play and genuinely hazardous or dangerous activity. Okay, So the

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Speaker 1: researchers who wrote this paper have done exactly that, which

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Speaker 1: is why I've suggested we start there. Dangerous or hazardous

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Speaker 1: activity is something where a child can't assess for themselves

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Speaker 1: what the risks are or there's no clear benefit to

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Speaker 1: them doing it.

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Speaker 3: So, for example, so as a.

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Speaker 2: Three year old can't can't as says, the risk of

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Speaker 2: crossing the road when a car's coming.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, probably, Like if you're playing in the park and

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Speaker 1: there's no fence and the kids could run across the road,

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Speaker 1: that would be hazardous.

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Speaker 3: That would be dangerous.

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Speaker 1: I mean that's just not sensible, right, So that's not

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Speaker 1: what I'm talking about when I say we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about risky play.

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Speaker 2: Risky play, But what about my eighteen month old who

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Speaker 2: wants to climb the stairs?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they start to figure that out, and there is

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Speaker 1: definitely a benefit to it as well. Okay, So there

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Speaker 1: are two things. They've got to be able to assess

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Speaker 1: the risk and there needs to be.

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Speaker 3: A level of benefit to it.

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Speaker 1: There is no benefit to letting the kids run around

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Speaker 1: and kick a footy at the age of three and

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Speaker 1: four right next to a busy highway. Okay, find somewhere

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Speaker 1: away from the road. That's an unnecessary In fact, it's

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Speaker 1: a negligent level of risk.

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Speaker 3: But your child learning.

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Speaker 1: To navigate stairs from that eighteen to twenty four month

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Speaker 1: age range, that's completely reasonable, totally normal. In fact, i'd

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Speaker 1: say maybe even a little bit younger, that depth perception

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Speaker 1: comes in and there is an element of risk, but

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Speaker 1: it's developmentally appropriate and there's a benefit to them experiencing

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Speaker 1: the risk because they learn how to navigate their environment effectively.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 1: Risky play in our context today means that the child

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Speaker 1: can identify that there is a risk, or there is

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Speaker 1: a challenge, or there is something hazardous, and they've got

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Speaker 1: the cognitive capacity to decide on their course of action.

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Speaker 1: All right, They're the two things that are critical here.

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Speaker 1: So you asked about matches before, I would say that

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Speaker 1: a three year old probably doesn't really have the cognitive

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Speaker 1: capacity to fully understand and comprehend what might happen. If

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Speaker 1: they're able to light that match in the first place,

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Speaker 1: they could burn the house down, they could set the

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Speaker 1: forest on fire. That would be hazardous. But a seven

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Speaker 1: year old they can, and I would say absolutely, let

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Speaker 1: your seven year old play with matches. Doesn't mean that

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Speaker 1: they're going to do it completely unsupervised. There needs to

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Speaker 1: be an appropriate level of monitoring, but you can step

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Speaker 1: away and let them have that fun. Some other examples

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Speaker 1: maybe using a knife to cut the orange or the apple,

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Speaker 1: or the chicken for dinner, that kind of thing. I

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Speaker 1: should note here using a blunt knife is far more

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Speaker 1: dangerous than using a very sharp knife. So with a

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Speaker 1: really sharp knife, yes, if it cuts you, it's going

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Speaker 1: to do some serious damage. But the reality is sharp

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Speaker 1: knives don't tend to cut people. They just cut the

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Speaker 1: thing they're supposed to be cutting. Whereas with a blunt

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Speaker 1: knife you have to push harder, it takes a lot

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Speaker 1: more force, it doesn't grip as well, and so the

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Speaker 1: knife might slip off, and that's when you're much more

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Speaker 1: likely to get cut or accidentally stab yourself for somebody

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Speaker 1: else with a blunt knife. So sharp knives are safer

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Speaker 1: than blunt knives.

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Speaker 3: Isn't it interesting?

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Speaker 2: Interesting?

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Speaker 3: I love that.

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Speaker 1: Other examples of risky play Kylie playing with dangerous tools, hammering, nailing,

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Speaker 1: getting the saw out, and chopping the tree down because

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Speaker 1: Dad can't climb up high enough in the tree, so

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Speaker 1: he sends the nine year up to do it instead.

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Speaker 1: You're not laughing at that. That was meant to be

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Speaker 1: a really funny joke.

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Speaker 2: Well, after you fell off the roof, I'm not.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, okay, fair enough, but well, things with height,

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Speaker 1: things with speed, things where you could slap it if

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Speaker 1: you fall over. They're the kinds of things that we're

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Speaker 1: talking about with risky play.

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Speaker 2: So our children who enjoy climbing on top of the

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Speaker 2: roof at night to watch the start.

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Speaker 1: Yes, great, great, great, great great great.

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Speaker 3: Let me tell you why this is a study.

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Speaker 2: So the overall four year old who decided she wanted

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Speaker 2: to walk to her friend's house that was eight kill

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Speaker 2: a meters away, that.

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Speaker 3: Was not okay.

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Speaker 1: And we're so glad that the policeman who picked her

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Speaker 1: up on the street that day was one.

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Speaker 3: Of our friends.

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Speaker 1: It's funny how like if you don't lock the front

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Speaker 1: door and you've got little kids, they can sneak out

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Speaker 1: and they will just try to go places. We learned

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Speaker 1: that lesson and it was a valuable lesson. Thank you

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Speaker 1: for reminding me. This is a synthesis of a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of studies. So I'm going to share one study

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Speaker 1: that they refer to. In this study, children in an

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Speaker 1: experimental group that were exposed to a fourteen week risky

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Speaker 1: play intervention. That is, they were encouraged to do rough

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Speaker 1: and tumble play, or play with dane elements or tools,

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Speaker 1: or speed or heights, or even be in a situation

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Speaker 1: where they could disappear from the supervision of adults or

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Speaker 1: get lost.

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Speaker 2: Kids who pray, so I should be applauded for my

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Speaker 2: four year old kids.

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Speaker 1: She's always been pretty resilient and a good problem solver.

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Speaker 1: Kids who were involved in a fourteen I can't even

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Speaker 1: speak now in a fourteen week risky play intervention improve

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Speaker 1: their risk detection, improve their competence, They increased their self esteem,

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Speaker 1: and they decreased their conflict sensitivity relative to their pre

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Speaker 1: intervention performance, as well as when they were compared to

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Speaker 1: a control group that didn't do the risky play intervention

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Speaker 1: at all. What this essentially says, and there's another study

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Speaker 1: across sectional study compared children with and without ready access

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Speaker 1: to unsupervised outdoor play opportunities and found more developed motor skills,

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Speaker 1: improved social behavior, greater independence, and a better capacity for

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Speaker 1: conflict resolution for the kids that were doing the risky play. Overall,

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Speaker 1: we end up with more self esteem. Kids just do

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Speaker 1: better when their parents let them do things that are

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Speaker 1: dangerous and, as I've been saying on the podcast, year

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Speaker 1: could potentially land them in hospital if things go wrong.

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Speaker 2: I remember in one of the opening scenes of Parental Guidance,

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Speaker 2: one of the parents walked outside to offer their children

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Speaker 2: some afternoon tea. Yeah, and here is her son. He

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Speaker 2: has literally scaled the street light outside their house and

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Speaker 2: he was at the very top and she just looked

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Speaker 2: up and she said, did you want guacamole for afternoon tea?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: He said, yeah, sure mom. It was like she didn't

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Speaker 2: even flinch.

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Speaker 1: Really happy kids, really well adjusted, doing really really well.

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Speaker 1: In fact, they ended up winning Parental Guidance. The parents

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Speaker 1: who let their kids literally climb the lamp poles in

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Speaker 1: the street after the break We're going to share more

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Speaker 1: about what this risky play looks like and some studies

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Speaker 1: that can help you feel better about letting the kids

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Speaker 1: go a little crazy. Okay, Kylie. There's a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of research around this. It's a provocative topic. We like

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Speaker 1: to bubble wrap and cotton wooler kids. We want them

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Speaker 1: to be safe. I want to share a couple of

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Speaker 1: studies that literally as I was reading through this paper

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Speaker 1: that we will linked to in the show notes. The

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Speaker 1: paper itself is called what is the Relationship between Risky

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Speaker 1: Outdoor Play and Health in Children? A Systematic Review. There's

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Speaker 1: about fifteen researchers that have worked on this thing, and

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Speaker 1: a couple of times, not only did I underline what

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Speaker 1: I was reading, but I also wrote the word wow

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Speaker 1: in the margins because I was so blown away by

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Speaker 1: what it showed. Let me highlight a couple of things.

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Speaker 1: First of all, risky play does involve some risk. It

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Speaker 1: is possible that your child may end up with a

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Speaker 1: fractured elbow humorous phibia TVA.

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Speaker 2: Or you will because you rescue them or attempt to

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Speaker 2: rescue them.

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Speaker 1: There is a chance that there'll be cuts and scratches

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Speaker 1: and bruises, somebody might injure themselves.

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Speaker 3: Okay, that's the very idea of it. Though, then did.

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Speaker 2: Injure in yourself become such a big deal.

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Speaker 1: I mean, when we were kids, it was so exciting

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Speaker 1: to walk in and see that somebody had a passed

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Speaker 1: on their arms.

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Speaker 2: Was like, wow, the superhero in the classroom. Everybody wanted

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Speaker 2: to know.

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Speaker 1: You one of our daughters has fallen off. Let's call

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Speaker 1: it monkey bars. It was a rail that she was

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Speaker 1: swinging on like a monkey bar. She broke her arm,

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Speaker 1: same daughter a few years later on a trapeze when

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Speaker 1: we were on a holiday in Bali and fractured her

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Speaker 1: arm there as well.

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Speaker 2: Oh, the story is way better than that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I'm mind full of time.

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Speaker 2: But why don't you feel like she was trying to

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Speaker 2: do the greatest Showman trapez act where you pass like

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Speaker 2: you go from your trapeze and you get caught by

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Speaker 2: someone else.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're upside down and you put your arms

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Speaker 1: out and you flip off yours and jump into the

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Speaker 1: arms of somebody else on the other trapeze.

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Speaker 2: Well, the other one just happened to be some muscular,

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Speaker 2: very very attractive young man that she was so excited

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Speaker 2: he was going to catch her, and in the flurry

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Speaker 2: of trying to do the trick, she forgot everything.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and she fractured her.

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Speaker 1: Worst thing is we didn't know it was broken, and

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Speaker 1: she got up there and tried it again, and fortunately

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Speaker 1: she didn't make the catch again, but I mean, it

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Speaker 1: could have been terrible. And then we flew home that

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Speaker 1: night not knowing that she had a broken arm. And

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Speaker 1: the following week she played netball not knowing she had

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Speaker 1: a broken arm. And after the netball game she was like,

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Speaker 1: my arm really hurts, and we're like, well, we've already

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Speaker 1: had an X ray, nothing had shown up, but this

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Speaker 1: time it did show up. Anyway, I digress. Great story.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you shed that extra detailed made us. Guys,

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Speaker 1: we've got a child who's walked away down the street

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Speaker 1: at four and now we've got a child who's flown

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Speaker 1: home from Bali with a broken arm and we didn't

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Speaker 1: know for a week. You're making this making this look

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Speaker 1: really bad. I want to share a couple of wow

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Speaker 1: moments from this particular paper, because this is a doctor's

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Speaker 1: desk episode and we do have to talk about the science. Okay, Kylie,

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Speaker 1: So here's what we know. Kids spend less time outdoors

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Speaker 1: and less time in unstructured play, and they have more

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Speaker 1: time in adult structured activities now than they ever have

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Speaker 1: in history because parents are keeping their kids inside and

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Speaker 1: keeping an eye on them. And what that's led to

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Speaker 1: is that access to risky outdoor play has diminished, and

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Speaker 1: as a result, kids are less interested in playing at playgrounds,

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Speaker 1: less interested in playing outside, and more oriented towards just

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Speaker 1: playing it safe and staying near their parents. This is

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Speaker 1: working against what's in the best interests of kids, but

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Speaker 1: it works really well for parents, right because we feel safe,

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Speaker 1: they're right here beside us. We can see what they're doing.

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Speaker 1: They're on the carpet in the living room, and the

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Speaker 1: screen is keeping them quiet.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but we're also more exhausted than we've ever been

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Speaker 2: because we have to. We feel like we have to

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Speaker 2: take care of our kids twenty four seven. We have

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Speaker 2: to be in their space. We don't have the cognitive

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Speaker 2: psychological space that we once had because our children are

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Speaker 2: always there. We're not allowing them to be their own

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Speaker 2: person and to experience life in a way that helps

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Speaker 2: them to grow and problem solve on their own.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting, like there's two things both working against

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Speaker 1: kids being outdoors and maybe more like you said, we're

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Speaker 1: so busy, but we're also really worried about them. And

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Speaker 1: then there's just the fact that inside is so convenient

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Speaker 1: and it's so enticing, so enticing. I think that it imitates,

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Speaker 1: it imitates what the real world provides. Not that's the

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Speaker 1: wrong word.

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Speaker 3: It supports.

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Speaker 1: It makes kids feel like their needs are being met

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Speaker 1: better than the like instant gratification, instant reward, cheap dopamine,

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Speaker 1: rather than going out and having to build that treehouse

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Speaker 1: or ride up that hill or do those hard things.

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Speaker 1: There's just one more thing that I really wanted to highlight.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I could go on and on. There's so

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Speaker 1: much in this study, but one thing in particular really

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Speaker 1: caught me, and that was this one study by a

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Speaker 1: researcher called Ruby Davies showed that fracture frequency and severity

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Speaker 1: is not related to the height of playground equipment. That is, fractures,

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Speaker 1: which count for forty two percent of playground fractures, we're

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Speaker 1: just as likely to occur at low heights as they

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Speaker 1: were above that mark. In fact, fifty four percent are

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Speaker 1: at low heights forty six percent are at high heights. Now,

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Speaker 1: it might just be that more kids are hanging around

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Speaker 1: at low levels, but most of the fractures are occurring at.

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Speaker 3: Low levels, not at high levels.

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Speaker 1: So we're trying to keep our kids low to the ground.

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Speaker 1: We're trying to keep them safe, but they can still

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Speaker 1: get hurt there, and they're finding the playgrounds boring and

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Speaker 1: they're looking for other things to do. Anyway, overall, this

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Speaker 1: is a really clear picture. Our kids need risky play.

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Speaker 1: It benefits them. Here's the conclusion. Specifically, play where children

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Speaker 1: can disappear or get lost and risky play supportive environments

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Speaker 1: are positively associated with physical activity and social health and

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Speaker 1: negative associated with sedentary behavior. Play at height not related

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Speaker 1: to fracture frequency or severity. Engaging in rough and tumble

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Speaker 1: play doesn't increase aggression, and it's associated with increased social

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Speaker 1: competence for boys and popular kids. However, the results are

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Speaker 1: a bit mixed for other kids, and there's also an

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Speaker 1: indication that risky play is supportive of playtime, social interactions, creativity,

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Speaker 1: and resilience.

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Speaker 3: Case closed.

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Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Rowland from

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Speaker 1: Bridge Media. If you'd like more information, and more resources

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Speaker 1: to make your family happier. Visit us at happy families

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Speaker 1: dot com dot au